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Old 03-30-2011, 08:49 AM   #1
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Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Kicking this one back up to see if any of you guys like Lou are still around?

I myself just completed a Clomid challenge and had my blood draw this AM,.........now to wait a few days to see what happened!

The E2 issue is a result of T being aromatized into that form of estrogen.
We males need E2, just not a lot of it. Pretty much like women need a small amount of testosterone to be healthy also.

Most men feel best at about the 20 level. If you have a lower SHBG, you may want to be around 15 for E2, but I wouldn't go much lower than that.
Over 30 for the top figure, and you can expect issues with ED as well as several other problems.

High E2 in and of itself can cause low T levels, and many guys don't realize this. To keep it simple, basically the E2 occupies T receptor sites and tricks the brain into thinking it is T there. LH drops, and production of T from the testes slows down. In rare circumstances some lucky men have been able to use Arimidex or another AI to significantly increase their T levels with no other therapy needed. If you are a big beer drinker,.......you can pretty much figure that given enough time your T levels will drop and your E2 will go high.

Some of the compounds involved in the brewing of beer basically mimic phytoestrogens in the body. Add in the fact that alcohol in excess suppresses testosterone production for about 24 hours from your last brew, and it kind of becomes clear.
Another factor is big beer drinkers tend to have a lot of abdominal fat.
Fat,......especially in the abdomen, tends to result in high aromitization to E2.

Anyway, I am hoping for some good news on my end, and that maybe some of the original posters might check back in!

 
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:31 AM   #2
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc46 View Post
Kicking this one back up to see if any of you guys like Lou are still around?

I myself just completed a Clomid challenge and had my blood draw this AM,.........now to wait a few days to see what happened!

The E2 issue is a result of T being aromatized into that form of estrogen.
We males need E2, just not a lot of it. Pretty much like women need a small amount of testosterone to be healthy also.

Most men feel best at about the 20 level. If you have a lower SHBG, you may want to be around 15 for E2, but I wouldn't go much lower than that.
Over 30 for the top figure, and you can expect issues with ED as well as several other problems.

High E2 in and of itself can cause low T levels, and many guys don't realize this. To keep it simple, basically the E2 occupies T receptor sites and tricks the brain into thinking it is T there. LH drops, and production of T from the testes slows down. In rare circumstances some lucky men have been able to use Arimidex or another AI to significantly increase their T levels with no other therapy needed. If you are a big beer drinker,.......you can pretty much figure that given enough time your T levels will drop and your E2 will go high.

Some of the compounds involved in the brewing of beer basically mimic phytoestrogens in the body. Add in the fact that alcohol in excess suppresses testosterone production for about 24 hours from your last brew, and it kind of becomes clear.
Another factor is big beer drinkers tend to have a lot of abdominal fat.
Fat,......especially in the abdomen, tends to result in high aromitization to E2.

Anyway, I am hoping for some good news on my end, and that maybe some of the original posters might check back in!
Marc

I am still around....I tried the clomid thing but never got the restart and it definitely drove up my E levels as demonstrated by tests and feelling better but not having much libido and ED too.

I have since switched to compounded gel, pregestorone creme, some Anastrozole (low dose keep E down) and DHEA

T levels are great, energy strenght etc. are great. Libido and E are starting to improve as DHEA rises and E starts to hit sweet spot.

I can tell you clomid didn't restart me and didn't give me results that I needed.

Where you at?

 
Old 04-07-2011, 10:19 AM   #3
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by boscot View Post
Marc

I am still around....I tried the clomid thing but never got the restart and it definitely drove up my E levels as demonstrated by tests and feelling better but not having much libido and ED too.

I have since switched to compounded gel, pregestorone creme, some Anastrozole (low dose keep E down) and DHEA

T levels are great, energy strenght etc. are great. Libido and E are starting to improve as DHEA rises and E starts to hit sweet spot.

I can tell you clomid didn't restart me and didn't give me results that I needed.

Where you at?
Still do not have my results yet, as sometimes it takes the doc days to get around to reviewing BW.

I'm sure I will be seeing him next week sometime.

I expect to be starting TRT myself because I doubt the Clomid did anything for me. I really didn't feel any different at all. I basically tried the Clomid challenge in case I was one of the very few that manage to get a restart of the HPTA.

Your doc was using Clomid as an alternate form of TRT, and recently some new docs have signed onto this if it works. Dr. Crisler was one that didn't employ it, but he has recently jumped on board for certain guys.

I will most likely start with a compounded gel/cream as well, but I can go to shots if I want and do them myself subQ.
You may want to have Chrysin added to your compounded cream to help with the E2 and avoid the generic Arimidex possibly.

I had E2 levels of 52 at one point, and took a short run of compounded Arimidex. It brought me to 24 which was great.
My libido came back strong, but unfortunately my T levels did not do much.

