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Old 09-20-2010, 10:13 AM   #1
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Question Safe use of hydrocodone?

(Pre-amble:: Apologies in advance for a very long post, but I have three questions - one concerning using tylenol with hydrocodone, but the others are what I'm seeing is a common concern, namely avoiding dependence or addiction and generally being safe with these meds. The background is probably useful for that second question. This is my first post to the forum, so I'm not sure if this is the right forum or if maybe it should be in the "Chronic Pain" one. (My pain is certainly long-term but it's not constant, so not sure if that's "chronic" or not). I already tried posting this on an entirely different website but most discussion seems to be about misuse of pain drugs. I'm hoping I can get a sensible informed and *safe* answer here.)

ANYWAY ...

I've had lower back pain for years because of disc herniation and subsequent dessication. Surgery in the late 90's helped a little, but not a lot. So I've just taken a "grin and bear it" approach since then. I did have some dihydrocodeine after my operation, but I used that up over several years afterwards. I wasn't aware that opiate painkillers were available for "non hospital" use until I was prescribed some Vicodin for a root canal about a year ago and noticed it helped my back. I happened to mention that to my doctor and he suggested I use it for back pain. So after getting another MRI to check my current back state (pretty much shot to bits) he prescribed hydrocodone. I got three fills of 30 x 5/500 tablets over a year ago. The script was "1-2 tablets, every 4-6 hours, as needed".

Although the prescription he gave me said I could take up to 2 x 5/500 tablets every 6 hours as needed, I was tending to take only 1 at a time, or sometimes just a half tablet. Most days when I took it at all, I'd take one dose, but sometimes maybe three. Many days I didn't bother with any. Just depends on how bad my back is. As I say, my pain is long-term but not constant. I'm never pain-free, but usually it's just a low-level ache. But there are blocks of 1-3 days where it spikes, and it's for those times the hydrocodone is perfect.

Anyway, I used those initial 90 tablets up after three or four months but never got around to asking for any more. Over the subsequent four or five months, by the time I decided I wished I had the tablets, the pain spike would be gone and I'd not get around to visiting the doctor. However, I got a bad run of several weeks back in June (I've gained a lot of weight which I think is aggravating the disc degeneration) so I went back to visit him. He then gave me a new script, again the dose being "1-2 tablets, every 4-6 hours, as needed", again it's 3 refills, but this time he gave me 45 tablets per refill rather than the original 30. But, and here's the core issue, now he's said I just need to have the pharmacy phone in after the third refill is done and he'll authorize a repeat. I no longer have to go visit him. That means I don't have to go through the hassle of visiting him each time I get to the end of the 3-bottle fills.

So, I'm now at the end of that last refill, three months after starting with the first fill. However -- and this is important for question 3 below -- I have no idea what a reasonable rate of use is for what was a total of 135 x 5/500 tablets. Certainly if I had used them at the maximum rate my prescription allowed -- which would be 4 x 2 x5/500 tablets every day - then I would have used them up in just over two weeks. They lasted me about thirteen weeks (I just took the last half-tablet this morning).

So, finally (!) my questions:

1. Since I tend to take less than the 2 tablets of Vicodin I'm allowed per dose, and as a result am taking less than 1000mg of acetaminophen, is it OK to take regular Tylenol to, as it were, replace the missing acetaminophen? For example, can I take one 5/500 Vicodin and one 500mg Tylenol? Also, is there any point in doing that if the aim is to maximize the pain killing effect?

2. Is it a problem that I sometimes take *less* of a dose that he specified? Strictly speaking he said "1 to 2" tablets, but I find that 0.5 sometimes nails the pain. And he did say verbally that first time I spoke to him about it (a year ago) that "sometimes you might just want to half the tablets", but it's not written on the bottle itself.

and then, most important:

3. Is it a problem that I've used all three 45 x 5/500 tablet bottles in three months? Is that too much? The time between that very first 3-bottle refill and the most recent one (where he switched to the just-phone-in-to-re-script approach) was almost a year (although that was about 3-4 months of using the meds followed by about 5 or 6 without them.) I'm now supposed to have the pharmacy call the doc for refills, but I don't want him thinking "holy crap this guy is a potential abuser!". Is 135 tablets taken over three months a lot?

thanks for your help (and for reading this far!)

