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Old 09-03-2004, 02:00 AM   #1
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sinus treatments

For some reason all, or most, sinus discussions are only to be found under "allergy" forums. I guess 35 million people isn't enough to have its own board.

Anyway, let's get back on track. Some top doctors are advocating irrigation of the sinuses with antibiotics and/or antifungals. This sounds very logical to me, like spraying a roach with raid directly, as opposed to spraying it up it the air and hoping some hits the roach. Some also advocate IV antiobotics on an outpatient basis. Apparently you have a iv "line" in your arm so you can work and do whatever and get your medicine twice a day at home. A nurse may be necessary for that part.

Some doctors claim the IV antibiotics work better because the higher concentrations get into the bone, where the root of the infection is sort of hiding, waiting to come back. oral antiobotics, they say, don't get that deep into the bony tissue and thus don't fix the problem as well. Again, it sounds logical and there are studies to back it up (just pointing that out).

I am going to see an ENT to explore these options as soon as I can. I am taking allergy shots, meds, etc. but just can't kick the infection.

So, has anyone else tried these treatments? If people are really serious about a cure, why not? It just seems like a weird, glaring ommission. Can anyone explain it? Do people not know about the treatments? Is that why no one talks about them? Or do they know but do not believe the claims?
Are the too expensive? Are they such good treatments that no one comes back to the forum?

If anyone has irrigated with an antibiotic let me know, i am curious how it went.

Thank you,
Joe

 
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Old 09-03-2004, 06:51 AM   #2
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Re: sinus treatments

I had sinus infections for DECADES. Three years ago I started flooding my sinuses with a mixture of peroxide, baking soda and kosher salt. That was the end of my sinus infection misery.

There are three active discussion threads on Healthboards, about sinus flooding with peroxide. The Peroxide, baking soda combo is thought to be powerful against bacterial, viral or fungal infections. The discussions are at:

[url]http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=129210[/url] "Discussion"

[url]http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=139765[/url] "Documentation and discussion"

[url]http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=124803[/url] "Discussion"

Last edited by Machaon; 09-03-2004 at 06:53 AM.

 
Old 09-03-2004, 06:54 AM   #3
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Re: sinus treatments

I'm not entirely convinced that antibiotics do anything!

I recently had a sinus infection (about 5-6 weeks ago). I had classic symptoms; dizziness, yellow discharge, headaches, pressure. I immediately started irrigating with cool water, alkalol, kosher salt, and 3ml of hydrogen peroxide. I did this for 3 days, and then dropped the peroxide and alkalol (can irritate the tissue if used too often). In addition to this, I made some dietary changes -no diary or sugar. I also used Sinofresh twice a day, and started taking Chlor-Tremeton to get the allergies under control.

I then went to 2 ENTs and had 2 endoscopies done. No evidence of infection anywhere. Symptoms have subsided 80%.

I've been on antibiotics, and they dmaged my health in a big way (nerve damage, yeast overgrowth, etc.) Unless I am on death's door, I have no intention on taking another one.

But in certain situations, they are warrented. If there is bloody discharge, or thick green mucus, you might have to resort to them. The SinuNeb antibiotic irrigation system works well. IV antibiotics work as well. Just remember that they can impact your health, especially if they are a dangerous one like Avelox or Levaquin. Best to stick with Augmentin or a cephlosporin.

Sinusitis can be the result of structural problems in the nose. That's how my whole nightmare started -deviated septum and bone spur. If this is the case, neither antibiotics nor home-remedies will work. You have to have surgery.

So talk to your ENT and get a CT Scan. If there are no structural problems, try an intense irrigation routine and see what happens.

 
Old 09-03-2004, 01:45 PM   #4
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Re: sinus treatments

I have seen the posts for upside down sinus flooding. I tried it and it had no lasting effect. You see, I already use a sinus irrigating machine with warm salt water and peroxide, and that has helped alot over the years. It used to knock it out completely (much like your upside down flooding) but now the infection has set in pretty deep and I it seems I need something more.

