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Old 07-04-2005, 07:27 AM   #1
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Am I doing the right thing?

Hi everyone,

For those of you who haven't read my other posts, I've been dating this guy named Justin for a little over a month now. We met online and talked back and forth for about a month before we met in person, and we clicked right away. Even in the initial emails, the similiarities between us and the way we think was surprising. We both really liked each other, both in terms of feeling attracted physically and being able to connect and open up emotionally. He's got everything I'm looking for--he's extremely brilliant (just got his engineering Phd), driven, logical, curious and well-informed, sexy, skillful and uninhibited in bed, athletic, and he has a variety of impressive talents from cooking to gardening to making beautiful furniture and just about everything else you can think of. He's also not at all uptight or conformist, very liberal and open-minded, responsible and loyal, and not at all religious, just like me, and these things are all really important to me.

Things have gone really well ever since we met. At first we split time between my apartment and his house and had a great time doing things like going out, playing tennis, seeing movies, etc. At the end of June, I moved out of my apartment, and Justin was a huge help because he was willing to do whatever I needed, is tall and strong, and has a huge SUV to hold big items. We started seeing more and more of each other and getting closer and more intimate, which we both were really happy about. He gave me a key to his house and space to store stuff there very early on, and has always been very sweet, considerate, and loving towards me. We've had a few disagreements, mainly because I am hot-tempered and he doesn't always do the best job expressing himself verbally, but in general we've gotten along great up until this weekend...

He threw a barbecue Sat. afternoon for a group of his friends, and their friends. He'd told me about several of them before, especially his one friend R, who I gathered was quite a character who Justin had known for some time. At first everything went great--his friends were just like Justin, very nice, friendly, and easy-going, and I enjoyed making conversation with them as we ate, played games, and got to know each other. Then a few hours later his friend R. shows up, seemingly already drunk, and starts being really loud and obnoxious, clearly desperate to be the center of attention. He starts being rude, aggressive, and belligerent toward just about everyone, and since I was among the few people playing bocce ball with him, was a particularly close witness to his behavior. He was basically yelling a lot, being a big drama queen, insulting people, and generally being a drunk and obnoxious jerk. He got in my face a number of times and ranted at me that I had done things like changed the score of the game drunk his bottle of vodka, none of which was remotely accurate, though he would have been better off not downing the whole bottle of vodka on his own. Now I like to have a few drinks in social situations and smoke a joint from time to time, but I don't get completely trashed to the point where I act like an idiot and can't remember the next day. Unfortunately, Justin and several of his friends, especially R., had way too much beer to handle and were acting pretty silly--he and his nice friends were just friendly and nice as always, but they did nothing to stop R. from pestering and harassing me and several other girls.

When R. started a rant about the strip clubs he's been to, I went inside, not interested in hearing about the topic, but it was clear that was a pasttime they enjoyed from time to time. Now I'm not at all uptight or prudish and don't really think strip clubs are all that big a deal--I know guys tend to go from time to time when they get together in groups and for certain occasions like weddings. Justin had a frisbee with a strip club logo in his SUV along with his other sporting equipment, so I had already grilled him about how much he was into strip clubs, because I know I deserve much better than a guy who's really obsessed with them and has to pay trashy women to pay attention to him. He's generally kind of shy and an engineer after all, so I wasn't suprised when he recounted each and every time he'd gone to a strip club with various friends since he turned 18, which I know isn't at all unusual for a young guy. Since he didn't seem at all trashy or sleazy otherwise, I let it go, but I wasn't thrilled to hear the subject come up again this weekend among Justin and his friends. I went inside to hang out on my own and avoid his friends because the party had broken up and everyone else had already left...the drunk friends eventually took off to some bars.

Justin came in and we went to go watch fireworks on a nearby hill--I started telling him how I was displeased with the way his friend treated me and how I didn't like him, which wasn't a good idea to do while he was still pretty drunk. He got defensive and when I said I was worried he wasn't the kind of guy I had thought previously, he said "ditto," which struck me as incredibly stupid and rude. So I got up to go and didn't want anything to do with the situation for the rest of the night...I showered when we got home right away and came out to find him passed out on the floor. Even though I was still irritated and disappointed in Justin, my heart melted to see him feeling sick, as after all I've been there in the past and have no right to judge anyone for indulging a bit too much at a party.

I put him in bed and tucked him in and made sure he was OK for the rest of the night, and then later he helped me fall asleep and was there cuddling with me when I woke up. We were back on good terms and acting as nice and sweet to each other as ever, but later on I wanted to talk about what had happened before and express my displeasure. Again, he got a little defensive and things got heated, but finally I got across the point that while I really liked him, I was a little worried by some of the things I've seen lately that we might not be such a great match (nothing serious, just a few minor political disputes and silly joking arguments). I said it would be nice if he would be more respectful of me and hear me out when something bothers me, and also if he could say he is sorry and wrong on occasions when he behaves not so well toward me. I guess I gave him a pretty hard time, which I can't help because I am very assertive and opinionated and need to ensure that guys I date live up to my standards...he just sat there for awhile and looked a bit sad while he thought about what I said. I worked on the computer while we both didn't really watch TV, then after a half hour or so he got up and said, you're right, I'm sorry, I'm going to head to bed because I've got a lot to think about."

