Kicking this one back up to see if any of you guys like Lou are still around?
I myself just completed a Clomid challenge and had my blood draw this AM,.........now to wait a few days to see what happened!
The E2 issue is a result of T being aromatized into that form of estrogen.
We males need E2, just not a lot of it. Pretty much like women need a small amount of testosterone to be healthy also.
Most men feel best at about the 20 level. If you have a lower SHBG, you may want to be around 15 for E2, but I wouldn't go much lower than that.
Over 30 for the top figure, and you can expect issues with ED as well as several other problems.
High E2 in and of itself can cause low T levels, and many guys don't realize this. To keep it simple, basically the E2 occupies T receptor sites and tricks the brain into thinking it is T there. LH drops, and production of T from the testes slows down. In rare circumstances some lucky men have been able to use Arimidex or another AI to significantly increase their T levels with no other therapy needed. If you are a big beer drinker,.......you can pretty much figure that given enough time your T levels will drop and your E2 will go high.
Some of the compounds involved in the brewing of beer basically mimic phytoestrogens in the body. Add in the fact that alcohol in excess suppresses testosterone production for about 24 hours from your last brew, and it kind of becomes clear.
Another factor is big beer drinkers tend to have a lot of abdominal fat.
Fat,......especially in the abdomen, tends to result in high aromitization to E2.
Anyway, I am hoping for some good news on my end, and that maybe some of the original posters might check back in!
Kicking this one back up to see if any of you guys like Lou are still around?
I myself just completed a Clomid challenge and had my blood draw this AM,.........now to wait a few days to see what happened!
The E2 issue is a result of T being aromatized into that form of estrogen.
We males need E2, just not a lot of it. Pretty much like women need a small amount of testosterone to be healthy also.
Most men feel best at about the 20 level. If you have a lower SHBG, you may want to be around 15 for E2, but I wouldn't go much lower than that.
Over 30 for the top figure, and you can expect issues with ED as well as several other problems.
High E2 in and of itself can cause low T levels, and many guys don't realize this. To keep it simple, basically the E2 occupies T receptor sites and tricks the brain into thinking it is T there. LH drops, and production of T from the testes slows down. In rare circumstances some lucky men have been able to use Arimidex or another AI to significantly increase their T levels with no other therapy needed. If you are a big beer drinker,.......you can pretty much figure that given enough time your T levels will drop and your E2 will go high.
Some of the compounds involved in the brewing of beer basically mimic phytoestrogens in the body. Add in the fact that alcohol in excess suppresses testosterone production for about 24 hours from your last brew, and it kind of becomes clear.
Another factor is big beer drinkers tend to have a lot of abdominal fat.
Fat,......especially in the abdomen, tends to result in high aromitization to E2.
Anyway, I am hoping for some good news on my end, and that maybe some of the original posters might check back in!
Marc
I am still around....I tried the clomid thing but never got the restart and it definitely drove up my E levels as demonstrated by tests and feelling better but not having much libido and ED too.
I have since switched to compounded gel, pregestorone creme, some Anastrozole (low dose keep E down) and DHEA
T levels are great, energy strenght etc. are great. Libido and E are starting to improve as DHEA rises and E starts to hit sweet spot.
I can tell you clomid didn't restart me and didn't give me results that I needed.
I am still around....I tried the clomid thing but never got the restart and it definitely drove up my E levels as demonstrated by tests and feelling better but not having much libido and ED too.
I have since switched to compounded gel, pregestorone creme, some Anastrozole (low dose keep E down) and DHEA
T levels are great, energy strenght etc. are great. Libido and E are starting to improve as DHEA rises and E starts to hit sweet spot.
I can tell you clomid didn't restart me and didn't give me results that I needed.
Where you at?
Still do not have my results yet, as sometimes it takes the doc days to get around to reviewing BW.
I'm sure I will be seeing him next week sometime.
I expect to be starting TRT myself because I doubt the Clomid did anything for me. I really didn't feel any different at all. I basically tried the Clomid challenge in case I was one of the very few that manage to get a restart of the HPTA.
Your doc was using Clomid as an alternate form of TRT, and recently some new docs have signed onto this if it works. Dr. Crisler was one that didn't employ it, but he has recently jumped on board for certain guys.
I will most likely start with a compounded gel/cream as well, but I can go to shots if I want and do them myself subQ.
You may want to have Chrysin added to your compounded cream to help with the E2 and avoid the generic Arimidex possibly.
