It appears you have not yet Signed Up with our community. To Sign Up for free, please click here....



Miscarriage & Still Birth Message Board
Post New Thread   Closed Thread
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-16-2006, 12:48 AM   #1
Newbie
(female)
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: deep south
Posts: 1
lambchop46 HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

I had a molar pregnancy two years ago. It was actually my third molar pregnancy. Only this was the only one that didn't spontansously miscarry. It was a nightmare. I had the usual D&C but after 2 weeks my HCG started to rise again...doubling every 48 hours. I started chemo immediately. I had the option of using methotrexate or dactynomycin. If you ahve a chice, I highly recommend the mtheotrexate as the dactinomycin is much more caustic. If it gets outside the vein, it can cause the tissue to die and cuase you to have surgery to remove the dead tissue, resulting in severe scarring. Anyway, I had been ahving all kinds of female problems for years and had a family hsitory of ovarian cancer. Since I was in my 40s, I went ahead and requested a hysterectomy with removal of my ovaries. My molar pregnancy had turned into cancer, even though it was caught relatively early. Fortunately, it had not gotten outside the uterus and the methotrexate was controlling it....but since I had the opportunity to get all that plumbing out of there and get rid of the other problems (like a 21 day menstrual cycle with periods that lasted ten days and spotting between...not to mention painful intercourse)...I decided to jump on it. I practically ahd to threaten the doc to get him to do it, even though it was recommended for women my age. It was really hard having a hysterectomy during chemo...but I was determined to get it all out of there rather than risk another molar pregnancy and cancer. The sad thing was that I never got to mourn the 'lost baby'. My husband had never been able to have children, so when I got pregnant, we were both sure it was a miracle. Then to find out that my egg had no DNA was a very cruel joke. However, I was forunate that I was able to have one baby from a prior marriage. Out of four pregnancies, only one of them had an egg with DNA in it...now I consider that to be the true miracle. Especially since I was on the pill when I got pregnant with him!

Anyway, full molar pregnancies are not that common and most of them miscarry before the woman even realizes she is pregnant. My first molar pregnancy occurred when I was 18 and I instinctively knew it was a miscarriage, even though I did not know I was pregnant. My second miscarriage occurred when I was in my 30s. I suspected it was a msicarriage even though, once again, I didn't know I was pregnant. When I tried to find out what was going on and told my GYN about the tissue I had passed, he gave me some **** and bull story about how my uterus had just sloughed its lining at one time. The last molar pregnancy, though was really tough because I knew I was pregnant. We even had names picked out for the baby.

The only other person I have ever met who had a moalr pregnancy had a partial molar pregnancy that resulted when she got pregnant with twins and one baby formed and the other turned into a mole. The doctors let her go through the pregnancy and keep the healthy baby....meanwhile the mole progressed to cancer and proliferated her body. Still, they were able to cure the cancer completely. The GYN oncologist told me that molar pregnancy and trophblastic cnacer are considered 99% curable becaue in about 1% of the cases, the patient is not healthy enough for chemo. They can cure the cancer but the treatment would kill the patient.

Personally, I would like to see some sort of online support group for women who have msicarriages due to moalr pregnancies. It is hard enough to have a miscarriage, but to find out that your 'baby' was actually an alien thing that turned into cancer (or had the potential) is even worse. Plus, we are so wrapped up in the whoel cancer thing, we don't have time to mourn the loss of the baby. Then when it is all over and we begin to feel the need to mourn, the rest of the world has moved on and we are not given the opportunity to mourn the loss. Since molar pregnancies are relatively rare in the US, it would be hard to get a support group going except through an online group. I mean I had mine in Illinois and there were only 3 doctors in the whole state who treated them. And they were trying to run a study to see which of the two chemo agents was the most effective and in five years, they had not had 250 patients in the entire state! That is less than 50 patients a year in all of Illinois! I went on the American Cancer Society chat room and found that there had only been one other person with trophoblastic cancer in the hsitory of the board...and she had dropped off the baord two years previous.

