you're splitting hairs over "words"......and she is using correct terminology when she refers to "my marriage", she was in fact married......legally.
whether YOU want to acknowledge it as a marriage or not, it was one.....albiet not a great one.
how does she treat YOU.....that's what's important
you're splitting hairs over "words"......and she is using correct terminology when she refers to "my marriage", she was in fact married......legally.
whether YOU want to acknowledge it as a marriage or not, it was one.....albiet not a great one.
how does she treat YOU.....that's what's important
Thanks for your speedy response! Wow, I was just checking to see if I had any typos in my post and I've already got a comment.
I see what you're saying about focusing on the present, but I'm not so sure that I'm "splitting hairs over words." Marriage happens with words, whether it's "I do" or the print on a legal marriage license. If you're talking about marriage, at all, you're talking about words. That said, I don't talk to her about "my relationship" when I'm talking about any of my past relationships, because those are all over. How do you think she would feel if I talked to her about "my girlfriend" and I was talking about someone else? I'd expect her to be hurt by those words. Wouldn't you?
i see what you're saying, but what IS your relationship with this woman, or do you even have one? You say you're madly in love with her.......
does that mean you're in a relationship?
does she even KNOW you're madly in love with her?
does she see you as a friend?
there are some unanswered questions here......
I remember your other posts about this and I agree with Rose. Whether or not she refers to her previous marriage as such I really truly think you are making way too much of a big deal out of something that doesn't even concern you. I think you're needlessly obsessing. It doesn't matter what she calls it or how she refers to it because it's HER deal, not yours. Had it all happened to you instead of her then it would have been your past to which you are referring and your right to call it whatever you want to call it.
The bottom line is that if you're going to keep obsessing over something that had nothing at all to do with you, she may end up getting tired of hearing you complain about it. I know I would if I was her. Just let it go, man. It's not yours to decide what label to put on it and it's in the past. Move on and concentrate on what is happening right now in front of you because that is what is important.
The devil is in the details. The more you tell, the more complex it becomes. So when she told you she loved you 3 days before marrying someone else, did you tell her you loved her as well and ask her not to go forward with the marriage?
Trying to understand if you rejoiced in the news or left her hanging. Another detail that would matter.
It doesn't matter what she says about it now because it won't change what happened. The fact that you are so completely hung up on semantics shows to me that maybe this relationship isn't going to work for you. If you are going to continue to harp on this constantly and are not capable of letting it go just because she won't refer to it by the terms that you think she should, then that's just weird but also it means that you're unable to have a relationship with her. Maybe you'd be better off finding someone with a clean slate because this kind of obsession with a person's past tends to fester and grow and will likely be the end of your relationship sometime in the future anyway. Why wait when the outcome is more or less predetermined? I still think you're splitting hairs over nothing and need to get past it but since you can't seem to do that I think you need to rethink whether you should even be in this relationship in the first place.
I'm not trying to be mean here but I don't see any way around this for you. You're too stubborn to just let it go like you should so I don't see how you can possibly resolve this to a level that will make you satisfied with the outcome. That ex husband of hers will always be an ex husband. That was a legal marriage whether or not she was into it. People get married to people they don't love or shouldn't be with EVERY day! She is no different from all those people. But I bet their new significant others after the divorce aren't sitting there demanding they never refer to their ex as such or refer to their prior marriage as such because that's the kind of thing that doesn't make any difference to majority of people. It's not important enough to keep harping on it. I still think you need to just let it go and take some time to be grateful that you're finally with this person who you've been pining for , for so long. You are spending so much time criticizing and not appreciating that you finally got what you wanted, which is her. Isn't that worth more to you?
Okay, this is just making me EXTREMELY frustrated, and I think I am all done with looking for advice on this board. I'm sorry Kszan, but your position on this is insensitive and, quite frankly, very cruel. First off, you have lots of things WRONG. I said the problem is that she calls the guy "my husband" and not "my EX husband," which I find very troubling and insensitive to my feelings.
Get it? I do NOT mean this as a personal attack, but it doesn't seem like you care much at all about how things make me feel. You don't seem to care about my emotional reactions to how she says things that obscure the closure that I'm worried she doesn't fully have.
