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Old 05-31-2008, 08:44 AM   #1
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Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

I have T at the lower end of the normal range and my doctor has put me on Androgel. I am 63 years old. I had most the symptoms of low T. I have read a lot on these boards about keeping E2 at the low end of the range and understand the reasons for that. However, I have found some large study reports that show a reason for E2 to be higher for men. I have reports of 2 large studies: one of 123 men with T below the minimum normal and one of 448 elderly men (age 68-96)

The first study showed that men on Androgel had increases in both T and E2 over the 3 year study. The E2 rose from the bottom of the normal range to the top within the first year. Bone mass density also rose. It was thought that the rise in bone mass was because of the higher E2, but could not be proven.

The second study of 448 men was a study of men with varying bone mass measurements, T levels and E2 levels. The numbers from the study led to the conclusion that, in elderly men, hypogonadism related to aging has little influence on bone mineral density, but estradiol levels have a strong and positive association with bone mineral density. It showed that men with E2 at the lower part of the normal range had bone mass densities similar to that for a man 10 years older who was at the higher part of the normal range.

So the question is: Is E2 in men really a bad thing? I guess that is tough to answer, as it can cause both good and bad effects, as it can in women also. I haven't seen this discussed here, so I thought I would post this for thought and comment.

 
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Old 05-31-2008, 12:26 PM   #2
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whytry View Post
I have T at the lower end of the normal range and my doctor has put me on Androgel. I am 63 years old. I had most the symptoms of low T. I have read a lot on these boards about keeping E2 at the low end of the range and understand the reasons for that. However, I have found some large study reports that show a reason for E2 to be higher for men. I have reports of 2 large studies: one of 123 men with T below the minimum normal and one of 448 elderly men (age 68-96)

The first study showed that men on Androgel had increases in both T and E2 over the 3 year study. The E2 rose from the bottom of the normal range to the top within the first year. Bone mass density also rose. It was thought that the rise in bone mass was because of the higher E2, but could not be proven.

The second study of 448 men was a study of men with varying bone mass measurements, T levels and E2 levels. The numbers from the study led to the conclusion that, in elderly men, hypogonadism related to aging has little influence on bone mineral density, but estradiol levels have a strong and positive association with bone mineral density. It showed that men with E2 at the lower part of the normal range had bone mass densities similar to that for a man 10 years older who was at the higher part of the normal range.

So the question is: Is E2 in men really a bad thing? I guess that is tough to answer, as it can cause both good and bad effects, as it can in women also. I haven't seen this discussed here, so I thought I would post this for thought and comment.
whytry,
This is definately worth some discussion!

I cannot at all address the bone mass issue, unfortunately however, through my experience, and that is really the only important conclusion, not tests and not studies by companies that always have their own interests and motives in mind, Estradiol is another one of those hormones where you can have either too much or too little.

Through the process of elimination (I am an experimentalist! ), I discovered that it is actually Estradiol and not DHT that caused my BPH. I take Allergy Research DIM Palmetto to combat it on both fronts but it has always been insufficient and "iffy" with just Saw Palmetto for 20 years!

Reading body builder sites, numerous online studies on Estradiol's effects on the prostate gland *and* on a man's libido, I came to the conclusion that an Estradiol reading of around 20-25 pg/ml is best. Anything less and a man's libido suffers. Anything more and BPH may flare up. That of course, is if a man has BPH issues. If not, it is obviouisly not relevant.

You also have to take into consideration that Estradiol, although reported to be the most important for men, is only the second (E2) of 2 Estrogen hormones that men carry so there could be some overlapping effects from the other 2 as well.

*However* I recently had a blood test where my total T was almost at the highest level in the range and my Estradiol was just 1 point from the highest level in the range but my Free T was very good and my BPH is basically non-existent. So, that kind of throws my theory out the window! There are some other ingredients in the DIM I take that could be having a beneficial effect.

All I worry about is these damn companies that all of a sudden stop making something that really works for me.