I had E2 levels of 52 at one point, and took a short run of compounded Arimidex. It brought me to 24 which was great.
My libido came back strong, but unfortunately my T levels did not do much.
Are you injecting HCG while on the cream to keep your testes functioning and to avoid atrophy?
I think my doc uses 250IU every 3 days when on transdermal TRT for men that wish to preserve natural output and for aesthetic purposes.
Very glad to hear that you are feeling better, and I hope it continues to improve. Stay in touch on the progress, and I will do the same!
yeah....clomid help move levels some but it also caused E to rise so even though I felt better in some areas....may issue of libido/ED got worse not better.
arimdex actually drove my E down too low so I had to lessen dosge rate. other than that T levels are good and I feel great other than libido and ED....but if I get E in line I believe that will improve.
No HCG yet...but possible once I get levels fixed....there is also a thought of using low dosage clomid to achieve same goals....but don't want it to tank any libido ED progress....so if HCG will help with that along with other stuff I will opt for it.
Keep aprised of progress....long road back but feel I am making progress finally....but still a ways to go and after 3+ years I am very anxious.
yeah....clomid help move levels some but it also caused E to rise so even though I felt better in some areas....may issue of libido/ED got worse not better.
arimdex actually drove my E down too low so I had to lessen dosge rate. other than that T levels are good and I feel great other than libido and ED....but if I get E in line I believe that will improve.
No HCG yet...but possible once I get levels fixed....there is also a thought of using low dosage clomid to achieve same goals....but don't want it to tank any libido ED progress....so if HCG will help with that along with other stuff I will opt for it.
Keep aprised of progress....long road back but feel I am making progress finally....but still a ways to go and after 3+ years I am very anxious.
Lou
Lou,.......yea, E2 is a real PIA to be honest. As I am sure you know now, it's bad when too high, and bad when too low. It can cause the ED issues in either range.
While I don't really have big time ED issues I certainly have a huge loss in my libido. I can perform just like I used to,.......problem is I don't have the desire for sex. Feels more like a job that I would just as soon skip to be honest.
I have lost close to 20 pounds, and most of it is muscle. Probably some bone loss in there as well, but I can tell most is muscle. My strength and endurance is also way low compared to a couple years ago when this first started with me.
I only took the arimidex for a month at .5mg two times a week. It put mine in a good spot, and so far I have not needed anymore. I almost hate to see what the Clomid did to it though after hearing from you!
From what I have read, HCG is the best choice to preserve the testes and also keep E2 in line. I HAVE heard that if you do too much it can cause the same issue though. Some guys are taking 500IU three times or more per week, and that is too much IMHO.
I have finally reached the point that I am almost looking forward to starting TRT, as I feel like garbage really. A lot of times it feels like every bone, and joint in my body is aching, and after I do virtually anything, what muscle I have left hurts for days. Don't know if you got that or not, but it sucks.
I also get these weird 'hot spells' that happen about the same time every evening and last for hours. Doc says it is from low T and that it happened to him as well. I guess it's when my levels hit the lowest point of the day, and E2 tends to go highest at the same time.
I have tried to avoid doing the TRT because my doc says my testes still work, and I am secondary, but I am losing patience with all of the experimenting. My levels will virtually double all on their own for a reason that can't be figured out, and then fall once again to the lower 200 range.
After doing some further thinking, I believe the Clomid must have done something because while I didn't really feel any better, those hot flashes stopped after a few days of taking it. They came back within a few days of the half life ending from the Clomid cycle.
Guess I will find out next week what it did.
Take care!
Lou,.......yea, E2 is a real PIA to be honest. As I am sure you know now, it's bad when too high, and bad when too low. It can cause the ED issues in either range.
While I don't really have big time ED issues I certainly have a huge loss in my libido. I can perform just like I used to,.......problem is I don't have the desire for sex. Feels more like a job that I would just as soon skip to be honest.
I have lost close to 20 pounds, and most of it is muscle. Probably some bone loss in there as well, but I can tell most is muscle. My strength and endurance is also way low compared to a couple years ago when this first started with me.
I only took the arimidex for a month at .5mg two times a week. It put mine in a good spot, and so far I have not needed anymore. I almost hate to see what the Clomid did to it though after hearing from you!
From what I have read, HCG is the best choice to preserve the testes and also keep E2 in line. I HAVE heard that if you do too much it can cause the same issue though. Some guys are taking 500IU three times or more per week, and that is too much IMHO.