I wasn't really mad at him, just wanted to know that he wasn't a huge offensive jerk like his friend, and since he's always been wonderful and sweet to me, I wanted to forgive him. I hugged him and said sorry for being so hard on him and he said I was completely justified and he was sorry too, and since it turns me on when a guy says I'm right, I persuaded him into make-up sex even though he initially just wanted to mope around. I really think that I'm falling in love with him, if not already in love with him, and every time I look at him, I feel like I'm melting. He makes me so happy in all the important ways, and so I think I'm doing the right thing by just letting all this weekend stuff go and focus on me and him in the future. However I can't help but worry a little about his crude taste in one friend and things like radio talk shows...does having a jerk for a friend mean he has to be one too? I've always heard you can tell a lot about people from their friends, and also, I don't want a sleazy guy who likes strip clubs, even though that stuff contradicts just about every single thing I've seen him do and know about him. Do you guys think we're on the right track and that I'm not making a mistake in letting myself fall for him? I know he cares for me too though he's not quite as effusively verbal in expressing his affections as some of the men I've dated in the past. Still, I adore him and want to be with him, but can't help but worry that he might not be the right match for me, or that it is too soon to get so attached to someone else after a breakup early this year. Can you guys help me with feedback please? Hope you are all having a great holiday weekend .

 
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Old 07-04-2005, 08:21 AM   #2
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Snails - hope you're having a good holiday weekend, too!

Goodness knows I'm hardly a relationship expert but I'd like to throw my 2 cents in if it may provide some perspective.

First, I think it's good that you laid it on the line right from the start what you will and won't tolerate. and I think it's good that you know so well exactly what you want. But at the same time, I think anyone is going to be an adjustment. I doubt if anyone really meets a person who has absolutely everything they ever wanted and dreamed of in a mate. I think the best we can hope for is someone who has enough good compatible traits that make the compromises worthwhile.

I think maybe you should give it some time and see what happens. If this is the person Justin becomes every single time R is around, then maybe you might have some issues to consider, but for now, you made your case, he said he was sorry and understood where you were coming from. I'd wait and see what happens the next time he and R and alcohol get together.

Getting involved with him so soon after Patrick might be an issue, I think only you can be sure if you are still dealing with Patrick baggage and if it's intruding on your new relationship. Some people can hop into another relationship no problem, others need longer mourning periods.

I wish I could help more with the different tastes/slight political differences, etc. I struggled with that one a lot in my last relationship, though it's confusing me because I'll never be sure what things were real differences and which things were differences my ex manufactured because he was too gutless to tell me he wasn't that into me. But I think that if the differences are slight, I mean if his politics don't make your blood boil every time he talks about them, and you don't gag every time he puts on his cd collection, etc, then I think generally speaking, a good relationship is worth overlooking those things. part of loving someone is giving them the respect to allow them to love what they love and believe what they believe, even if you don't agree or like it all the time. I think in time, your heart will tell you where to draw that line if you really listen to it.

 
Old 07-04-2005, 08:23 AM   #3
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Snails, I think you are doing the right thing. As long as he makes you happy, that's all that matters. I don't think his friends is a direct reflection of who he is. I'm sure you can justify that by considering some of your friends. At least one of them do things that you would never dream of doing. I know I do. We all have at least one wild friend that does things that are totally out of our character, so I don't think that is fair to say that just because R is a jerk, Justin is one also. As far as the strip club, I don't think it makes Justin sleazy if he goes every once in a while to have fun with friends. He becomes sleazy when he starts going every week by himself.

Basically, it sounds like in every way that matters, you're both happy so...

 
Old 07-04-2005, 09:04 AM   #4
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Hi Stacy I agree that this one jerky friend's behavior doesn't reflect on who Justin is as a person, or that he's not a good match for you. Most of us have had am embarrassing friend at one time or another, and it seems like he is the exception in Justin's circle of friends rather than the norm. You said all his other friends were nice and you enjoyed their company. I think it's also a good sign that Justin was able to say he's sorry about his friend's behavior and that he was going to think about what you said to him. Means that he cares. I really think you have nothing to worry about, Stacy, and like Hiya said, it definitely looks like the positive aspects of your relationship with J outweigh the occasional negatives by far, so that's your answer. You seem to be happy with Justin and it's evident that overall he wants to please you and make you happy, so I think you really have something good going on with this guy. From everything you wrote so far, I am sure he's already in love with you too!

Oh, and I don't think it's abnormally soon to be falling for him and having these melting feelings, if you ask me I am starting to feel the same way about NG, whom I've dated pretty much exactly as long as you've dated Justin. We also went to a BBQ at my previous boss's house last night and he was such a sweetheart and conversing with everyone in such an intelligent and at the same time easy-going manner, I loved to watch him mingle with all these people--he was great. But I am having these moments when I feel Soo scared, I can't even tell you how scared I am. I have NEVER in my life dated such an amazing guy, and some part of me thinks "What the heck is he doing with me?" Being with him made me realize all the more that all of my ex boyfriends were selfish jerks, and is it possible that with this history of dating self absorbed jerks, my luck could all of a sudden change? I almost find it hard to believe and sometimes I worry it's only a matter of time when NG will start wanting "space" and will want to break up with me. Gosh, I just can't relax!

 
Old 07-04-2005, 11:05 AM   #5
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Thanks! As usual, your advice seems right on target to me and just feels right. It helps so much to have you all to bounce things off and know that I can always count on honest, thoughtful feedback. And as I've said trusting my buddies here has never led me astray so why should now be any different? Also, I just feel deep down like I would be making a big mistake for making this into a relationship-threatening issue when Justin did nothing to hurt me, deceive me, or otherwise betray my trust. Sophia, I feel so similarly to you when it comes to being scared that I'm going to fall in love only to wake up at some point and realize I've been naive and stupid to think that everything really is as great as it seems with Justin. My heart goes out to you and I hate to think of you being scared, but if it helps at all, I'm right there with you. It's cool that we found our respective sweetheart engineers at the same time and can therefore relate to each other as our relationships continue to develop and unfold. I wish there was someway I could take away that nervous feeling you pinpointed or at least keep my fear of getting hurt from influencing how I react to Justin--I definitely think I wouldn't have been nearly as concerned or made as big an issue out of what happened this weekend if I wasn't feeling vulnerable about falling so hard for him. I guess we both need to trust our instincts and trust our engineers as long as they don't do anything to undermine that--I'd hate to let my doubts cause me to put my guard up and shut myself off to what Justin has to offer.