Anyway, if anyone else has had a molar pregnancy and would like to talk about their experience or cry on each other's shoulders about the miscarriages, feel free to email me at Please read the posting rules which explain that offering or asking off board contact is not permitted. The boards are to be used for on board sharing, only. The email and private message features are turned off so that use of the message boards remain anonymous. The only contact you may make with members is to post on the board.

Last edited by moderator2; 03-16-2006 at 07:17 AM. Reason: Please honor your membership agreement. Please read and follow the posting rules.

 
Sponsors Lightbulb
   
Old 04-03-2006, 07:54 AM   #2
Newbie
(female)
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1
Sunshine Girl HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

I was 10 weeks pregnant and had a miscarriage last week. I started to bleed slightly and went to the hospital to be on the safe side. They did a scan and there was no heart beat or blood flow to the baby.
There was something else on the scan that they weren't sure what it was. They think that I could have a partial molar pregnancy.

I had a D & C done two days ago and am now waiting for the results to come back from the samples that they sent away. They've said that it could take three weeks....

I'm really struggling to mourn the loss of the baby plus not worry about the efects of the molar pregnancy.... How do you switch your mind off????

My family all live in another country so it's just my husband and I here. He's been fantastic but sometimes I wish I could just be closer to home....

I'm trying to be strong but sometimes the tears just overwhelm me.....

 
Old 01-05-2007, 08:06 PM   #3
Junior Member
(female)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 12
Mandy17 HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

Hi Lambchop,
I was so relieved and scared to find your post. I have been and am still going through a molar pregnancy. Here is my story...

My husband and I decided to try getting pregnant in 2004. My periods stopped and after seeing my GP, found out I was pregnant.

Things were going as planned, just like you, mood swings, sore breasts, weight gain, HCG levels rising normally. We went for the first scan and, like you, no baby. My husband and I were devistated. We had never heard of this before.

I had the D&C the next day, then went home. I had to go back every 2 weeks to check my HCG levels were falling normally, they are normal when they are less than 5. Mine got stuck at 12 and wouldnt fall any further. I had mythotrexate chemo to bring them down. When they reached 5, I stopped the chemo and proceeded to have monthly bolld tests to 12 mths to make sure they didn't rise again. Which they didn't.

18mths after my first pregnancy, we decided to try again. I went off the pill. One day at work I have a massive bleed, it was so bad I couldn't even walk around without it rolling down my legs. My boss took me to A&E, I was sure I was miscarrying. The bleeding stopped after a few hours. The Drs at A&E had no idea what was going on so sent me home with a scan in a week.

At the scan they found an AV malformation inside my uterus, a collection of blood vessels hanging insode my uterus, supposedly left over from the molar pregnancy 18mths ago.

Since then I have been adimitted to have two uterine embollisations, where they try to block off the main arteries feeding these blood vessels. Both failed. After speaking with endo's in the US, my gynae has had me on the pill for 6mths, taking only the hormone tablets, so no periods. Hopefully this would have reduced the blood flow to the uterus and shrunk the blood vessels. I am now waiting for a scan at the end of the month to find out if it has worked.

This whole event has now been going on for more than 2yrs. I feel drained, depressed and as I am typing this, I am crying my heart out.

I also agree that there needs to be some sort of support group for people like us. I am now terrified about the risk of cancer. How did you know yours was cancerous? Was it because you levels wouldn't fall?

Amanda

 
Old 01-10-2007, 02:11 PM   #4
Junior Member
(female)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 14
vespagirl HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

I suffered from a Partial molar pregnancy 4 years ago. I was pregnant as normal (or so I thought besides the EXTREME NAUSEA) had all the preganacy symptoms, sonograms, heard the heartbeat etc and at my 3rd month visit there was no heartbeat and I had to have a D&C. I went to have the D&C and they did ultarsound but they would not do it because of the risk of Hemmoraging (sp?) because I had HUGE baseball size cyst on one ovary and the other ovary was filled with clusters. I had to wait almost 7 days before I could get to a specialists to do a D&C. Pretty traumatizing to carry a fetus with no heartbeat that long not including the 4 days I was already carrying it without a heartbeat before that.
Specialist than discovered after the D&C It was a partial molar pregnancy and My HCG levels were skyrocketing. I had to go in weekly for blood test for 6 months to make sure my HCG was dropping. They put me on birth control pills and it helped. Luckily I didn't need the Chemo.