 
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:31 AM   #2
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

Welcome to the board. You will find this a place of knowledgeable people who will do their best to help you.

The fact that you used your meds within the time frame that they were prescribed does not label you as a drug seeker. Nor, would I think, that your doctor would be alarmed. As long as you are keeping within the bounds of the prescribing info, you are fine.

You can suppliment Tylenol to use with your meds, but you need to be careful of the amount of Tylenol that you injest. There is a daily limit as to the amount that you can consume and not cause liver damage. Someone else will chime in with the number....my brian is full today!

Wecome and keep posting!

 
Old 09-20-2010, 12:13 PM   #3
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

Those limits are 1000mg per 4 hours and 4000mg per day. But I was just wondering if there was anything else to consider. For example, I know that the combination of acetaminophen and hydrocodone is synergistic in that it enhances the effectiveness of each. But presumably that's related to relative proportions. If I'm lowering the relative amount of hydrocodone (while staying with safe levels of acetaminophen) then maybe the synergy is lost?

 
Old 09-20-2010, 04:40 PM   #4
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

The FDA guidelines state the the maximum amount of acetaminaphine per day is 4,000 mg per person, regardless of brand, mixture or tonic. Once you cross that line you are seriously putting your liver in danger and basically overdosing on acetaminaphine. Once you cause injury to your liver by overinjesting acetaminaphine, you become more susceptible to further injury even by injesting normal amounts. I know this as a personal experience stemming from a Percocet overdose in 2008. I took 15 Percocet at one time, which was a total of 5,250 mg of acetaminaphine. I now have to have blood tests every month and my creatinine monitored to make sure that the Oxycontin and Percocet that I take monthly do not do any additional damage.

So, please be careful when taking tylenol with your pain meds, i know it seems like no big deal, but it can cause a great deal of harm.

 
Old 09-20-2010, 06:26 PM   #5
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katlin09 View Post
The FDA guidelines state the the maximum amount of acetaminaphine per day is 4,000 mg per person, regardless of brand, mixture or tonic. ...
So, please be careful when taking tylenol with your pain meds, i know it seems like no big deal, but it can cause a great deal of harm.
Thanks Katlin. But I do think I've already got a handle on FDA guidelines. What I was asking about was within those guidelines. The question was, *even if* I stay within the guidelines for total acetaminophen, is it OK/useful to take tylenol along with a less-than-maximum dose of hydrocodone.

For example, my script permits me to take 2 x 5/500 hydrocodone. Therefore, is it OK to take 1 x 5/500 hydrocodone plus 1 x 500 acetaminophen. The acetaminophen is the same as before, all I've done is reduce the hydrocodone part.

 
Old 09-20-2010, 11:09 PM   #6
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

Yes, that's perfectly fine....janiee

 
Old 09-21-2010, 06:21 AM   #7
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

smithsque,

Yes that would be fine, sorry if I didn't catch it the first time. Generally what my doc has me do is mix Ibuprofen with the hydro/vic/perc whatever....the combination of the two alot of the time helps alleviate the pain better than just adding more acetaminiphen. Have you tried that?

 
Old 09-21-2010, 10:06 AM   #8
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

just wanted to mention a couple things about tylenol and mostly how those 'guidelines' are actually set to begin with? its not an actual FDA created sort of 'rule/regulation' but comes down to how much tylenol the liver can even safely metabolize within that 24 hour period since there is only ONE particular enzyme IN the liver that does this, and its called glutithione?

we only have, on any given day,m a very individual amount of the glut to use and that can also be the enzyme that metabolizes other meds too like it does with alcohol too? this IS the same exact enzyme needed to metabolize alcohol as well as tylenol,so thats why the newer recommendations came out a few years back about taking ANY tylenol when alcohol is consumed as well? it simply will deplete that needed enzyme much more quickly and leave nothing to help with the other metabolizing needs there? onec that occurs, a new nasty enzyme gets created when there is more than the needed glut availiable called NAPQI,and THAT lil sucker just IS toxic to liver and brain cells and once that max is used up,, cvell death occurs within the liver and the brain if esp alcohol is also involved in the picture too?

