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Old 07-02-2008, 09:54 AM   #1
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thylantyr HB User
Hot Tub / Spa therapy

I wanted to start a new thread to point out that neuropathy seems to be different for everyone, as you know. Not everyone has the same root cause, but everyone
has pain. Finding the regimen for pain relief will be different for everyone, the only thing you can do is to
try everything.

My friend is on strong pain meds and the pain never goes
away, the pain score is no less than 8 daily. Dietary supplements, blood tests, cholesterol and blood sugar
management, exercise, all these things help the body,
but there is still pain.

A few years ago, my friend went to the YMCA pool, once
per week, and both times there was pain relief. But sessions thereafter didn't offer relief, confusing. Turns out
my friend wasn't paying much attention to why there
was pain relief one day, and none the next. There is
pain relief from floating in water, but none when my friend
was holding a 4 year child in the pool and the feet were
touching the pool floor. For some reason, my friend couldn't
put this puzzle together as the answer to pain relief was
right there.

This summer, my friend went to the public pool for the first time and there was relief and it was clear now on
what needs to be done, a hot tub / spa needs to be installed at the homestead.

A spa was purchased, I helped install it, my friend tried it
out for the first time last night after work and it was
sweet, no pain. The pain returns slowly upon exit, but it's
a nice experience to have some pain relief vs. 24/7 pain.

Add the water therapy to you list of things to try out if
you seek pain relief. Try the public pools first and experiment, if it works out, get something for home.

 
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Old 07-07-2008, 02:32 AM   #2
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woondog HB User
Re: Hot Tub / Spa therapy

As you mentioned, some things work for some, some for others. It is well
documented that a jacuzzi (hot whirlpool) is not good for one's pain. In fact
it exacerbates the pain. Not to mention, it is possible to stay in too long and
for some, without having feeling in the legs and feet, one can put oneself
in a dangerous situation. My friend stayed in too long and as a result, he had
to have one leg amputated. That was in the YMCA.
Any type of exercise but especially weight bearing excercise (treadmill)
is great for pain...sends endorphins in to put nerve cells in seventh heaven
the woodog

 
Old 07-07-2008, 01:20 PM   #3
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thylantyr HB User
Re: Hot Tub / Spa therapy

Quote:
Originally Posted by woondog View Post
As you mentioned, some things work for some, some for others. It is well
documented that a jacuzzi (hot whirlpool) is not good for one's pain. In fact
it exacerbates the pain. Not to mention, it is possible to stay in too long and
for some, without having feeling in the legs and feet, one can put oneself
in a dangerous situation. My friend stayed in too long and as a result, he had
to have one leg amputated. That was in the YMCA.
Any type of exercise but especially weight bearing excercise (treadmill)
is great for pain...sends endorphins in to put nerve cells in seventh heaven
the woodog
Hypothetical:
If you are floating in water and don't have sensation in the
legs or feet, the other parts of your body will alert you to
the temperature, not to mention that it's easy to take
the temperature of the water as some of these units have
a temperature display.

My friend is using 98 - 100 degree for therapy, which is
near body temperature, typically 98 degrees in the
afternoon when the sun is out and the weather is
warm, but 100 degree at night time, two sessions per day.

Works great, the best therapy so far other than being
cured.

Recently, after soaking in the tub for a while [60 minutes
+/- 30 minutes], there is sensation on the tips of the toes,
a numb feeling, whereas without the water therapy, the
toes offer no feeling, it's dead, but this sensation stops
upon exiting the spa.

It wouldn't surprise me if the public hot tubs are 'hot',
causing more problems as you suggested, but ultimately
responsibility lies with the person using it and
understanding the therapy they choose to execute.

 
Old 07-22-2008, 11:17 AM   #4
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thylantyr HB User
Re: Hot Tub / Spa therapy

My friend's water therapy continues. This is the most rewarding regimen regarding pain management so far.

The rewards so far.

1. There is no pain after water therapy. There is no
medicine right now that offers this that doesn't turn you
into a zombie

2. The pain relief comes back slowly over time after
you exit the spa, up to 4 hours of relief. Two treatments daily = up to 8 hours of pain relief. 8 hours is better than
zero.

3. Better sleep, less muscle soreness = no more waking up
a few times per night that hinders proper rest.

4. The pain pills [Morphone, Lyrica, Vicodin, Cymbalta] regimen can now be scheduled around the water therapy
vs. round the clock.

The Vicodin regimen [4 pills total daily] is now taken 'on
demand', when needed, if needed, vs. taking them on a
schedule. There is no reason to take this medicine during
the painless window. Often, patients can't see the light
as they are so focused on pain mangement that they don't
see a different path to optimizing their regimen.

Note: Taking anti-depressents [like Cymbalta] with anti-seizure medicine [like Lyrica] is often prescribed to help
relieve nerve pain.

