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Old 05-26-2005, 02:31 PM   #1
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Advice on Second Opinion

I had a two-level TLIF fusion at L4-L5, L5-S1 on January 5, 2005. I have
been at home recovering since. Unfortunately, I am still experiencing a lot
of pain. Specifically at night. The pain is in my lower right back and
runs from my spine along my waist. It wakes me up at night and when I get
up in the morning it is so bad I have a hard time getting out of bed. The pain I have at night is worse than anything I ever had before surgery but luckily it generally gets better within a few hours.

I still have pain during the day as well but it's not as bad as at night. I
have brought up the night pains to my doctor on many occasions and he always claims it is normal. My physical therapist has always told me she thinks there is something wrong.

I had x-rays a few weeks ago at my 4 month follow-up and everything looked
ok although the x-rays were very fuzzy and it was really difficult to see if
any bones were broken or anything. Luckily the doctor has allowed me to
continue on pain medication. I'm not sure what I would do without it right
now.

I am thinking of seeking a second opinion for the continued pain I've been
having. I don't want to create any problems with my current surgeon but I
also don't want to take any chances with my health. I would just like to
hear other people's opinions on this situation. Also, if anyone who has had
a similar surgery as me has had the same problem with continued pain for so
long. I really trust the opinions of the people here at the Pain Management board.

Thank you.

 
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Old 05-27-2005, 06:45 AM   #2
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Re: Advice on Second Opinion

Hey Dc, been there and done that, It really is to early to deem your fusin a succes or failure by fuzzy Xrays. Yuou had a ransforminall lumbar interbody fusion which is considerd minimally invasive discectomy and fusion with minamal access rod and screw placement. It all sounds great ss far as not having open surgery with a lamnectomy, But what's missing is crosslinking devices to support the axial plane at L5-S1, the other axial plane is L1-T12, where the ribs stop and lumbar vertabrea begin. These two points are major load bearing joints and the more excepted fusion for an axial plane levels involve crosslinking devices, meanng you need more than vertical placement and stabilization but also horiszontal stabilization with horizontal bars or crosslinking systems.

Without the horizontal bars you put the sacrum under added stress from rotation and twisting, crosslinking prevents this movement and allows the fusion to heal without excessive movement.

There are obvious advantages to TLIF where the muscle isn't completely stripped away and isn't an open surgery where a laminectomy has been performed. Using the same holes they use for a micro discectomy, "aproach from the side rather than midline" limts the types of hardware that can be placed through those small holes. The 3 systems used for TLIF are the CD Horizons sextant, the METRx system and the paramatrix plus, and none of them use crosslinking systems designed to prevent twisting and undue stress on the screws and screw holes at the crucial axial planes.

I've had back surgery 3 times, the last 2 were PLIFs , the last used cosslinking at every level and both have faled. The bones in the sacrum are much softer than the vertabrea and don't hld screws as well, the more torque you puton them the more mvement and likelyhod of crating a problem at L5_S1.

A good Xray would show screw toggling at S1 where the screw is inserted if the fusion fails. With non union the hardware is bareing all the weight, screws can toggle back and forth in the holes and the bone pulls away from the screw to the point that a good Xray will actualy show the teeth marks in the screw hole where the threads of the screws used to be. The screws in my sacrum pull in and out if I cross my legs and when I walk. I crunch and grind from non union and squeek from loose togling and broken hardware from the shiftin of the rig they built, It pretty much loks like aladder with 2 broken rungs from L1-S1.

Hardware is desingned to hold things in place while a fusion grows and provides stability. Untll that happens the hardware does the job. Unfortunately there is absolutely no test that wll tell you at 4 months if the fusion has failed or is alive and thriving or if the hardware is simply holding things in place onit's own. Docs use Xrays to determine alignment and lack of movement during flexion and extension Xrays. Unless the hardware fails imm*****ly and the fusion failed, the hardware can provide stabilty that will prvent movement and appear the fusion is doing it's job when it's all hardware doing it.

There is no test to check what's happening with the fusion materaial they placed, no way to tell if it's alive or dead and just waiting for reabsorption. The hardware may hold things in place for several years but it's not designed to do much past the fusion which sis usually deemed a success if nothing shfts durng the Xrays at the 6 month to 1 year point. The hardware becomes redundent and removable if the fusion is solid.

Because it takes 6 months to a year for a solid fusion, It is too early to tell. The only way to realy tell is very close examintion of each piece of hardware and to look for toggling in softer bone material in a high quality Xray. With a fuszzy Xray it's simply impossible to tell. ON a clean X ray, you can see the screw holes and if the bone is pulled away from the screw, or you can see if the screw head has sheared off and just sitting in place, you simply need a right angle, place it across the screw head and follow it to the tip of the screw, IF the head is offset, shearing has accured where the head of the screw breaks off leaving the tip in the bone and that screw is no longer providing stability.

The only way hardware subcomes to stress is when there isn't a fusion providing the stability. The hardware can basicaly do the work even on a failed fusion for several years, right up untill the hardware fails. I've snapped two sets, the last had crosslinks at every level but bth fusion were called a succes based on poor Xrays where alignment seemed correct and visual stability. But The hardware didn't break untill betwen the first and second year after surgery, during that time I was treated like junky because the doc couldn't explain the pain I was in, after all, he had done 1300 fusions and I was the onl one complaining acording to hime, BS . statistically impossible but with a giant ego involved geting a surgeon to accept his method failed or may not have been the best way to fuse L5-S1 is pretty tough. Surgeons learn to do techniques and tend to continue touse the same ones, It's geat he's gone less invasive, but without crosslinking, he's going to have a lower succes rate.