I have finally reached the point that I am almost looking forward to starting TRT, as I feel like garbage really. A lot of times it feels like every bone, and joint in my body is aching, and after I do virtually anything, what muscle I have left hurts for days. Don't know if you got that or not, but it sucks.
I also get these weird 'hot spells' that happen about the same time every evening and last for hours. Doc says it is from low T and that it happened to him as well. I guess it's when my levels hit the lowest point of the day, and E2 tends to go highest at the same time.
I have tried to avoid doing the TRT because my doc says my testes still work, and I am secondary, but I am losing patience with all of the experimenting. My levels will virtually double all on their own for a reason that can't be figured out, and then fall once again to the lower 200 range.
After doing some further thinking, I believe the Clomid must have done something because while I didn't really feel any better, those hot flashes stopped after a few days of taking it. They came back within a few days of the half life ending from the Clomid cycle.
Guess I will find out next week what it did.
Take care!
Marc
hope it works out for you....TRT is working for me....muscle and energy are back....if E2 straightens out maybe libido and ED will wain.
I have mental libido, want to do it, but once I start I have loose desire to finish and what erection quality I have fades with it. Also orgasm and ejaculation is moderate to weak at best. That part is stressing me and killing my marriage....so if I can get that fixed I am good.
We will see....hope things work for you...I know the anxious issue. Its been 3+ years for me and I am worn out trying and wife is cycnicial that there is a fix.
hope it works out for you....TRT is working for me....muscle and energy are back....if E2 straightens out maybe libido and ED will wain.
I have mental libido, want to do it, but once I start I have loose desire to finish and what erection quality I have fades with it. Also orgasm and ejaculation is moderate to weak at best. That part is stressing me and killing my marriage....so if I can get that fixed I am good.
We will see....hope things work for you...I know the anxious issue. Its been 3+ years for me and I am worn out trying and wife is cycnicial that there is a fix.
Here's hoping for both of us.
Cheers
Lou
Seems like when women get 'our' age they become hornier. We peak at a much earlier age.
We seem to have different issues concerning libido,.......you want to do it, and have issues. I on the other hand, have zero interest, but can complete the job pretty much like before.
I can only imagine the stress this is causing you, as it is me as well.
I will certainly post back again when I get my results and meet with my doc next week.
Really tired of feeling weak, and hurting all over. Seems the TRT has taken care of that part for you. I hope it does the same for me.
Yeah the TRT has made some big improvements for me physically just in last month or so....dramatic to say least. Workouts are great, muscle back, aches gone. Only thing is that libido/ED thing. Yeah wife likes it less often than when we were young but when she does she expects all star performance and when younger that was no issue....since this happened it's been near to impoosible. I get frustrated so does she and things spiral downward. Hard because we had such a physical relationship. Honestly rather be where you are and not want to because wanting to and can't sucks huge.
I read last week at allthingsmale (Dr Crisler's forum) that he is now offering his TRT patients a long term low dose Clomid treatment as opposed to TRT. The dosage would be 12.5mg (either ED or EOD I forget which). Dr Shippen is also offering it (what I inferred by reading Crisler's post about it). What this means is that both highly respected doctors in this field are setting a precedent for other doctors to follow. It could be that Clomid or something similar would be the future method-of-choice for treating people with secondary hypogonadism, and for whom Clomid does successfully raise their T levels while they're on it (regardless of their ability to maintain those levels off of the drug). Anyway, I thought you might be interested. Regardless, if you are secondary and on TRT right now, this may be your future, but it's best to keep the boys healthy with HCG if and when you get to start a more appropriate treatment.
I read last week at allthingsmale (Dr Crisler's forum) that he is now offering his TRT patients a long term low dose Clomid treatment as opposed to TRT. The dosage would be 12.5mg (either ED or EOD I forget which). Dr Shippen is also offering it (what I inferred by reading Crisler's post about it). What this means is that both highly respected doctors in this field are setting a precedent for other doctors to follow. It could be that Clomid or something similar would be the future method-of-choice for treating people with secondary hypogonadism, and for whom Clomid does successfully raise their T levels while they're on it (regardless of their ability to maintain those levels off of the drug). Anyway, I thought you might be interested. Regardless, if you are secondary and on TRT right now, this may be your future, but it's best to keep the boys healthy with HCG if and when you get to start a more appropriate treatment.