Would you object if a girlfriend was in here troubled by her current boyfriend referring to someone he broke up with 4 years ago as "my girlfriend"? What if he was discussing "my relationship" when he's talking about something that is OVER and not what he is currently supposed to be focused on??? How about if she felt uncomfortable that he kept mementos from this relationship around??? I simply do NOT agree with you that anyone's partner should be authorized to run roughshod through their feelings and retreat to logical arguments for why they are authorized to do so. Emotions don't respond to logic. Does she have a right to call that "my marriage," or call the guy "the love of my life" or to say whatever she wants about it??? YES, absolutely. Nobody's putting her in jail for that. But is it too much to ask her not to say things that hurt me??? Should she be sensitive to the feelings of someone she loves?
Sorry, but I'm not a child and I am not going to be spanked and sent to bed because I came here asking for advice about how to approach my partner about things that trouble me. They trouble me, and that's a fact. Just as much as her previous marriage is a fact. So if you're not willing to help me work on that and can only tell me to shut up and ignore my feelings, then I have no use for you.
Okay, AllandNothing. No, I didn't try to stop the wedding, I didn't think it was my place. I told her that I loved her too, but I thought she should do what she thought was right. I didn't think 3 months of stolen moments gave me the right to tell her what to do with her life.
Last edited by sportivetricks; 11-30-2012 at 10:06 AM.
I feel like the way your questions were worded made it appear as though you were more upset about her wording than about anything else but now I think it makes more sense now. It's not about what words she is using for you, the bottom line for you is that you're afraid she isn't completely over her marriage and that's what's upsetting you. Is that what you're saying? If that's what you're saying then I guess my next question is, if it was truly just a marriage in name only and not serious, then would you need to worry about her not being over it?
Or are you saying that she is using these words to describe her marriage on purpose to rub it in your face or something? Is that what you're worried about? If that's the case then I think you really do need to reevaluate this relationship because she shouldn't be doing that.
Even though I think I understand better now what the issue is, about you being worried she isn't completely over her previous marriage, I still think that if she really didn't love this other guy in the first place then she probably couldn't care less about him so you probably don't have to worry about that.
I don't know, I still feel a little bit like I'm zigging and you're zagging and we're still missing each others' points here but maybe you see better what I'm trying to say because I feel like I have a little better handle on your issue now.
i agree with you that she is being insensitive.....
now, is this something you've noticed in all the time you've known her? her insensitivity? have you noticed it with other people, not just yourself? I'm wondering if she's just "that way", and the world revolves around her and she doesn't really concern herself about things that don't "affect her" (not that your feelings shouldn't affect her, they should!). I'm thinking she's not as great as you would like her to be......could it be you've put her on a pedestal because so far she doesn't seem to have a lot of integrity......went thru with a marriage that she didn't mean......now with someone else (you)and she's not that concerned with this current partners feelings either......
could she be a narcissiisst? I'd rethink this if I were you, take a step back and try to look at it from a distance and get a little perspective.
Okay, AllandNothing. No, I didn't try to stop the wedding, I didn't think it was my place. I told her that I loved her too, but I thought she should do what she thought was right. I didn't think 3 months of stolen moments gave me the right to tell her what to do with her life.
So I get it now. You told her you felt the same and she choose to go on with the marriage. That makes a big difference to me. You see, if I told someone I loved him and he just said "thanks" -- you know, blew it off, I certainly would not change my marriage plans. But knowing she loved you and you loved her and her going on with the wedding does show a level of immaturity.
You have the right to talk this out with her. I'd suggest you make sure you have your thoughts together because it will almost have to be a once and done conversation. Clearly you need closure on this subject or you can't go forward with her. It is odd to me that she seems to be sort of stuck in this past, but it was a big mistake and sometimes those are hard to get over. They can be even harder to get over when you knew going in it was wrong. She might be concerned that history is going to repeat, questioning herself. She needs to tell you. If you can get her to open up and have a gentle, reasoned conversation, it might help her out a lot too.
I feel like the way your questions were worded made it appear as though you were more upset about her wording than about anything else but now I think it makes more sense now. It's not about what words she is using for you, the bottom line for you is that you're afraid she isn't completely over her marriage and that's what's upsetting you. Is that what you're saying? If that's what you're saying then I guess my next question is, if it was truly just a marriage in name only and not serious, then would you need to worry about her not being over it?
