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Old 10-14-2009, 01:52 PM   #1
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Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

Hi all,
I read the posts here all the time,but have never posted anything..so here goes.
I am 43 with fibro,hbp,diabetes,Itp and lumbar and cervical pain. I am having alot of numbness and tingling in my hands...right side is worse along with right foot goes numb also. I had a MRI done recently and this is what the MRI
said:
Multilevel degenerative disc disease as described. At the level of C3-C4 there is central/ right paracentral bony bar ridge resulting in moderate right lateral recess and neural foraminal narrowing and mild central canal stenosis.
At the level of C4-C5, there is left posterior disc herniation,left paracentral bony bar ridge and left uncinate hypertrophy resulting in moderate to severe left lateral recess and neural foraminal narrowing and moderate central canal stenosis. Mild right paracentral bony bar ridge with resulting mild right lateral recess and neural foraminal narrowing. At level C5-C6, there is diffuse bony bar ridge resulting in moderate right lateral recess and neural foraminal narrowing and mild left lateral recess narrowing without significant central canal stenosis.
Impression: Multilevel degenerative disc disease as described, most pronounced at the level of C4-C5 with left posterior disc herniation, left paracentral bony bar ridge and left uncinate hypertrophy. These degenerative changes result in moderate to severe left lateral recess and neural foraminal narrowing and moderate canal stenosis at this level.


I recently knocked the back of my head getting into bed and my neck made its usual cracking noise, but immediately my hands went numb and I had an instant headace and my eye began to twitch. The headache and twitch only lasted for about 60 seconds but the numbness lasted about 15 minutes. I am not sure if this is related to cervical problem or not.
I saw a Neurosurgeon last month that basically did not want to deal with me, he said cant help no nerve damage. I saw another NS today, he is retired from surgery just does consults and diagnosis. He basically said that my problems have to do with the fact that I need my mind, body and soul to be fixed. He did not believe in Fibro. And for my cervical problems, he said basically he would not do surgery, it would do more damage than good and that I am basically stuck this way, unless of course I fix the mind,body and soul . As I was getting ready to leave, he came back in the room and says that he forgot to tell me that if my hands do become numb and I have weakness, etc....(which I told him I had when we were first talking ),then I need to be re-evaluated by a NS for surgery. He came back in to cover his butt! Was he a looney or what?

Sorry for the long post, but I am so flustered I want to just sit and cry. Anyone out there that can tell me what the MRI is saying and what I should do or what I need?
Thanks to all-Blessings to you.
T

 
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:55 PM   #2
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

Hi Tina....I just read an article in a neurology journal today telling neurologists to take fibro seriously as they now have proof it is a pain syndrome and they should be treating it......it was in my neuro-ophthalmologist's waiting room. The neurosurgeon was WRONG.

I can't interpret your MRI tonight as my eyes are still dilated and I'm getting a massive headache trying to read in the light. I need dark! But I'll be back first thing tomorrow AM and then I'll tell you what it says and a comment or 2 on the neurosurgeons(idiots). And perhaps someone else will come along before me to do it...if not, I'll be back.

Can you hand in there another 12-13 hours?

gentle hugs..............Jenny

 
Old 10-14-2009, 08:51 PM   #3
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

Perhaps a visit with an Orthopedic Spine Surgeon? My cervical and lumbar surgeries have all been done by Orthopedic Spine Surgeons and I've had good outcomes.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:44 PM   #4
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

Jenny, thanks for responding and about the info you saw in your docs office. There are just some very old fashion doctors out there that cannot wrap their head around Fibro. It took me several trys until I found a good doc for the fibro issue.
Please do get back with me on my MRI, I am very curious about what it really says.

SpineAZ, thanks for your reply. I figure that was going to be my next step was to look for an OP Surgeon that specialized in Spinal surgeries.

Anymore advice I can get is greatly appreciated.
Thanks and Blessings to all,
T

Last edited by tinafibro214; 10-14-2009 at 10:33 PM. Reason: smiley face was on by mistake

 
Old 10-15-2009, 10:40 AM   #5
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

I'm back. Amazing what a good night's sleep does for dilated pupils! I can see! Hate these eye exams every few months!