I am familiar as well with Crisler signing on to the Clomid long term. My doc seems to follow a lot of Shippen's protocols it seems.
Either way I feel very lucky to have found him in a middle sized area like where I live. Without this guy you either travel, or simply use the Testim/Androgel pharma stuff with nothing else checked or treated.
You mention Arimidex or HCG to the Urologists and Endo's around here,......they look at you like you just landed from another planet. My doc is actually an OB/GYN, but he is also an Endo, as well as a functional medicine doc. He has a huge setup here.
Only thing I am afraid of is the guy is not exactly young. I think he is late sixties, but it's hard to tell by his looks and the way he holds himself. Seems to have twice the energy I do!
If something happens to him, I will be SOL.
I am familiar as well with Crisler signing on to the Clomid long term. My doc seems to follow a lot of Shippen's protocols it seems.
Either way I feel very lucky to have found him in a middle sized area like where I live. Without this guy you either travel, or simply use the Testim/Androgel pharma stuff with nothing else checked or treated.
You mention Arimidex or HCG to the Urologists and Endo's around here,......they look at you like you just landed from another planet. My doc is actually an OB/GYN, but he is also an Endo, as well as a functional medicine doc. He has a huge setup here.
Only thing I am afraid of is the guy is not exactly young. I think he is late sixties, but it's hard to tell by his looks and the way he holds himself. Seems to have twice the energy I do!
I am with Crisler....once levels stabilize I will most likely do the HCG or low dose clomid deal.
Well, I finally got with my doc today and got the bad news per se. I 'failed' the Clomid challenge I guess.
Total T - 356 / was 222
LH - 4.1 / was 3.0
FSH - 9.8 / was 6.7
E2 - 39 / was 24
Anyway, the small increase in T did make me feel a bit better for several days, but I did not meet the guidelines.
Now I have to do a 'post clomid challenge' with HCG to directly replace the LH signal.
I guess if my T rises significantly, it means I have a problem in my pituitary. If not the issue is my testes.
Doc said he would start TRT today if I wanted, but he likes to try EVERYTHING possible first, before starting a 'younger' male on TRT for life.
Been suffering with this for long enough now that a couple more weeks shouldn't kill me.
I had high hopes, but I guess it just didn't work. Oh well,.....on to the next and final step.
sounds like me....clomid did raise my T levels some....even more than you....assuming I took 50mg EOD. But soon as I tapered so did results. My LH and FSH are much lower than yours indicating OK Testicle response but not enough pit signal.
Any way I am on Topical and things are getting better....E was too high then too Low...causing libido and ED issues. Seems to be settling out and hopefully they will rebound.
May add low dose clomid or HCG next once levels hit acceptable range.
Sorry to hear you response failed but not too surprised....seems only to work for young guys.
Shot in the dark here, but are you still on this board/checking this thread?
Your situation sounds a bit similar to mine (sadly the "sex as a job" comment these days with the wife, work out a lot yet lose muscle, etc) 5 weeks on Clomid after T readings over the last year of 200, and 250. yikes.
Can't say i feel any different on the Clomid. Just had blood work done yesterday, so i will be really curious to see what happens next.
Since this thread is a year old, what ended up happening with you?
Shot in the dark here, but are you still on this board/checking this thread?
Your situation sounds a bit similar to mine (sadly the "sex as a job" comment these days with the wife, work out a lot yet lose muscle, etc) 5 weeks on Clomid after T readings over the last year of 200, and 250. yikes.
Can't say i feel any different on the Clomid. Just had blood work done yesterday, so i will be really curious to see what happens next.
Since this thread is a year old, what ended up happening with you?
Yep,.....I still get alerts to threads. This is the first in a long time.
Anyway, I continued the Clomiphene after having a talk with the doc. I asked him about my increase for the so called 'test' and told him about a number of articles I had read. Most said if the issue was the HPTA axis, that it might take months for things to improve.
I am still not on T of any form, and I typically am running between 400, and just shy of 500 depending on circumstances.
This is something you may want to take caution with though. My Urologist does not like at all that I am taking this drug, and says I am making myself a test subject.
All I can say is I feel better, I have more energy, and have gained muscle back. I am now at 193 pounds, up a significant amount in muscle.
Depending upon your age, your levels are way too low.
Mine are not high even now, but they are acceptable for me.
