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Old 09-10-2012, 05:48 AM   #16
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Re: MRI Analyses

Quote:
Originally Posted by nochange View Post
Look what happened to you. One car accident destroyed your whole life. They should have never invented those machines called cars and keep those wagons. At least, with wagons you can't have whiplash. On top of it they cannot cure chronic pain caused by car accident with all those soft tissue damage.

They say with BMW you cannot be injured in case you are in a car accident.
Not cheap, but perhaps worth the price.
I appreciate the concern, but I don't see my whole life as destroyed. I am a bit of a history buff and lots of people were killed by wagons, either being thrown off or run over. Roads were cobblestone or ruts, it had to be a rough ride and not easy on the body. The Library of Congress has a program digitizing old newspapers from all over the US-it is called Chronicling America. Worth looking through the daily newspapers in mining and timber towns to see the toll of industrial accidents, outbreaks of polio and tuberculosis.

 
Old 09-10-2012, 05:57 AM   #17
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Re: MRI Analyses

Quote:
Originally Posted by WebDozer View Post
<< The neurosurgeon was not specific. >>

Not important, really. It's only your cervical spine....
...which is why I got myself booked into a top spine surgeon.
Fortunately my new PCP is extremely thorough. The Thoracic Outlet Syndrome stuff is really out of left field, though.

 
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:23 AM   #18
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Re: MRI Analyses

When you say your trapezius is atrophied, what do you mean by it?
Sory I am asking this, but I understand in car accident the trapezius gets damage, or am I wrong.

I have pain in my trapezius muscles since the accident. I know it's the trapezius muscle cause my doctor told me that what it's called. But it's only one the left side.
Right side is fine.

Thanks in advance

 
Old 09-10-2012, 07:36 AM   #19
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Re: MRI Analyses

Could be....but you couldn't get a whiplash from wagons....Whiplash started with train invention and cars. As of today there is no cure for whiplash and it causes agony for those who suffers from that. Pain in the neck cannot happen from wagons, ie whiplash.

You can check, you cannot get whiplash injury from wagons. so no soft tissue damage from wagons. Doctors, as we know, don't know how to treat soft tissue damage.
There is no cure for soft tissue damage when your tendons, ligament and muscles get damage.
Neck pain is not a normal pain cause neck has intersection of nerves in it and a little injury affect it. I once had a knee pain and it's nothing compares to neck pain. My knee is fine now and I don't waddle anymore. Neck is a different issue-----once it's injured, most of the time the pain cannot go away.

I just know that with cars like BMW you cannot get seriously injured. So it worth the money than not being able to work and function.

Last edited by nochange; 09-10-2012 at 07:37 AM.

 
Old 09-10-2012, 08:05 AM   #20
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Re: MRI Analyses

I would also get other opinions on the Thoracis Outlet Syndrome as I haven't heard of an ultrasound being the way to diagnose this.

There are many other tests that need to be done to really determine if you have this. You can google this and search on the Mayo Clinic website on tests and diagnosis.

And just to throw out there....people can get whiplash or any other type of injury anywhere, anytime in our lives. We can't stay locked up in our rooms fearful to get in a car or leave our house and enjoy our lives. I was a Firefighter/EMT for 10 years and believe me, there isn't a car out there that will prevent you from getting injured. BMW is not some magic vehicle as I've seen many deaths with every type of car/truck out there.

Everyone knows how "dangerous" motorcycles can be but that will never stop me from riding on one (as a passenger now) but I do everything possible to stay safe which means only riding with an experienced driver and wear protective gear. And I'll certainly never give up driving my car as that is freedom

KingFelix....it is good you are seeking out Board Certified Neurosurgeons to go over everything and explain things to you in great detail and if they can fix things mechanically without a fusion right now, that is best. I have had 3, two-level, fusions and the last one was going in from the front and the back of the neck.

The good news is that it took away the majority of my nerve pain. I just have residual pain from the scar tissue and other active herniations...

Keep us posted

 
Old 09-10-2012, 08:30 AM   #21
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Re: MRI Analyses

Quote:
Originally Posted by nochange View Post
When you say your trapezius is atrophied, what do you mean by it?
Sory I am asking this, but I understand in car accident the trapezius gets damage, or am I wrong.

I have pain in my trapezius muscles since the accident. I know it's the trapezius muscle cause my doctor told me that what it's called. But it's only one the left side.
Right side is fine.

Thanks in advance
My right trapezius atrophy is new, within the last 6-9 months. Looking in a mirror, it appears half the size of my left. I hadn't noticed until the Spine/Rehab doctor, who was evaluating me for my neck problems, pointed it out. I knew my right arm/shoulder girdle were weak and it has been painful for over a year, with no specific onset. I have described it as 'my right arm doesn't feel attached'. The spine doctor and webdozer are the only 2 people who understood. The spine doctor thinks I might have a labral tear in my right shoulder socket. The car accident was 30 years ago-I have managed pretty well for a long time. My sympathies on your left trapezius pain-I found the shoulder pain nearly intolerable. Good luck, shoulders are tricky.