And Sophia, I am SO glad though that things have continued to go so well for you and NG--what great news!! You have deserved to be lucky again in love for some time now, and I couldn't be happier to hear that you have finally found a man who treats you as wonderfully as you deserve to be treated . Please don't ever think you don't merit the kind of sweetness and respect he shows you...it's just that none of the other guys you've dated have been good enough for you, certainly not that you didn't deserve a lot better! Wow, it would be so great if Justin and NG were feeling just like us and starting to fall hard--hopefully we'll keep getting closer to them and be able to talk about our feelings more openly as time passes. I don't think I'd ever be able to be the first one to say I love you, so I hope this is the case, anyway!

Caput, welcome to the boards --I've been very impressed by your input so far and we are lucky to have you here. And your response to my post makes a lot of sense and also makes me feel a lot better, thanks! You're right that it's not fair to assume that just because a person's friend does something, that their behavior necessarily reflects on their friends, because everyone acts like a jerk sometimes or at least has a friend or two with a tendency to get out of control at parties. Also, I don't think there's a young man with an active social life who hasn't gone to a few strip clubs, and in Justin's case, it sounds like every time he's been there, it's been because he's with people who have wanted to go. I'm only really concerned about avoiding the kind of guys you describe who go to strip clubs more often than for a social occasion every now and then, particularly if that was before we started dating. I'm not looking to be really controlling or uptight--I'm just looking to avoid guys with more than a casual interest in things like porn and strip clubs. That can suggest an attitude toward women and sex I wouldn't like, but it'd be pretty unfair and difficult to expect a red-blooded guy to have no experience with that stuff whatsoever!

Hiya, I always admire your advice, and I particularly appreciate you taking the time to respond the way you did--you made lots of good points that I need to keep in mind. I have a tendency to be a little too demanding and rigid when it comes to expecting people to live up to my expectations. No one is perfect, and it's immature and melodramatic of me to make a big deal out of it whenever everything is exactly how I would have liked it to be. No relationship worth having can survive without a healthy amount of compromise and give and take. Like you said, while it's important and smart to be firm about not tolerating unacceptable behavior, it's also critical to understand and remember that no one can be perfect and always act exactly how we'd like. Actually, I don't think our differences are even as noticable as I made it sound...I did make sure off the bat that he wasn't conservative or religious, because while I respect such views, they're not what I want in a partner. So if anything, I think Justin's just not quite as outspoken and radically liberal as I am , and it's not a bad thing to have someone a little more moderate and realistically grounded to bring me back to earth when I start one of my rants, LOL! He likes to listen to some radio shows with hosts I find a bit obnoxious and unevolved when it comes to gender issues, but I realize that people can find things entertaining or amusing without necessarily agreeing 100% with what's being said. I have never seen any indication that Justin is anything but respectful and enlightened when it comes to women--after all, a sexist chauvinist guy wouldn't have the slightest interest in a woman as strident as yours truly! You're also wise to point out that sometimes political or ideological differences can be exaggerated or even manufactured within relationships to mask underlying motivations and fears. I hope your ex wasn't putting you on completely with his views, though I can completely understand how you'd be hurt and betrayed to find out that he'd done such a 180 on beliefs he claimed to espouse so deeply after your relationship ended . How are you doing lately, by the way? I've had some trouble sleeping this weekend and read through some of your old threads, but I didn't know if it would be appropriate to bump up threads from awhile back. But I have been thinking about you and wishing you a little peace and happiness lately...no one deserves it more than you! Please let us know how you have been doing when you feel like posting an update...remember that you have lots of friends here who care deeply about you and want the best for you.

 
Old 07-04-2005, 11:47 AM   #6
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snails
I wish there was someway I could take away that nervous feeling you pinpointed or at least keep my fear of getting hurt from influencing how I react to Justin--I definitely think I wouldn't have been nearly as concerned or made as big an issue out of what happened this weekend if I wasn't feeling vulnerable about falling so hard for him. I guess we both need to trust our instincts and trust our engineers as long as they don't do anything to undermine that--I'd hate to let my doubts cause me to put my guard up and shut myself off to what Justin has to offer.

And Sophia, I am SO glad though that things have continued to go so well for you and NG--what great news!! You have deserved to be lucky again in love for some time now, and I couldn't be happier to hear that you have finally found a man who treats you as wonderfully as you deserve to be treated . Please don't ever think you don't merit the kind of sweetness and respect he shows you...it's just that none of the other guys you've dated have been good enough for you, certainly not that you didn't deserve a lot better! Wow, it would be so great if Justin and NG were feeling just like us and starting to fall hard--hopefully we'll keep getting closer to them and be able to talk about our feelings more openly as time passes. I don't think I'd ever be able to be the first one to say I love you, so I hope this is the case, anyway!
Stacy, you're absolutely right--we are feeling the fear because we have become vulnerable and there's more at stake now if things were not to work out. I know I would be extremely disappointed. Hopefully this will not be the case and we are both worrying needlessly. I know you are, because I just can't imagine that a guy who wants to spend as much time with you as Justin does, gives you a key to his house, and helps you move would not be crazy about you! I'm feeling a bit more insecure today because last night, when NG dropped me off after the BBQ, I didn't want him to stay over at my apartment because I hadn't have time to clean it up beforehand, and it was a bit of a mess and I wanted it to look nice for him. So he drove home after he dropped me off, which is almost 1.5 hrs drive from my place and it was already pretty late. This morning I called him to see if he got home ok, but he hasn't called me back. I left him another message about an hour ago, and still no response, and he usually calls back right away. I really hope he didn't get too offended that I didn't let him stay over last night, and I am also concerned if he made it home alright. Hopefully he's just busy with something or left his cellphone at home. But I can't help but feeling very worried. I guess it would look stupid if I called again, so thing I should probably just wait, but I can't really concentrate on anything. I hate being so anxious and unsettled. I am trying to study for an exam tomorrow but find it impossible to calm down.