Now for your back....as I do with everyone, an anatomy and medical terminology lesson first. The vertebrae in the neck are different from the ones in the lower back as they are smaller and from C6 up, have arteries to the brain going up both sides within the bone itself. The spinal cord comes down from the brain and has both white and gray matter just like the brain and a protective covering that contains spinal fluid. At each vertebra(except for C1) a pair of spinal nerves peels off the cord and exits from each side out to the body. They exit from a hole in the bone called the foramina. To the front of each vertebra is a disk of hard gelatinous material called a disk(or disc). This disk is enclosed in a membrane that can rip open and cause a "herniation" and the gelatinous material can escape but it usually stays attached to the main disk and just kind of oozes out in either a sharp little bubble(small tear) or a larger bulge(bigger tear). These disks can also dry out and shrink as part of arthritis or aging. The vertebrae themselves have small joints that join together to allow the amazing amount of movements we can make. Each vertebra is a joint against another vertebra, the facet joints are on the back of the vertebra and allow sideways twisting and then there are little joints within each vertebra such as the uncinate joint that allows more intricate movements.

They talk in your MRI about a "bony bar ridge" and I am assuming that is the same as it is in most joints....arthritis has caused the bone to wear down and formed a ridge of bone instead of a smooth even surface. Radiologists have their own language and depending on where they trained, may called things by a slightly different name but they all mean the same thing. So where they have said there is a bony bar ridge, picture a once smooth surface as having lost bone due to arthritis and left behind a ridge in the middle of the area that makes the surface unstable.

Another thing to know about arthritis is that sometimes it causes bone to fall apart and sometimes it builds bone where it shouldn't.

Compression of the nerves exiting the vertebra from whatever, is graded from mild to moderate to severe.

They list 2 vertebra together as they are concentrating on the joint that happens between 2 vertebrae.

So let's tackle the MRI and I'll concentrate on the stuff that causes symptoms.

C3-4...you have one of those bony ridges in the mid-right side that has caused thinning of the bone on the right side. This has resulted in the hole where the nerve goes out to close up slightly and some build up of bone within the central canal where the spinal cord is but it isn't touching the spinal cord. This should be causing neck pain and right shoulder/arm pain.

C4-5....here is your big problem. You have 2 of those bony ridges...one on the left and one on the right. Both have caused a thinning of the bone on the sides of the vertebra. The small uncinate joint has deteriorated causing more bone to have dissloved on the left side and then building bone in the area of the foramina where the nerve goes out. This is listed as moderate to severe which means the nerve there is in trouble. The right side foramina is slightly closed up so the nerve compression here is mild. It is also building bone within the spinal canal but only on the left side. It says the spinal cord has moderate impact(compression) but does not give the actual millimeters involved. A normal cord is 11-12 mms. And just to add insult to injury, you have herniated the disk at this level and it has ruptured backwards toward the spinal canal but is not touching it at this point(some good news!). This should be causing a lot of pain in your left upper arm, some right upper arm pain and a lot of neck pain from the instability of thinned out bone and a disk that is not working. The cord compression can cause problem anywhere below this level so you may have numbness or tingling or even muscles that don't work right in you legs or arms or both.

C5-6....Another one of those bony ridges but this one is all over the place making the surface rough. The hole for the nerve exiting on the right is again moderately narrowed. It is slightly narrowed on the left. No bone building in the spinal canal. This one can cause pain all the way down to your right thumb and some pain down to the left thumb as well.

Your entire upper neck has been compromised with a lot of bone thinning and rough surfaces. Makes those vertebrae rock instead of sliding over one another smoothly.

Spine surgeons, whether they be orthos or neuros, operate for nerve damage, not pain. When you have pain, you have a live, screaming nerve. But nerve damage is seen in loss of sensation(numbness, tingling, electric shocks, and loss of function(dropping things, trouble walking, muscle weakness, muscles not working like they should). It is those things that they operate for. So many patients go in complaining about their pain not realizing that the doc doesn't care about that. It's the other stuff and we kind of forget what that is.....it doesn't hurt. So start writing down all the losses you experience...dropping a plate, stiff legs, hurting a finger or thumb and you really don't feel that much. That is what gets them doing something.

I learned this the hard way. My first NS I saw at 9am. I was pretty good in the morning after a good night's rest. So I felt pretty good and found myself being totally dismissed in less than 15 minutes. So my neurologist explained to me what I just did for you and told me to get a late day appointment. She then had me go to another NS. I was walking like a drunk by the time I saw him and my arms were weak and fingers numb.....I was booked for surgery right away.