 
Old 09-10-2012, 08:46 AM   #22
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Re: MRI Analyses

Thanks, and I agree. Have to keep getting out and moving. I know the ultrasound is just a preliminary for TOS and I have the full scalene block and exam scheduled in October with a vascular surgeon who specializes in TOS. I knew someone with the extra cervical rib who had the extensive surgery. I know I don't have the extra rib, so TOS wasn't on my radar.

 
Old 09-11-2012, 12:18 AM   #23
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Re: MRI Analyses

Hi KingFelix -

I find your post very interesting as I have gone through a similar situation over the past 20 years. <<TOS wasn't on your radar..>> My story might help it make sense. I believe all of your issues may be connected...like a compounding problem.

After a car accident in 1991, I had pain in the trapezius, rhomboid, shoulder and deltoid of my left side. (As well as the expected neck pain from whiplash). I too had significant atrophy of the trapezius and rhomboid muscles on that side. Three years of one doctor after another, differing opinions - neck or shoulder? Many MRI's and rounds of PT only to still be in pain and the doctors scratching their heads. Neck MRI only showed slight disc bulge, but the shoulder MRI's revealed tears in two muscles. My shoulder was hyper-mobile by this point but was not at the time of initial injury.

Long story short ... The MAIN problem was coming from the scalene muscles on that side. Significant nerve compression was revealed with EMG and nerve conduction studies. The final test for confirmation was a nerve block performed by a neurosurgeon - it was near the collar bone. (Long time ago - don't remember specifically what they called it). I ultimately had surgery of the scalene muscles to decompress the dorsal scapular nerve. This is the "origination" nerve that serves the muscles of the scapula area, top of shoulder and upper arm. The surgery almost immediately relieved the referred pain I was having and after several months of PT, I was able to regain the muscle strength and function. At the time no one ever referred to my situation as TOS, but doctors I have seen in recent years have called it that.

So next came the 2nd problem - rotator cuff repair surgery. Once he opened me up, he thought most of the damage had been caused by all the muscle disfunction that had been created by the (scalene) nerve compression. I must have been compensating with whatever muscles I could get to work in that shoulder and arm. I had literally worn holes in the 2 muscles by mis-using my arm & shoulder. Muscles shortened and sewn up, a small amount of bone removed and the bursa was so huge - had to go too.

Now, some 19+ years post car accident, I have the expected neck issues. DDD, osteophytes, disc bulges, an extruded disc, facet hypertrophy, reversal of lordosis at C4-5 and grade II spondylolithesis of C3 on C4....blah...blah...blah. Several neck surgeries are on the horizon.

Just wanted to comment on your post as is sounded so similar to my journey. I'm glad you are getting that nerve block of the scalenes - it should determine whether or not you have TOS. Then they may follow up with NCS & EMG's to pinpoint the location of the compression.

You obviously have multiple issues going on: several cervical spine problems, shoulder issues and that "possible TOS" causing muscle atrophy. You obviously will be having at least neck surgery in the near future. I've had the TOS surgery and the rotator cuff repaired, but will hold off on the spine surgeries as long as I can.

Sorry you are having to deal with all these problems and wish you the best getting everything figured out. Hopefully you can have the least amount of surgery necessary to relieve your pain and symptoms.

Good luck and please keep us updated on your progress.

 
Old 09-11-2012, 04:46 AM   #24
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Re: MRI Analyses

What is TOS? that is very interesting by the way. I had a whiplash and never experienced any shoulder pain.

So as you see, whiplash last a lifetime. Not like doctors think that it comes and go. It stays with you for life.

At least with wagons there was not whiplash.
too many miserable and sad people are left in this world to suffer cause of car accidents. (most common injury whiplash).
THere is nothing more frustrating and hurting than neck pain. Literally pain in the neck. Tendons, ligaments and and muscles get damage for life and there is no cure. not even single treatment to take this agony away.

Look what happened to both of you. One whiplash and all your life has been destroyed.
Back and forth with your neck and that's it.

Last edited by nochange; 09-11-2012 at 04:49 AM.

 
Old 09-11-2012, 07:00 AM   #25
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Re: MRI Analyses

Quote:
Originally Posted by nochange View Post
What is TOS? that is very interesting by the way. I had a whiplash and never experienced any shoulder pain.

So as you see, whiplash last a lifetime. Not like doctors think that it comes and go. It stays with you for life.

At least with wagons there was not whiplash.
too many miserable and sad people are left in this world to suffer cause of car accidents. (most common injury whiplash).
THere is nothing more frustrating and hurting than neck pain. Literally pain in the neck. Tendons, ligaments and and muscles get damage for life and there is no cure. not even single treatment to take this agony away.