Oh yeah, and I can also relate to you in not wanting to be the first one to declare my feelings. LOL. Wonder how long it will take for our respective engineers. One thing I've noticed is engineers are not the most naturally inclined to talk about their feelings. Hopefully it means that when they finally do feel inclined, at least they really mean it!

 
Old 07-04-2005, 12:47 PM   #7
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snails
You're also wise to point out that sometimes political or ideological differences can be exaggerated or even manufactured within relationships to mask underlying motivations and fears. I hope your ex wasn't putting you on completely with his views, though I can completely understand how you'd be hurt and betrayed to find out that he'd done such a 180 on beliefs he claimed to espouse so deeply after your relationship ended . How are you doing lately, by the way? I've had some trouble sleeping this weekend and read through some of your old threads, but I didn't know if it would be appropriate to bump up threads from awhile back. But I have been thinking about you and wishing you a little peace and happiness lately...no one deserves it more than you! Please let us know how you have been doing when you feel like posting an update...remember that you have lots of friends here who care deeply about you and want the best for you.
You're so sweet for asking. I'm hanging in there, though holidays are still hard. I just had a thought today that I think I simply opened a door that should have just stayed closed when I went out with my ex. I did a lousy job at protecting myself and just knowing that I simply didn't mean that much to him, it feels like the damage is just irreparable.

But I so admire you and Sophia and your ability to go out there and find men that you can still have these feelings for and enjoy their company and so on. I know that if things don't go right with your current relationships, you'll both be disappointed, but I also know that you're both great ladies and you'll both do fine in the end.

 
Old 07-04-2005, 01:33 PM   #8
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Yeah, Snails... slow it down, take it easy, let it go -- for now.

You're over-thinking some of this -- but at the same time I think it is healthy to at least BE thinking about possibilities and options and potential outcomes. Too many folks get into relationships and start falling in love and become blathering idiots who can't see the forest for the trees. At least you are keeping an open mind.

For a guy, the situation you described is thought about in this manner:

"Oh, boy. I screwed up. I'd like to just forget the whole thing ever happened. I suppose I'll have to have 'the talk' with her sometime, when she brings it up. Oh, man... I hate 'the talk.' But I am really crazy about the girl, so... I guess I can deal with 'the talk' if I have to. I'd really rather just forget it and move along, though."

For the gal... well, my friend... you already KNOW how you think about it! A HUGE post detailing every nuance of what happened and every possible future scenario and emotional response contained therein!

That's OK, though -- it's just a gender thing. And like I said... at least you are THINKING, which is more than a lot of people who react strictly on the basis of their emotions and nothing else at all!

What men would like is if 'the talk' could be delayed a bit, not tackled IMMEDIATELY after the fact. We like to think about things for a while. We want to feel that our mistakes are at least initially forgiven. This helps us to gather our logical bits and pieces in one place so that we CAN talk it over. Sometimes we need a few days to do this. Most ladies, it seems, want to get it all out in the open instantly and quell their fears. Understandable -- just not in accordance with the wishes of most guys! We often feel "attacked" when this happens. I am NOT saying YOUR guy feels this way -- I'm saying it is POSSIBLE that some men do.

We tend to get defensive about our friends and our errors in judgment, too. Most of the time we KNOW when we have been foolish -- and we DREAD the time when the significant other in our lives feels compelled to point that out! To us... well, we already KNOW we screwed up... we feel as if we don't really have to talk it out in great detail. We mostly want to just MOVE ALONE and forget it.

But we also know that most ladies will NEVER allow this -- so we WILL talk about it -- we just want it to be over FAST so we can get back to feeling GOOD about things.

My advice -- do NOT "nag" him. Now, don't get upset -- I am not saying you ARE a "nag." I'm saying men will often interpret "the talk" as nagging. Sounds like YOUR guy may lean toward being at least a possible exception to that. But still... don't be too hard on the dude. You have every "right" to speak your mind and clear the air -- just do it gently.

You ladies know how to get what you want most of the time, don't you? Use your wit and obvious intelligence to get your point across. Do it quickly, kindly, and get it over with -- then go back to having fun.

Then, in the future, since you already have let him know how you feel about certain issues, you can see if his actions reflect that he has actually LISTENED to you!

Everyone else has already stated that his friends do not necessarily reflect HIM -- so I won't bother repeating that.

I will say, however, that having to deal with a drunk friend repeatedly is NOT acceptable. I would not associate with drunk folks who are obnoxious all the time, either. Now, SOMETIMES you simply MUST just deal with it -- parties happen, right? But if it keeps becoming an ISSUE -- then you can simply tell your BF that when it happens you will be excusing yourself from the festivities and be heading HOME. Let him know you want an OUT if you need one. Let him know that you can tolerate some obnoxiousness as dealing with other people who are not your type is part of life. But you won't be forced to exist in uncomfortable circumstances ALL the time because then it BECOMES your life and that is not what you enjoy.

This is completely fair and I'd be shocked if he had any objections to it. In fact, I'm sure he will not.

And, yes... it is WAY too soon to determine if this relationship is "the one" or not. Just have fun and enjoy yourself. It is impossible to tell you NOT to fall in love, but... do try to keep a PART of your heart reserved for YOURSELF, OK?

