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Old 03-23-2009, 05:59 AM   #1
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kdel HB Userkdel HB User
band 41igg and 41igm positive

Hello I posted in an earlier thread looking fo a llmd and got no reply so I guess no one knows of any docs in my area, but now I am asking if having these bands positive in my 6 year old who has an awful lot of sympoms - the worst right know being painful popping joints, started with his knees and has gotten much worse in the past few months. His knees are still the biggest problem however he is now having the same problem with his neck and spine. He has pain and what he describes as a "funny" feeling down the spine when he looks down - sometimes painful. We are going to an ortho today for the knees since this area has gotten way out of hand, I will 0f course also tell him about the whole spine thing but am wondering, if the bands being positive mean anything? I don't see why any should be positive if nothing is going on but this is what his pediatrician told me (and yes I am switching docs soon because she didn't even bother to tell me that, I only know because I requested copies of his blood work) Thanks to any one who replies.

 
Old 03-23-2009, 06:09 AM   #2
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Re: band 41igg and 41igm positive

Bump up your post if you can find it, post again, or search for other lyme message boards and keep trying- if you learn anything regarding lyme disease, when you stop trying is when you fail, it's those who keep at it who fight for treatment and to find the right doctor.

If it is a regular lab- ie-quest, lab corp, etc, the results themselves don't mean much, as when you read (a lab person) a lyme western blot, what constitutes positive and negative is if there's any reaction or 'band' coloring at the specific number coinciding with the test, some have a 'shading' and are not fully dark, most labs constitute that as just a negative- whereas a more sensitive lab like Igenix in California, (you can call them, request a lab test kit, goto a doctor and have them use and submit THAT kit to the Igenix lab, at which you will pay for the lyme western blot out of pocket) and get a better reading and truly see where you're at - test wise.

Lyme Disease, is a disease that is to be based on clinical diagnosis and symptoms, not soly by blood results as most all doctors do, who are NOT LLMDs. Keep your search, find a LLMD, and in the meantime get the Igenix lab kit for lyme western blot (you can do co-infections too while you're at it as your child is so young and no need for more than one venipuncture again as they cry through it ).

Band 41Kd is considered a cross reacting band- which means, it is present for all types of flagellen bacteria/germs. It is the antibody that shows up when there is ANY germ in the body that has a tail- ie- even people with poor dental hygine and gingivitis can have this band, it is also presumably the FIRST band to show up, or sometimes the ONLY band to show up in some people with Lyme Disease. It is not uncommon, but it is not lyme specific. Certain band numbers are specific for the outer surface protiens for the Lyme bacteria/spirokete, band 41 is not one of them so that makes it 'cross reacting'.

Your doctor did not tell you of the band, not because it's only the 41, as I truly can tell you I'd doubt the doctor even knows that much- in regards to Lyme and bands, but, because on the test it will just say below whats IMPORTANT, (ie what bands) "CDC NEGATIVE", regular doctors don't go farther than reading whats positive or whats negative, they don't notice what bands, why, or what they co-incide with, you need a lyme specialist, a LLMD.

It could still very well be that there is a problem with the spine, muscles, or something else going on, truly, you haveto keep your options open, but when dealing with Lyme Disease, unless you get evaluated by a LLMD, you're never going to get a full and true answer. There are also other tests LLMDs do besides a lyme western blot to assist in the diagnosis, help point to if there was a tick bite, other organisms adding to the problem, and so on (co infections, mycolpasm) and so on.


The first tier of the test is the IGM, or current immune response, the second part of the test is the IGG or 'exposure' longer standing time that response has been in the body. When you are checked to see if you've been vaccinated against certain types of things, they check your IGG exposure to see what shows up and if an exposure response is present.

Last edited by marshrose; 03-23-2009 at 06:27 AM.