All I can say is if you are a younger guy, you do NOT want to live with those levels you have. Make your choice, one way or the other, and strive to get up to the range I'm at.
thanks so much for the reply. Yes, way too low. And get this - ONE YEAR ago, i had a reading from my primary care of 194. And he said "yeah, normal. Lowish normal, but fine." How do you like that? I really didn't know any better, and sort of accepted it. But slowly, i learned just how wrong he was. It took until January of this year to get to an endo for more knowledge and another test. That came back 270. So yes, not good at all.
He seemed a bit slow and clueless, so in March i finally got to a T friendly/knowledgeable urologist. He did my levels, and got me on Clomid. 50mg every other day.
To top it off, my wife and i had been trying to conceive for like 10 months (a bit hard when you don't try enough because of low T mood problems, but that's another story . So, no such luck and the same urologist diagnosed a varicocele, which as you know can really mess with sperm quality. A sperm analysis confirmed. So, two weeks ago, the same uro operated on me (he's does it all!). Hoping that fixes my fertility issue. No guarantees. Further, i'm convinced that varicoceles mess with T levels. In fact the urologist said many many times he sees a jump in T of at least 100 points with the repair.
You seem really knowledgeable - i don't want to bother you, but here were my last levels.
Testosterone: 275
FSH: 2.6 (scale 1.5 - 12.4)
LH: 5.2 (scale 1.7 - 8.6)
We'll see where i am next week. But would love to be fortified for meeting with uro.
you said: "Most said if the issue was the HPTA axis, that it might take months for things to improve." sorry for the ignorance - what's HPTA (i'm really still learning about this stuff).
Interesting that your uro doesn't like you being on it. Who gave you the script - an endo?
thanks so much for the reply. Yes, way too low. And get this - ONE YEAR ago, i had a reading from my primary care of 194. And he said "yeah, normal. Lowish normal, but fine." How do you like that? I really didn't know any better, and sort of accepted it. But slowly, i learned just how wrong he was. It took until January of this year to get to an endo for more knowledge and another test. That came back 270. So yes, not good at all.
He seemed a bit slow and clueless, so in March i finally got to a T friendly/knowledgeable urologist. He did my levels, and got me on Clomid. 50mg every other day.
To top it off, my wife and i had been trying to conceive for like 10 months (a bit hard when you don't try enough because of low T mood problems, but that's another story . So, no such luck and the same urologist diagnosed a varicocele, which as you know can really mess with sperm quality. A sperm analysis confirmed. So, two weeks ago, the same uro operated on me (he's does it all!). Hoping that fixes my fertility issue. No guarantees. Further, i'm convinced that varicoceles mess with T levels. In fact the urologist said many many times he sees a jump in T of at least 100 points with the repair.
You seem really knowledgeable - i don't want to bother you, but here were my last levels.
Testosterone: 275
FSH: 2.6 (scale 1.5 - 12.4)
LH: 5.2 (scale 1.7 - 8.6)
We'll see where i am next week. But would love to be fortified for meeting with uro.
you said: "Most said if the issue was the HPTA axis, that it might take months for things to improve." sorry for the ignorance - what's HPTA (i'm really still learning about this stuff).
Interesting that your uro doesn't like you being on it. Who gave you the script - an endo?
I am far from an expert, but I will tell you what I have been told, and learned if you can call it that.
OK,.....first off you can be primary, secondary, or a combo.
Primary hypogonadism means your leydig cells in your testes do not work properly any longer. In other words they can't make T no matter the amount of stimulation.
Secondary means that your testes still function, but you have an issue with the 'signaling' hormones that tell your testes to make T. The HPTA axis is basically an acronym for the hypothalamus and all of it's connections in the brain. Google HPTA shutdown to do some research if you wish.
Your pituitary is what releases LH and that is the main signal for the testes to produce. FSH is more related to sperm production from what I have been told.
Basically the HPTA monitors the levels of T in the body,.....if it's low, it signals the pituitary to release LH to drive the testes. That's basically how it works in a normal healthy male.
If you are secondary the problem might be in the HPTA,......especially if you have suffered any severe blows to the head, as in a concussion for instance.
If that is the case, your pituitary doesn't receive the signal to release LH.
The other form of secondary per se, is a functioning HPTA, but a malfunctioning pituitary gland. For people such as this HCG injections are used to directly replace the LH signal.
Clomid is what is used to try and 'jumpstart' the hypothalamus so to speak.