So what's the radio talk show? Tom Leykis, I bet... Don't take him too personally. Tom is doing a shtick and he's making a fortune with it.

 
Old 07-04-2005, 02:47 PM   #9
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScruffyGuy
For the gal... well, my friend... you already KNOW how you think about it! A HUGE post detailing every nuance of what happened and every possible future scenario and emotional response contained therein!

That's OK, though -- it's just a gender thing. And like I said... at least you are THINKING, which is more than a lot of people who react strictly on the basis of their emotions and nothing else at all!
Scruffy, your post is as funny as it is accurate! Don't you agree, Stacy? I think it is a gender thing that we overanalyze everything and consider every possible scenario in our heads. But I agree, it's good that you at least notice things and sometimes question things instead of letting your "gaga factor" blind you towards everything that could be potentially troublesome. I really think Scruffy is right in that guys are so different from us girls in wanting to deal with and have detailed discussions about anything they consider unpleasant. My new guy is definitely the same way, so I don't think J was in any way behaving strangely or inappropriately. Of course, I also second Scruffyguy that if you were forced to deal with the drunken friend on a regular basis, I would let Justin know that I would prefer not to be around when he's around. But for now, seems like everything is going great. I doubt that Justin will bring that embarrassing goofball along if you're to be within a close proximity of him

 
Old 07-04-2005, 02:56 PM   #10
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiya
You're so sweet for asking. I'm hanging in there, though holidays are still hard. I just had a thought today that I think I simply opened a door that should have just stayed closed when I went out with my ex. I did a lousy job at protecting myself and just knowing that I simply didn't mean that much to him, it feels like the damage is just irreparable.

But I so admire you and Sophia and your ability to go out there and find men that you can still have these feelings for and enjoy their company and so on. I know that if things don't go right with your current relationships, you'll both be disappointed, but I also know that you're both great ladies and you'll both do fine in the end.
Hiya, you HAVE to give yourself a chance! I don't consider myself to be emotionally more resillient than you are and if my new guy doesn't work out, I'll probably be totally devastated at this point, but what's the alternative?? There's nothing to admire, really, because it took me a loong time and some pretty horrible experiences to find NG, which is not a sure thing yet either, and if I could have the guts to do that, I know you can too. Who cares if you meant that much or not to ONE guy? My ex who I used to be absolutely crazy about called me just a few days ago, but now that I compare him to NG, I can see what kind of a ba****d he was and completely undeserving of my love and devotion. Now I think HE, along with my other ex's, was the one who lost out on someone who is as kind-hearted as I am and I don't give a damn on what he thought, thinks, or will think of me. You have that ability too, Nini, just find it in yourself to become somewhat vulnerable to someone and open in general to find what you're looking for. And like Stacy said, don't accept anything less because you've waited long enough.

 
Old 07-04-2005, 05:42 PM   #11
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SophiaM
Stacy, you're absolutely right--we are feeling the fear because we have become vulnerable and there's more at stake now if things were not to work out. I know I would be extremely disappointed. Hopefully this will not be the case and we are both worrying needlessly. I know you are, because I just can't imagine that a guy who wants to spend as much time with you as Justin does, gives you a key to his house, and helps you move would not be crazy about you! I'm feeling a bit more insecure today because last night, when NG dropped me off after the BBQ, I didn't want him to stay over at my apartment because I hadn't have time to clean it up beforehand, and it was a bit of a mess and I wanted it to look nice for him. So he drove home after he dropped me off, which is almost 1.5 hrs drive from my place and it was already pretty late. This morning I called him to see if he got home ok, but he hasn't called me back. I left him another message about an hour ago, and still no response, and he usually calls back right away. I really hope he didn't get too offended that I didn't let him stay over last night, and I am also concerned if he made it home alright. Hopefully he's just busy with something or left his cellphone at home. But I can't help but feeling very worried. I guess it would look stupid if I called again, so thing I should probably just wait, but I can't really concentrate on anything. I hate being so anxious and unsettled. I am trying to study for an exam tomorrow but find it impossible to calm down.

Oh yeah, and I can also relate to you in not wanting to be the first one to declare my feelings. LOL. Wonder how long it will take for our respective engineers. One thing I've noticed is engineers are not the most naturally inclined to talk about their feelings. Hopefully it means that when they finally do feel inclined, at least they really mean it!
Hi Sophia,

I really wouldn't worry about NG not calling--I'll bet anything he's out doing something and either didn't bring his phone or isn't getting reception. Maybe he's just planning on calling you back later when he's back home and not surrounded by a crowd. I'm sure everything's OK--though honestly, not having cleaned your apartment is no reason not to let him stay if you'd like him with you overnight otherwise. Trust me, he could care less about a mess, which I'm sure isn't even something he'd consider messy. He's so busy looking at you and thinking how sexy you are and how much you wants you that there's no way he even bothers looking around at your apartment and noticing how clean it is. There's nothing wrong with letting him see you without having everything be perfect, too--you're a human being and things get messy sometime. If he really likes you, he'll like you for who you are, flaws included. Believe me, Justin's seen my new place looking like a war zone, with junk thrown everywhere, and all he cares about is being close to me, preferably in bed together .

