Why aren't more of us guys trying Avodart?

[Clark]

Poakfish - Wow, you've got a lot of stuff going into your system. I used to hate it when people told me that back when I was doing 6-10g/day of B5. I know what it's like to want to do ANYTHING to make the condition better. The problem is -- if anything starts working, you won't know which ingredient is doing it. I think it's a good idea to stop all the other stuff before you do the Avodart.

How long have you been on these doses of SP, BS, and b5? I know that I started to see some real results once I hit 480 mg/day of SP, but had to bring it down because I couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time. I would really expect you to be seeing some results from that cocktail that you are taking.

I may have also had the fogginess side effect with Accutane, but I just can't remember. I know that I have had a few things that I have tried over the last year or so that have produced this result -- the worst was the megadoses of b5. I became a zombie.

And yes, the load dose that I had read about in the FDA trials for baldness was 2.5 mg/day. Good info regarding Dutas -- it's good to know that a generic option is coming along.

[paddywhack]

I was wondering if Sweejade or someone w/ a scientific background could reconcile this study w/ the viability of Avodart in controlling acne? Or at least make me feel better.

[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=A bstract&list_uids=14988688[/url]

[SweetJade1]

Paddywhack,
I wish I could tell you definately, but the studies have not been done. I know that there's studies that have shown that it reduces prostate cancer and increases hair growth on your head. I know from other's experiences that it can also decrease facial and body hair (including body builders). Yet when it comes to acne, I haven't heard anything positive.

It inhibits both enzymes for DHT and therefore, it should be effective, very effective, at preventing acne. Yet body builders are saying that they developed acne (never had it before) after several months on this drug or Finasteride (60% DHT inhibition). From what male & female users have said, Finasteride (Propecia -70%, Proscar) is not helpful for acne and only work for male pattern baldness and prostate problems.

Now there's several theories behind this:

Testosterone increase - estrogen decrease: DHT inibhitors are also aromatase inhibitors. Therefore, while you aren't producing as much DHT, you will still be producing Testosterone. Normally testoerone gets converted into Estrogen and other Androgens (DHEA, Androstendione - also can convert to estrogen). If you inhibit aromatase you prevent your Excess Testosterone from converting into Estrogen. Of course this usually isn't a problem, unless you're estrogen defficient, because estrogen fuels some cancers (like prostate cancer, breast cancer). Not to mention that buiild up of testosrone should help you maintain your libido etc, since you don't have as much of your supertestosterone. I know some people freak out when they hear this, but everything works well in it's own context. Like Zinc for example, studies have shown that it decreases acne and is a DHT inhibitor, but with the right supplements it can also increase DHT.

Estrogen Dominance - There's something called estrogen dominance an it has been associated with certain cancers, prostate enlargement, and fibroids and/or ovarian cysts (in women). Women with PCOS are supposedly estrogen dominant, and yet they still produce more male hormones too. I was reading somewhere that estrogen has the ability to cause inflammatory induced acne, in those that are normally not acne prone. This may or may not be a male only concern, but perhaps there's an increase of estrogen in comparison to testosterone in the male body when DHT is inhibited. you would think this is a good thing (males don't like having too little estrogen) since estrogen is an antiandrogen, which is why BC is given to most women with acne. There's definately a delicate balance here, but of course, Joeh would have to contest this theory because he actually is ALSO taking estrogen, and he's clear.

Opposing Forces Theory - From what I've read, this is something that is primarily body builders or men are experiencing. If so, well duh, body builders and clear skin (for those that are acne prone) don't seem to go together very well. If it's not the Anti-androgens and DHT Inhibitors, then it's the Hormonally Balanced diet that they can't follow, because they won't get "large" enough. Of course there's other solutions, but for those that want to follow one those lines of attack, they may not be too happy.