 
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Old 03-23-2009, 06:30 AM   #3
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kdel HB Userkdel HB User
Re: band 41igg and 41igm positive

Hi and thank you for the info. It was a quest lab that did the test. Also I did remove one tick from my son last march, at the time he also had fifths disease so was covered in rashes. It is of course possible that he had other ticks I never found since we live in an area that has alot of ticks. we also have two dogs and I have removed crawling ticks from them and also have found quite a few engorged ticks in my home - these should not be from the dogs since they are on a tick medication and should die when they bite the dogs, so where did they come from? I have found them full and alive so they were feeding off someone. I will look inti Igenex. Any idea what that will cost? Do doctors generally agree to do this? I have no problem fighting for it - just wondering. I live in Orange county, ny and cannot find a llmd anywhere. Do you know if an infectious disease doc could help? I have a very nice one that I know.

 
Old 03-23-2009, 07:36 AM   #4
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Nexis HB User
Re: band 41igg and 41igm positive

Kdel,

Sent you private message, also remember that their are co-infections as well such as Rickettesia, Babesia, etc.

I had the horrible knee pains yet tested negative for Lyme yet positive for Babesia so make sure you have the doctor order the Master co-infection panel if you go with Igenex testing lab, if not, regardless don't let the doctor pass by the co-infections testing.


I know of someone who's dog was diagnosed with Lyme.

 
Old 03-23-2009, 07:38 AM   #5
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Nexis HB User
Re: band 41igg and 41igm positive

Having the band 41 positive means there's an active infection, it could be anything. To double confirm, ask the doctor if they did a PCR test for Lyme and any other co-infection.

Get your old copy of the past Lyme test results. Some doctors miss to interpret the tests since not many deal with Lyme and its co-infections on a daily basis.

Last edited by Nexis; 03-23-2009 at 07:39 AM.

 
Old 03-23-2009, 08:35 AM   #6
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marshrose HB User
Re: band 41igg and 41igm positive

I would certainly keep posting for a LLMD. SOME doctors will use IGENIX lab, and go by their results, but truly when treating lyme you want a lyme specialist, not a regular doctor, nor infections disease doctor- inf disease doctors rarely will even care if you only have a 41 on a regular lab result, they will say you are negative, flat out.

As for the tick product, as I was a vet tech, if the tick does not try to attach to your dog, it will not get infected with the oils that the medication works on, thus not die. It can piggy back in your house, fall off, and wind up on a human. It usually, after it bites your dog, falls off and dies 24 hrs later. Hope this helps.

Last edited by marshrose; 03-23-2009 at 08:36 AM.

 
Old 03-24-2009, 05:30 AM   #7
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kdel HB Userkdel HB User
Re: band 41igg and 41igm positive

Thanks all for the replies, and thanks Nexis for the info. We went to the ortho yesterday and he couldn't find any problem with my son's knees - told him to do some excersizes to make the thigh muscles stronger. I am glad there is no serious problem however, back to square one. Also if band 41 is indicative of an infection why didn't his doc tell me? Especially since when I brought my son to the doctor that day it wasn't for illness, just pain. I don't get it.

 
Old 03-24-2009, 05:55 AM   #8
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Nexis HB User
Re: band 41igg and 41igm positive

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdel View Post
Thanks all for the replies, and thanks Nexis for the info. We went to the ortho yesterday and he couldn't find any problem with my son's knees - told him to do some excersizes to make the thigh muscles stronger. I am glad there is no serious problem however, back to square one. Also if band 41 is indicative of an infection why didn't his doc tell me? Especially since when I brought my son to the doctor that day it wasn't for illness, just pain. I don't get it.

Good to hear there are no significant knee issues yet don't get your son to exert himself too much.

Well you would be surprised that unless you are dealing with someone alike here as a patient who have done extensive research or am LLMD who seriously knows their lab readings they would probably would not know that the 41 is indicative to some kind of an infection going on, yet some doctors also dismiss it as just some benign bug being fended off by the body.

And in general MOST doctors do not know how to deal with Lyme symptoms and the test results. I have gone through the same route as you square one yet just keep digging and digging and post back here for support or general advise.



Did your son get the PCR portion of the Lyme testing done?

Also get the copy from the quest testing lab. What other testing did your son receive? What doctor are you now seeing? A internist or an infectious doctor?

Last edited by Nexis; 03-24-2009 at 05:58 AM.

 
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