Are you injecting HCG while on the cream to keep your testes functioning and to avoid atrophy?

I think my doc uses 250IU every 3 days when on transdermal TRT for men that wish to preserve natural output and for aesthetic purposes.

Very glad to hear that you are feeling better, and I hope it continues to improve. Stay in touch on the progress, and I will do the same!

Last edited by Marc46; 04-07-2011 at 10:52 AM.

 
Old 04-08-2011, 08:28 AM   #4
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

yeah....clomid help move levels some but it also caused E to rise so even though I felt better in some areas....may issue of libido/ED got worse not better.

arimdex actually drove my E down too low so I had to lessen dosge rate. other than that T levels are good and I feel great other than libido and ED....but if I get E in line I believe that will improve.

No HCG yet...but possible once I get levels fixed....there is also a thought of using low dosage clomid to achieve same goals....but don't want it to tank any libido ED progress....so if HCG will help with that along with other stuff I will opt for it.

Keep aprised of progress....long road back but feel I am making progress finally....but still a ways to go and after 3+ years I am very anxious.

Lou

 
Old 04-08-2011, 09:24 AM   #5
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by boscot View Post
yeah....clomid help move levels some but it also caused E to rise so even though I felt better in some areas....may issue of libido/ED got worse not better.

arimdex actually drove my E down too low so I had to lessen dosge rate. other than that T levels are good and I feel great other than libido and ED....but if I get E in line I believe that will improve.

No HCG yet...but possible once I get levels fixed....there is also a thought of using low dosage clomid to achieve same goals....but don't want it to tank any libido ED progress....so if HCG will help with that along with other stuff I will opt for it.

Keep aprised of progress....long road back but feel I am making progress finally....but still a ways to go and after 3+ years I am very anxious.

Lou
Lou,.......yea, E2 is a real PIA to be honest. As I am sure you know now, it's bad when too high, and bad when too low. It can cause the ED issues in either range.

While I don't really have big time ED issues I certainly have a huge loss in my libido. I can perform just like I used to,.......problem is I don't have the desire for sex. Feels more like a job that I would just as soon skip to be honest.

I have lost close to 20 pounds, and most of it is muscle. Probably some bone loss in there as well, but I can tell most is muscle. My strength and endurance is also way low compared to a couple years ago when this first started with me.

I only took the arimidex for a month at .5mg two times a week. It put mine in a good spot, and so far I have not needed anymore. I almost hate to see what the Clomid did to it though after hearing from you!

From what I have read, HCG is the best choice to preserve the testes and also keep E2 in line. I HAVE heard that if you do too much it can cause the same issue though. Some guys are taking 500IU three times or more per week, and that is too much IMHO.

I have finally reached the point that I am almost looking forward to starting TRT, as I feel like garbage really. A lot of times it feels like every bone, and joint in my body is aching, and after I do virtually anything, what muscle I have left hurts for days. Don't know if you got that or not, but it sucks.

I also get these weird 'hot spells' that happen about the same time every evening and last for hours. Doc says it is from low T and that it happened to him as well. I guess it's when my levels hit the lowest point of the day, and E2 tends to go highest at the same time.

I have tried to avoid doing the TRT because my doc says my testes still work, and I am secondary, but I am losing patience with all of the experimenting. My levels will virtually double all on their own for a reason that can't be figured out, and then fall once again to the lower 200 range.

After doing some further thinking, I believe the Clomid must have done something because while I didn't really feel any better, those hot flashes stopped after a few days of taking it. They came back within a few days of the half life ending from the Clomid cycle.

Guess I will find out next week what it did.
Take care!

 
Old 04-09-2011, 12:21 PM   #6
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc46 View Post
Lou,.......yea, E2 is a real PIA to be honest. As I am sure you know now, it's bad when too high, and bad when too low. It can cause the ED issues in either range.

While I don't really have big time ED issues I certainly have a huge loss in my libido. I can perform just like I used to,.......problem is I don't have the desire for sex. Feels more like a job that I would just as soon skip to be honest.

I have lost close to 20 pounds, and most of it is muscle. Probably some bone loss in there as well, but I can tell most is muscle. My strength and endurance is also way low compared to a couple years ago when this first started with me.

I only took the arimidex for a month at .5mg two times a week. It put mine in a good spot, and so far I have not needed anymore. I almost hate to see what the Clomid did to it though after hearing from you!

From what I have read, HCG is the best choice to preserve the testes and also keep E2 in line. I HAVE heard that if you do too much it can cause the same issue though. Some guys are taking 500IU three times or more per week, and that is too much IMHO.

I have finally reached the point that I am almost looking forward to starting TRT, as I feel like garbage really. A lot of times it feels like every bone, and joint in my body is aching, and after I do virtually anything, what muscle I have left hurts for days. Don't know if you got that or not, but it sucks.

