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Old 08-24-2007, 08:36 AM   #1
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Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

I wanted to pose a few confronting questions for you all, and am very interested to hear the opinions. I'm aware they'll probably be pretty varied, if answered honestly and without cliche. And of course, whether you are a man, or a woman, will be a very deciding factor too.

I will not go into too much about my situations, needless to say, that I have had both great and not so great experiences with men (speaking in terms of friendship as well as the rest). Some not worth noting and of no major impact. Some of great impact that has effectively redefined my life (and perspectives) from that point on. I'm sure you are all the same. I have been single for a long time now, although not without partners here and there. What I want most of all (or I think I want, at this point), is as simple and obvious as what most females would like. A man that I can fall in love with, and continue to love, who reciprocates. Easy? Nada. You only have to listen to a song on the radio,step into a bookshop, go online, talk to a friend/relative/stranger, look at the divorce stats to realise...something's not adding up. Its a battle-field. But... is it just me, or is it getting HARDER??

I have a lot of male friends, of all ages. I have loved a very few men, because me personally, I find it difficult to fall in love. I envy those women who see the attractiveness in so many so quickly... even the girls who throw themselves out there and make it their 'mission' to find one. I've never done that. I've never had a problem attracting men, sometimes the very wrong ones Yet, I spend alot of time with them, listen to what they say to me, to eachother, to others. Observe them. And a lot of it... is a worry. Even the passive, nice ones... their passivity itself can be VERY manipulating. Hearing what male friends say about girls they are seeing (girlfriend or not), when the girl is not there.... alot of them are fully aware of the situation they are creating...

I see my friends, and their friends, and hear their stories. Look at all the stories on these boards too. So many stories of cheating, failed relationships, men who do not believe in 'relationships' only 'casual'. Men who are disinterested in making amends, or acknowledging problems. Men who believe in polygamy. Men who do not believe in marriage. Men who pretend they do, but cheat, or leave. Men who have one 'main' girl, and 20 'on the sides' unbeknowest to the woman. Or perhaps she does have an inkling, but is putting on a 'happy face'.

And now I've realised, after all this... I've lost faith in men

What do you think.... are men really ever monogamous? It is not in their nature to do so, biologically speaking. Do they all cheat, or lie to avoid confrontations and dramas, but some do it discretely, and not often, and are generally quite nice people, while some are more cruel and obvious about it? Do men even want to get married anymore? They did not usually get to have sex until marriage. So they would marry. It was the social norm. Now, they have no need. I think they may be realising this 'loop-hole'. They will get sex from women, because women desire it too and are free to do so. But for very different reasons. Is it better to just embrace the union of yourself and the man you want and love, hold to the illusion of trust, real or not so real, and believe that he is not cheating/manipulating/avoiding when he might be? I'm sure so many relationships have lasted decades in this manner. Because perhaps at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, if you are their life partner.

It is sad, because, I adore men. I am not about to preach "all men are scum" and burn my bra. I hold tremendous faith in them... as friends. And as fathers. As brothers. I have grown up with men (brothers, and my dad raised me), my best friends have mostly been male, and as friends, they can be absolutely fantastic. Better than female friends often, in my experience. Loyal, protective and straight-to-the-point, won't go behind your back. But as PARTNERS... I just can't fathom it. Often it feels like there is no 'right' person at all, just one that you can hope has the greatest percentage of NOT treating you too indispensably. Or one that treats you beautifully, but is more a friend than a romantic partner. I'm not sure which I'd prefer.

Maybe we're supposed to accept that this is just how men are, and it is their nature, just as they will all look at porn, and no matter how much a woman cries about it, they will do it anyway, but quietly as to not hurt her feelings. Maybe this is the true measure of a 'good' partner. I wish I could find love, LASTING love.... but perhaps... just perhaps... it doesn't look like it used to, in our parent's day. Perhaps we're looking for the wrong thing.