what anyones actual sensitivity to their own idividual 'safe limit' truely just is,can realistcially be anywhere from around 2000mgs per day on up to even over that 4000mg mark? it all depends on the individuals overall physiological sensitivity to tylenol actually.

for occasional use, that 4000 is usually just fine, but for many who are taking tylenol based meds or simply plain old tylenol on a daily or 'chronic' basis, that 'safe limit' for them will go down a wee bit to usually around 3000mgs, ONLY becasue that needed enzyme tends to become somewhat depleted when it HAS to be utilized like all the time and does not have the needed time to fully replenish and kind of "start over fresh" kinda thing? if anyone is actually taking tylenol based meds on a daily basis, esp if that dosing is even close to the 3000mg mark, you just really DO need to have very regular monitoring of that liver and this also does impact kidneys to a certain degree as well only because everything that leaves our body must be first filtered thru our kidneys too? that is where certain toxins just 'go' on there way out. just to be safe and knowing how any given meds are simply impacting the functions of the metabolizing organs, which usually just is the liver of the kidneys. its a better safe than sorry type of situation here mostly.

people CAN actually have what is called acute liver failure simply with one single over dosing event that is soo very damaging to ones liver that it requires an actual liver transplant only because copious amounts of tylenol just went wayy beyond the full capacity of their gluths ability to even begin to deal with and that NAPQI just gets created and goes on to destroy all good liver cells left? but this scenerio usually occurs when someone does this and does not get the needed help and simply given that 'antidote' which is called "acetylcystine" which is actually ALOT of extra glutithione pretty much, to just help metabolize that way too much tylenol out of the system more safely.

smith? as far as what you are taking really does sound just fine since this does sound like a more of an occasional usage and you are also,even adding that extra 500mgs of tylenol, well under what that max limit would be too? i am just wondering tho, since it does appear that the tylenol helps you more than the hydro here, do you yourself really even feel that it is a 'needed' thing? or does that part that is the hydro really make that good solid impact vs without the hydro? just wondering, thats all.

kat? i really am wondering here, since your OD actually involved your liver moreso than anything else, just why they are "only' checking out what IS an actual kidney function here and not your actual liver labs instead? the standard liver labs that really tell the bigger picture are what are the :AST, ALT,and the alkaline phosphatase? while the most important kidney function labs that i always look at when i have to have my liver and kidney labs constantly monitored from a disease process are the :creatinine, GFR and the BUN among others? i am just wondering why the creatinine and not the liver where the actual damage took place? if you do not know this answer, you really DO NEED to sit down with the doc who is ordering this and ask him or her exactly why they are checking only one of many kidney functions and nothing with your actual liver? actually checking your BUN would make more sense considering this took place in the liver and it is also an indicator within the kidneys too, kind of a 'multi" telling' type of lab? i am just a wee confused about the reasons behind the need to keep monitoring the creatinine(unless you DO have a kidney issue?) and not anything within the liver functions? if i remember right, oxycontin is also metabolized within that liver too? it breaks down within that upper GI like starting with the stomach and is being absorbed via the intestinal tract as that was matrix simply releases the oxy along the way? but you DO need to ask some questions here hon if no one has actually told you the 'whys' of what it is they are testing?

i have to and my son has to constantly have our liver and kidneys tested. mine is from having a cystic disease that i guess started in my kidneys which has now spread to my liver and even in some muscle with huge globs of cysts? but my youngest had to have a liver tx done back in 2000,at only age 12-13 after going thru what are the horrors of liver failure and his labs at this point need to be done at every three months. thats a huge step up from when he was released and needing them done three freakin times a week. alot of time at the docs office. i really DO want to at least try and make sure that no one here has to suffer from kidney or liver issues simply because a stupid doc decides to overly Rx something that is NOT the old innocuous med we were always told it was with tylenol? sometimes you are kinda forced to have to learn about things wayyy more than you ever thought you would ONLY becasue you just need that deeper level of understanding to make really sick decisions for someone you love.