Look what happened to both of you. One whiplash and all your life has been destroyed.
Back and forth with your neck and that's it.
TOS is Thoracic Outlet Syndrome-it would be worthwhile for you to look it up. You might find some helpful information with regards to your situation. Best of luck to you. I would like to emphasize once again that I don't feel my life has been destroyed-many people are dealing with far worse health problems-and I have finally found a couple of excellent doctor's who are making all the difference. I hope you can find some relief from you neck injury.

 
Old 09-11-2012, 07:11 AM   #26
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Wink Re: MRI Analyses

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQpam View Post
Hi KingFelix -

I find your post very interesting as I have gone through a similar situation over the past 20 years. <<TOS wasn't on your radar..>> My story might help it make sense. I believe all of your issues may be connected...like a compounding problem.

After a car accident in 1991, I had pain in the trapezius, rhomboid, shoulder and deltoid of my left side. (As well as the expected neck pain from whiplash). I too had significant atrophy of the trapezius and rhomboid muscles on that side. Three years of one doctor after another, differing opinions - neck or shoulder? Many MRI's and rounds of PT only to still be in pain and the doctors scratching their heads. Neck MRI only showed slight disc bulge, but the shoulder MRI's revealed tears in two muscles. My shoulder was hyper-mobile by this point but was not at the time of initial injury.

Long story short ... The MAIN problem was coming from the scalene muscles on that side. Significant nerve compression was revealed with EMG and nerve conduction studies. The final test for confirmation was a nerve block performed by a neurosurgeon - it was near the collar bone. (Long time ago - don't remember specifically what they called it). I ultimately had surgery of the scalene muscles to decompress the dorsal scapular nerve. This is the "origination" nerve that serves the muscles of the scapula area, top of shoulder and upper arm. The surgery almost immediately relieved the referred pain I was having and after several months of PT, I was able to regain the muscle strength and function. At the time no one ever referred to my situation as TOS, but doctors I have seen in recent years have called it that.

So next came the 2nd problem - rotator cuff repair surgery. Once he opened me up, he thought most of the damage had been caused by all the muscle disfunction that had been created by the (scalene) nerve compression. I must have been compensating with whatever muscles I could get to work in that shoulder and arm. I had literally worn holes in the 2 muscles by mis-using my arm & shoulder. Muscles shortened and sewn up, a small amount of bone removed and the bursa was so huge - had to go too.

Now, some 19+ years post car accident, I have the expected neck issues. DDD, osteophytes, disc bulges, an extruded disc, facet hypertrophy, reversal of lordosis at C4-5 and grade II spondylolithesis of C3 on C4....blah...blah...blah. Several neck surgeries are on the horizon.

Just wanted to comment on your post as is sounded so similar to my journey. I'm glad you are getting that nerve block of the scalenes - it should determine whether or not you have TOS. Then they may follow up with NCS & EMG's to pinpoint the location of the compression.

You obviously have multiple issues going on: several cervical spine problems, shoulder issues and that "possible TOS" causing muscle atrophy. You obviously will be having at least neck surgery in the near future. I've had the TOS surgery and the rotator cuff repaired, but will hold off on the spine surgeries as long as I can.

Sorry you are having to deal with all these problems and wish you the best getting everything figured out. Hopefully you can have the least amount of surgery necessary to relieve your pain and symptoms.

Good luck and please keep us updated on your progress.
Your situation sounds almost identical-including the trouble with the rhomboid. Thanks very much for sharing your story, it is very helpful.

 
Old 09-21-2012, 08:00 AM   #27
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Re: MRI Analyses

The spine surgeon, who is dual certified in ortho and neuro, said my discs have 'pancaked' and will require either fusion or artificial disc replacement. He likes the artificial discs, but said the insurance coverage could be an issue (off label application). He only does an anterior approach. The post-op recovery for ADR is 6 weeks, no collar versus 3 months with a collar for ACDF. Both the head surgeon and the surgeon doing his fellowship were a bit surprised at my almost normal EMG studies. The head surgeon said the 3 level posterior foraminotomy wouldn't have worked-I had far too much disc compression and stenosis. ADR seems more attractive to me, and it looks like I can wait out the insurance issues, given that the nerve's aren't showing severe damage.

I am seeing an OS today about my rotator cuff tear. MRI shows no labral tear, but a complete supraspinatus tear. Not sure that tear would cause the hand drop. The scalene block is not scheduled until 25 October. I am going to wait for the results of the TOS assessment so that I can prioritize the issues. TOS does cause hand drop and headaches and I definitely have very tight, bound up scalenes on the right side.

 
Old 09-21-2012, 08:33 AM   #28
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Re: MRI Analyses

You guys need to do lot's of surgeries(especially neck) caused by car's accidents.
Was it worth it? no.