Or are you saying that she is using these words to describe her marriage on purpose to rub it in your face or something? Is that what you're worried about? If that's the case then I think you really do need to reevaluate this relationship because she shouldn't be doing that.
Even though I think I understand better now what the issue is, about you being worried she isn't completely over her previous marriage, I still think that if she really didn't love this other guy in the first place then she probably couldn't care less about him so you probably don't have to worry about that.
I don't know, I still feel a little bit like I'm zigging and you're zagging and we're still missing each others' points here but maybe you see better what I'm trying to say because I feel like I have a little better handle on your issue now.
Okay, okay. I am sorry for getting so frustrated, but this whole thing is very emotional for me, and I had to take a little time to get away and cool off. You were simply trying to help me, and I flipped out on you. PLEASE accept my apology.
I'll post replies to everyone who was kind enough to respond to me, but I think I should definitely start with you, Kszan. Yes, I am the one reporting on this situation, so if something didn't come across very clearly, I am the one to blame. Yes, I over-emphasized the issue about the words she uses to describe her previous marriage, and I am more worried that she is "not over" her previous marriage (in some very strange ways).
No, I don't think she really even liked the guy that much, and the entirety of their "marriage" was pretty much like the kind of "marriage" that someone who is already separated has. That is, legal and technical, but that's about it.
But, I might be zigging, and you might be zagging when it comes to what we mean by "over it." I'm pretty sure that the entire reason she was even dating this guy for multiple years was that she felt pressure from her family to settle down and marry someone, and she was convinced this guy was never going to propose. I mean, I'm sure that she liked him as a person in many ways, but I think when you're running from that kind of pressure and you know someone who you feel certain will never expect more than one day at a time of dating from you, who will never pressure you into any commitment . . . that, well, that can be very attractive. But he completely blindsided her with an aggressive proposal after 3 or 4 years of dating (From what I understand, that dating was a kind of detached, it's easy, maintain-the-status-quo kind of affair, and the proposal was the result of strong pressure from the guy's family. Oh, and that she was taken by surprise after that long is telling, right?). I don't think she was prepared to say no and dump him, and so then, as they say, the train started rolling. It was clearly a bad move, but by the time she felt absolutely sure she didn't want to do it, it already felt like too much to stop, she went through with it, and just one reason this "marriage commitment" was meaningless is that she wants to have children, and the guy swore up and down that he did not. (She also knows he meant it, and she didn't expect him to change.) In sum, then, I'm not threatened by feelings that she was more in love with this guy than me, or that she is still living in the ruins of some dream that didn't work out. Nothing like that, really.
Instead, I'm worried that she's just too plain messed up when it comes to relationships. Coming clean, even a little bit, about her past seems like a good way to start getting some things in order. Some things that, frankly, I'm not quite sure she's ever really had in order. So, when you ask if she's trying to "rub it in my face," I'm not sure she's doing that so much as she is trying to insist on something that never really was. Because, well, she's ashamed that it never really was. That's what wasn't in order on her mistaken "wedding day," and it's what's still not in order now.
I want to be very clear here. She went through with a wedding, and two years of marriage, when she KNEW that she didn't want to be with the other person. She cheated, from day one. I don't expect her to advertise those things, but I do expect her to find some way of putting things in perspective. I have dated people before who had previous marriages, and, like anyone who has made a mistake that can't be hidden, they had very clear ideas about why they made that mistake and how they intended to never do the same. I guess I just need her to do that. If you "marry" someone when you, at best, are hoping that you'll figure out how to really mean it afterwards, quickly discover that has no chance of working, and are now, finally, at a time and place where it's over and done with, and you have a chance to start over with someone you always wanted to be with . . . is it better to keep saying that you meant it and it didn't work out, or to just start saying something like "I did it for the wrong reasons, and I know what I want marriage to be, now"?
Some of my friends keep asking me why I keep putting so much effort into this. "It shouldn't be so much work," they say. Simple answer, I love her. I love her more than anyone I have ever known in my life.