 
Old 05-31-2008, 03:03 PM   #3
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

Thanks for the reply AZMan. I have taken saw palmetto for years for mild BPH that I have also had for probably 10 years. I am 63 now. I have just started to read about DIM a couple of weeks ago and have ordered Source Naturals DIM - 100 mg - to take with my saw palmetto. The BPH has not gotten worse, but it is no better either. I have read that DIM can improve the symptoms of BPH and thought I would give it a try. I also started on Androgel 4 days ago and I thought I would take the DIM to prevent conversion to E2. I also take DHEA, with my doctor's approval. The more that I read, the more I realize that balancing hormones is a real tricky act. Not to mention that there is so much controversy about what the proper levels of what each hormone should be.

 
Old 05-31-2008, 05:17 PM   #4
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

I wish you could post the studies. You might be able to but I would ask the moderator if you can post the link. Some links are allowed.

Anyway, this goes beyond conventional thinking that low T is what causes the bone loss. Also the thought now is the aggressive prostate cancers are due to high E2, not due to testosterone. So there is a big risk if true on high E2. To me this makes perfect sense. Young men with high T (relatively) and low E2, do not get prostate cancer or BPH. Old men, with lower T and higher E2 get both.

 
Old 05-31-2008, 10:05 PM   #5
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayfarmer View Post
Young men with high T (relatively) and low E2, do not get prostate cancer or BPH. Old men, with lower T and higher E2 get both.
HF, what about men with high T and high E2?

 
Old 06-01-2008, 03:25 AM   #6
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

The Androgel report was a 2004 report in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism by Christina Wang, et al. I did not save the link, as I downloaded the entire pdf version of the report. The second study was published in the Annals of Internal Medicine in 2000 and was titled "Association of Hypogonadism and Estradiol Levels with Bone Mineral Density in Elderly Men from the Framingham Study".

I only brought these conclusions up for information and discussion, as I still intend to try to keep my E2 levels low with DIM because of all of the published bad effects of E2 in men (and women for that matter), such as the prostate cancer link. I also have mild BPH and I have read that some men's symptoms improved with taking DIM. The first report is very interesting, as it was a 3 year study and studied the effects of Androgel administration at 5, 7.5 and 10 gm on T, DHT, E2, SHBG, FSH and LH levels, sexual desire and performance, mood, lean and fat body mass, arm and leg strength, bone turnover markers and bone mass, HGB, HCT, lipid profile and PSA. It was very comprehensive.

Last edited by whytry; 06-01-2008 at 03:39 AM. Reason: Added info

 
Old 06-01-2008, 03:59 AM   #7
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

I just found another study, a 1999 Polish study of 236 males, aged 22-67. The study of men in Wroclaw, Poland tried to correlate bone mineral content (BMC) in various areas of the body with T, DHEAS and E2. They found no correlation with T, a significant correlation with DHEAS in some areas and a weaker correlation with E2 at all areas. Their conclusion was that DHEAS seems to heve the best correlation to BMC. Again, however, the finding was that there was no correlation of T and BMC. I am supplementing with DHEA and my level was a good level for a 25 year old man (450 mcg/dl) when tested last month.

 
Old 06-01-2008, 08:13 AM   #8
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whytry View Post
The Androgel report was a 2004 report in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism by Christina Wang, et al. I did not save the link, as I downloaded the entire pdf version of the report. The second study was published in the Annals of Internal Medicine in 2000 and was titled "Association of Hypogonadism and Estradiol Levels with Bone Mineral Density in Elderly Men from the Framingham Study".

I only brought these conclusions up for information and discussion, as I still intend to try to keep my E2 levels low with DIM because of all of the published bad effects of E2 in men (and women for that matter), such as the prostate cancer link. I also have mild BPH and I have read that some men's symptoms improved with taking DIM. The first report is very interesting, as it was a 3 year study and studied the effects of Androgel administration at 5, 7.5 and 10 gm on T, DHT, E2, SHBG, FSH and LH levels, sexual desire and performance, mood, lean and fat body mass, arm and leg strength, bone turnover markers and bone mass, HGB, HCT, lipid profile and PSA. It was very comprehensive.
whytry,
thanks a lot for these studies. Very enlightening stuff. I stopped taking Androgel due to marked increase in BPH, acne (that has taken some time to clear up) and the fact that, facing downsizing layoff, I did not want to get stuck on a treatment that I could not afford.