The short term trial, does not always work though. This is what got me to reading more, and seeing REAL articles that related to it possibly being restored over a longer period of time. Since I DID get a jump from the Clomid challenge, I asked for a longer run, as in 2 months.
I have a 'functional medicine' doc that is the one doing the prescribing. My urologist is one of the old school types in that he only believes in using Testim, or Androgel.
Anyway,......after two months of doing 50mg EOD my T went up more than the short challenge. At that point he cut me to 25mg EOD, and I have been on it ever since. My insurance won't cover the pills, but the generic is cheap enough.
OK, on to you and your readings.
I believe you may be just like I am, which is a combination of primary, and secondary. My testes still have capacity, but not for high levels as in 900 to 1100. Many men feel just fine between 400, and 500.
First indication I get from your results is your FSH is low, and probably resulting in some of your 'infertility' issues. Your LH is roughly midrange which would be perfect IF your total T was normal for your age. At your T levels, your LH should be screaming high,.....maybe even over range if you were only primary.
It tells me that your HPTA, or your pituitary is not functioning correctly.
My FSH was pretty much normal, but went through the roof with Clomid. Also like you, I had an LH that was in range for a person with a normal T level,......I don't remember exactly what it was. Maybe I posted my labs on this thread earlier. Also I don't have the time to dig out my records.
My doc doesn't even test FSH or LH anymore.
One other thing that can happen, but wasn't the case for me.
You need to have your E2, or estradiol tested if you have not done so before.
That is basically a female hormone, and in some men it is elevated due to aromatization of T.
We all have some, but if it gets too high, it can block the receptor sights where the HPTA looks for T levels to signal for more. In other words the brain thinks everything is just fine when it isn't, and little LH is released.
I have read the 'sweet spot' for men is around the 20 level.
There are several drugs to lower E2, but I have never needed to use one.
Arimidex comes to mind IIRC.
I hope some of this has been of assistance to you.
Do what you need to do to feel good, but don't turn this into an obsession if you can keep from it.
IF you need T replacement ultimately, do not be afraid of it. With low levels we expose ourselves to the risk of osteoporosis, increased risk of heart disease, and muscle wasting.
Personally I was starting to really feel like garbage, and couldn't even think straight at times. 'Mental fog' is a symptom of low T BTW.
The negatives of taking injectable, or dermal applied T is that it will shut down your testes pretty much. Whatever you were able to make will be gone shortly after starting T, and it may or may NOT come back if you decide to stop it.
Also I have heard of men complaining of testicular atrophy after being on T therapy. Some have said their testes have shrunken to the size of small grapes. Supposedly HCG injections can help to avoid this.
Personally, if I need to go to T replacement at some point,.......I am doing it to feel good physically and mentally. I don't care that much if my 'boys' shrink up at 50 years old.
Whew,......what a novel I just typed!
Good luck to you at your appointment.
Last edited by Mod-S4; 05-26-2012 at 11:12 AM.
Reason: Unnecessary quote removed. It is not necessary to quote the post directly above yours.
first off thanks so much for the reply. it really is helpful. So it sounds like he's possibly got me on the right path for now with the Clomid, yeah? Would HGC be viable based on my LH/FSH if Clomid doesn't work out?
It's weird that my LH isn't higher given my low T, huh? interesting.
What did your overall T start at, and where did it get to after 2 months on Clomid? (and where is it now?).
You talked about "not obsessing." Yeah, that nailed it on the head that IS the key for me. There has got to be this cosmic balance between being "proactive" and investigating all this, yet at the same time not letting it consume you. I have been really trying to tell myself that lately. Sort of working, sort of not.
I made sure my estradiol was on the list for my blood work the other day. will definitely be curious about that. I'm pretty thin, and def don't have any breast-ish issues, but....who knows.
first off thanks so much for the reply. it really is helpful. So it sounds like he's possibly got me on the right path for now with the Clomid, yeah? Would HGC be viable based on my LH/FSH if Clomid doesn't work out?
It's weird that my LH isn't higher given my low T, huh? interesting.
What did your overall T start at, and where did it get to after 2 months on Clomid? (and where is it now?).
You talked about "not obsessing." Yeah, that nailed it on the head that IS the key for me. There has got to be this cosmic balance between being "proactive" and investigating all this, yet at the same time not letting it consume you. I have been really trying to tell myself that lately. Sort of working, sort of not.
I made sure my estradiol was on the list for my blood work the other day. will definitely be curious about that. I'm pretty thin, and def don't have any breast-ish issues, but....who knows.
