My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

I would love some advice. My best friend has a 15 year old daughter, "K"
K is beautiful, smart, fun and a really good kid. Last year, she befriended her 22 year old field hockey coach. We thought it was fine because she was basically giving her rides to practices and games. They have since become inseparable.
They spend every free minute together, sleepovers etc. the friend comes over to their house at 10pm on a school night & stays until 2-3am. I think it's a bad, bad idea. The friend seems like a nice person but I have no idea why she would want her best friend to be a 15 year old. She's a bartender of all things. I've told my friend many times that I don't like it at all and she doesn't seem to think its bad. She doesn't think K would ever drink underage or do anything she isn't supposed to. Also, K came to her parents last summer and said she's been cutting.
She's cutting because of a eating disorder. My friend has her in counseling but refuses to question her at all about what she's had to eat or about her weight.'If she says her weight is healthy, or she's not cutting, my friend believes her because she doesn't think she would lie to her. I'm very concerned about all of this and I know it's not my business and I do keep my mouth shut most of the time. Is she handeling all of this well? We've been best friends all our lives and K is like a daughter to me & I'm scared for her.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Hello.

Have you expressed your concerns about K to your friend? I can understand your friend's desire to trust and respect the privacy of her daughter. However, K may not be completely honest with her mother about difficult and delicate matters like struggling with cutting and an eating disorder. Oftentimes there are a lot of stigma and shame associated with these types of behavior.

When I started cutting as a teenager, it's a habit I did in secret and tried to keep it hidden as much as possible. I didn't want to talk to anyone about it for fear of being judged, embarrassed or stigmatized. Even now it's something that's really hard for me to talk about in person. It's only when I feel I can really trust someone and I know they understand the reasons why people cut do I dare talk about my experiences with cutting.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Hello back ;)
I have expressed my concern many, many times. I've told her what websites I've been on learning about cutting and ED's. she cuts me off pretty quickly. I've told her that, of course people are going to lie, that's how they can keep doing what they want or need to do so badly. Last summer when K told them she had been cutting and stopped. They pretty much left it as ok, she told us and told us she has stopped, of course we're going to trust her.
I was reading pro Ana sites and there were a lot of things that screamed out to me. I told my friend about it, what the website was, etc. a few weeks later, I asked her if she did any research and she said "no". I think she's just willing to believe anything she says. One of K's friends came to my friend recently and said K still cutting and really never stopped. They got her a great therapist but don't ever talk to her about these things. She says its just too upsetting & she's seeing a therapist. End of story... Thanks for replying! I would appreciate any information you are willing to share. I know pretty much nothing about cutting :(

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Something important to realize I think is cutting is frequently done as a maladaptive coping strategy. I think something crucial your friend should acknowledge is cutting can be a very difficult habit to abstain from, especially if her daughter is going through a stressful time and doesn't feel comfortable talking with her mom and therapist. I haven't cut in nearly a year, but when I'm very stressed out, the urge to cut comes back in full force.

I think an important part of therapy is learning how to better cope and become more resilient with one's problems. Ideally, I think her therapist should be working towards identifying K's reasons for cutting, what triggers her to cut and what alternative coping strategies she can use instead of cutting. In order for this to happen though, K has to at least want to stop cutting. Wanting to stop cutting doesn't mean she still won't cut, but it at least means she is willing to work with her therapist to change her behavior.

There are a lot of reasons why people may cut:[LIST][*]To externalize and/or to distract themselves from the emotional pain they're feeling.[*]To punish themselves when they feel guilty or worthless.[*]To feel alive when they feel empty or emotionally numb.[*]The sight of blood and/or rush of endorphins calms them.[*]To gain a sense of control when one otherwise feels powerless over their life or emotions[/LIST]
This list isn't inclusive but hopefully it helps you with understanding why people cut.