Nevertheless, it looks like there is a lot in this study that I could benefit from reading. thanks!

 
Old 06-01-2008, 08:15 AM   #9
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whytry View Post
I just found another study, a 1999 Polish study of 236 males, aged 22-67. The study of men in Wroclaw, Poland tried to correlate bone mineral content (BMC) in various areas of the body with T, DHEAS and E2. They found no correlation with T, a significant correlation with DHEAS in some areas and a weaker correlation with E2 at all areas. Their conclusion was that DHEAS seems to heve the best correlation to BMC. Again, however, the finding was that there was no correlation of T and BMC. I am supplementing with DHEA and my level was a good level for a 25 year old man (450 mcg/dl) when tested last month.
When I could afford to see an anti-aging doc, he advised a DHEA supplement. I have always seen a negative effect on BPH with it.

 
Old 06-01-2008, 08:25 AM   #10
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZMan07 View Post
When I could afford to see an anti-aging doc, he advised a DHEA supplement. I have always seen a negative effect on BPH with it.
I can understand how that would happen, as the DHEA will convert to T, estrone and E2. From what I have read, the DIM should prevent the conversion to E2. Were you also taking the DIM back when you were taking the DHEA? I do know that after I stated to take DHEA 5 months ago that my mood and sexual desire improved. My wife also noticed this. The effects got better as I slowly increased the dose each month. She told me that if my sex drive got any higher that she was going to hide my DHEA. She also takes it with some small increase in sex drive.

 
Old 06-01-2008, 09:25 AM   #11
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whytry View Post
I can understand how that would happen, as the DHEA will convert to T, estrone and E2. From what I have read, the DIM should prevent the conversion to E2. Were you also taking the DIM back when you were taking the DHEA? I do know that after I stated to take DHEA 5 months ago that my mood and sexual desire improved. My wife also noticed this. The effects got better as I slowly increased the dose each month. She told me that if my sex drive got any higher that she was going to hide my DHEA. She also takes it with some small increase in sex drive.
I think I was getting a little DIM when taking Paravol. That is what qued me in to rearching more and eventually settling on Allergy Research Dim Palmetto. But my E2 level went up to almost max when taking 1/2 dose. (I have to be honest here and admit that I was just a week or 2 off of Semenax that may have caused the enormous jump in total T from approx. 600 to mid 700's as well as the jump in E2). After I received the test results I increased to the recommended DIm Palmetto and will re-test both T's and E2 after I finish this bottle (did not re-start Semenax). If down, I will re-consider DHEA. What DHEA do you take?

Last edited by AZMan07; 06-01-2008 at 09:28 AM.

 
Old 06-01-2008, 10:10 AM   #12
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

I started using Natrol brand DHEA 25 mg tabs. I started with 1/2 of a tab and raised it by 1/2 tab each month until I got to 2 tabs - 1 morning and 1 evening. I then added 1 spray of Nature's Plus DHEA sublingual micronized spray - 1 spray in the morning. The spray is supposed to have at least 90% absorption, whereas the tabs and capsules are supposed to have between 25% and 50% absorption. This is according to articles by doctors who use DHEA treatment, so it is not just a marketing point. After using the combination for 2 weeks, I had my DHEAS and T tested and my DHEAS was at 450 mcg/dl and T was at 304. This is about the level of DHEA that is considered the middle of the excellent range and that what a 25 year old would have. I have now settled on 1 spray in the morning and 1 Natrol tab at dinner, as I don't want the DHEAS to get too high. I will have it retested in about 2 months.