I appreciate the responses but they are not responsive to what I asked. I asked specifically about antibiotics put into the nasal irrigator (grossan or water-pic or whatever), not sinuneb which is a mist and not the same thing I am talking about. Sinucare, not Sinuneb, is the company I am referring to. From what I see on the internet, sinuneb is much less effective that irrigating with the antibiotic. Also, sinuneb is mainly for use after an operation.

Also, I would like first hand knowledge, not stuff I can read off the internet. Did you personally IV antibiotics? Did they work? How well?

To me, the most promising treatments outside of surgery seem to be irrigation with an antibiotic, irrigation with an anti-fungal, and IV anti-biotics. I don't think the upside down flooding does any more than irrigation (I wiggle that thing all over and kind of shove it up there to wash it out real good.) At least not in my case.

Please, some one look up the material on Sinucare and see what you think. Many top doctors are on the board (they also have antibiotic/antifungal nose sprays, but, like the sinuneb, I don't think a mist will do the trick.)

Lastly, if no one is trying these methods (approved by the Mayo Clinic, top hospital in the nation), WHY? I always get linked to Sinucare when I do searches, do other people not see that site? Do they not read it? Do they not believe it if they read it?
There has been studies that show the sinus infection can get into the bone, so that is why IV antibiotics may help, as they are much higher in concentration and can penatrate the bony tissue more. Dr. Grossan, Tichner, and others prescribe irrigation wtih antibiotics. Is there I reason why no one here seems to have tried these treatments?

Joe

 
Old 09-03-2004, 04:11 PM   #5
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Re: sinus treatments

HI,

My understanding is that Mayo clinic has developed a sinus rinse that is antibiotic and antifungal but that they do not have a patent for it yet and therefore it is not yet available to anyone who's not a Mayo patient.

Now that I am on Xolair, I have hardly any sinus problems. (I am terribly allergic). However, I have been very interested in the possibility of inhaled antibiotics to treat sinus infections rather than oral ones. THe only time I have ever had an IV antibiotic was when an oral antibiotic didn't work and my sinus infection spread to my lungs and it just about killed me b/c of triggering my asthma.

I am in frequent disagreement with the previous poster about the efficacy of Avelox and Levaquin. These are the only oral antibiotics that work for me anymore. I have had chronic sinus infections triggered by allergic rhinits several times a year for years. I don't have any problems with side effects from Avelox or Levaquin. That said, they are currently the strongest oral antibiotics available and people who still get benefit from Augmentin or Zithromax should try those.

Anyway, good luck. Glad you are going to see a specialist.

 
Old 09-03-2004, 10:55 PM   #6
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Re: sinus treatments

The company Sinucare has the antibiotics and antifungals available right now. There is ever a prescription form to ******** to give to your doctor.

I have been on Avelox for six or seven weeks now with no problems. I will get a blood test to check my liver when I get a chance, per doctors request (just to make sure). It keeps my infection in check, but this time I just can't kick it completely. That's why I'm looking at these other options.

Glad Xolair is helping you. I don't know about that for me, my allergies are moderate, not severe. However, I think the structure of my sinuses/turbinates is such that even a small degree of inflammation blocks things off and keeps the infection in. So maybe it can help, but my gut feeling is that I have to get rid of this infection and then the inflammation may calm down. It's the chicken and the egg argument, which triggered which - the infammation or the infection. I am attacking both but I would like to go ballistic on the infection.

Do other people not feel that way? It seems odd to have a sinus infection but not want to go all out against it.

Joe

 
Old 09-04-2004, 06:49 AM   #7
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Re: sinus treatments

I'm not a doctor, but 6 weeks is WAY too long to be on something like Avelox. Aside from the dangerous side-effects you also risk killing all the good bacteria in your system that keeps yeast and bad bacteria in check. The results of this can be non-stop incontinence, fungal infections, etc.