 
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Old 08-24-2007, 08:51 AM   #2
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

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Originally Posted by ~Tyger~ View Post
What do you think.... are men really ever monogamous? It is not in their nature to do so, biologically speaking. Do they all cheat, or lie to avoid confrontations and dramas, but some do it discretely, and not often, and are generally quite nice people, while some are more cruel and obvious about it? Do men even want to get married anymore? They did not usually get to have sex until marriage. So they would marry. It was the social norm. Now, they have no need. I think they may be realising this 'loop-hole'. They will get sex from women, because women desire it too and are free to do so. But for very different reasons. Is it better to just embrace the union of yourself and the man you want and love, hold to the illusion of trust, real or not so real, and believe that he is not cheating/manipulating/avoiding when he might be? I'm sure so many relationships have lasted decades in this manner. Because perhaps at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, if you are their life partner.


Maybe we're supposed to accept that this is just how men are, and it is their nature, just as they will all look at porn, and no matter how much a woman cries about it, they will do it anyway, but quietly as to not hurt her feelings. Maybe this is the true measure of a 'good' partner. I wish I could find love, LASTING love.... but perhaps... just perhaps... it doesn't look like it used to, in our parent's day. Perhaps we're looking for the wrong thing.
I believe there are some good men out there who don't cheat and don't look at porn. I don't believe for one second that we should just accept that they cheat, look at porn, etc. don't settle for that

 
Old 08-24-2007, 09:44 AM   #3
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

Well, first of all, it may sound like a stereotype, but it really is true, or at least the stats bear it out, that men mature much slower than women. We are ready for love, marriage, kids, etc. much sooner than men. We have to be, because our eggs are drying up and we are hitting menopause about the time of life when most men are ready to finally settle down and find someone to really love. I know many many women who are mothers, and not one is still married to the father of their children. Many women have to have that "practice marriage" with the wrong guy before they finally find the right one, if they ever do. Far more men remarry after divorce than women, if you look at the stats. The majority of divorced women never remarry, I think because there aren't any good ones left by the time a woman gets in her 40s and is divorced.

I just think, unfortunately, women are just at a disadvantage when it comes to love. We make up 52% of the population, so already, there are more women than men, which naturally means some of us are going to be left out, plus how hard it is to not only find an available man, but to find a really good man who you really love passionately, who will actually love you back the same way, well, yes, I know just how hard that can be. I've been dating more than most for the last few years, mostly via the intertnet, and I've gone out with literally dozens and dozens of men over the last few years, and not even one second date, not one. I've taken responsibility for all the things I could have been doing to contribute to my failure in finding someone, but I know it's not all me. I keep my mouth shut when it comes to touchy subjects, I'm light, fun, breezy, respectful, I've lost 13 pounds, and still, not even a second date. I have a friend who actually used to be a professional match maker and she states proudly her record, the high percentage of her matched couples who are still married, so she set me up with a couple of guys, one was instantly repelled the second he met me, barely said hi before he turned and started flirting with another woman at the table, and the other, said maybe two words to me, then waited 6 months to tell her he was interested and asked her for my phone number, then never called me, and two months after that, she informed me that he had just gotten married!!!! I laughed for about 10 minutes!

I wish I could give you some hopeful words of wisdom, but I'm 42, and i've been out there all my life, and never, ever, had even one real relationship, despite all the years of nights in clubs, bars, all the hundreds, well now, actually it's in the thousands, of dollars joining singles' clubs and agencies, online dating, etc. And I've never even had a second date, except with one guy who didn't even really want to go out on the first one, there really shouldn't have been a second one, so I don't really count him, and one guy who I dated on and off for two years, maybe you've heard me carry on ad nauseum about him, turned out to have no real feelings for me at all.