The reason for this is because, the Carb Loading is going to boost your overall steroid hormone production. The Protein Shakes, Dairy, HGH, & select hormone boosting supplements are going to boost your DHT production (directly or through IGF-1). Since you've boosted your hormones, your liver will produce more enzymes to convert testosterone into DHT. So, here we have people that are (includes many males & females on the board) only taking a DHT inhibitor (or antiandrogen), which can't always be effective enough at combatting the above dietary elements. It's like you want 1 or 2 pills to fight against the very thing that you keep increasing over and over on a daily basis. You have two opposing forces here and depending on your sensitivity level, one is going to be greater than the other.

The best line of attack for someone whose body is more stubborn is to reduce the carb loading (some take B5 & Low Carb/Gluten-Free when not training) so that you reduce your overall production. Try Red Star Nutritional Yeast or Rice Powder Protein as your supplement. Then take a DHT inhibitor. That way, at least you aren't producing as much testosterone, which means you won't produces as much DHT and the DHT inhibitor will be more effective.

Otherwise, I really can't help you there. The increase in acne may be due to one of the above factors and they aren't aware that they are taking something that's a little too potent and is affecting their skin. Other avodart males said that they had acne initially and that it went away after a 2 weeks. Others said that Finasteride (generic Propecia) gave them forehead and/or body acne and that Avodart helped clear it up. So it really depends on what kind of hormonal situation you have going on. In fact, I know some women reported increased facial hair growth on Spiro or Saw Palmetto, but most of us don't get those effects...usually the opposite.

HTH =)

P.S. [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=A bstract&list_uids=14681200[/url]

[SweetJade1]

Clark and Poakfish,
You both are doing really good things. I don't know how long you've been on those regimens but it does take 3 - 6 months to see results. You both are attacking DHT in several different ways. Depending on one's sensitivity level that's exactly what more of us may have to do.

So the BEST of the best ways to deal with DHT is:


1. Anti-androgens
a) Reduce overall steriod hormone synthesis -
1. Insulin Balancers - Diet, Prescriptions (Avandia), Supplements (ALA, Chromium Poly.), Fiber (Glucomannon)
2. Fat Metabolizers - B5 Therapy, Guggulipid, NAC-Vit. C

b) Bind Free-Testosterone - Estrogen (SHBG)

c) Increase Aromatase - increases testosterone conversion into estrogen, which means less that will convert to DHT! How?



2. DHT Inhibitors
a) Inhibit DHT enzymes - [Accutane - temp. effects], Flutamide, Spironolactone, Propecia, Avodart, Saw Palmetto, Stinging Nettle*, & Zinc-B6 (this may or may not contribute to increased or decreased sensitivity overtime).

b) DHT analogues - GLA (Evening primrose, Pumpkin Seed, Flax seed oils), Saw Palmetto (sterols), Beta Sitosterol, Soy isoflavones (Eqoul-Diadzein & Genistein), Green Tea, Pygeum, Stinging Nettle*. These look like DHT structurally, but aren't. They bind to the Androgen Receptors to block DHT from binding, thus it can't interact with those receptors. (this may or may not contribute to increased or decreased sensitivity overtime)

c) DHT binders - something enzyme or hormone that specifically binds to DHT to deactivate it. Does it exist?



3. Breakdown DHT - Estrogen is rumored to catabolize this and is also rumored to inhibit it's break down. I haven't found anything to support this either way. An Enzyme created this so an enzyme should destroy this, but how? By blocking the Androgen Receptor sites, DHT is supposed to be broken down and excreted. However, at this point, it seems that science doesn't know how increase that effect (safely).

So as you can see, there's hope, but there's so many questions when it comes to DHT and unfortunately there's still not enough answers. Any of you that want to be scientists please do so. There's plenty of mysteries that have yet to be solved. ;-)


HTH


P.S. *Something fascinating for you males (unsure for us females), is that Stinging nettle binds to both the Androgen Receptors to Block DHT , and also SHBG to block Free Testosterone. Now usually you would want Free Testosterone bound to SHBG so that it won't aromatize, but since you are blocking DHT, by leaving Free Testosterone free, you are able to maintain your libido....