ketogenic diet for diabetic.....long term benifits

[MAXS]

First off, is there an endrocoligist or doctor on board to give us some input on this subject??

I'm not diabetic, but a good friend of mine has become diabetic, and I'm tryin to help him out.....So....

If a non diabetic person can get into ketosis gradually, by elimination of all carbos from the diet and stay indefinately in a ketogenic state without glucose or endogenous insulin production, why couldn't a diabetic person?? Wouldn't this eliminate a lot of the long term health problems caused by diabetese?? I realise it would take a diabetic person constant and precise glucose monoriting and precision insulin control for a few weeks to gradually get into ketosis without starving the brain of glucose before ketones were present in sufficient quanity to no longer require glucose. Is this impossible for a diabetic or am I missing any other important issues here??

If acidity of the blood were the main problem, couldn't this condition be corrected with medication that would have less serious health related side effects than the inprecise administeration of exodegenous insulin along with the typical fluctuations of high and low glucose levels of a diabetic person??

Below is part of an article I recently read to clear up any questions that pertain to ketosis -vs- ketoacidosis.

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Dietary ketosis is among the most maligned and misunderstood concepts in nutrition because it is often confused with ketoacidosis, which is a life-threatening condition most often associated with uncontrolled insulin-deficient Type 1 diabetes. In the Type 1 diabetic, the absence of insulin leads to a toxic build-up of blood glucose and an extreme break-down of fat and muscle tissue. This condition doesn't occur in individuals who have even a small amount of insulin, whether from natural production or artificially administered.

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I have a lot more info and questions, but I had to start somewhere.

Thanks,
MAXS

[dwpavlik]

Sorry but the article is incorrect. In that it says that the body having even a little insulin will not enter ketoacidosis.
"This condition doesn't occur in individuals who have even a small amount of insulin, whether from natural production or artificially administered."
It is very wrong. Type one diabetics that go into ketoacidosis most always have insulin in their bodies. And I have been in DKA 6 times so I know of what I speak. Ketosis is not the same. But when you enter that stage the body feeds off of itself, which is the goal to loose weight. But ketoacidosis does the same thing but it also eats muscle material after the fat is low. The diet under control can work. But it cannot be done in the same manner as a non diabetic. You can and will enter diabetic ketoacidosis if it is not watched closely. The same problem I have had for 30 plus years is having non diabetics trying to cure or fix problems in a diabetic when they do not understand the intricacies of the control of the disease. Again the diet under close control can and does work. But not in the same manner as a non Diabetic body. Ketosis is not DKA, but it can help place the body into DKA. You have to be spilling ketenes for this to work. If you are spilling ketenes, you have built them up in your system. If they are built up in your system then the danger is available. Anytime ketenes are medium or high under any circumstances a diabetic enters DKA. It can not be avoided, because it is DKA. That is the state we are trying to avoid. So that is why we avoid this diet as it is written for non diabetics. It should be rewritten for us. But it will have many circumstances to watch out for. Danger can enter quickly if it is not under close control. So the risk by its very nature is not worth the usage of the diet. Unless you can manage your care with great control with extremely good numbers, I would not recommend it to that person without them being under great self control of sugars ,A1C’s.. It is a dangerous diet without good control. My brother is on the diet. He does not have Diabetes. I know the goals and diet. I loose weight by cutting down on carbs. But not cutting them out completely. It works with similar ideas. Just not as drastic.

[MAXS]

Well dwpavlik,

You have to understand, my friend has only recently been diagnosed with diabetes. You, on the other hand have had 30 years first hand experience dealing with the disease. You obvously have the time, desire, etc to research and have educated yourself through the years on the subject. Not all diabetic people have your knowlege on the subject.

I am attempting to educate myself on the subject so as to verbally pass it along to my friend, who is a 42yo father of two, with a daily schedule that doesn't allow the time to educate himself on the subject. For example, he has never heard the term, glycemic index, and I see his eating habits.

You state: "The same problem I have had for 30 plus years is having non diabetics trying to cure or fix problems in a diabetic when they do not understand the intricacies of the control of the disease."

By your above statement, every non diebetic research scientist working on a cure for diabetes should not be researching diabetes, or their work should be invalidated because they are in fact non diabetic themselves.

Come on dude, I'm just trying to educate myself, to pass into my friend, who knows VERY little, even less than I do about his disease. I DO NOT claim to know anything about diabetes, just attempting to learn and discuss some of my ideas, IE: this diabetes discussion board.

Another article I read on ketosis -vs- ketoacidosis is below, and seems to contradict some of what you are saying. Please, I am not trying to question or challenge your knowledge, just trying to get a more complete picture on the intricacies of this disease. I appreciaty your sharing your knowlege and opinion.

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Ketosis is a negative catch word for many people. The only reason can possibly be that
they're confusing it with diabetic ketoacidosis. But look how diametrically opposed they are. Ketoacidosis occurs in Type I diabetes, meaning it occurs because of an insulin absence or an insulin deficiency. Benign ketosis is achieved in overweight subjects whose metabolism is characterized by the fact that they put out too much insulin. Ketoacidosis is caused by an increased intake of carbohydrate, benign ketosis by a decreased intake of carbohydrate. There is, of course, acidosis in ketoacidosis, but in benign dietary ketosis the pH is 10 normal. There is no acidosis. In ketoacidosis, patients are extremely symptomatic, and in ketosis the subjects describe an improvement in well being. Now, that's pretty different.

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So please bear with me....isn't ketoacidosis a state of high blood ketone levels ALONG WITH high levels of glucose??

If NO glucose were present in the blood of a diabetic person, regardless of how this condition was attained, along with an adequate level of ketones to fuel the brain ,and the person did not consume ANY carbohydrates, why could this state not be carried on indefinately without having to administer exodgenous insulin?? Consuming ANY anount of carbs while ketogenic would probably induce ketoacidosis in a type2 diebetic?? Also if no glucose were present, wouldn't this eliminate the possibility of acidosis??

Or

Would a diabetic person be healthier on a very low amount of low glycemic carbs, taken in evenly, say 5 grams of carbs per meal, 5 times per day, along with protein and fats, for a total of 25 grams carbs per day, along with a corresponding reduction in insulin intake?

I am NOT promoting any change to any diabetic persons diet without an endrocologist's or doctor's supervision as even I understand this could prove potentially fatal.


Thanks,
MAXS


[This message has been edited by MAXS (edited 09-04-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MAXS (edited 09-04-2003).]

[dwpavlik]

OK sorry for being a little grumpy
What you are doing is commendable. I have had bad experiences with helpers of trying to cure me. Again sorry, that was my pet peeve.
Anyone can study and learn about diabetic care. What we are told by the Endo's is that we understand our ailments better than they can. Not educated better, But understand it better. So we work together with the Endo's and get the best of both worlds.
I did mention that the diet does work in close control and not allowed to be actuated in full ketosis. We have to keep our body clear of having Ketenes in our blood or it will cause a problem. Low blood glucose is also dangerous to diabetics. This can cause brain damage if the level is allowed to remain too low over a period of time.
An example of ketoacidosis in me in all cases I was taking insulin every day above 40 units of insulin per day. I acquired ketoacidosis anyway. As long as Ketenes are being spilled, there is always a danger of ketoacidosis. There is no contrary diabetic study to prove otherwise in this described situation. This is the point I was making. This is where the tight control needs to be taken. The article is misleading about diabetic dieters. It is not misleading about normal non diabetic dieters.

[hry33]

Dr Atkins new diet book talks of the benefits of a ketosis diet for diabetics
his diet is helping me a lot with my weight problem and diabetes control