So, my whole take on the situation based on my reality, I do think there are a few great guys out there, most of them are already married and will stay married, and as you get older, they get fewer and farther between. I really think that statistic, that after the age of 40, a woman has a better chance at getting hit by lightening than she does of getting married, I really, completely, totally believe it's true. I'm a fairly spiritual, religious person as well, and I personally just don't believe everyone was meant to marry and have kids. It's not in everyone's plan, as sad as that may seem. It's not something we get to choose, because it involved another person's free will. How can you logically say you can choose to go out and find someone if you really wanted to when it requires them choosing you back, which you have absolutely no control over? I think that's ridiculous. I believe it's something we're either blessed with, or not. It happens, but it's not something you can make, create, or go out and get for yourself. It's either in the plan for you or it isn't. I just try not to think about it, or get jealous at all. I think the vast majority of married people don't have what I consider to be a "real" marriage. We see it here on these boards all the time, people whose marriages are falling apart because they were never really in love with their spouse to begin with, and married for reasons other than real, true, passionate love and deep emotional intimacy. It just doesn't happen everyday, and although we would all love to find it, just like we would all love to be princesses or rock stars or cowboys or ballerinas, but not all of us get to be princesses or rock stars. Of course they exist, but only a chosen few get to actually be one for real.

Is it getting worse, I think it probably is. I think both men and women today have much less respect for love, sex, marriage and each other than they used to.

 
Old 08-24-2007, 10:00 AM   #4
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

I also want to add that it seems that there are so many women desperate for a man's company that they will accept any kind of bad behavior from that man just so they can "have one"......pulleeze.....
this may be a more general observation, but I truly believe that until women start expecting......no.....demanding proper treatment and respect, there is no reason for men in general to shape up......why should they? there will be some other desperate women willing to take him as he is.....flaws and all......
women need to stop being so desperate and start demanding respect and until they do, they will keep getting what they get......

 
Old 08-24-2007, 10:23 AM   #5
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

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Originally Posted by rosequartz View Post
I also want to add that it seems that there are so many women desperate for a man's company that they will accept any kind of bad behavior from that man just so they can "have one"......pulleeze.....
this may be a more general observation, but I truly believe that until women start expecting......no.....demanding proper treatment and respect, there is no reason for men in general to shape up......why should they? there will be some other desperate women willing to take him as he is.....flaws and all......
women need to stop being so desperate and start demanding respect and until they do, they will keep getting what they get......
I totally agree with this as well. We have sort of been trained to just accept that this is who and how men are, and if we don't want to be alone, then we must take what we can get. I have a co-worker who keeps hitting on me, and while I never really "dated" him, I met him for drinks after work once, and met him at a club another time, and I just wasn't into him, it just isn't a good fit, plus I feel he did treat me with, well, a bit of disrespect. Not nearly as bad as it could have been, judging by some of the stories I've seen on these boards, but just not what I want to be with. Another co-worker of mine knew this was going on, and one day she heard me whining about being alone and childless and that it makes me sad sometimes and she chided me, making fun and saying it's a choice I'm making because this guy is into me, and I'm getting older and I can't afford "to be too picky." We do get pressure from all angles to just accept and take what we can get, and it's silly, quixotic and childish to wait forever for a prince charming that ain't coming. I told her, sorry, you're talking about the person I'm going to be sharing my life, my home, my bed, my finances and my bathroom with, the first face I see in the morning, the last face I'm going to see at night, my number one confidante, main source of support, comfort, companionship, my best friend, my lover, my life mate, my family, my other half. There is no other place in your life where you should be as picky as you should be when you are choosing this person.

 
Old 08-24-2007, 10:27 AM   #6
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

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Originally Posted by rosequartz View Post
I also want to add that it seems that there are so many women desperate for a man's company that they will accept any kind of bad behavior from that man just so they can "have one"......pulleeze.....
this may be a more general observation, but I truly believe that until women start expecting......no.....demanding proper treatment and respect, there is no reason for men in general to shape up......why should they? there will be some other desperate women willing to take him as he is.....flaws and all......
women need to stop being so desperate and start demanding respect and until they do, they will keep getting what they get......
I think this is completely true. So many people, men included, would much rather be with anyone, than be with someone worthwhile. Then they come to sites like these, or to friends and look for help.

It's also easier to see the bad, b/c people are more intersted in it. Look at the news... how often to you hear about the uplifting stories? How many talk shows feature successful, happy marriages? Very little, b/c the audience is bored by it, they want to see people worse off than they are. The general public takes more notice to bad news than to good.

I don't believe that every man is a cheater and a liar. And I honestly believe that anything applied to a man, can be applied to a woman. I know plently of manipulative woman who treat incredibly nice guys like a door mat. I do believe that every individual has the ability to lie, or mislead.. whether its to gain something, or avoid conflict.. it happens. We all do it.