I would also advise not talking about fibro....you don't know if they are one of the docs who believes and has read the studies. Spine surgeons are "test people". They want MRI's...they want to see where the problem is. Fibro has no way to test for it just as most mental illnesses have no way to test for them, so they throw it into the category of a mental illness. Don't give them reason to doubt you. If you take any meds for it, tell them it's for the chronic pain from your neck. Tell them about fibro after surgery. And you might very well find out that your fibro was actually the pain of a bad neck. You could have pain from anywhere below C4 and that is most of your body.

You've already gotten 2 opinions but both were tainted. NS #1 you didn't know to tell him about loss of function and not pain. NS #2 sounds like he's breathed in a little too much anesthesia over the years. Find a spine surgeon...not just a neurosurgeon or orthopedist. Some here prefer orthos, I prefer neuros but have seen both, but make sure they have a practice dedicated to spine surgery only. This is an area where you need someone who does this all the time and knows where he/she is going.

So, what questions do you have? I hope this has helped.

Jenny

 
Old 10-15-2009, 03:02 PM   #6
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

Jenny, Oh My Thank you so much for all the information on my MRI and about the docs. I appreciate it so so much.

What type of surgery did you have and for what? Was it successful or do you still have problems?

The goof I saw yesterday did tell me that if I were to have surgery that it would basically not fix anything. Did you have pain along with numbness and did it help? Like on a scale of 0% to 100%, how much did it help?

I have alot of other health issues, I am not in the greatest of health or shape since I have had to be so inactive because of pain from fibro, pain from my lumbar back and pain from neck I have become overweight also. I hate that I am this person now. I used to be so full of life, I was a Competitive Figure Skater for 8 years when I was young, I was able to go out and basically do anything. Now I am a 43 year old woman who fells like she is 93. I had a Total Hysterectomy when I was 31 and then my health started going downhill from there. I definitely would not be this way if I had a choice. But the NS I saw yesterday basically was telling me that alot of this I had chosen.

Anyway, again thanks for all the info. You have helped me feel much better by explaining that I am definitely messed up in the neck and that I am not crazy. You are an angel.

-Tina-

 
Old 10-15-2009, 06:06 PM   #7
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

Angel here...don't look at all the dirt on my wings please...and my halo is VERY tarnished...fell right off my cloud last week.

Anyhow, I had problems from C3 to C7 with multiple levels of spinal cord compression, 3 herniated disks and a whole mess of arthritis pressing on so many nerves I no longer had any pain. In fact, my major symptoms were stiff legs that wouldn't move more than a baby step, hands that dropped everything, fingertips that didn't feel the ***** I had to do for my blood sugar, and at times I walked like a drunk, unable to stay balanced. I found out I had a problem after shoveling snow and going numb from the neck down. I was on the verge of paralysis.

That was in January and I didn't have surgery until September. In January my spinal cord was down to 6mms and probably smaller by surgery time. I was going numb all over the place. I had a new surgery called a laminoplasty where the vertebrae are "rebuilt" to give the cord more space and he widened the holes for the nerves as well. No fusion. I woke up with all the numbness gone and everything worked perfectly. It was miraculous. I was back to work in 2 1/2 weeks and doing great.

Then 3 months after, I was sitting in my recliner at home, 9pm Friday night, watching TV when I felt as if someone had plunged a knife in the back of my neck, over and over again. My head slumped forward and massive muscle spasms set in. I hit the pain pills and muscle spasm pills and went to bed. It was worse the next day. Finally, Sunday, I was screaming in pain and agreed to go to the ER(not where I had the surgery...that was 2 hours away in Boston). They said I had muscle spasms and wouldn't even take an x-ray...just more drugs. Next day I called my surgeon and found out he had left for 2 weeks for the Christmas holidays so I tried another local ER. More of the same except thy added more pain meds. So I waited for 2 weeks until my doc got back. It just so happened that I had my 3 month check-up already scheduled for that morning anyhow.

So I get my 3 month xrays and go to see my doc. They brought me in ahead of everyone and he came right in to tell me my entire neck had shifted and I needed surgery as soon as he could arrange it....8 days later. He couldn't believe I wasn't in incredible pain...but I wasn't at that point(the first 3 days I was!). He had me get a CT of my neck for use during surgery and just before surgery he looked at it and told me I was probably going to be paralyzed on the left side. Turned out I had dislocated 5 vertebrae and broken 3 of the 4 bone grafts he used in September...and one graft had impaled the cord on the left. Why this happened, no one knows but it had nothing to do with the first surgery. I know that because the same thing had happened to my lumbar spine some 30 years earlier. The ligaments just gave away and......"let it rip!"