I also get these weird 'hot spells' that happen about the same time every evening and last for hours. Doc says it is from low T and that it happened to him as well. I guess it's when my levels hit the lowest point of the day, and E2 tends to go highest at the same time.

I have tried to avoid doing the TRT because my doc says my testes still work, and I am secondary, but I am losing patience with all of the experimenting. My levels will virtually double all on their own for a reason that can't be figured out, and then fall once again to the lower 200 range.

After doing some further thinking, I believe the Clomid must have done something because while I didn't really feel any better, those hot flashes stopped after a few days of taking it. They came back within a few days of the half life ending from the Clomid cycle.

Guess I will find out next week what it did.
Take care!
Marc

hope it works out for you....TRT is working for me....muscle and energy are back....if E2 straightens out maybe libido and ED will wain.

I have mental libido, want to do it, but once I start I have loose desire to finish and what erection quality I have fades with it. Also orgasm and ejaculation is moderate to weak at best. That part is stressing me and killing my marriage....so if I can get that fixed I am good.

We will see....hope things work for you...I know the anxious issue. Its been 3+ years for me and I am worn out trying and wife is cycnicial that there is a fix.

Here's hoping for both of us.

Cheers

Lou

 
Old 04-09-2011, 01:56 PM   #7
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by boscot View Post
Marc

hope it works out for you....TRT is working for me....muscle and energy are back....if E2 straightens out maybe libido and ED will wain.

I have mental libido, want to do it, but once I start I have loose desire to finish and what erection quality I have fades with it. Also orgasm and ejaculation is moderate to weak at best. That part is stressing me and killing my marriage....so if I can get that fixed I am good.

We will see....hope things work for you...I know the anxious issue. Its been 3+ years for me and I am worn out trying and wife is cycnicial that there is a fix.

Here's hoping for both of us.

Cheers

Lou
Seems like when women get 'our' age they become hornier. We peak at a much earlier age.

We seem to have different issues concerning libido,.......you want to do it, and have issues. I on the other hand, have zero interest, but can complete the job pretty much like before.

I can only imagine the stress this is causing you, as it is me as well.
I will certainly post back again when I get my results and meet with my doc next week.

Really tired of feeling weak, and hurting all over. Seems the TRT has taken care of that part for you. I hope it does the same for me.

 
Old 04-10-2011, 06:20 PM   #8
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Marc

Yeah the TRT has made some big improvements for me physically just in last month or so....dramatic to say least. Workouts are great, muscle back, aches gone. Only thing is that libido/ED thing. Yeah wife likes it less often than when we were young but when she does she expects all star performance and when younger that was no issue....since this happened it's been near to impoosible. I get frustrated so does she and things spiral downward. Hard because we had such a physical relationship. Honestly rather be where you are and not want to because wanting to and can't sucks huge.

Let us know how things go.....

Cheers

Lou
impossible

 
Old 04-10-2011, 06:44 PM   #9
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

I read last week at allthingsmale (Dr Crisler's forum) that he is now offering his TRT patients a long term low dose Clomid treatment as opposed to TRT. The dosage would be 12.5mg (either ED or EOD I forget which). Dr Shippen is also offering it (what I inferred by reading Crisler's post about it). What this means is that both highly respected doctors in this field are setting a precedent for other doctors to follow. It could be that Clomid or something similar would be the future method-of-choice for treating people with secondary hypogonadism, and for whom Clomid does successfully raise their T levels while they're on it (regardless of their ability to maintain those levels off of the drug). Anyway, I thought you might be interested. Regardless, if you are secondary and on TRT right now, this may be your future, but it's best to keep the boys healthy with HCG if and when you get to start a more appropriate treatment.

 
Old 04-11-2011, 08:59 AM   #10
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave2112 View Post
I read last week at allthingsmale (Dr Crisler's forum) that he is now offering his TRT patients a long term low dose Clomid treatment as opposed to TRT. The dosage would be 12.5mg (either ED or EOD I forget which). Dr Shippen is also offering it (what I inferred by reading Crisler's post about it). What this means is that both highly respected doctors in this field are setting a precedent for other doctors to follow. It could be that Clomid or something similar would be the future method-of-choice for treating people with secondary hypogonadism, and for whom Clomid does successfully raise their T levels while they're on it (regardless of their ability to maintain those levels off of the drug). Anyway, I thought you might be interested. Regardless, if you are secondary and on TRT right now, this may be your future, but it's best to keep the boys healthy with HCG if and when you get to start a more appropriate treatment.
I am familiar as well with Crisler signing on to the Clomid long term. My doc seems to follow a lot of Shippen's protocols it seems.

Either way I feel very lucky to have found him in a middle sized area like where I live. Without this guy you either travel, or simply use the Testim/Androgel pharma stuff with nothing else checked or treated.