tylenol IS a safe med, but only when it is properly used in all the right ways and within certain guidelines. and those 'guidelines' are there for very real and specific reasons with just about any med we take. and if on a daily basis with tylenol, always followed up with periodic checks on liver and kidney functions too? but DO find out for certain kat, allll the real reasons for the rechecks on a kidney lab? and make CERTAIN to always always obtain your very OWN copies of ALL labs that get done on you for any real reason so YOU have the comparritives to simply see if anything is better or worse on them since these just DO very much correlate with YOUR organ functions(you also can obtain any and all past labs too)? and i always do this myself and tell anyone whos in the 'injured' state anywhere in there own bodies that requires ongoing types of testing to obtain any and all other types of test results too like MRIs or CTs or US results? this is all part of everyones own medical history. and some docs simply DO NOT 'choose' to tell every single patient about what actually ARE solid findings esp when its radiologic testing like anything that they lay you on a table for or stuff you into a tube for?

i have found ALOT of big issues between what i have been told about my MRIs and what was an actual hard finding that WAS very very impactful in certain cases(i am actually dealing with THIS right now), was never told to me, or the actual interpretting rad "forgot' to even place this critical finding actually in usually the ONLY place busy docs actually even look at in most like MRI reports, in that summary? just some really crappy stuff i have had happen or learned along the way that can help others to better stay on top of their own healthcare. i have had to have a total of 19 MRIs done all since 2001 and ten of those were just on my deteriorating c spine,with a glob of vessels inside my cord up there too. you just learn the ropes as you have certain really sick things happen, the hard way, ya know? just want everyone to be safe as possible in this 'new life' we now live in pain compared to our 'other' life as we once knew it? marcia
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:45 AM   #9
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by feelbad View Post
i am just wondering tho, since it does appear that the tylenol helps you more than the hydro here, do you yourself really even feel that it is a 'needed' thing? or does that part that is the hydro really make that good solid impact vs without the hydro? just wondering, thats all.
Thanks Feelbad. It's a good question.

My "pain med needs" vary from nothing, through one 500mg tylenol, all the way up to two 5/500 hydrocodone (which obviously *contains* two tylenol). I rarely take NSAIDs because of a low-level kidney condition.

So yes I only take the hydrocodone when I feel I "need" it, but when I do feel that way it really is the only thing that nails the spike pain. For example, I'm now out of hydrocodone and just using the tylenol. It isn't enough. But it might be tomorrow. Right now I'd probably take one full hydrocodone and that, or maybe even a half, would bring the pain back down to my usual squirmy-but-not-*really*-sore level.

The reason for my original question was to see if I can get even finer-grained control over the level of hydrocodone I take. I was wondering if, for example, I found that a half 5/500 was not enough, maybe I could try it along with a 500 tylenol, rather than just jumping straight to the full 5/500 hydrocodone. In other words, I'd be creating my own custom-built 2.5/750 hydrocodone :-)

 
Old 09-21-2010, 04:31 PM   #10
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by feelbad View Post
kat? i really am wondering here, since your OD actually involved your liver moreso than anything else, just why they are "only' checking out what IS an actual kidney function here and not your actual liver labs instead? the standard liver labs that really tell the bigger picture are what are the :AST, ALT,and the alkaline phosphatase? while the most important kidney function labs that i always look at when i have to have my liver and kidney labs constantly monitored from a disease process are the :creatinine, GFR and the BUN among others? i am just wondering why the creatinine and not the liver where the actual damage took place? if you do not know this answer, you really DO NEED to sit down with the doc who is ordering this and ask him or her exactly why they are checking only one of many kidney functions and nothing with your actual liver? actually checking your BUN would make more sense considering this took place in the liver and it is also an indicator within the kidneys too, kind of a 'multi" telling' type of lab? i am just a wee confused about the reasons behind the need to keep monitoring the creatinine(unless you DO have a kidney issue?) and not anything within the liver functions? if i remember right, oxycontin is also metabolized within that liver too? it breaks down within that upper GI like starting with the stomach and is being absorbed via the intestinal tract as that was matrix simply releases the oxy along the way? but you DO need to ask some questions here hon if no one has actually told you the 'whys' of what it is they are testing?
Marcia,

They do, check all the routine liver and liver enzyme tests each month, but my kidney is what was damaged.