I'm not sure if I am being clear, and I want to respond to AllandNothing and rosequartz, too, but I thought I would try to re-open this dialogue. I can keep trying, and hopefully not throw any more hissy fits. My apologies, again, for getting sensitive a week ago.
Last edited by sportivetricks; 12-10-2012 at 06:59 AM.
i agree with you that she is being insensitive.....
now, is this something you've noticed in all the time you've known her? her insensitivity? have you noticed it with other people, not just yourself? I'm wondering if she's just "that way", and the world revolves around her and she doesn't really concern herself about things that don't "affect her" (not that your feelings shouldn't affect her, they should!). I'm thinking she's not as great as you would like her to be......could it be you've put her on a pedestal because so far she doesn't seem to have a lot of integrity......went thru with a marriage that she didn't mean......now with someone else (you)and she's not that concerned with this current partners feelings either......
could she be a narcissiisst? I'd rethink this if I were you, take a step back and try to look at it from a distance and get a little perspective.
Thanks for the input, Rose.
Basically, no, I have not put her on a pedestal at all. She's not perfect, not by a long shot. But I love her, and I'm quite confident in that love because her flaws don't change my feelings about her at all. Loving someone, I think, requires that you don't merely accept someone's imperfections, but that you love them FOR their imperfections because that is a part of who they are. (And, of course, you should equally love them for all the good things about them, too.)
I think she has difficulty managing her own emotions and being truly compassionate about those of people she cares about. Yes, she's insensitive, but that insensitivity stems results from a kind of desperation about handling her own feelings. For example, she was terribly frightened to call off a wedding she didn't want, so instead of confronting and owning up to those feelings, she made things worse by trying to ignore them. Now, she is deeply ashamed of what she did, so she refuses to make sense of it or find a way to put it into some kind of context that is, at least, close to the truth.
I guess, then, what I'm asking about is if it's possible for someone to improve on this kind of thing. I don't think her strategies have been very healthy for her so far, and I'm not sure how long I can stay in this when her actions, past and present, cause me so much pain. But, like I said, I really, really love this person.
Last edited by sportivetricks; 12-11-2012 at 10:54 AM.
. I'm not sure how long I can stay in this when her actions, past and present, cause me so much pain.
That might be your answer right there. Loving someone is great but it's not enough to sustain a relationship long term when there are already doubts about the future of that relationship due to past issues.
Additionally, you've identified that she has issues with how to work through her issues in a healthy way. That's a real problem that could potentially cause a lot of problems in your relationship down the road. These are the kinds of things you need to look for before getting married. How do they handle arguments, are they able to have open communication about things to resolve it, do they have any problems with passive aggressive or overly aggressive behavior, can they admit when they are wrong and learn from those mistakes. Etc. there's a long list of things that should be considered before you decide to marry someone. And if that person isn't able to fulfill those requirements then don't waste your time. Spinning your wheels when you're not married is one thing cause you can walk away anytime. But after you get married it's a lot more frustrating and a lot less flexible if the problems you're having now don't get resolved first.
So I get it now. You told her you felt the same and she choose to go on with the marriage. That makes a big difference to me. You see, if I told someone I loved him and he just said "thanks" -- you know, blew it off, I certainly would not change my marriage plans. But knowing she loved you and you loved her and her going on with the wedding does show a level of immaturity.
You have the right to talk this out with her. I'd suggest you make sure you have your thoughts together because it will almost have to be a once and done conversation. Clearly you need closure on this subject or you can't go forward with her. It is odd to me that she seems to be sort of stuck in this past, but it was a big mistake and sometimes those are hard to get over. They can be even harder to get over when you knew going in it was wrong. She might be concerned that history is going to repeat, questioning herself. She needs to tell you. If you can get her to open up and have a gentle, reasoned conversation, it might help her out a lot too.
And finally, AllandNothing, my response to your wise words.
Yes, her actions in the past showed immaturity and even a kind of recklessness. Trust me, I am NOT making excuses for her, but I am pretty sure she was feeling a lot of passive-pressure from her family to "settle down." I do know that she had been actively chastised for having overly "romantic" or "idealistic" versions of who she was hoping to find, and she was told, outright, that she should have married someone she decided to break up with. I'm pretty sure that the thing she found most attractive about the next guy was that he said he never wanted a marriage and that he never wanted children. Maybe she didn't consciously plan it out, but it must have felt comforting that he wasn't going to expose her to more admonishment (direct or indirect) from her family. Of course, it didn't work out that way. There are some other factors in this, once again no excuses, TERRIBLE decision on her part, but I don't want to give the whole story. Basically, I think she felt pressured and she felt like there was no escape that wouldn't lead to pain and disappointment. Again, bad decision.