You will never meet anyone in life, man or woman, who hasn't been burned and scared by a previous relationship. And I think most of those people will go through a period of "giving up" on the gender that hurt them. I've been there. I've sworn every man to he!! after being repetitively hurt by guys. Once some of the pain subsided, and my head was clear again, and I was a bit older and matured, I realized that I was particially at fault for my own pain. Regardless of what a jerk the guy was, how bad he treated me, I kept myself in that situation. He may have been an *****, but I was stupid. 50% to blame for my own hurt.

I still have my issues with men, and trust. And I'm working on it. I lost faith in men for a while, until I met one that proved my way of thinking wrong. He showed me that not all men are horrible, selfish creatures just out for their own pleasure. I'm sure he spits out a few white lies now and again.. but I'm sure I have as well. In the big picture.. he's one of the good ones.

I agree with what a poster said about woman being ready for marriage and family before men. Women do mature faster than men. I think there are some men out there that genuinely want to be with only one woman for the rest of their life. I believe that some men really do want the full commitment, marriage. It may just take them a bit longer to get there.

Don't give up completely. You don't want to shrivle into a bitter old cat lady do ya!?!? haha It's not as if "good men" are a limited supply, and you have to "get yours before they run out!" It just takes some time, patience and effort to find them. Part of that process is giving a few guys a chance. Nothing worth having comes easily.

 
Old 08-24-2007, 11:05 AM   #7
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

Yeah, I think what it comes down to, well, I'll only speak for myself here, but for me, I think what it comes down to is not really a losing faith in men. I mean, my ex was a great guy, he was just a jerk to me because he didn't love me, and I know I know, people get upset if I don't give equal time, yes, women do it too, but in my experience, men do it much more often and much easier, treat someone they are in a relationship with with disrespect and insensitivity, like they're not even a real person. Anyway, my ex is a great husband to his wife, he's not a bad guy, he was just mean to me. This and other experiences in my life make me feel like, it's not a losing faith in men, but losing faith in love. I've looked for love harder than most people, I've tried harder than a lot of people, and it just falls in some people's laps, and others try and try and search and search and turn over every single stone and never find it. It's a losing faith that it will ever happen to me, a losing faith that it's out there for the taking if you just want it bad enough and try for it hard enough. someone says that to me now I have to work hard to keep from slapping them, because it's just so silly. I know, I KNOW it just isn't true. It's NOT out there, and it doesn't matter how much you want it, how much you try for it, or what you do to earn it or find it or get it, for some of us, it will just never happen. So for me, I haven't really lost faith in the male race, I've just lost all faith in the notion that anyone can have love if they want it.

 
Old 08-24-2007, 11:48 AM   #8
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

I think men as a gender are given more choices because we "put up with their *****" so to speak. If we treated them as they treat us they probably wouldn't hang around and if that is the case then good ridence. I like the phrase from Dr. Phil that says "you teach people how to treat you". If we continue to lack self-confidence and stay in relationships we are not happy in, put up with mental abuse and latch on to men, just to say we have one then we will always be unhappy. Men need to be given a reason to be respectful and caring and loving to their partners and that reason is - if they aren't then they will lose us.

Confidence and respect breeds the same, self-pity, low self-esteem and neediness makes the other person feel in power of the relationship meaning they can do what they want and we will still be here. And that goes the same for when the woman controls the relationship.

I have to say there are good men out there, I see them, I have talked to them, I have known them. The women who are married to them know they are good and hang on to them. The men who are single and good are often overlooked by us because they are too "soft". If we opened our minds and our hearts to these men who are few and far between we might know what happiness is. I have seen the epitomy of the good marriage and I have seen bad ones.

I think that men as a gender can be monogomous, caring, loving etc. I think they want to be loved just as much as we do. There is a right woman for every man that can bring him to his knees.

If we are not treated right by men we have to start kicking them to the curb, demand respect and stick to it. When they realize they can't keep a woman they will have to step up and start acting the way a real man should or be alone too.