Kat

 
Old 09-22-2010, 06:42 AM   #11
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

honestly smith, the less narcotic you realistically even HAVE to take, the better in the longer run for you for alot of different reasons? since you just DO retain some good relief from morso the tylenol, and you are staying within your docs set Rxing guidelines and never going over, it may be worth that good try and just experiment with a combo that simply does work for YOU and your individual pain kinda thing? i see nothing wrong with that, and i doubt your doc would either since you are not actually 'adding' any daily narcotic intake but the tylenol instead? good pain management just really IS alot of trial and error in first finding a good med that even will 'attatch" to our individual pain at all, then working within the confines of THAT good med to see what dose simply works best for us? you are doing the very same thing here, but using the tylenol and not 'the' narcotic part, anyone would have to applaud that, ya know what i mean? just always remeber guidelines that are there for many good reasons. good luck in finding that 'perfect" dosing arrangement smith.

kat, just how badly were your kidneys damaged from that one time OD of the tylenol? how have all your numbers been, esp what they probably were way back when this initially occured? i am glad they are monitoring you as closely as they are. more rxing docs simply really NEED to actually do this for their patients that they place patients with tylenol based meds on but never actually check those critical liver and kidney functions, ya know? most people are simply NOT even aware that tylenol in certain ways can seriously impact their kindeys in even more possible ways than their livers either? while any good, not too overly damaged liver has that amazing ability to actually regenerate new healthy liver cells if the toxin that created it is simply stopped, no other organ, like as you found out the hard way with your kidneys even comes close to having that same incredible ability of that liver.

did everything finally 'normalize/stabilize" for you, esp with the kidneys, or is there definitive impact or impairment there still? unfortuently, some of the best lessons we learn come with having to really experience the crappiest stuff in our lives. but you thankfully managed to survive it and DO know now and more importantly can warn others as to how easily this can occur, esp when someone has become addicted and goes wayyy beyond any resonable amount of potentially toxic doses of tylenol based narcotics? you would be totally shocked to simply read thru up in that addiction board just how much actual tylenol some of the people there are actually taking in on a daily basis. its all about 'chasing that high' that leads to this in the very first place with some(you just will need more and more pills to achieve what once came with on or two at the beginning?). not saying at all that this is what happened with your situation kat. stuff can simply happen. but this just IS the more "common" scenerio, esp since no one truely knows just what their 'own safe limit" with tylenol actually is til it happens to them either? very glad you are here and okay kat. marcia
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Old 09-22-2010, 03:23 PM   #12
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by feelbad View Post
kat, just how badly were your kidneys damaged from that one time OD of the tylenol? how have all your numbers been, esp what they probably were way back when this initially occured? i am glad they are monitoring you as closely as they are. more rxing docs simply really NEED to actually do this for their patients that they place patients with tylenol based meds on but never actually check those critical liver and kidney functions, ya know? most people are simply NOT even aware that tylenol in certain ways can seriously impact their kindeys in even more possible ways than their livers either? while any good, not too overly damaged liver has that amazing ability to actually regenerate new healthy liver cells if the toxin that created it is simply stopped, no other organ, like as you found out the hard way with your kidneys even comes close to having that same incredible ability of that liver.