*Bothers me how normal the preganancy was and there was no indication that something was wrong with the fetus for the 3 months i was preganant going to my dr. visits. *

I joined a Molar Pregnancy support group after I went through that ordeal.

I am still extremely frighten to try and have another baby. I have a healthy 5 year old son and very thankful for that. I heard several success stories from the support group of women who have had molar preganancies (some more than one) went throught the chemo and had healthy babies after. Some not so successful for babies later but successful enough that they are now healthy and the cancer is gone.

After 4 years..this year I am going to make the risk and try for another a baby.

iris

 
Old 01-29-2007, 12:56 PM   #5
Newbie
(female)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: N.Delhi,India
Posts: 2
sashy HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

hi ...i too relate to you.I am 26 yrs. old.My husband is 28.We got married in Jan 2004.
I have had 3 failed pregnancies since then.The first one lasted six weeks and led to m/c---no cardiac activity.The next happened at a gap of just 3 months but i came to know tht it was a partial mole in the 7th week.Got the D&C done and had routine blood tests till the HcG got normal.Then we waited for 'bout more than a year and i again bcame pregnant in July 2006.And was shocked again as it again resulted in a partial mole tht i came to know of in the 7th week again.Thank god tht the Hcg levels dropped to normal this time too.
Now we r really confused as to our future course.We really dont know whether we should try again naturally or not.Some doctors are advising us to try again naturally since i am still young while some doctors are advising to go for an IVF/ICSI.We really dont know whether opting for IVF/ICSI would result in a normal pregnancy or would there again be a chance of a recurrence of another molar pregnancy.
Is here anyone who has had the same problem and has had a normal pregnancy afterwards?....please help us take the right decision.

 
Old 02-02-2007, 11:39 AM   #6
Newbie
(female)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: canada
Posts: 1
tigger_6 HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

Hello,

I am new to this site as well. I too am looking for support and answers. I have read everyone else's story and I am really sad for the pain and suffering that you have encountered.
My first pregnancy ended in miscarriage at 10 weeks. It was only diagnosed through an ultrasound (for dating). The doctor convinced me to use medicinal suppositories to induce a miscarriage, and that was a huge mistake. I had bleeding for 28 days, followed by bouts of 7-13 days every few weeks thereafter. It was horrible. Finally after 4 months, they decided to do a D&C.
We started trying 3 months after the D&C, and I ended up getting pregnant again (and I was very nervous because of the last time). I had no real pregnancy symptoms except food aversion and tender breasts for about 3 weeks. So, at week 10 I had an ultrasound for dating (becuase I have a short luteal phase). It happened all over again, my worst fear. So, immediately the radiologist had a look and within 50 mins I was on the phone with an OBGYN and had a D&C booked for the next day. (this was a friday afternoon, so quite amazing that it was this quick) My bloodwork showed an overactive thyroid, but amazingly I had no symptoms of this either. So, it is really quite astonishing that the body can hide things so easily.
I have to wait at least another week before the results come back. So, until then I am not 100% that I have a molar pregnancy, but it does not look hopeful.
Of course, like everyone else, I am devastated that this is not working out. I am only 27 but I feel like it will never happen for me. I was ready for kids 5 years ago, but my husband was not ready until a year ago. This has been a real tough year.
I guess I just hope that there is hope, not just for me, but for everyone going through this. I would like to hear more success stories of healthy babies born after molar pregnancy! But I also would encourage everyone to share as this is not easy for anyone to deal with.