Harware is not designed to take the brunt of your weight and walking, flexion and extenson without a succesful fusion for an indefinite perid of time. Your frtunate he's still manageing the pain, but it may take the hardware actually snapping to prove there is a problm, if there is. But it really is too soon to do anything unless emthing is grossly abnormal or unstable and they simply don't do exploratory back surgery o see fif your fusion is solid bne or cldser to dried fish.

So it's basicaly too soon to tell, the hardware may provide and show stability and everythng may reman in proper alignment deamng the fusion a succes when the only thing holding things in place is your hardware.

But basicaly it too soon to really tell or to get a second opinion, many docs won't see you untill the 6 month mark anyway but it doesn't hurt to line those up. There really is no test at all to determine if the bone grew or died.
If your interested in crosslinking systems I can show yu a couple or at least the one actually proved for failed fusionsat L5-S1.

Hang in there and try to stay positive, your at a point where your rebulding lost muscle and strength so increased pain is very normal. You loose a lot of strenght and endurance very fast in a turtle shell.
Take care, Dave

 
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Old 05-27-2005, 07:31 AM   #3
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Re: Advice on Second Opinion

Thanks for the advice, Dave. This is my second surgery. The first was in 1999 and was a discectomy.

I have recently developed a lot of tailbone pain to go along with everything else. It hurts when I walk and when I sit down. Luckily it doesn't hurt all the time but maybe 50%. Is that a sign of anything? The surgeon says that too is normal. He has a huge ego and we have had our share of disagreements but luckily he has been decent to me lately. I do appreciate that he continues to manage the pain but I worry that he will become impatient and decide that I should be healed and pull my meds. What does one do in that situation? I've been dealing with back pain for 7 years and, like everyone else, have been called a junkie before. That is the last thing I need right now.

Thanks again.

DC

 
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Old 05-27-2005, 07:59 AM   #4
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Re: Advice on Second Opinion

Hey DC, Most likely when he yanks the meds, which surgeons eventually do. He will refer you to a pain management doc or a Physical med and rehab doc, most physiatrst "physical med" docs also practie PM. They may or may not use opiates but there are some meds out there that may help and lkely they will continue with your rehab and PT. After 2 surgeries, expect alot of PT, aside from the basic feel good stuff, there is myofacial release which can be helpful when adhesions have tacked your skin down to the muscle layer or scar management to break loose some of the scar tissue.

They have alot of options for pain mnagement and if it's simply a matter of taking longer to recover because it's your second surgery, you may be a little older now and we don't heal as fast as kids do. If PM has a plan and believe yo will continue to improve with PT and the right modalities they may also continue the pan meds to allow you to really work in PT without the fear of causing more pain.

Some Pm docs are quick to say your pain is intractable and will start patients on long acting opiates lke OxyContin, MSContin, duregesic, methadone etc, but it's still a bit early to say your not going to get better and never will. If you believe it, it will likely come true. If you contnue to work on your recovery, do everything your supposed to and you still can't regain function or manage your pain, these meds will be available down the road.

Persoannly I wouldn't want to go the LA opiate route untill I was sure that this is my only option. Although we get desperate for pain relief, usng these meds certainly has a price, more docs will disagree with opiate use, more addict coments, even family and friends like to form opinions of where you should be as far as recovery, how much pain you should be in and what your motives for med use are. If you haven't experienced that kind of pain, or had succesful surgery that went smoth, it's hard for people to understand what your going through.

I've been in the same spot, a few months post op wondering when the last refill will be. Things are little different now than 10 or 15 years ago, and pain is certainly treated more agressively by PM docs, but you have to decide for yourself how much discomfort you can manage and what your needs are.

Pm is trial and error, most go few alot of steps before someone says opiates are the only answer. When A doesn't work, try B, when B doesn't work try C when c doesn't and that doc runs out of things to try you ind a new doc that uses different methods. Eventually you may find that the only thing that works is pain meds or you find something else along the trail of trial and error.

But 4 months post op, you should just now be weaning off the brace and getting used to suporting yourself without the brace. It takes time, we lose strength amazingly fast when in a turtle shell. I wouldn't look at worst case scenarios yet, and you don't have any reason to believe things haven't worked other than the pain, which may simply be part of rebuilding the strength you lost. Hopefuly as you get stronger the pain will deminsih and you find that the fusion has worked and the pain slwly subsides. Extra pain at night is pretty nomal, your just paying for the activity of the day, as you become reconditioned, that will hopfuly improve too. Is most of it back pain or do you still have leg pain?
Talk with ya later, Dave

Last edited by Shoreline; 05-27-2005 at 09:39 AM.

 
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Old 05-27-2005, 08:06 AM   #5
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Re: Advice on Second Opinion

I wanted to add that the doctor never had me wear a turtle shell type brace. I have worn an elastic brace with velcro holding it on. It offers some support but not much. Could that contribute to the problem?

Also, I am 28 years old. Before I had surgery the surgeon told me I would be recovered and back to work in 6 weeks. He seemed very optomistic because of my age. He said I was the youngest person he has ever done this surgery on. This has made me very frustrated because I always have the feeling that he thinks I am exagerating my condition and that I should be much farther along in recovery than I am. I know people heal at different rates, though.

I haven't gotten a chance to read your second reply yet, shoreline, because I have to leave for physical therapy in 2 minutes but I will read it when I get home.

Thanks again for your help.

DC

 
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