did everything finally 'normalize/stabilize" for you, esp with the kidneys, or is there definitive impact or impairment there still? unfortuently, some of the best lessons we learn come with having to really experience the crappiest stuff in our lives. but you thankfully managed to survive it and DO know now and more importantly can warn others as to how easily this can occur, esp when someone has become addicted and goes wayyy beyond any resonable amount of potentially toxic doses of tylenol based narcotics? you would be totally shocked to simply read thru up in that addiction board just how much actual tylenol some of the people there are actually taking in on a daily basis. its all about 'chasing that high' that leads to this in the very first place with some(you just will need more and more pills to achieve what once came with on or two at the beginning?). not saying at all that this is what happened with your situation kat. stuff can simply happen. but this just IS the more "common" scenerio, esp since no one truely knows just what their 'own safe limit" with tylenol actually is til it happens to them either? very glad you are here and okay kat. marcia
My liver bounced back and has been fine. My kidneys never did. My creatinine goes up at the drop of a hat, and since I take Percocet for my BT meds, we just have to watch it really close. Since the OD, when my kidneys were damaged I also get kidney stones. I've had to have surgery twice since then to have some removed and I currently have 3 stoned in my left kidney, that we're just watching for now. What happen with my ODing is very simple. I have BiPolar disorder as well as Chronic Pain. I've had 20 surgeries in the last 11 years. The depression had hit an all time low, at the same time the pain had hit an all time high, and the two circumstances just did not mix well. I tried to fix it myself by being stupid and swallowing a handful of pills. Things are better these days. I'm on 12 meds and 1 injection a day, and just keeping everything in check and making sure that everything gets taken at the right time each and every day can be tough, but some how I manage. As for how easy it is to get hooked on these meds, I hear you. People do not understand how easy it is, when you're in serious pain and you think, "if I just take a little more it'll go away." But pretty soon you're taking a little more everyday and so on, and so on.

 
Old 09-23-2010, 08:54 AM   #13
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Re: Safe use of hydrocodone?

i am wondering kat, if they have ever mentioned simply placing you onto a form of oxycodone WITHOUT that tylenol, like the roxicodone? it would be safer for you overall and the kidneys and liver too? rather than having to even worry about your overall tylenol intake along with you simply just being more sensitive to it only because it was a very direct "toxin' that actually induced a kidney OD for you at the time too, it just kinda makes much more common sense to keep you off anything containing any tylenol, moreso for the kidneys it seems than the liver at this point?

unless your Rxing doc has some really solid reason for you to even still be taking this, i would have a chat with him about at least trying the roxi? why place what you STILL actually have as 'good' kidneys and liver in any type of possible jeopardy here when there just really IS NO really good reason, when something else much safer for you is simply there and very availiable? just a thought that does make goods sense considering.

while i have only had to have my six surgeries and an aneurysm coiling all since 2001, i DO suffer from what is labled as recurrent severe depression? its when way too many crappy things all hit me at once, its almost like my brain shuts down on me and i can ONLY actually 'do" the absolutely NEEDED stuff and nothing else can be taken on/in or even close to being 'done'? and my son, the one who suffered the liver failure and eventual tx of his liver also ended up dealing with a certain level of PTSD and depression after alll the grusome stuff he was forced to have to go thru, along with all the crap that any kid going back into school after this just does unfortuetly happen with some teasing about wieght mostly from high dose pred among other crappy stuff and was placed oh prozac? he had one of the worst possible reactions an adolescent can have on this crap and it created its OWN form of a bi polar disorder called bi polar III? this comes ONLY from the reaction on a childs brain from the use of SSRIs. no one warned us back then in like 2002(vs now where you get alll this info simply stapled to every Rxed SSRI), and in fact, when he was being contemplated to go on it to try and help, some sick insane way, the FDA had actually "granted' THAT really horrid med the 'label' of being the 'safest" SSRI for use in adolescents"??? i have no clue who paid how much to just GET that freaking sick label, but it most definitely was NOT at all 'safe" for my son, among other kids who have suffered this very SAME sick reaction too. it was a year from hell on that, then any other SSRIs following that prozac too, that, after everything we went thru already with him and my needing my cavernoma out of my cord and not being 'here' and at home, just about sent HIM off the deep end.

it was absolutely insane what that one med even DID TO him and the "rewiring' of his still forming brain connections and what HAD been his "normal fun loving personality before it? it was HIS really great sense of humor he just had that managed to get US thru that whole liver nightmare.