 
Old 02-07-2007, 10:43 AM   #7
Senior Veteran
(female)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 636
athome1 HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

Hi,

I'm really sorry to hear all of your terrible situations. I myself have had 3 miscarriages and am currently on my 6th pregnancy in 3 years. I have two children (3and 2) and am due in May. We were told in December that we would have to consider aborting the baby because it appeared that I was carrying a partial molar preg. It was so devastating to hear that. Not only did I have to loose my baby, but I was the one who had to get rid of it. I don't know how to explain that any better. At this point we knew we were having a girl (I have 2 boys) and were so thrilled. Once the amnio reults came back that there was no problems with the baby, I could not find any reason to discontinue the pregnancy. So here we are at 24 1/2 weeks. I recieve ultrasounds every 2 weeks. The baby looks great, but there is a large cystic mass next to and around the placenta. They will not rule out a molar pregnancy (twins) and that scares the crap out of me.

I am on edge every day waiting for the other shoe to drop. I feel bad because I know that I am so on edge and stressed and this is evidant to those around me. I would really love to talk to someone who has had a similar situation. When I first saw the doctor, he explained that the number of normal full term babies born from a molar twin pregnancy or a p/m preg were very small, but he is optomistic with our situation.

Andrea

 
Old 02-27-2007, 08:10 AM   #8
Newbie
(female)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Calibelle HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

Hello everyone. I am 25 years old, living in the UK (my hubby is British), but I am American. I became pregnant in November, 2006. Around 5 weeks 2 days, I began to bleed red blood. Not a ton, but some. I was sent to get an ultrasound, at 5 weeks, 4 days. They established that there was a pregnancy, but it was too soon to see a baby or a heart beat. When I was 7 weeks, 5 days, I went back for another ultrasound, and they found a heartbeat. My husband and I were thrilled, as I had been terrified that I was miscarrying. I continued to bleed lightly until I was 8 weeks along. I started to vomit continuously at 8 weeks, 2 days, and I was shaking a lot as well. Couldn't stand any kind of heat, and I got dizzy a lot. At one point, I even passed out.

At my 12 week ultrasound, they told me the baby had no heartbeat, and had stopped developing at 9 1/2 weeks. We were shocked. I had a D & C on Jan 26th, 2007. After the D & C, I lost half the blood in my body. I almost had to have a blood transfusion, and I was VERY anemic. They put me on iron tablets to help me get healthy again. Before they discharged me from the hospital, I had another ultrasound to see if they got all the tissue out. They did see remains on the ultrasound, but they decided it was just blood clots that needed to come out.

I saw my doctor weekly, and he monitered my blood levels in order to see if they were rising. I continued to bleed quite a lot, until about 16 days after the D & C. After that, I just had random spotting. On February 20th, I started feeling really ill, like I had the flu or something. I called my doctor, he told me to take come pain relief, and some immodium, as I was having stomach issues. It turned out later that I had an infection in my womb, which as found out later in the week.

Also, I had been fighting to get another ultrasound done, as I was still spotting. The computers had been down at the hospital, due to a virus, so I was unable to get an ultrasound. HELLO, people still get sick when computers aren't working. I finally got another ultrasound on February 23rd, and the ultrasound technician said my uterus looked irregular, and that there was still something in there.

I was admitted immediately to the hospital. They came in, and a doctor explained to me that I had suffered a partial molar pregnancy. They had known this since February 2nd, and nobody did anything about it! I should have been having care as soon as it was found out that I had experienced a partial molar pregnancy. My husband and I were livid at this lack of care.

They were just about to put me to sleep for my 2nd D & C, when a doctor came running in, and said that the main hospital in London, who now was responsible for my case, told them not to do othe D & C until the blood results came back with my hormone level in it. I was very upset, because I had just mentally prepared myself to go through the D & C procedure a second time. I was really scared, because the first time I had lost so much blood.

It came back, that exactly a month after my D & C, that my hormone levels are 48. They should be 3 or under. I am hoping that they continue to drop.

So here I am. I am now registered to receive treatment through the hospital in London which deals with molar pregnancies. I am on 3 different types of antibiotics, which are making me really sick, and I can't wait for this week to be over. I am very scared, as I don't know what will happen next. I am SO worried about my ability to have more children. We are heart broken that we will have to wait for a year to conceive again, as we were planning on trying again soon, until we found out this news of a partial molar pregnancy.