So while NG may have been a bit disappointed not to spend the night with you, it's never a bad thing to give him a little time to wait and build his anticipation for you...I'm assuming you guys are physically involved by now? Sorry if I'm wrong on that. I guess a month isn't really that long to be involved before sleeping together in many people's minds; I've just never been able to hold off that long when I am with a guy I really like and find attractive. I was very proud of myself for waiting as long as I did until Justin got tested for STDs and had to wait a week for the results--that was tough, lol! Anyway, as you guys know, I don't think there's such a thing as sleeping together too soon as long as it feels right to both of you. I have never ever met a man worth having who would lose interest in a girl he was crazy about just because they had a great night of sex soon after meeting! Well, sorry for getting off track there. I just wanted to throw my $.02 in regarding waiting for NG to return your call...I'm sure there's no reason for him to be holding off on getting back to you. I wouldn't call him again though. Anymore than twice before he returns you call starts to look a bit desperate...though I can completely understand where you're coming from in being concerned even though you know there's probably no reason to worry. I do the same thing if I haven't heard back from J as quickly as I would have liked...even if it hasn't been a full day yet, I still start wondering if I did something to turn him off without realizing it last time we were together, and time and time again he proves me wrong and makes me feel silly for getting so worried. NG has consistently demonstrated a sincere interest in you, and the great thing about somewhat reserved cautious engineers like ours is that while they may be slow to open up, they also tend to be very genuine once they do express their feelings to you and start to become attached to you.

Good luck studying for your exam tomorrow--try not to let yourself worry anymore, just think of all the times in the past you've been concerned about not hearing from NG and then had him come through for you as promised each time. I'm sure he'll call you tonight or tomorrow, and in the meantime, hopefully you will have had a nice relaxing night and had a chance to properly prepare yourself for your test. Has he said anything so far about how he feels about you? Justin seems to have quite a tough time voicing his emotions, although I'm pretty sure he's falling in love with me, going by how guys have treated me in the past. When I tell him things like how much I care for him and love spending time with him, I can tell he's just delighted and he always reciprocates my sentiments, so I know deep down that he's just shy and reserved about talking about how he feels. I can totally understand that--it's not like we ladies are immune from worrying about being vulnerable and not having our feelings reciprocated! But if we and our engineers are both consistently demonstrating to each other that we're really into each other and want to be together, then I don't think any of the four of us have anything to worry about . I'm actually wondering if I should let Justin know I'm falling in love with him...I think he might need a little push. I'd definitely wait until things settle down again and we have a few days to get past this weekend drama, but I'm considering asking him if he thinks he could be falling in love with me. I think he's only the second guy I've dated not to say I love you by the end of a month together, though I get the sense he's fallen for me especially fast and hard, so I'll see how things go and not rule out speaking up before long. Well anyway, have a great night Sophia, and best wishes tomorrow in school. Keep us up to date on how things go with NG OK? I know we're all rooting for you and I especially like hearing about how things are progressing since our situations are so similar and seem to be so promising.

 
Old 07-04-2005, 06:11 PM   #12
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

You were right once again, Stacy He did call; apparently was at the beach all day with some guy friends and now was going to see the fireworks with them. I do worry a bit too much when I like someone but I can't help it. Looks like NG is very much like J in not being the best at expressing his emotions. No, he hasn't told me exactly how he feels about me, either. He's given me compliments and told me I'm beautiful, etc, but never said how he feels about me. The only way I would guess is that he seems to want to do stuff for me, like, he woke up early the other day and dressed and drove to a coffee shop to bring me my favorite coffee, he always opens various doors for me, and he also said I'm the only girl he ever let play with his hair (he hates it otherwise, apparently). He jokingly complained about it yesterday, and I said he was soo patient to put up with my monkey grooming tendencies, and he said it's only because the positives outweigh the negatives

Wow, you think you're brave enough to ask J if he might be falling in love with you? I have to say I've been a chicken thus far. But it might not be such a bad idea. Perhaps that's what these slightly clammed-up engineers need? LOL. The furtherst I've ventured out on an emotional limb so far was to tell NG that he was a wonderful guy and the best I've ever dated (which is true), which seemed to please him because he smiled, but then again, he didn't say much to it, either. Everyone at the party yesterday seemed to be so smitten with him, I was afraid it might go into his head too much I am not the most emotionally outpouring person myself, but looks like I will have to be the one to bring on the "mush"...I am so not used to this role. My ex fiance would tell me 500 times a day how much he loved me, wanted to grow old with me and blah, blah, blah--of course it was just super cheap talk and he was such a ridiculous blabbing clown in my eyes now. I would much rather have someone not say anything until they really mean what they say. Generally, I think people who are more cautious with their words, without becoming the other extreme, are more trustworthy and I respect them more. Thank you for talking some sense to me Stacy, and I hope J continues to be the wonderful guy that he is and continues making you happy in every way possible! Let me know when and if you bring up the "feelings" conversation with him. Knowing you, he'll just drop down to his knees and tell you he's absolutely in love with you but was scared to confess so soon.