it was not til after 8 crisis admits into hosps that did not seem to even KNOW about this very real and documented type of reaction that just can happen to kids, that we finally found the ONE physc doc in the one hosp that even had mental health facilitys for kids(very few and far between no matter where you live. we had only 3 places with that one NEEDED facility never having any bedspace when HE needed it, until almost a year after this insanity began) who actually KNEW based upon what i told him and what HE evaled in him, that even the middle of the very next DAY, the doc called me to tell me they were pretty certain he had that 'created bi polar III" reaction but were still going to run thru a TON of testing just to make certain. i was just absolutely sickened at how many times he had been in what were supposed to be good adolescent hosp mental health units for kids and yet NONE of these other physc docs got this?

the sicker part here is we simply DID do everything any good parents would do in this type of situation down to his 2 therepists he saw and this STILL was allowed to occur even? just a very sick thing to even begin to have 'happen' when if anyone of the other docs had simply removed the SSRIS out of his life BEFORE that 'rewiring process' had actually taken hold, it NEVER ever would have happened. so now we have a bi polar son ONLY becasue of prozac and the other impacts of the follow up SSRIs that all still have that same mode of action he was also placed onto too(they all just continued to 'feed" this crap and impact his brain like the prozac did)? the really insane part of this is NOW vs then? all that 'added' Rxing lit you now by law just HAVE to have stapeled to every rx that can do this to a childs brain? almost every single thing listed in the warnings and what can occur could have been directly lifted right out of my sons medical file? where was this back when WE needed it? just a very sad and sick never should have happened type of situation, so trust me kat, i DO know at least some of what you deal with here every day.

sorry for the book, but this just IS a very very real thing that can occur with any child who has to be placed on any types of SSRIs. we now use anti S meds and mood stabilizers instead since he still has underlying depression along with 'other' crappy stuff. but he still has that freaking 'forced on him by a sick drug' form of bi polar III that will now ALWAYS just be there in him. sick let me tell ya.

so i DO understand the "issues' that come along with having a bi polar and chronic pain and also believe it or not i also had one kidney stone develop becasue of my kidney disease too, go figure. do they know yet just what is 'forming" your particular stones, what they consist of? if you can manage to snag up at least one of the stones when they pass, they can at the very least, tell you just what that 'make up' actually is and the things that should be avoided in your possible diet that would 'induce" the likelyhood of formations? so you can at least try and avoid the underlying 'culprits that make up YOUR particular stone formations? it can help alot in reducing the overall frequency if the 'stuff' they are made up of are at least somewhat removed from you even ingesting the stuff in the first place? there just are different types of stones made up of very particular things in YOUR body/kidneys. if any male EVER wants to actually know what its kinda like to give birth, just try and pass a flippin kidney stone. since the ureters actually keep 'contracting' to even try and push it down thru into the the bladder, it does feel kinda like when i gave birth,with the ultimate pain and the sick contractions within the ureters too, lol. just a side note. they just freaking hurt.

hopefully you wont get anymore of those kat, esp if they know what the make up is and can help you from developing them in some way at least? but if i were you, and depending alot upon just how much tylenol they are rxing you here in your BT meds, i would seriously ask your rxing doc, who really should know better given the tylenol incident, that giving anyone tylenol who has suffered ANY OD event that actually DID truely impact any organs or their functions, is simply never a 'good' idea when esp other meds can be given that do NOT even place you in that continued 'risk' catagory at all? yopur doc is supposed to be doing the best and the SAFEST rxing for their patients. and for you, that just should NOT continue to be what was a 'toxin' at one time and created a real sensitivity too? its simply a very real risk that you should NOT have to even take right now, or in your future either? like i said above, common sense of that rxing doc? good luck with everything hon. and DO bring up with your doc that possible roxicodone change from tylenol based. same exact thing, but with NO tylenol at all added. good luck and keep us posted kat, marcia
__________________
3-22-01,herniated C-6-7
11-20-01,placement of hardware for failed fusion
9-22-03,removal of cavernous hemangioma that was inside spinal cord. Neuro damage to L hand L leg and R leg.

 
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