A particular book about cutting I recommend reading is Skin Game: A Memoir by Caroline Kettlewell.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Thanks so much for replying and all of the great information!
I will order the book and see if I can gently pass on the information.
Do people typically cut because something horrendous happened to them or would someone cut for something like being overwhelmed with homework, etc?
We just can't think of anything in her life that is so horrible that she would want to hurt herself. If something is that bad, she may not tell her parents.. Of course, we don't know much about this. I know it sometimes relates to eating disorders. This poor kid eats almost nothing. Thanks again for your help.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

[QUOTE=Stupid feet;5075593]
Do people typically cut because something horrendous happened to them or would someone cut for something like being overwhelmed with homework, etc?
[/QUOTE]

Either one is a possibility. Cutting can be used as a coping mechanism to handle unpleasant memories and emotions from a traumatic event, or from the daily stressors of life. A problem with cutting is it can be a very addicting and prevailing habit. Cutting could start as a response to a person's difficulty with coping with the grief and shame of a traumatic event, but later on be used to mitigate the frustration and guilt of getting a bad grade on a test or a minor argument with family or friends.

[QUOTE=Stupid feet;5075593]
We just can't think of anything in her life that is so horrible that she would want to hurt herself. If something is that bad, she may not tell her parents..
[/QUOTE]

It's possible you might never find anything in her life that's so horrible that would make her want to cut. The problem is K may very well have a different perspective on herself and her life than you and her mother may have. If K is suffering from depression, low self-esteem, poor self-image, etc., that's reason enough for her to cut. I think it's important to remember even though you and her mother see her as beautiful, smart, fun and a really good kid, she might feel the exact opposite about herself. She might be cutting as a way of coping with these horrible feelings she might be having.

Her eating disorder might also be a driving factor for her cutting. If she gains weight or doesn't lose weight as quickly as she wants to for example, that may be reason for her to cut herself.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Thank you again for your reply. I meant to mention in my last post that its wonderful that you haven't cut in over a year. It must take a lot of self restraint, I hope that you are very proud of yourself! K is super model beautiful but I realize that sometimes people see themselves differently when there are issues. It's just so overwhelming and for people that really don't have any experience at all with cutting, we just don't understand and don't know what to do. Unfortunately, my hands are tied. I don't want to lose my friend. I feel like she doesn't want a lot of advice from me. She will tell me little things here and there but I pretty much have to listen without adding too much. She is very, very sensitive about this and part of me thinks she doesn't want to deal with it. I'm glad they found a great therapist that K really seems to click with. I'm also very, very worried about the friendship with a adult woman, 7 years older that has become too controlling and domineering for my taste. I'm shocked that my friend lets this go on. It's not healthy for a 15 year old child to spend all of her free time with a 22 year woman old in my opinion. The 22 year old sees K as her peer, why wouldn't she give her drinks, hang out with 22 year old guys, etc?
Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Your welcome. Feel free to ask anymore questions you may have.

Having the self-restraint has helped with me abstaining from cutting, but I think so has becoming more emotionally resilient and more accepting of myself.

I think I can see why your friend would find this a very difficult issue to discuss with anyone. I imagine she feels helpless and maybe even ashamed of herself as a parent of a daughter who is cutting herself.

I do hope K's therapist is successful with helping K get through whatever it is that she is struggling with. With the right guidance and support, hopefully K's cutting will decrease and eventually stop altogether.

I agree with your concerns about K spending all her free time with a 22 year old woman.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Hi, in your experience, how do people start to cut? Is it something a friend or someone has talked about? Can you get sooo upset and maybe see your razor sitting on the counter, grab it & cut yourself? I just wonder how someone would know that it might make them feel better. I was just texting with my friend "F", she said she was over the 22 yo. I asked if she was at the point where she was ready to forbade K from seeing her anymore & she said "I don't think that's the right thing to do at all, I don't want her to want her to want to see her more than she already does" if it were me, I would have stopped that when it became more that a coach/athlete thing. I think it's crazy to allow that..

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

People may start to cut when they're in continual emotional distress and are desperate to find a substitution or outlet for the pain they feel inside. Physical pain in and of itself may not feel good, but it certainly can be preferable to whatever horrible feelings they're feeling. Thus, the physical pain temporarily distracts the mind from feeling miserable. Another possible motive to cut is the rush of the body's endorphins. People may also cut because they feel worthless and that they deserve the physical pain.

People may start to cut because they heard about it from other people, but I don't think just anyone will start cutting from hearing about it. Those who have good support systems and healthy coping mechanisms I think are far less likely to engage in cutting than those who don't. Cutting doesn't even have to start with a razor. It could be as basic as applying sufficient pressure with one's fingernails to make scratch marks on their arms or legs.