The sublingual spray seemed to make the most significant difference in mood when I added it. My wife commented on it after I had been on it for the 2 weeks - that I seemed to be much happier for the past week or more. When the doc got the results, he told me to stop the DHEA and start Androgel because he said that my DHEAS was too high, as the normal level for a man in his 60s was 25 to 95. I was on vacation at the time and stopped all DHEA and in 3 days my mood was really low and I had lost almost all desire for sex. I made copies of some articles when we got back and gave them to my doc and his nurse called the next day and told me to restart the DHEA. It took about 4 days, but both mood and sex drive came back. My wife has observed all of this also.

 
Old 06-01-2008, 10:59 AM   #13
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whytry View Post
I started using Natrol brand DHEA 25 mg tabs. I started with 1/2 of a tab and raised it by 1/2 tab each month until I got to 2 tabs - 1 morning and 1 evening. I then added 1 spray of Nature's Plus DHEA sublingual micronized spray - 1 spray in the morning. The spray is supposed to have at least 90% absorption, whereas the tabs and capsules are supposed to have between 25% and 50% absorption. This is according to articles by doctors who use DHEA treatment, so it is not just a marketing point. After using the combination for 2 weeks, I had my DHEAS and T tested and my DHEAS was at 450 mcg/dl and T was at 304. This is about the level of DHEA that is considered the middle of the excellent range and that what a 25 year old would have. I have now settled on 1 spray in the morning and 1 Natrol tab at dinner, as I don't want the DHEAS to get too high. I will have it retested in about 2 months.

The sublingual spray seemed to make the most significant difference in mood when I added it. My wife commented on it after I had been on it for the 2 weeks - that I seemed to be much happier for the past week or more. When the doc got the results, he told me to stop the DHEA and start Androgel because he said that my DHEAS was too high, as the normal level for a man in his 60s was 25 to 95. I was on vacation at the time and stopped all DHEA and in 3 days my mood was really low and I had lost almost all desire for sex. I made copies of some articles when we got back and gave them to my doc and his nurse called the next day and told me to restart the DHEA. It took about 4 days, but both mood and sex drive came back. My wife has observed all of this also.
I wonder if the sublingual is less prone to converting to DHT.
Interesting that it works so fast! How does it affect your sleep?

 
Old 06-01-2008, 11:08 AM   #14
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

It doesn't seem to have changed my sleep pattern at all - either for the better or worse. I have always had a problem getting more than about 6-1/2 hours of sleep a night. Since I am retired now, I sometimes supplement that with a 1 hour nap in the afternoon. I do feel like a need more sleep, but I can't get back to sleep. This has been the same before I started to take DHEA and even before I started having signs of low T a little over a year ago. I do sleep soundly for the 6-1/2 hours, sometimes getting up once to pee if I drink too much late the night before. However, when I wake up to pee after 6 hours of sleep then I cannot get back to sleep, as I am pretty much wide awake. Sometimes I do sleep for 8 or more hours, but it is rare, like once every week or 2.

 
Old 06-01-2008, 11:15 AM   #15
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Re: Estradiol levels in men - good or bad?

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Originally Posted by whytry View Post
It doesn't seem to have changed my sleep pattern at all - either for the better or worse. I have always had a problem getting more than about 6-1/2 hours of sleep a night. Since I am retired now, I sometimes supplement that with a 1 hour nap in the afternoon. I do feel like a need more sleep, but I can't get back to sleep. This has been the same before I started to take DHEA and even before I started having signs of low T a little over a year ago. I do sleep soundly for the 6-1/2 hours, sometimes getting up once to pee if I drink too much late the night before. However, when I wake up to pee after 6 hours of sleep then I cannot get back to sleep, as I am pretty much wide awake. Sometimes I do sleep for 8 or more hours, but it is rare, like once every week or 2.
Ditto here!
But just since increasing my DIM dose; only 6-6 1/2. that after 7-7 1/2 for as long as I can remember.
If I still feel tired after I pee I just crawl back into bed and can usually get back to sleep in a few minutes and sleep at least another hour. Now, if I could just shut up those stinking mourning doves that start in at the crack of dawn!!!!

 
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