 
Old 07-04-2005, 06:15 PM   #13
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Hi Sophia, I definitely agree that Scruffy's advice is just as accurate and entertaining as always--I admire his candor and directness very much. And Nini, thank you so much for your continual support and optimism...I so wish that you could apply the same wise, upbeat insight you have when it comes to everyone else to your own situation and see how much you are selling yourself short. You are such a sweet, kind, and sensitive woman, and there are millions of men wandering the planet feeling just like you: sad, lonely, incomplete and wondering when they will find someone with whom they can finally share all the love and passion in their hearts. People stumble across love each and every day, usually when they're not actively seeking or expecting it, so why in the world are you so convinced this couldn't happen to a wonderful woman like yourself?? I could not agree more with Sophia that your ex, along with hers, is the one who was stupid, screwed up, and blew a great chance for a lifetime of happiness...NOT YOU! You honestly did nothing wrong--he was just a jerk who wasn't right for you, and it breaks all your friends' hearts to see you believe that you are the one who somehow messed up your one chance for happiness. That is just so untrue--not only will you have another chance for happiness, I just know it and especially if you believe it could happen, but also, your ex never had a chance of being happy with you or anyone else. He has serious issues and seems to hate women--he either chooses ones he can abuse/punish or women who treat him that way instead. I think he's a complete loser and jerk for what he did to you, but other than that, I really feel sorry for him for throwing away his chance with a woman who truly loved him for the person he was, including both his good and terrible, conflicted qualities. He didn't think he deserved someone who treated him as well as you did, probably because he had such traumatic and dysfunctional experiences as a child, and so he ended up with a tyrannical woman who constantly yells at him, throws stuff at him, and otherwise abuses him. I honestly can't see why you thought you got the raw end of the deal--you might be alone, but at least you aren't spending your life tip-toeing around a mean bully who makes your life miserable. Please try to give yourself the gift of reclaiming at least a tiny bit of hope that you may find love again, love that will be honest and sincere and make you forget all about your insecure, screwed up ex and his pathetic existence. You are so much better than that, and there are so many men out there who would kill for a woman like you if only you put yourself out there and truly believed there was a chance for you to find love again. I seem to recall that you tried that eharmony site, which I think is really inferior to sites like match. I tried it for free and only got a half dozen matches--I thought the questions/profile info was really vague, superficial, and silly, and didn't like how people couldn't search for their own matches based on objective criteria they feel is important. I had 8000 men view my profile in the month or two it was online, and received hundreds of emails and probably a thousand winks through match, and about five messages from eharmony telling me they had found me a great match for me--whatever! I really think you need to get into the habit of trying more than one thing before ruling something out--for instance, if I recall correctly you have decided anti-depressants won't help you because you had a bad reaction to the first one you tried, and that online dating isn't great because eharmony didn't work well. But almost everyone needs to try more than one kind of medication or online site before they find one that works for them, particularly if they are on the dating site you chose! Please think about giving some of the things you've already tried another chance before you instinctively say no and explain or give an excuse why it won't work--just think about it, what do you have to lose? You say you couldn't get much more unhappy and you don't want to give up, but can't come up with anything else to try--so why not give some things you've already tried another shot? No one ever succeeds with anything worth achieving on the first try, so you're not giving yourself a fair chance to find love and happiness if you don't get back out there and "if at first you don't succeed, try try again!"

Scruffy Guy, I really appreciate you taking the time to provide such thoughtful and comprehensive insights about how men view relationship issues. I've been reading a great book called "Why Men Won't Commit"--the title is misleading; really it explains how men think about women and what they want from a happy, healthy relationship. Have you heard of it? It provides a lot of helpful wisdom that I didn't know before, but that has proven true so far and makes a ton of sense to me in the context of my past experience with men. You are so completely right that most men would rather not "talk things out"--I know exactly how they feel! There's nothing I dread more than sitting down to have a forced, heavy talk about feelings, and because Justin has been so kind, accepting, and understanding with me, I decided to let him slide and let this go completely once I spoke my piece. He argued and got defensive at first, but I explained that I deserved to be with a man who would respect my opinions and hear me out, even if he didn't agree, and one who was willing to apologize if necessary and most importantly, not let small disputes stand in the way of an otherwise great relationship. So last night after I told him how I felt about what had happened, he thought for some time on his own, then came over and said I was completely right and justified in feeling the way I did, and that he was sorry for not handling things better. That made me happy, as I was eager to get past this disagreement, so I snuggled him up and started kissing him, which made him happy, but also made him feel guilty for having so much fun after getting scolded. He said he felt bad but I said he'd actually been wonderful to me all in all, and I couldn't wait to put this behind us...it didn't take long before I convinced him that the best way to do this was to spend the night making love and sleeping in late. Scruffy, I honestly think you couldn't be more right that the worst thing to do to a man is nag or sulk. Fortunately it is not in my nature to be that subtle, lol--I make it very clear what I want and need and when I'm not getting it, what needs to happen in order for me to be content again. I think Justin appreciates me being so direct and honest about how he can please me, in terms of everything from emotions to sex. I also think my approach is rubbing off and he says repeatedly that he has never felt so comfortable being open and free about discussing his desires, feelings, and needs when necessary. Mostly though, I agree that I and many other women tend to analyze things way too much and spend far too little time just sitting back, being upbeat and positive, and just enjoying the journey rather than worrying so much about how each stage of a relationship will unfold. I plan on getting back to that optimistic, easy-going approach which has so pleased both of us since we first met starting last night , and certainly from now on except for when it becomes necessary for me to explain key things to Justin. I can also try to be more laidback, less quick to anger and snap, and let the small things slide as long as everything important is going well. I will do my best, rely on all of your always wonderfully helpful and accurate insights, and enjoy seeing how things progress in their own time between Justin and me. Thanks so much everyone--I will keep you all posted!

 
Old 07-04-2005, 06:26 PM   #14
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SophiaM
You were right once again, Stacy He did call; apparently was at the beach all day with some guy friends and now was going to see the fireworks with them. I do worry a bit too much when I like someone but I can't help it. Looks like NG is very much like J in not being the best at expressing his emotions. No, he hasn't told me exactly how he feels about me, either. He's given me compliments and told me I'm beautiful, etc, but never said how he feels about me. The only way I would guess is that he seems to want to do stuff for me, like, he woke up early the other day and dressed and drove to a coffee shop to bring me my favorite coffee, he always opens various doors for me, and he also said I'm the only girl he ever let play with his hair (he hates it otherwise, apparently). He jokingly complained about it yesterday, and I said he was soo patient to put up with my monkey grooming tendencies, and he said it's only because the positives outweigh the negatives