One thing I have noticed too is that we are the only species where women are fighting for the attention of the male, every other species it is the male that has to attract the female and win the affections of her. In animal species males fight with other males for the affections and don't like the company of other males. In humans it seems to be the opposite which to me throws out evolutionary theories like it is in men's nature to be with lots of women. It think men cheat because they can. There are always selfish, insecure women to cheat with and likewise women to take the cheating man back.

What it really boils down to is if you are being treated like ***** given him a little taste of what that feels like by doing it back to him - if he doesn't like it he can straighten out or get lost at least he will know he isn't going to get away with the behaviour. I find men to be very "can dish it out but can't take it" and selfish as a gender so if they got a little of what was coming to them then they might realize what an a*s they are being.

 
Old 08-24-2007, 01:19 PM   #9
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

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Originally Posted by browneyed-babe View Post
I like the phrase from Dr. Phil that says "you teach people how to treat you". If we continue to lack self-confidence and stay in relationships we are not happy in, put up with mental abuse and latch on to men, just to say we have one then we will always be unhappy. Men need to be given a reason to be respectful and caring and loving to their partners and that reason is - if they aren't then they will lose us.
I usually love Dr. Phil, and I've heard him say this many times, and I do agree to a certain extent, but it's not a true, general blanket statement. I ended a friendship a couple of years ago because even though I held myself up with a great deal of respect and strength, he insisted on treating me with disrespect. You can't always teach people how to treat you. Sometimes people will treat you the way they want to treat you, and you have no other choice but to kick them out of your life, because no matter what you do or how you conduct yourself, they will not change how they treat you. And the threat of losing us only works if they actually care about losing us, which most men really don't. Then know if they lose us, no big loss, there's a ton of younger hotties down at the corner bar. "Shape up or ship out" only matters to someone who really really doesn't want to ship out. It only works if they love you. I don't know, if they don't love or respect you, I really don't think there's much you can do to make them, no matter how you try to teach them to treat you.

I just had a run in with a co-worker about soem coments he made that I viewed as extremely racist. It wasn't a fight, really just a discussion, but just about a subject we both felt strongly about, me one way and he the other, and now the dynamic of our relationship has totally changed, and probably will for life. I felt I would be disrespecting myself if I didn't say anything just sat there and allowed him to make these awful racist comments, but I didn't change his mind one iota, I didn't change anything about him. You can't always make someone respect you by respecting yourself, because some people will always disagree with you, and will think that you don't deserve to respect yourself that way. Nothing you can do with those people.

It would be nice if all women would kick all men to the curb if they cheat, lie, disrespect, etc. but good luck changing all women, getting every woman in the country to get on the feminist bandwagon and kick a man they deeply love to the curb because he cheated.

 
Old 08-24-2007, 01:44 PM   #10
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

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IIt would be nice if all women would kick all men to the curb if they cheat, lie, disrespect, etc. but good luck changing all women, getting every woman in the country to get on the feminist bandwagon and kick a man they deeply love to the curb because he cheated.

it's very disappointing when you have women who are feminists who don't even kick em to the curb.......look at Hillary.....

 
Old 08-24-2007, 02:03 PM   #11
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

My faith in the male race [sic] (I believe "gender" would be the correct term) is just about where it is for females.

Honestly, I see more manipulation on the women's side than I do the men's. Just the other day, I flipped on my computer and right there on a VERY popular home page is "advice" on how to make sure your man stays satisfied with you. The advice boiled down to manipulation, lying and deceit in every example. "Get him jealous; make him wonder; tiptoe in the middle of the night to a computer; even if you have to 'fudge' it, surprise him with some stats on a recent ballgame." This was advice for folks in serious relationships, both married and single.

WTH????

And women expect respect, love and adoration when this is the advice that a few million folks saw on their home page on Tuesday?

Meanwhile, on the national morning news, some dumb dude is suing some flower company because the company sent a receipt for flowers to his wife ... the flowers were for his girlfriend. DOH!