You mention Arimidex or HCG to the Urologists and Endo's around here,......they look at you like you just landed from another planet. My doc is actually an OB/GYN, but he is also an Endo, as well as a functional medicine doc. He has a huge setup here.

Only thing I am afraid of is the guy is not exactly young. I think he is late sixties, but it's hard to tell by his looks and the way he holds himself. Seems to have twice the energy I do!
If something happens to him, I will be SOL.

 
Old 04-12-2011, 05:35 PM   #11
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc46 View Post
I am familiar as well with Crisler signing on to the Clomid long term. My doc seems to follow a lot of Shippen's protocols it seems.

Either way I feel very lucky to have found him in a middle sized area like where I live. Without this guy you either travel, or simply use the Testim/Androgel pharma stuff with nothing else checked or treated.

You mention Arimidex or HCG to the Urologists and Endo's around here,......they look at you like you just landed from another planet. My doc is actually an OB/GYN, but he is also an Endo, as well as a functional medicine doc. He has a huge setup here.

Only thing I am afraid of is the guy is not exactly young. I think he is late sixties, but it's hard to tell by his looks and the way he holds himself. Seems to have twice the energy I do!


I am with Crisler....once levels stabilize I will most likely do the HCG or low dose clomid deal.

Shippen and Crisler chat often and compare....

Lou
If something happens to him, I will be SOL.

 
Old 04-19-2011, 08:31 AM   #12
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Well, I finally got with my doc today and got the bad news per se. I 'failed' the Clomid challenge I guess.

Total T - 356 / was 222
LH - 4.1 / was 3.0
FSH - 9.8 / was 6.7
E2 - 39 / was 24

Anyway, the small increase in T did make me feel a bit better for several days, but I did not meet the guidelines.
Now I have to do a 'post clomid challenge' with HCG to directly replace the LH signal.

I guess if my T rises significantly, it means I have a problem in my pituitary. If not the issue is my testes.
Doc said he would start TRT today if I wanted, but he likes to try EVERYTHING possible first, before starting a 'younger' male on TRT for life.

Been suffering with this for long enough now that a couple more weeks shouldn't kill me.

I had high hopes, but I guess it just didn't work. Oh well,.....on to the next and final step.

 
Old 04-25-2011, 08:12 AM   #13
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

sounds like me....clomid did raise my T levels some....even more than you....assuming I took 50mg EOD. But soon as I tapered so did results. My LH and FSH are much lower than yours indicating OK Testicle response but not enough pit signal.

Any way I am on Topical and things are getting better....E was too high then too Low...causing libido and ED issues. Seems to be settling out and hopefully they will rebound.

May add low dose clomid or HCG next once levels hit acceptable range.

Sorry to hear you response failed but not too surprised....seems only to work for young guys.

Lou

 
Old 05-02-2012, 02:37 PM   #14
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

Marc -

Shot in the dark here, but are you still on this board/checking this thread?

Your situation sounds a bit similar to mine (sadly the "sex as a job" comment these days with the wife, work out a lot yet lose muscle, etc) 5 weeks on Clomid after T readings over the last year of 200, and 250. yikes.

Can't say i feel any different on the Clomid. Just had blood work done yesterday, so i will be really curious to see what happens next.

Since this thread is a year old, what ended up happening with you?

 
Old 05-02-2012, 03:11 PM   #15
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Re: Clomid Treatment for low T - Update

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Originally Posted by starry1 View Post
Marc -

Shot in the dark here, but are you still on this board/checking this thread?

Your situation sounds a bit similar to mine (sadly the "sex as a job" comment these days with the wife, work out a lot yet lose muscle, etc) 5 weeks on Clomid after T readings over the last year of 200, and 250. yikes.

Can't say i feel any different on the Clomid. Just had blood work done yesterday, so i will be really curious to see what happens next.

Since this thread is a year old, what ended up happening with you?
Yep,.....I still get alerts to threads. This is the first in a long time.

Anyway, I continued the Clomiphene after having a talk with the doc. I asked him about my increase for the so called 'test' and told him about a number of articles I had read. Most said if the issue was the HPTA axis, that it might take months for things to improve.

I am still not on T of any form, and I typically am running between 400, and just shy of 500 depending on circumstances.

This is something you may want to take caution with though. My Urologist does not like at all that I am taking this drug, and says I am making myself a test subject.

All I can say is I feel better, I have more energy, and have gained muscle back. I am now at 193 pounds, up a significant amount in muscle.

Depending upon your age, your levels are way too low.
Mine are not high even now, but they are acceptable for me.

All I can say is if you are a younger guy, you do NOT want to live with those levels you have. Make your choice, one way or the other, and strive to get up to the range I'm at.

Best to you.

 
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