The hell with all those cars - it caused more damaged then good. They cannot cure
chronic pain not even with surgeries. Neck pain will stay with you for life even if you do a surgery. and then more and more pain medications all the time especially narcotics if you suffer from chronic pain caused by car accident. (which is impossible to treat soft tissue damaged-----cause doctors don't have the technology to fix soft tissue damage).

They have many other technologies but to fix soft tissue damage???----no no no, doctors cannot do anything about it. (muscles, tendons and ligaments that got damaged).

They should have kept the carriages and keep the world a little slow just like at the time of Lincoln. AT least no WHIPLASH was there. Carriages cannot cause whiplash.
and so no chronic pain in the neck that last for EVER.

Just keeping the world slower should not be a problem. Too many chronic pain patients from even the lightest car crash like happened to me. Doesn't have to be an horrific one.

 
Old 09-21-2012, 09:23 AM   #29
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Re: MRI Analyses

Quote:
Originally Posted by nochange View Post
You guys need to do lot's of surgeries(especially neck) caused by car's accidents.
Was it worth it? no.

The hell with all those cars - it caused more damaged then good. They cannot cure
chronic pain not even with surgeries. Neck pain will stay with you for life even if you do a surgery. and then more and more pain medications all the time especially narcotics if you suffer from chronic pain caused by car accident. (which is impossible to treat soft tissue damaged-----cause doctors don't have the technology to fix soft tissue damage).

They have many other technologies but to fix soft tissue damage???----no no no, doctors cannot do anything about it. (muscles, tendons and ligaments that got damaged).

They should have kept the carriages and keep the world a little slow just like at the time of Lincoln. AT least no WHIPLASH was there. Carriages cannot cause whiplash.
and so no chronic pain in the neck that last for EVER.

Just keeping the world slower should not be a problem. Too many chronic pain patients from even the lightest car crash like happened to me. Doesn't have to be an horrific one.
Can you please leave this be? My car accident was 30 years ago. I was able to compete on a crew team, run 6-10 miles regularly, go into a full backbend from a standing position, do a handstand and much more in the past 5 years, until the rotator cuff tear last year. I agree the neck pain has remained, but I am not on narcotics or seeing a pain management doc; I am specifically trying to avoid that. Look into 'Relaxation Response' through the Benson-Henry Institute at Massachusettss General Hospital. Might help, can't hurt.

In the time of Lincoln I would more likely have died from pneumonia I had at age 3, if I didn't die from polio, measles, cholera or in childbirth.

 
Old 09-21-2012, 09:36 AM   #30
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Re: MRI Analyses

I think that the FDA has only approved the ADR for one level in the cervical region. (Not 100% positive on this but just what I have read)

And even though this surgeon says they are both board certified in Ortho and Neuro....it's more about what do they specialize in and focus on now.

I would ask them specifically how many ADRs they have done in the cervical area.

I would ask to speak with other patients who have had success with this surgery. Most all Drs. have gotten the ok from some patients (following the HIPAA law) to share their story with another patient.

And most important, ask the surgeon directly if he has any financial agreement with the manufacturer of the ADR he wants to use.

I also have not heard of someone needing to be in a collar for 3 months after ACDF surgery. With the use of hardware/titanium....a collar is either not necessary at all or only for a few weeks. It's only without hardware is it needed but many surgeons don't do that type anymore.

Again...I have all the same issues as you with many severe herniations, stenosis, bone spurs, radiculopathy...etc. So I'm quite familiar with all of this.

My Neurosurgeon and their practice is rated one of the top 20 in the country and my Neuro only did cervical surgeries. Orthos are more focused on the lumbar area. So that is why it's important to know which one this Dr. specializes in because the more they do of one or the other, the better their expertise.

This is where I would be very careful that they are not going for the foraminotomy or the fusion because he wants to "have fun" using the new ADR...LOL...I say this half in jest but half not. You need to read the latest (October) Readers' Digest and the article about "50 things your surgeon won't tell you". It's very eye opening.

I would just make sure that you have gotten all the opinions you feel comfortable with, talked with other patients, and feel 100% comfortable with what is being done since it's your body.

I'm not sure why they were surprised about your EMG studies...Many people can have herniated discs and stenosis but have no symptoms. If they aren't pushing on specific nerves....this is a good thing but it's not unusual.

If you took 100 people off the street right now over the age of 30...you would find close to 75% of people with disc/spine issues. As mentioned...some can have little to no symptoms at all and those who do, 85% of those issues resolve themselves over time or through non surgical means.

Then you can have someone with excruciating pain but a pretty clean MRI but all it takes is a spur or disc pushing on a nerve.

Anyway....whatever you choose we are here to support and hope it goes well for you

Last edited by Ilovemycutedog; 09-21-2012 at 10:05 AM.

 
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