My friend really doesn't know how Cymbalta helps in the
pain reduction. First came Neurotin with offered some relief, then switched to Lyrica, then Cymbalta was added.

Sadly, the pain scores are 8 - 10 daily in spite taking these
hard drugs. The new experiment executed last weekend is
to get off the Cymbalta drug - to see if there is any real
reward regarding pain reduction. Reducing Viodin intake
from zero pills to maybe 2 pills daily maybe have some
withdrawal effects, and going cold turkey by stopping
Cymbalta yielded the common 'brain zap' phenomena
for one day, but the small headaches persist.

The long term plan is to reduce the hard medicines and
work the pain regimen around the water therapy 'window
of painless'.


 
Old 07-22-2008, 12:22 PM   #5
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don444 HB Userdon444 HB User
Re: Hot Tub / Spa therapy

I agree if the fact that different therapies work for different people. I have been dx'ed with PN for a few years now. I tried a foot spa and used hot water. It was one of the worst mistakes I ever made. Temperature felt warm-hot to my hand so I thought it would be OK. I was in horrible pain for a least a week.
Two other mistakes I made was with Capisian cream and at another time SportsCreme. Both of these creams brought on terrible pain. Yet some people report moderate to good results using these therapies. My PN was statin induced and I am not diabetic.
I am now trying Bentofitamine, 120mg 3x daily, so far no change. I did try a magnetic anklet and had an interesting reaction but I need more time with magnetics to make a decision. I am doing my best to avoid treatment with Lyrica.
It would be nice to see these tentative therapies listed as separate posts and read the experiences with each treatment, positive or negative.
__________________
Keep moving, it makes it harder for the undertaker to catch you. Don

 
Old 07-23-2008, 10:17 AM   #6
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thylantyr HB User
Re: Hot Tub / Spa therapy

Some of these water therapies may be sensitive on how
you execute them. My friend didn't get relief taking a
bath where you fill the tub up, but you only cover 1/2 of
your body or less with water.

The spa therapy is essentially the same thing, one would
think, but it's slightly different in procedure, just enough
of a different to perceive no pain.

In the spa, the body is submersed more than the bath
tub and the spa temperature chosen is not as hot as one
would bathe in the tub. The spa temperature is controlled
between 98 - 100 degrees. On the other hand, a person
bathing may not know the temperature unless they
use a thermometer.

Yeah, it's weird, I don't know the science why one
method doesn't works, but a similar method works
great by a simple adjustment of the procedure. /bizzare.


Last edited by thylantyr; 07-23-2008 at 10:19 AM.

 
Old 07-23-2008, 10:39 AM   #7
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thylantyr HB User
Re: Hot Tub / Spa therapy

I have been supervising my friend's neuropathy for a couple of years now. A person in 24/7 pain can't see
far into the future, instead they are focused minute by
minute, hour by hour with their pain management.

It's easy to fall in a trap where your body gets accustomed
to the pain meds and you need more to achieve that same
effect, a downward trend in the long run.

I created a custom regimen for this person that I monitor
often, to ensure they follow the plan. It's focuses on the
basics, diet and excercise plus heavy dietary supplementation. It's work in progress and the regimen
can change often as needed.

I think this regimen has other rewards in spite that pain
reduction may not be realized in the short term. I honestly
believe that if this person didn't do this regimen, they'd
be in bed all day and getting worse over time, not to mention the weight gain and water retension side effects
of all the drugs taken.

I have to keep supervising to ensure the regimen is executed daily as I have a long term vision that the
health will improve over time. Be optimistic

While the pain is still there, some of the other smaller
rewards add up and improve the quality if life.

In spite of being heavily medicated, the regimen I put
in place has allowed that person to get a part time job
five days a week, about 5 hours per day. This person has
been doing this job for 1 year now. Excercise is great,
there is weight loss, the water in the legs is gone, the
cholesterol test yield a score of 152, and the big home
run was the spa therapy, which now opens the doors
to optimize the pain pills and how you take them.

Big changes are in the works.

*No more cholesterol medicine
*On demand Vicodin vs. schedule

And last weeks experiment, to go cold turkey and remove
Cymbalta from the regimen, the anti-depressent drug
that may offer nerve pain relief. The doctor prescribed this
medicine in addition to all the other meds, but honestly,
we don't know if this drug is offering any pain relief after
1.5 years of taking the drug. It's now time to get off the
drug and monitor the pain scores.

About 36 hours after getting off Cymbalta, during lunch
last Sunday, my friend went from feeling normal to
a massive headache as if someone threw an axe in the
skull. We didn't know the cause. Only until the next day
did I look into 'Cymbalta withdrawal' and found lots of
data on 'brain zap'. The dose is 30mg daily, not a high
dose, but nonetheless the withdrawal even on a low dose
can be a shocking experience, perhaps more pain than
the neuropathy itself. The big headache was only a 1 day
event, the next few days and even today the headache remains, hopefully the detox will be a short period.


 
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