I hope what I wrote makes sense. If not, let me know what I need to clarify.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Just a few points that come to me about your post...you don't know everything that goes on in the family of your friend. They have their daughter with a therapist, that does not make me think they are in denial of their daughter's issues. Most therapeutic relationships involve the parents and loved ones taking a bit of a back seat. The worst thing your friend could do is to hassle K about her problems. That is probably why she does not accept your confrontational advice. Secondly, most parents of teenagers know that forbidding their kid to see a friend will only drive this friendship underground and make the friend more desirable and the daughter fight to the death to defend her choice. The friendship will run its course sooner or later. Maybe the girl needs an older friend at this point in her life. Her mother is doing all the right things, IMO. You cannot bully or force a teenager to stop doing whatever this way. In the end it all comes down to trusting her and her continuing search for health. Thirdly, any pressure and "discipline" of the type you recommend will probably drive the daughter into more drastic behaviour, like leaving home. With your friend's loving trusting attitude, K feels safe at home and able tow work through her stuff in a climate of non-judgemental support. Do not be judgemental of your friend's methods, she sounds like a good patient mom. Sera

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

I'm certainly not aware of any "confrontational" advice I have given nor am I recommending any pressure or "discipline" I said that I mostly listen. When I asked today If she was ready to forbid the relationship, it's because recently, she has said several times the older friend is becoming controlling to a 15 year old girl and that she doesn't like the whole thing. Fortunately, I do know enough about what's going on in their house to know that K would never consider running away because her parents said they don't want her to see a girl 7 years older that's trying to control her. I don't think "most parents" would turn their heads and say nothing when their underage child is in a inappropriate relationship with a adult. She is a wonderful mom, I just said she's not making the best decisions right now. Before she started this therapist, she took K's word about not cutting and shockingly enough, she had been cutting the whole time. A worried friend told her mother, not the 22 year old that knew and not K. I have tried to be nothing but a good friend and "2nd mom" as K calls me.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

I feel that when you are trying to figure out reasons as to why "K" is cutting can't be based off of traumatic events that you know about. if it is related to homework, it's not just homework itself; it could be the stress of homework based on expectations of parents and/or teachers. Adults and parents often forget what it feels like to be 15 years old in high school because that time seems so trivial compared to holding down a job and caring for other people, putting others lives and well-being before yourself.
I don't know anyone with an eating disorder who has never self harmed, the two come hand in hand. People with eating disorders often suffer from body dimorphic disorder, and hate themselves and externalizing that hatred to there physical body and feel that their worth is based on how they look. its a very scary disorder especially since sufferers hide it and don't talk about it.
i understand that you are very worried about your friends daughter, maybe you should talk to "K" and tell her that you are there for her to talk to and support her if she ever needs help. "K" probably doesn't know or understand that she has such a caring adult on her side, such as yourself, and that might be what she really needs.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Thank you statikatt for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time to offer advice in a nice way.

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

I hope the information I shared was a little helpful. Because I've been on both sides of that situation. I hope everything works out and that you are able to accept whatever happens in the end. Best of luck! :)

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Do you mind me asking how you've been on both sides of the situation & how it turned out?
I completely understand if you tell me no. I really don't know anything about either of these issues and my friend doesn't either. It's hard to try and offer advice to someone when you're clueless about the subject :/

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Hello, This post caught my eye, and I wanted to comment on the"coach" and K's relationship.

It sounds as if K is getting mixed messages from her mother, if she is not managing her cutting and eating disorder, while allowing this adult so much access to her daughter. This is no time for the mother to allow others to take the reins in her daughters life. It seems as if the mother could be in denial about how potentially serious this whole thing is for her daughter.

It sounds as if both the mother and daughter need to be under the guidance of a good therapist to help them navigate this phase of both their lives. It is high time the mother step into the drivers seat and take charge of this tragedy waiting to happen.

I applaud you for your concern for your friend and her daughter. The coach is just one too many right now, and her time and relationship with K should be limited to its best function, if there is one. Is this woman aware of K's issues, and her treatment?

It sounds as if K has never needed her mother more than she does right now in her life. Are you able to speak to K yourself privately and ask her if you can help? Maybe you could gain some idea about K's feelings and her idea of what her needs are.

Could there be trauma underlying all this that the mother is in denial over? Where is the father in the picture?