I am hoping that people will start following through, and being more thorough in my future treatment.

I am so scared that this will happen again!!! I know having had a parial molar, that the chances of the tissue growing back or becoming invasive are slim, but I still fear that it will happen! I mean, what are the chances I would suffer a partial molar pregnancy in the first place???

Glad I found this site.

 
Old 02-27-2007, 08:38 AM   #9
Senior Member
(female)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 299
Cupcake3 HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

Hi All,

I had a m.c Jan 18th. HAd a D&C Feb 15th as tissue will still found inside me from the ultrasound and my HCG levels were increasing. One week after D&C had another HCG level test and levels were still high. Dr. Suspects moler pregnancy and sent me for more blood work this AM as well as I had an injection of methotrexate. Also going for another Ultrasound on Mar5th. I am very upset today I feel like I am loosing all my chances or being a mother. I see all the pregnant women in the Dr office enjoying themselves and I am having nothing but major problems. I keep asking what have I done to deserve this??

I am 38 years old will be 39 this year and I do not want to go through this again or have any major problems. I want to good successful pregnancy. SO and I are going through couples counseling which started last week.

I feel like I am living a nightmare...

 
Old 02-28-2007, 01:43 AM   #10
Newbie
(female)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Calibelle HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cupcake3 View Post
Hi All, I am very upset today I feel like I am loosing all my chances or being a mother. I see all the pregnant women in the Dr office enjoying themselves and I am having nothing but major problems. I keep asking what have I done to deserve this?? I want to good successful pregnancy. SO and I are going through couples counseling which started last week.I feel like I am living a nightmare...

I feel exactly the same way. Nobody can possibly know what we are going through, unless they have been through it. I am going to the doctor today, and I know I will see pregnant ladies there. It is hard seeing that. All my friends have 1-3 kids already, and some are pregnant again. They tell me they are so sorry, but they are expecting, and happy. I too keep asking why me?

Stay on here for support, I am here for anyone who wants to get their feelings out.

 
Old 02-28-2007, 11:26 AM   #11
Senior Member
(female)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 299
Cupcake3 HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calibelle View Post
I feel exactly the same way. Nobody can possibly know what we are going through, unless they have been through it. I am going to the doctor today, and I know I will see pregnant ladies there. It is hard seeing that. All my friends have 1-3 kids already, and some are pregnant again. They tell me they are so sorry, but they are expecting, and happy. I too keep asking why me?

Stay on here for support, I am here for anyone who wants to get their feelings out.
Hi Callibelle,

I wish you every success in your appointment today. I am trying to stay positve and look forward in Six months to trying again. Take care of you and be happy for you. Keep us posted on your progress.

Take care
HUGS
Cupcake...

 
Old 03-09-2007, 01:48 PM   #12
Newbie
(female)
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ebbw vale, gwent, uk
Posts: 1
lou1985 HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

Hi

Ive just started my follow up for my molar pregnancy.

I was approx 9 weeks pregnant, when i started bleeding, after having a scan we could see there was no baby so i then went on to have a d and c. Two weeks after the d and c i was still getting really bad sickness and consulted my doctor who ttok a urine sample and sent it off for testing. The pregnancy test came back possitive and i was then referred to my local hospital. After having bloods taken my hcg levels showed 124 so they decided to scan me again. The scan showed lots of "products of conception scattered around my uterus. The consultants then decided i had to have a second d and c as they suspected a moar pregnancy.

So here i am a month later, the hystology report came back confirming a molare pregnancy and i have now been refered to charing cross hospital, London. I have just had my first result back as 1000 odd (i cant remeber the exact reading) I will have send samples every two weeks and again if my levels rise or stay the same for three readings then i have to be reviewed for treatment (chemo)

The worst part is that i feel so isolated! people ask me what a molar pregnancy is and im sick of trying to explain. I just want to talk to people that have been through the same thing.