It sounds to me like you have a structural problem that needs to be corrected through surgery. Have you had CT Scans and endoscopies done?

The antibiotics screwed me up in a big way. I can't even list all the things that have happened since going on Levaquin for 14 days, Avlox for 14 days, and IV Avelox.

 
Old 09-04-2004, 03:13 PM   #8
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Re: sinus treatments

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiggins1066
I'm not a doctor, but 6 weeks is WAY too long to be on something like Avelox. Aside from the dangerous side-effects you also risk killing all the good bacteria in your system that keeps yeast and bad bacteria in check. The results of this can be non-stop incontinence, fungal infections, etc.

It sounds to me like you have a structural problem that needs to be corrected through surgery. Have you had CT Scans and endoscopies done?

The antibiotics screwed me up in a big way. I can't even list all the things that have happened since going on Levaquin for 14 days, Avlox for 14 days, and IV Avelox.
Sorry about your troubles with the floroquines (sp?). This is the second time on them long term, no problems. Some top websites say you need 3-8 weeks minimum and up to 12 weeks for sinus infections, and I tend to agree.
I went to an ENT and he said I had not structural problems (that was almost 2 years ago, but I had same problems then). I am going to get a second opinion.

Avelox is widely prescribed, do you think you are just one of the 1 percent that can't tolerated it (or whatever percent, nothing works for everyone). I agree that I am on it a while, but last time I needed 5-7 weeks to feel better.
It's too bad you did the IV with the same type of drug that screwed up your system when taking orally, as I am curious to know how IV therapy can help in normal circumstances.


Why don't you try irrigating with an antibiotic a la sinucare? They typically use gentimicin, tobrimicin, and some others in their pre-made formulas, no Avelox or such. One website, not related to sinucar, even describes using bactroban (just squeeze have a tube in and keep mixing until it dissolves - under doctor's orders of course). This way you could not only avoid the antibiotics you don't like, but also they don't have to run through your whole system.

Do you currently use irrigation? If so, why not consider it? I am going to do it, but it would be nice to discuss it with someone doing as well, or who has done it. Again, sinucare makes the stuff, and your doctor gets it from them.
A woman who answers questions there told me that it works, but more or less admitted that when you stop using it, many people have infection come back. But I say So what? I irrigate now anyway, so I'll just put meds in it forever till I die I suppose. At this point, long term remission sounds great.

 
Old 09-04-2004, 05:17 PM   #9
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Re: sinus treatments

On the Yahoo site for floroquinolones, there are about 800 people who have had nasty side-effects from Avelox. I have another 4000 reports on CD. These side-effects are serious; tendon ruptures, peripheral neuropathy, Stevens Johnson Syndrome, psychosis, etc. There is a book called "Bitter Pills" that talks about quinolones. You can find it on Amazon.

I don't know what the percentage of side-effects is. A vast majority go unnreported, so it is hard to say. The main issue is, these side-effects are devastating. If someone gave you a pill and said "here, take this. Just remember, there is a 1-2% chance you will end up in a wheelchair for the next 4 years" you might think twice.

My ENT is on the physicians board for Sinucare. he is one of the main guys. He did my surgery in March. If I get another active infection, I will try an antibiotic spray or SinuNeb system. Right now, I have some gunk in my sinuses, but I have managed to keep it under control. Symptoms are very mild.

Irrigation works wonders for me. If I get nasty discolored discharge, I add 3ml of hydrogen peroxide to the mix. Other than that, I use Sinofresh and antihistamines (Chlor-Tremeton works great). I'm on a restricted diet -no dairy, yeast, or refined sugar. This seems to have helped, since symptoms dramatically decreased after going on it.