What the guy did was dumb, really, really dumb. But what I read that women should do was downright manipulative and deceitful. I mean, tiptoeing around in the middle of the night, "creating" a history on your computer that your hubby will "hopefully" look at to make him jealous? Encouraging married women to lie and say they're going out for ladies' night for two-for-one appletinis even if they, in fact, just end up at a movie theater alone?

I don't know when it happened, but somewhere along the line, A LOT of women -- much to their detriment -- thought it would be best to be to lower their standards. Here are some things that I see on these boards coming from women (paraphrasing):

"My BF and I went to a strip club together for his b-day, he got a lap dance in front of me and I feel horrible."

"He treats me awful, he never has time for me, we've broken up for the 213th time, but we're going to try to work it out tonight. Also, I told him not to call, he didn't call, and now I'm furious he didn't call."

"I took a vow of marriage, but I think I'm addicted to casual sex with near strangers."

Women these days have ISSUES. And it goes way beyond your man looking at porn. Since a camera has existed, men have been looking at pictures of nude women -- yes, even in our grandparents' day.

Rather than moping, continuing to be the victim and blaming the opposite sex, women need to look at what they've done to contribute to this. Yes, women ... mothers, wives, girlfriends, sisters. Stand up for yourselves. Don't put up with your man "texting" his old girlfriends because you want to appear cool, non-possessive and non-jealous (another recent thread that came to mind). Don't put up with your man stuffing his dollars down some stripper's g-string -- dollars he should be spending on goodies for you or for you both as a couple. And, good God, when it's over, IT'S OVER. Stop running back to him like some sorry puppy dog.

And what is so wrong today with wanting to spend time with your SO? Why all the walking on eggshells, afraid to be classified as "needy" or "clingy"? I'll tell you: I love my man. I've known it since I looked in his eyes almost 20 years ago. I take pride in it, and I take pride in making him FEEL like a man when it comes to me by acting like a lady. I will yell from the tallest building in my town how proud I am and how lucky I am to have him in my life. And "until death do us part," my Friday and Saturday nights are taken.

I would never classify myself as needy or clingy. I'm in love with my very best friend and not ashamed to admit that -- hold the phone now -- I look forward to, enjoy and EXPECT to spend time together.

I was going to end this by saying I'm putting on my flame suit, but, really, just look at these boards, the gossip at the water cooler about who "so-and-so's dating," your own friends' lives. We acted; men responded.

 
Old 08-24-2007, 02:40 PM   #12
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

Well said StenoLady!!

 
Old 08-24-2007, 02:48 PM   #13
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

yes Stenolady now that you mention it, I'm just disappointed with the HUMAN race......it's not necessisarily gender specific....

 
Old 08-24-2007, 03:19 PM   #14
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

men can be so gross

 
Old 08-24-2007, 03:21 PM   #15
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Re: Confronting questions...your faith in the male race.

You said it, StenoLady1. We're all guilty of over-complicating our love lives by indulging in the "tactics" of the media which are presumably written by people who've never successfully held down a relationship and who've seemingly never experienced love. I've seen hundreds of such articles myself. The last thing I ever want to do at any stage in a relationship is play games, let alone by the time I'm married

Hey, ~Tyger~ I'm sorry to hear that you're having a downer on my race lately I know what you mean though: sometimes it does feel like men and women are impossibly different. My general beef is that you folks seem to change your tune about what you want out of life at the drop of a hat. But I haven't lost faith in you! Moreoever, I am more excited by the challenge of finding a good woman than I've ever been. At the moment I am focussing on what I need to do to attract the kind of girl I'm after. I'm working at my studies and my career. As always I'm going to town on my body. If I find a spare five minutes I might engage in conversation with some girls but I'm not putting too much pressure on myself to find a new partner. When it's time she will come into my life.

She'll probably tell me that she's never met anybody like me before, that the sex is the best ever, that she never wants to be with anybody else, that she realises now why things didn't work out with her exes, that she's the happiest she's ever been... and then she'll change her mind But I'm not going to take it personally anymore. I just accept that some people are flakey and a bit too quick to make promises that they can't keep. Men and women alike. I will endeavour to be true to my word. That's the best I can do. That's the best you can do. Nothing's going to change. I think it's best to accept the status quo and make what you can of it
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