If i do have to have chemo, will my hair fall out? or is it just a mild form? I know it probably wont happen, well actually for some reason im convinced il have to have it.

I havent actually seen my consultant yet to discuss things as my appointment is April 4th and i only knew i had a molar pregnancy when i received the letter from Charring cross, london so ive got so many questions to ask.

Lou
xx

 
Old 03-09-2007, 04:22 PM   #13
Senior Member
(female)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 299
Cupcake3 HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

Hi,

Sorry for your loss and that you have to deal with this.. I just had a D&C to remove the molar pregnancy done yesterday. My procedure was a little difficult as the molar was right at the tip of my uterus so an ultrasound was used to guide the dr as it was being removed. The chemo is methotrexate a low dose of chemo. It was given to me in a shot in the buttock. I had one injection. Once my HCG levels are measured weekly my dr may want to give me another injection. Your hair will not fall out, there are possible side effects, so they have to watch the liver or kidney not sure which one.
Also get a chest x-ray because it can move around. Sometimes a CT scan is good to make sure it does not move to the brain...

Otherwise you will be fine.
Keep us updated on your progress.

take care.

 
Old 08-22-2008, 12:40 PM   #14
Newbie
(female)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Posts: 1
PDXDragonMom HB User
Re: Molar Pregnancies

Quote:
Originally Posted by aelliott View Post
Hi,

I'm really sorry to hear all of your terrible situations. I myself have had 3 miscarriages and am currently on my 6th pregnancy in 3 years. I have two children (3and 2) and am due in May. We were told in December that we would have to consider aborting the baby because it appeared that I was carrying a partial molar preg. It was so devastating to hear that. Not only did I have to loose my baby, but I was the one who had to get rid of it. I don't know how to explain that any better. At this point we knew we were having a girl (I have 2 boys) and were so thrilled. Once the amnio reults came back that there was no problems with the baby, I could not find any reason to discontinue the pregnancy. So here we are at 24 1/2 weeks. I recieve ultrasounds every 2 weeks. The baby looks great, but there is a large cystic mass next to and around the placenta. They will not rule out a molar pregnancy (twins) and that scares the crap out of me.

I am on edge every day waiting for the other shoe to drop. I feel bad because I know that I am so on edge and stressed and this is evidant to those around me. I would really love to talk to someone who has had a similar situation. When I first saw the doctor, he explained that the number of normal full term babies born from a molar twin pregnancy or a p/m preg were very small, but he is optomistic with our situation.

Andrea
How did it turn out for you??? I too am pregnant with a twin molar pregnancy. I am waiting for the results of my amnio to make sure the chromosome count is correct. The wait is terrible.

 
Closed Thread

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Board Replies Last Post
Getting a molar pulled cmhaas Dental Health 4 04-03-2009 09:16 PM
Molar pregnancy anyone? iona_23 Miscarriage & Still Birth 1 12-18-2008 03:55 PM
Molar Pregnancy Mandy17 Women's Health 1 01-17-2007 04:53 PM
Frustration after molar pregnany smurphy_78 Miscarriage & Still Birth 6 07-27-2005 05:10 PM
Molar Pregnancies jenn22 Miscarriage & Still Birth 14 07-07-2005 08:13 PM




Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Join Our Newsletter

Stay healthy through tips curated by our health experts.

Whoops,

There was a problem adding your email Try again

Thank You

Your email has been added








TOP THANKED CONTRIBUTORS



EliseC (3), writeleft (3), idreamofsilence (2), noevr (2), Angela M (1), GLSheridan (1), browneyed-babe (1), wen10 (1), complicated08 (1), amanda729 (1)

Site Wide Totals

teteri66 (1180), MSJayhawk (1004), Apollo123 (903), Titchou (847), janewhite1 (823), Gabriel (759), ladybud (754), sammy64 (668), midwest1 (668), BlueSkies14 (610)



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:57 PM.



Site owned and operated by HealthBoards.comô
Terms of Use © 1998-2014 HealthBoards.comô All rights reserved.
Do not copy or redistribute in any form!