Four days after surgery I stopped breathing repeatedly and ended up with brain damage just to top everything off. But since they called my family and told them I might not make it, I'm glad to be alive.

So I worked and worked to regain the use of my left side and did so but now there are new problems and it may be that the nerves are dying after all. I'm dislocating joints in my right arm. I got back 95% of the brain problems and about the same with muscle use so I beat the odds and the doc's prognosis so I'm happy.

I'm almost 3 years out from that and it gets better with each day. I am fused from C3 to T1 with one long set of titanium rods and 10 screws(they had to leave out C6...not enough bone). The pain still comes late in the day but the muscle spasms are gone except for a day when I over do it. I battle peripheral neuropathy(nerve shocks/pain in the rest of the body)but I recently added Vit. B12 and B6 and it's helping a lot. Over all, I'm about a 7. I'll never be a 10. I applied for and got Social Security disability and at my doc's insistence, I won't be going back to work...I'm 58 and he says if I push myself, I'll only go downhill.

So that is how I ended up learning so much about spines.....the hard way!

But like you, I have a lot of other health problems including osteoarthritis and rheumatoid. That spine surgery was #22 of the arthritis surgeries I've had. I go in 2 weeks to see if I need revisions on both of my knee implants...they hurt! So I just take it in stride and yes, I see a therapist to deal with all of this. I'm an abuse survivor and a lot of the arthritis is from abuse as a kid. So I've been through worse.

So now that I've helped you learn what is wrong...how do you feel now? Has the education made a difference? It did for me. Made me feel more in control when I could wade through all the medical mumbo jumbo and understand it. I think educating yourself is so important and I hope you do too.

gentle hugs...................angel Jenny

 
Old 10-17-2009, 10:25 AM   #8
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

My Angel Jenny, my gosh you have been thru h*** and back several times it sounds like. I am so sorry you have had it so rough. Do you have family that helps you out or are you on your own?

Yes, the education made a huge difference. I thank you for that. After seeing that NS on Wednesday, I was really depressed. I was starting to really wonder if maybe I was making my self this way, but then I was not able to figure out why anyone would want to be in this condition as a choice for their life. So, you helped me reassure myself that I am definitely not in good shape with the spine and that I just need to keep working on finding the right doc.

I also have arthritis in my lumbar area and of course the other 8-9 things wrong with me and I believe that my figure skating is what helped with the back and neck problems.

I cannot believe you have had to have so many surgeries, when you had the surgery on your neck was it painful while recovering? Did you have alot of the health problems at that time? It sounds as if you have diabetes, If you do did it affect your surgery any? Being put under anesthesia scares the heck out of me. I have had numerous surgerys, basically have had everything that can be removed from your body, has been taken, but I have added a few more health issues and pounds since the last surgery that I had. I have never been out for a really long period either and that worries me. I am afraid I will have complications or not wake up, so could you tell me what the surgery was like for you?

I am sorry that I keep bothering you, but you have been there and you have so much knowledge of this that it makes me want to know more. I try to find out as much as I can on my own about all the issues I deal with, it is just nice to hear from someone who has experienced it.

Thank You and Many blessings to you-
Tina

 
Old 10-17-2009, 04:26 PM   #9
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

Hi Tina.....the 2 cervical spine surgeries I had were both posterior...meaning they went in from the back of the neck instead of the front. It is more painful but for the new surgery(the laminoplasty) it has to be done that way as did the long fusion. So yes, it hurts more from the back as they have to cut muscles and an anterior fusion doesn't.

I have tons of medical problems so I chose to have it done at a medical center that specializes in major orthopedic surgeries(spine is orthopedic as it deals with bones)and complex medical problems. Was 2+hours from home so that has it's own problems but it was worth it........I'm quite sure I wouldn't be alive today if I didn't do it that way.

The diabetes was a minor problem as it is checked constantly. They actually dealt with everything pretty well. Even had a psychologist there to help me after I woke up after stopping breathing.