My recommendation would be to start irrigating, preferably with a machine (pulse action helps the cilia), and start using Sinofresh twice a day. I use the Grossan Hydropulse Machine. In your case, start with this mixture

480ml of COOL distilled water
15ml of Alkalol (a mucus solvent)
3ml hydrogen peroxide
1 Tbs of kosher salt
a pinch of baking soda

Do this twice a day for 3 days. Then stop the Hydrogen Peroxide and Alkalol, but continue irrigating.

Your ENT should do a culture of the bacteria in your sinuses. This will allow him to formulate a better attack plan. Not all infections are bacterial -some are fungal. Do you get brownish discharge?

It's like asthma. I'm not sure if it ever goes away completely, but it can be controlled.

 
Old 09-06-2004, 01:59 AM   #10
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Re: sinus treatments

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiggins1066
On the Yahoo site for floroquinolones, there are about 800 people who have had nasty side-effects from Avelox. I have another 4000 reports on CD. These side-effects are serious; tendon ruptures, peripheral neuropathy, Stevens Johnson Syndrome, psychosis, etc. There is a book called "Bitter Pills" that talks about quinolones. You can find it on Amazon.

I don't know what the percentage of side-effects is. A vast majority go unnreported, so it is hard to say. The main issue is, these side-effects are devastating. If someone gave you a pill and said "here, take this. Just remember, there is a 1-2% chance you will end up in a wheelchair for the next 4 years" you might think twice.

My ENT is on the physicians board for Sinucare. he is one of the main guys. He did my surgery in March. If I get another active infection, I will try an antibiotic spray or SinuNeb system. Right now, I have some gunk in my sinuses, but I have managed to keep it under control. Symptoms are very mild.

Irrigation works wonders for me. If I get nasty discolored discharge, I add 3ml of hydrogen peroxide to the mix. Other than that, I use Sinofresh and antihistamines (Chlor-Tremeton works great). I'm on a restricted diet -no dairy, yeast, or refined sugar. This seems to have helped, since symptoms dramatically decreased after going on it.

My recommendation would be to start irrigating, preferably with a machine (pulse action helps the cilia), and start using Sinofresh twice a day. I use the Grossan Hydropulse Machine. In your case, start with this mixture

480ml of COOL distilled water
15ml of Alkalol (a mucus solvent)
3ml hydrogen peroxide
1 Tbs of kosher salt
a pinch of baking soda

Do this twice a day for 3 days. Then stop the Hydrogen Peroxide and Alkalol, but continue irrigating.

Your ENT should do a culture of the bacteria in your sinuses. This will allow him to formulate a better attack plan. Not all infections are bacterial -some are fungal. Do you get brownish discharge?

It's like asthma. I'm not sure if it ever goes away completely, but it can be controlled.

 
Old 09-06-2004, 02:18 AM   #11
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Re: sinus treatments

Thanks for the heads up on the Avelox.

I already use sinofresh, take allergy shots, irrigate with salt and peroxide, etc. Yes, it helps, but I want to GET RID of the infection, not just feel somewhat better. My goal is to either cure it or put it in remission, not some half-measure so I can merely tolerate my life. I demand more than that.

Are you aware that sinucare not only makes nose sprays with antibiotics but also antibiotics which are meant to be used for irrigation? That is why I am confused.
Your doc works for sinucare, but you are considering sinuneb, which not only has nothing to do with sinucare, but is their competition and an inferior product at that (the mist doesn't deliver or penitrate as well as irrigation with the antibiotic, or so I have read). I appreciate the above advice, but is there a reason you don't irrigate with an antibiotic as recommended by sinucare, a company which your doctor belongs to?

Or did your doc not recommend it to you? If so, why do you think that is? It seems like a great idea, much healthier than oral antibiotics, and like I said, better than sinuneb or even the sprays that sinucare sells. All the websites that are positive about sinuneb seem to be their corporate web pages. Grossan recommends the irrigation method, I described above (but he says be careful not to blow nose afterwards or you could force antiobiotics into ears or other unwanted areas which is dangerous) over the sinuneb.

I am just trying to figure this stuff out.

Thanks,
Joe

 
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