Wow, you think you're brave enough to ask J if he might be falling in love with you? I have to say I've been a chicken thus far. But it might not be such a bad idea. Perhaps that's what these slightly clammed-up engineers need? LOL. The furtherst I've ventured out on an emotional limb so far was to tell NG that he was a wonderful guy and the best I've ever dated (which is true), which seemed to please him because he smiled, but then again, he didn't say much to it, either. Everyone at the party yesterday seemed to be so smitten with him, I was afraid it might go into his head too much I am not the most emotionally outpouring person myself, but looks like I will have to be the one to bring on the "mush"...I am so not used to this role. My ex fiance would tell me 500 times a day how much he loved me, wanted to grow old with me and blah, blah, blah--of course it was just super cheap talk and he was such a ridiculous blabbing clown in my eyes now. I would much rather have someone not say anything until they really mean what they say. Generally, I think people who are more cautious with their words, without becoming the other extreme, are more trustworthy and I respect them more. Thank you for talking some sense to me Stacy, and I hope J continues to be the wonderful guy that he is and continues making you happy in every way possible! Let me know when and if you bring up the "feelings" conversation with him. Knowing you, he'll just drop down to his knees and tell you he's absolutely in love with you but was scared to confess so soon.
Oh Sophia, I'm so happy for you! I have a big steamy bubble bath waiting for me and then a nice warm bed to slip into with Justin, so I better stop going on and on here soon, but I did want to respond to your sweet post. It sounds like NG is as smitten with you as any man in his right mind would be, and I'm thrilled that he's treating you like the goddess you are. I couldn't agree more that men who are somewhat cautious and reserved when it comes to telling you how they feel are much more likely to be sincere and truthful when they do say something emotional then guys who are glib charmers and have no problem fawning all over us women. Talk is cheap, and it means a lot more to hear a man say I love you when he has already made that clear through the way he treats you, talks to you, touches you, looks at you, etc. I do think I am going to bring up the whole love thing with Justin soon. I think he deserves to know how wonderful he's been to me, how great I think he is, and how I am falling head over heels for him already. I'm not going to come out and say I love you, but I don't think there's anything wrong about helping him along a bit--I'll probably ask him at some point, when it relates to the conversation we're having, if he sees himself falling in love with me. I do think that everything he's done and said so far strongly suggests he cares deeply for me, and that it will only be a matter of time before we tell each other we're in love. I hope this is true, anyway--time will tell. I'm not really in a rush, but I do like to be completely honest and open when it comes to important stuff like that, and though I've never said I love you first, I'm not going to wait around forever for a guy either to start loving me or get the guts to tell me if he already does. I will be sure to tell you exactly how I'm thinking of approaching it when the time comes or at least fill you in after ASAP...hey, congratulations on the good news with NG, and again, I couldn't be happier for you!! Have a great night and a great test tomorrow!

 
Old 07-05-2005, 09:20 AM   #15
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Re: Am I doing the right thing?

Hi, Stacy Of course you knew that Goody wouldn't pass up the opportunity to offer you support & advice and apologize for not posting before now since I have had no internet service for the past week or so. there's lots to catch up on but for now it's nice to see that your engineer has become real here with a name Justin....that was one of the names I had picked out if Tom & I were to have a boy....Hmmmmm

Anyway, seems to me that without even having read your post once you disclosed a name and made him real to us he was already real in your heart. I knew without your even saying so that you are falling for Justin, for his name is on your mind and in your heart. I understand that the differences that you have been having are also real and it is going to take some time to see how significant they will actually be. As far as one's friends...seems to me that Justin's friends for the most part were fun and people that you could get along with. When we add alcohol and smoking weed to a group of people we all know that everyone acts differently under such circumstances. I think what counts most is how Justin was....HE wasn't arrogant or rude and I have a feeling as we all know about you, that Justin already knew that there was no need to come to your defense because as you already told us you are a woman who speaks her mind and isn't afraid to do so. So....in terms of dealing with his friend, R., you handled things just fine....walking away when he got out of hand and carried on conversations that offended or bothered you. You must remember that Justin knows his friends far better than you and accepts them flaws & all. And it sounds to me as if R. is not his closest friend either. We usually have a tight cluster of friends and not all of them identify who we are.....but we like a part of them that we relate to. Perhaps you will need some "sober" time to find out what it is in R. that Justin relates most to. To this day....there are some friends of mine that Tom doesn't particularly care for and yet he respects my need for them in my life as a friend. And there are a few of his that aren't my favorites either but still I see their improtance in his life. What's most important is that the flaws that we dislike in that friend aren't part of the one we love. Personally neither Tom or I possess the things that we dislike in one anothers friends So....I thought this might help in terms of relieving yourself of some of the worry that you have had.

Also...I was impressed at how you opened up to Justin even though he has trouble articulating his feelings. By talking things out and telling him how everything made you feel at least he was given the opportunity to know what was bothering you without any time spent in trying to figure things out. You will find that gender wise, as Scruffy Guy so wonderfully informs us, men are not very good a being "feeling" detectives. In fact, most avoid that job. Remember the "shields" theory we once learned about together....this is a really good time to recall how that all works and avoid keeping those shields up and being able to determine where Justin is at a given moment so that you can work through it (eg: shields up vs. shields down). Seems like you did just fine this time...however, as you already noticed....having a serious conversation in the company of alcohol doesn't really work .

I am a little out of the loop...you mentioned moving out of your apartment and moving some stuff over to Justin's. Are you living with him or do you have your own place??? Also...I am a lover of the game of bocce as is Tom. We make a great team when we play together

Great to hear about how things are progressing with Justin. I wonder if your worry stems from the fact that you and Patrick hardly ever fought Sometimes it is better to get things out in the open with a disagreement than to keep things all bottled up inside. It's how you communicate and work through it that counts the most. Not fighting with Patrick may not have been the best thing in your relationship afterall.....just a thought that may help you understand things a little bit better.

(((HUGS))) ~ Goody

Last edited by goody2shuz; 07-05-2005 at 09:24 AM.

 
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