If you're afraid of anesthesia, the anesthesia they use is very deep. Has to be so the cord doesn't react wile they are in the area. But I actually liked it....don't remember a thing about the recovery room or most of the first day or 2. HATE that feeling when they wake you up, still in the OR and you haven't had anything for pain yet and you're sick to your stomach. This way I have no memory and wake up, still sick, but back in my bed in my room and the pain meds have been started. My doc's hospital has spine patients stay in recovery and ventilated for up to 24 hours of you have swelling in your neck. the longest I was in there was about 8 hours after the 2nd surgery.

So my advice is that if you need surgery, consider going to the biggest and best hospital/medical center you can. You need all the specialists right at your fingertips. That way, when you are out, they are there watching your every bodily function.

Oh...and they give lots of pain meds for spine surgery but really....if you are a surgical veteran...you'll find it no worse than anything you've been through....probably easier. they kept asking me how much pain I was in and I told them 3-4. Why they asked. I had 2 knees replaced as once....now that hurts! Everything else is easy after that

I bet you know what I mean!

gentle hugs.................Jenny

 
Old 05-02-2010, 11:48 PM   #10
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

DOES ANYONE KNOW A NEURO SURGEON IN FLORIDA, THAT TAKES MEDICAID, 2 years of losing use of my arms and legs, and losing muscle mass!! SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!

 
Old 05-07-2010, 06:38 AM   #11
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

I too have had several cervical surgeries. I first had a laminectomy C6/7 in early 2003. I only had that after months of rehab and my right arm failing and couldn't even raise it. I had a neuro for that one. Then I was rear ended at work and I could feel it right then. And mind you this was a minor accident but I was yelling out the window and was had my neck twisted (its ok im ret. police now). Anyhow someone hit the guy behind me who hit me and then they fled. I went to the doc that week and was back to rehab and the pain was really bad. I had electric shocks going down my arms and I felt like I had icyhot all over my chest and shoulders. I had another MRI showing I had spinal cord impingement as well as other issues. By the time I had the surgery my spine was 6mm or less. I was referred to a spine specialist who was a ortho. I love the way he works. No bs just gets the job done. Then a year to the month from that one (seems I like the month of April to have surgeries) I was really feeling pain in my right hand and fingers. I was having the shooting pains again and then both hands hurt. My shoulder blades ached and my triceps felt like I had a knife sticking in them. I was now relished to dispatch and my supervisors cared nothing about my issues and made me work fast channels and even my LT. (who himself had major medical issues work related) was not at all sympathetic. It was awful. I was in pain management and finally my pain doctor said there was nothing he could do. I took pills, I didn't sleep, I dropped lots of things (even my little boys b-day cake). I had to take WC to a hearing to get my surgery approved. My laminectomy at C6/7 failed and now was lying on my nerve. I also started having a weak left leg. I tripped a lot and my leg felt out of air. My hips would ache and I had this overall feeling of being in a musty old attic breathing in dirt. No one would give me answers for the pain. Like Jenny said doctors do not care about pain. I found a Rheumatologist on my own who diagnosed me with Fibro. My spine surgeon called me Chronic Pain Syndrome complicated by Fibromyalgia.

I have pain. I have been suffering a horrible neck/eyeball headache for days. I stayed in bed all day yesterday (and I almost never ever do that). It seems everytime I plan a workout or do some kind of workout I have to pay for it for a week. I need to workout since it is good for FMS but do not have anyone to tell me how to. I just go back to my weight lifting days and try to go mild. I was a avid runner and horseman, now I walk and occasionally ride my old horses in the back pasture. (my little boy is riding with me ) Then again some days I feel great like nothing is wrong. That is until I get a massage and feel all the pain. Lyrica is a great help and i also take tramadol ER. I started adding B12 and that seems to help to.

If you think you have fibro go see a good Rhuemy. That is a different treatment then you will receive from a surgeon.

 
Old 05-12-2010, 03:06 AM   #12
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Re: Frustrated....does anyone have suggestions for cervical problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annemare View Post
DOES ANYONE KNOW A NEURO SURGEON IN FLORIDA, THAT TAKES MEDICAID, 2 years of losing use of my arms and legs, and losing muscle mass!! SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!
hello. I had to answer you. I don't know about the FLORIDA area. Please keep asking here. somebody must live in youre area. Be really careful about choosing a surgeon.

Keep us posted.

 
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