Yes, I have to talk this out with her. I'm not sure that a one-and-done will do, though. I'm hoping that we can have an adult conversation, but it's really more about correcting and keeping corrected a few core problems that are here in our present relationship. The one I've already mentioned here is how she continues to insist upon a lie that she told years ago. I'm sorry, and I'll probably get criticized on here for saying so, but I need for her to distinguish between the past marriage (which she says was "not real") and the future marriage I hope to have with her (which I hope she'll see as real). I'm not sure what shape or form that will take, but if I have children with her one day and they ask me about Mom's past . . . I want to be able to tell them the truth: that she got married because she felt pressure to do so and that she learned something from that mistake.
Other than that, I just want her to learn how to manage her emotions. For instance, if we get engaged, and she has massive doubts, doesn't want to do it, and doesn't think it will be "real." Then I want for her to feel like she can express those doubts and fears . . . not like they are overly-dramatic liabilities to be ashamed of.
So I get it now. You told her you felt the same and she choose to go on with the marriage. That makes a big difference to me. You see, if I told someone I loved him and he just said "thanks" -- you know, blew it off, I certainly would not change my marriage plans. But knowing she loved you and you loved her and her going on with the wedding does show a level of immaturity.
You have the right to talk this out with her. I'd suggest you make sure you have your thoughts together because it will almost have to be a once and done conversation. Clearly you need closure on this subject or you can't go forward with her. It is odd to me that she seems to be sort of stuck in this past, but it was a big mistake and sometimes those are hard to get over. They can be even harder to get over when you knew going in it was wrong. She might be concerned that history is going to repeat, questioning herself. She needs to tell you. If you can get her to open up and have a gentle, reasoned conversation, it might help her out a lot too.
And finally, AllandNothing, my response to your wise words.
Yes, her actions in the past showed immaturity and even a kind of recklessness. Trust me, I am NOT making excuses for her, but I am pretty sure she was feeling a lot of passive-pressure from her family to "settle down." I do know that she had been actively chastised for having overly "romantic" or "idealistic" versions of who she was hoping to find, and she was told, outright, that she should have married someone she decided to break up with. It's repeating something I said a post or two ago, but I'm pretty sure that the thing she found most attractive about the next guy was that he said he never wanted a marriage and that he never wanted children. Maybe she didn't consciously plan it out, but it must have felt comforting that he wasn't going to expose her to more admonishment (direct or indirect) from her family. Of course, it didn't work out that way. There are some other factors in this (once again no excuses) TERRIBLE decision on her part, but I think this is the most relevant. Basically, I think she felt pressured and she felt like there was no way to escape that wouldn't lead to pain and disappointment. She felt like she was maybe just "being crazy" and everyone had similar doubts before a wedding. Again, bad decision.
Yes, I have to talk this out with her. I'm not sure that a one-and-done will do, though. I'm hoping that we can have an adult conversation, but it's really more about correcting and keeping corrected a few core problems that are here in our present relationship. The one I've already mentioned here is how she continues to insist upon a lie that she told years ago. I'm sorry, and I'll probably get criticized on here for saying so, but I need for her to distinguish between the past marriage (which she says was "not real") and the future marriage I hope to have with her (which I hope she'll see as VERY real). I'm not sure exactly what shape or form that will take, but if I have children with her one day and they ask me about their Mom's past . . . I want to be able to tell them the truth: that she got married before me when she knew it wasn't the right person because she felt pressure to do so and that she learned something productive from that mistake.
Other than that, I just want her to learn how to manage her emotions, because I think that's really the place where she suffers from an immaturity or weakness. For instance, if we get engaged, and she has massive doubts, doesn't want to do it, and doesn't think it will be "real." Then I want for her to feel like she can express those doubts and fears . . . not like they are overly-dramatic liabilities to be ashamed of.