No problem bud!
Yes,......seems Clomid is the right choice for now. It should really raise your FSH if you are anything like me, which is good for what you are trying to do,.....have a child!
I agree that your LH is WAY too low for your T levels,........if everything was correct, your pituitary should be dumping LH like crazy trying to get your testes to make T.
This is why I say you are secondary, or a combo like I am.
As before, three things can cause this.
Problem in the HPTA, which Clomid is about the only thing that might help this. Next is your pituitary not working correctly,......if this is the case Clomid will most likely not raise your LH much, and you should try an HCG challenge.
The last is high E2 as I mentioned before. If that is the case, your entire regulatory system is being tricked into thinking that all is well basically, due to the blocked receptor sites.
You don't have to have 'man-boobs' to have high E2 from what I have heard.
Heck, I know a few guys that have staggering high T levels, but if their E2 gets too high, well their little 'buddy' just don't want to work we will say.
You also lose your so called 'morning wood' per se. I'm sure I don't need to explain what that is!!
Should you have to do an HCG challenge, I hope you are not squeamish about needles. I can't recall the dosage, but you basically self inject before going to bed. It is done Sub-Q, so it's not painful, and easy to do yourself. The needles are short, and very thin,.......I have used them before, and couldn't even feel it when I injected myself. I used the 'love handle' area, and simply pinched an inch, then straight in with the needle.
You also have to mix the powder and bac water correctly, so if you have any problems understanding, have your doc mix it for you. I used Novarel IIRC, which is a name brand, and it must be refrigerated after mixing.
To finish up, you asked about my levels.
I was tested a number of times before trying anything. I just knew something was wrong,.....I was losing muscle mass, and strength, I had brain fog on and off, and I was gaining fat around my middle. The biggest sign was the way I felt about sex, as I was always VERY active on that front.
I could still function sexually, but it started to seem like a job to me. I'm not married like you, but have lived in a number of very long term live-in relationships with females. My last was for 8 years, and she would get frustrated when she was in the mood and I would simply roll over and say I was tired,.....women don't understand that, like we are supposed to with them! LOL
My first tests ran anywhere from 250 to close to 350, and at one point I got into the lower 200 range. I don't recall ever falling below that though.
Like you, my regular doc didn't think anything of it, and said I was fine.
I kept insisting that he was wrong, so I was referred to a worthless endo, and finally was referred to an OB/Gyn that also does functional medicine.
Quite a lot of fun sitting in a waiting room full of women. I guess they just figured I was waiting for my wife or girlfriend though!
At the time he did the initial short Clomid challenge I was low 200's, and was about 350 after the 2 weeks. The protocol he follows for men said I should have been higher, so he called it a failed test, and was going to put me on T.
At that point I refused, but did some heavy research, and found an article by Dr. Shippen concerning longer term use of Clomid. Since that was one of the doctors he followed, he read the article, and agreed it was worth a shot at a two month trial. This doc I have is really open to just about everything, and I was amazed to find him in the area that I live in.
After the 2 months I was up to a tad over 400, and he asked me how I was feeling. I told him I was losing some fat, and gaining some muscle back, but the biggest thing was my brain was like a computer again. No fog at all, and I could remember things that I had forgotten years ago.
At that point he said their was no problem continuing, but he wanted to cut my dose as I said in the last post. I have been on that regimen since, and have ALMOST hit 500 several times. While I am older than you,......as in 50, I am 6 feet tall, and I weigh 192 with very little body fat. My lipids are great, and I have interest in sex again, along with feeling strong again. My limiting factor is my bad back from the business that I have been in for 21 years, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.
He says as long as I feel good, that the levels I am running are fine for most men, and I should not start on T therapy unless I want to. He is about 65, and does injectable T himself, but he goes for what I think are crazy levels, as in 900 to 1100.
In closing out another novel length post,.....there is another thing that can cause this issue in the HPTA. That is a number of different types of almost always benign tumors in the brain, or on the pituitary. Due to my history of playing football, boxing, racing dirt bikes, owning horses that threw me, and being a firefighter/emt then a contractor for my whole life I have taken a number of blows to the head needless to say.
I was sent for an MRI of the brain w/wo contrast to check for any issues like that. It was clear.
I only mention that, as I don't know your history and levels of doing crazy, dangerous things.
That truly is about all I can tell you, but I hope you will post back at some point with how things are working out for you.
