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Old 08-14-2007, 04:08 PM   #1
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jojo9515 HB User
Sleep apnea and insomnia and the subconscious mind

My neighbor has sleep Apnea and insomnia. His sleep doctor told him that in his subconscious mind he was aware that he wasn't breathing and he was scared he wouldn't wake up, and this is causing him to have insomnia. I also have sleep apnea and insomnia, so I am trying to find some information about this, but the only thing I can find is that sleep apnea can cause insomnia, but it doesn't say anything about it being cause from the subconscious mind. I would like to hear from others who has sleep apnea and insomnia, and was told by their doctor that it is cause from their subconscious mind.

 
Old 08-22-2007, 09:14 AM   #2
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Re: Sleep apnea and insomnia and the subconscious mind

I was and am still this way. I have severe sleep apnea. It has always been hard for me to get to sleep and then I couldn't stay asleep. The CPAP has helped and it is becoming easier as I become more and more comfortable with it.

My sleep specialist described the insomnia as a trained defensive measure, where your body and brain realize that your sleeping is poor and/or dangerous and thus hinders sleeping. I kinda like that description.

I also have the opportunity to watch my son. (4.8 years now) As he grows with sleep apnea. He never slept well and long as an infant.. but none of the pediatricians thought it anything other than colic.. he fought sleep like it was war and never slept well. It wasn't until I was thirty and my son 2 that I was diagnosed with sleep apnea that I began to see all the signs in my son and husband.

Well I made my husband go and get evaluated and he had mild sleep apnea as a result of hypopnea. My son's breathing and sleeping issues we tried to address surgically with first an adnoidectomy and then a tonsillectomy. Well these didn't work to aide his sleep but his sinus and ear infections were reduced. I asked my sleep specialist, if my son could have sleep apnea. My pediatricians were telling me "No." still and that children do not have sleep apnea.. they were wrong! My sleep specialist said sleep apnea is genetically dominant and that my son should be evaluated and that sleep studies can be performed as early as six months and should be on any and all of my future children. Well I made my appointment and had my son evaluated.. he had both hypopnea and obstructive sleep apnea. He was stopping breathing 30 times and hour and had 15 incidences of a depressed breathing rate an hour as well.. he had severe sleep apnea, just like mommy and daddy.

Now we all are using CPAP's. My son at 4.8 feels like a very big boy using his.. but back to the insomnia. As my sone grew and his sleep apnea worsened.. so did his insomnia. He also manifested many severe sleep deprivation symptoms as well. One thing most noted in children with sleep apnea is their unwillingness to sleep and be sleepy. To counteract this they begin to manifest and exhibit hyperactive traits. Constantly moving, speaking out loud randomly, unwilling to sit and work on something for long periods of time.. etc. Why? One can see the child is obviously exhausted, but if he sat and was quiet he would nod off and pass out in his seat. With every passing day sleep was lost the effects would get worse. Amplifying moods swings and over all ability to control ones inner most feelings and urges. He would get easily frustrated and had to have things just so or he would blow his top. It takes years of sleep deprivation to accept being tired and grumpy and making the best of it. But this is hard for those with normal sleep patterns to understand. I would like to see how normal sleepers felt if they deliberately forced them selves to lose two hours or even one hour of sleep a night. By then end of the week they would be willing to take a bite out of anyone that looks at them funny. It was painful to watch my son be accused of ADHD when I knew it wasn't that.. we had him tested. He could focus and concentrate he had no attention issues.. he just couldn't or wouldn't allow his body to achieve a restful state. All along it was that he was only getting 4 hours of actual sleep for the 14 he was sleeping. This wore him dow, he stopped growing for a whole year and he couldn't explain or understand why he didn't want to sleep.. he just innately fought it.

So is it subconscious.. I think yes it is some way. Is it fear? I am not sure. I feel it is more instinctual. I think it is a trained biological defense mechanism that develops in intensity over time. I have been on my CPAP for two years now.. my insomnia is getting better slowly but surely with continued use and good sleep hygiene.

Well that is my long rambling 20 cents worth. Hope it can help you and your friend.

MG
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Last edited by mkgbrook; 08-22-2007 at 09:27 AM.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:28 AM   #3
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Re: Sleep apnea and insomnia and the subconscious mind

Oh my my hubby also has severe apnea with desats down to 50% and our son had to wear a moniter as a baby. I was told by a doc to get our son checked out since it can run in families. My husband wears a cpc machine and does much better but before it he seemed to have insomnia as well. He was afraid he would not wake up again. I think worrying he would die in his sleep kept me awake at night as it took years to get a doc to order the sleep study. Do you sleep better at all with the cpap ?? And have any of you had surgery and had airway problems ?? I have another post about that you might want to look at. i am so glad you did not listen to the docs that said kids can't have apnea and had your son tested. After reading this I think I will have my boy tested since he is so tired in the morning and snores at night. Good luck I hope everything works out for you.

 
Old 08-22-2007, 09:53 AM   #4
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Re: Sleep apnea and insomnia and the subconscious mind

Definitely get your child tested. If your child is younger than eight they should not snore at all.. if they do, obstructive sleep apnea is almost guaranteed. It will only get worse over time.