In this case, it is K who needs the attention from someone who can best help her through. I would really want to jump in and get some action going, if I could. Is that something you could do as well? I hope it does not take a horrible turn to get this young woman the help she needs. You sound like you have her best interest in mind. Please let us know what goes on from here. I can see how tricky this whole thing could be to get involved in, but you are laready involved...I think the answer is in your heart, and you just have to think about it to see the answer. Best to you...

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

I used to cut because i felt trapped by my family situation and the stress and pressure of my parents and teachers expecting too much of me. I didn't cut for very long, but I ended up getting into lots of fights with my parents, and my mum was one of the main reasons I would hurt myself (it was a twisted warped notion that i was getting back at her for all the emotional stress she caused me, and the clincher was that she didn't know anything about it), I had also suffered from anorexia in middle school and those tendencies pop up whenever i'm extremely stressed out or emotionally/mentally unstable or at my wits end. Soon after i stopped cutting I ended up being sent to the ER for suicide watch and all the doctors and social workers had to check and see all my scars... it was a giant jolt back to reality for me and I really started working on getting better afterwards.
I still have friends who are self harmers, and I've had to grow up much faster than I should have because my older sister has also self harmed due to serious mental issues. So i have had to grow up and out of it since she is in a much more vulnerable situation, I end up being the "older sister" most of the time when i do interact with her.
And with my friends who still self harm, it seems pointless to me to self harm now that i look back on it, but i know that i can't change their behaviors so i just do my best to make sure that they're safe and that they have someone they can talk to. Self harmers are very sensitive people, and are ashamed of what they do. So any pressure from people to stop or dismiss it can make it much worse... again, it's like an addiction. its their only coping mechanism that they think works.
But its an endless cycle. They get upset and stressed out to an extent that they can't deal with it, and so they cut. even though they know they will feel twice as bad afterwards, but for that short moment they are distracted and don't feel that emotional turmoil. and it happens over and over and over again.
I don't recommend you or your friend to talk to K specifically about her self harming, but to just let her know that you are there to listen if she needs someone to talk to. That you're there if she needs a hug. Also, i urge you to encourage your friend to check in with the therapist (since K is under 18, her mum can check in with the therapist to see how things are going). i also think it would be a good idea for K's mum to be part of the process of k getting better because its a group effort, no one can do it alone.
Also with the eating disorder, I don't really know if there is much you personally can do, you can't force her to eat and that will only make things worse). I know friends who have gone to inpatient rehab for eating disorders and those that i know who have are much better now and have regular eating habits and better self esteem and self images. it's either something you overcome by yourself when you are ready to accept that it needs to stop, or it gets to the point where the people around you have to check you into rehab or a hospital.
I'm sorry if some of this sounds glum, but it is. Hopefully this is partially due to teen rebellion and that horrible stage everyone goes through in high school and it will slowly start to get better, but if it isn't than i would simply keep an eye on her and watch her progress. (sorry that was really long).

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

I absolutely agree that the mother is in denial. K has even said that everytime she talks to her mom, mom bursts out in tears and she doesn't want to make her sad. The father is around, married to my friend and is a good, involved father. They have pretty much turned this over to the therapist. They leave it to the therapist to talk about coach also.
Coach is very, very controlling with K. Gets mad at K for things like liking a boy that she doesn't think K should like. My friend just trusts K. Period. If K says everything is fine, it's fine. I know that teenagers lie, a lot. My friend told me yesterday that K ate a whole bowl of grapes.... She was so excited!! Grapes are nothing more than water and that's pretty much all she eats, my friend said she looks good, not too skinny, she says she's not cutting, so all's well. I just can't step on her toes and do anything behind my friends back. The coach does know about all the issues and offers to go to the therapist with K......um, no thanks!!! She is trying to control K and she seems to be doing a good job. My friend doesn't like it but she's not willing to do anything about it. My friend saw coach driving and said she drives like a maniac, way too fast and peels wheels around town.... She drives K everywhere. They have sleepovers every weekend night. Coach always mentions drinking on twitter, hasn't mentioned K and drinking but it doesn't take a rocket scientist..... Ugh!!!

Re: My friend making bad decisions with her 15yo daughter
 

Statikkat, I somehow missed this post, thank you so much for your insight!
Very helpful. I really want to help but don't know how without stepping on toes. My friend and her husband think they're doing exactly what they should be doing to help her. The therapist, K and my friend made a deal that therapist will not discuss what she & K talk about unless K is in danger. I just hope the therapist is keeping a close eye on everything. Again, thanks for your reply :)