My son has been on his CPAP since February.. six months. Since then he has grown three inches and sleeps a solid ten hours a night on his CPAP. He wakes refreshed and happy. No more sleep talking/walking and snoring. We had the T&A first because this often cures OSA in most children. We needed a sleep pad sensor for my son, but the MD's just blew us off. Any other children will have one and be evaluated ASAP. The tonsils and adnoids will mostlikely get yanked at the age of two as well.

I replied to your other post a second time Lourash. I hope it helps on both of these issues. I also have thorough posts on Sleep Apnea and children on various boards. ADD, Childrens Health, Parenting and this one.. I will bump the on on this board for you.

Sincerely,
MG
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:45 AM   #5
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jojo9515 HB User
Re: Sleep apnea and insomnia and the subconscious mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkgbrook View Post
I was and am still this way. I have severe sleep apnea. It has always been hard for me to get to sleep and then I couldn't stay asleep. The CPAP has helped and it is becoming easier as I become more and more comfortable with it.

My sleep specialist described the insomnia as a trained defensive measure, where your body and brain realize that your sleeping is poor and/or dangerous and thus hinders sleeping. I kinda like that description.

I also have the opportunity to watch my son. (4.8 years now) As he grows with sleep apnea. He never slept well and long as an infant.. but none of the pediatricians thought it anything other than colic.. he fought sleep like it was war and never slept well. It wasn't until I was thirty and my son 2 that I was diagnosed with sleep apnea that I began to see all the signs in my son and husband.

Well I made my husband go and get evaluated and he had mild sleep apnea as a result of hypopnea. My son's breathing and sleeping issues we tried to address surgically with first an adnoidectomy and then a tonsillectomy. Well these didn't work to aide his sleep but his sinus and ear infections were reduced. I asked my sleep specialist, if my son could have sleep apnea. My pediatricians were telling me "No." still and that children do not have sleep apnea.. they were wrong! My sleep specialist said sleep apnea is genetically dominant and that my son should be evaluated and that sleep studies can be performed as early as six months and should be on any and all of my future children. Well I made my appointment and had my son evaluated.. he had both hypopnea and obstructive sleep apnea. He was stopping breathing 30 times and hour and had 15 incidences of a depressed breathing rate an hour as well.. he had severe sleep apnea, just like mommy and daddy.

Now we all are using CPAP's. My son at 4.8 feels like a very big boy using his.. but back to the insomnia. As my sone grew and his sleep apnea worsened.. so did his insomnia. He also manifested many severe sleep deprivation symptoms as well. One thing most noted in children with sleep apnea is their unwillingness to sleep and be sleepy. To counteract this they begin to manifest and exhibit hyperactive traits. Constantly moving, speaking out loud randomly, unwilling to sit and work on something for long periods of time.. etc. Why? One can see the child is obviously exhausted, but if he sat and was quiet he would nod off and pass out in his seat. With every passing day sleep was lost the effects would get worse. Amplifying moods swings and over all ability to control ones inner most feelings and urges. He would get easily frustrated and had to have things just so or he would blow his top. It takes years of sleep deprivation to accept being tired and grumpy and making the best of it. But this is hard for those with normal sleep patterns to understand. I would like to see how normal sleepers felt if they deliberately forced them selves to lose two hours or even one hour of sleep a night. By then end of the week they would be willing to take a bite out of anyone that looks at them funny. It was painful to watch my son be accused of ADHD when I knew it wasn't that.. we had him tested. He could focus and concentrate he had no attention issues.. he just couldn't or wouldn't allow his body to achieve a restful state. All along it was that he was only getting 4 hours of actual sleep for the 14 he was sleeping. This wore him dow, he stopped growing for a whole year and he couldn't explain or understand why he didn't want to sleep.. he just innately fought it.

So is it subconscious.. I think yes it is some way. Is it fear? I am not sure. I feel it is more instinctual. I think it is a trained biological defense mechanism that develops in intensity over time. I have been on my CPAP for two years now.. my insomnia is getting better slowly but surely with continued use and good sleep hygiene.

Well that is my long rambling 20 cents worth. Hope it can help you and your friend.

MG
Yes, your information helps alot thank you very much mkgbrook. My boys are 5 and 10, so I need to have them checked out for sleep apnea? I wish my doctor told me this. I do check on them when they sleep to make sure they are breathing. They seem to be breathing ok and they don't snore, but I am going to ask my doctor about getting them checked out. I didn't know that sleep apnea is genetically dominant. My husband has mild sleep apnea from what I can tell. I lay awake sometime listening to him stop breathing, but its not every night only sometimes. He won't go to the doctor. I don't think he believes me, and he don't never feel sleepy during the day. I am so glad you told me this. Like I said my kids seem to breath ok and don't snore when they sleep, but they do have some of the symptom your child has. Thanks for telling me about what your doctor said "the insomnia as a trained defensive measure, where your body and brain realize that your sleeping is poor and/or dangerous and thus hinders sleeping". I tried to find some information on the web about this and I can't find anything at all.

 
Old 08-30-2007, 06:16 AM   #6
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Re: Sleep apnea and insomnia and the subconscious mind

Here is a good post with my summary of the guidelines the sleep specialists look for sleep apnea in a child. Hope this might help with your decision on whether or not to see a specialist. In my personal opinion, when in doubt, check it out.

[url]http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=513349[/url]

Sincerely,
MG
__________________
If we learn by our mistakes, I am working on one hell of an education.

 
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