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Old 09-02-2004, 02:31 PM   #1
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softcrush HB User
Riddle re: shocking meds/labs

FORGIVE the whopper post please. Thank you in advance of course!

I just got off the phone with the endo. She had my latest lab results, which are as follows: TSH 110, T4F .024 (.7-1.8) and T3F 0.7 (2.3-5.0). They are WAY, WAY out of line. The T's are far too low, and the TSH is way too high. She guessed correctly that I stopped taking the thyroid med. Prior to making the decision to curtial the meds, it was evident I was way overmedicated with hyper symptoms and high pulse rate at 114.

The pulse rate has been headed down gradually every day, but it every time I tried periodically to take even a quarter grain of Armour, it would shoot up (123 at one point) again, and I would go hyper again. Now, its three weeks since I stopped taking the meds every day and the pulse is STILL hitting 90 in the morning sometimes. Even so, this is THE BEST I have felt since starting the replacement meds following the full T in April. (I have endured five debilitating agonizing months).

Now, here's the riddle: The labs have looked much more in line when I felt like hell, but now when they are crazy looking, I feel well. Doc says she has never seen anything like it. Instead she emphasizes, I should not be feeling as well as I am right now with my labs looking the way they do. She says I'm in danger of getting toxic and sick so I had better start taking the med again.

Problem is, I don't know what would make more sense. My plan had been to start taking 1/4 grain of Armour and work my way up W/ADJUSTMENTS EVERY THREE WEEKS to a dose that would bring the labs, pulse, and health in line and stablized. Whatever adjustments were necessary after that, I figure separate T3 or T4 pills could be supplemented. She says she prefers the Sythroid over the Armour and believes the high pulse rates are likely the result of the Armour because it contains T3.

She says 150 micrograms of Sythroid daily would probably be a good fit. Now, to reach back, I did take 100 micrograms for a month in the begining of my treatment and didn't feel good at all --hypo-- (although the labs were more in keeping to what the doctors want, the TSH was not as suppressed at they wanted at 4.95). It was right after that, that I switched to Armour.

I never took consistant doses, so I never felt well except when I scaled back the Armour before and skipped a few days of doses a couple months back. This means, so far there is no baseline to go by. I, of course, didn't grasp the importance of this, until I gathered enough research and got yelled at by nasty doctors who didn't know what to tell me about my lab readings.

The question is, what do you think is going on here with these latest results and what do you recommend?

~S

PS. Only recent doctor visits tell me I had a follicular variant and are recommending a scan?! Are my labs currently in line with the optimum for the procedure?

Last edited by softcrush; 09-02-2004 at 06:09 PM. Reason: fixes and additional question

 
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Old 09-02-2004, 08:46 PM   #2
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Re: Riddle re: shocking meds/labs

Quote:
Originally Posted by softcrush
I just got off the phone with the endo. She had my latest lab results, which are as follows: TSH 110, T4F .024 (.7-1.8) and T3F 0.7 (2.3-5.0). They are WAY, WAY out of line. The T's are far too low, and the TSH is way too high. She guessed correctly that I stopped taking the thyroid med.
Your labs indicate EXTREME hypothyroidism. You should be on some kind of meds and should be glad that are going to the doctor. Both T3 and T4 are dangerously low in my opinion, and I am sure most docs would agree, as does your doc. You are likely bordering on Myxedema Coma.

Quote:
Prior to making the decision to curtial the meds, it was evident I was way overmedicated with hyper symptoms and high pulse rate at 114.

The pulse rate has been headed down gradually every day, but it every time I tried periodically to take even a quarter grain of Armour, it would shoot up (123 at one point) again, and I would go hyper again. Now, its three weeks since I stopped taking the meds every day and the pulse is STILL hitting 90 in the morning sometimes. Even so, this is THE BEST I have felt since starting the replacement meds following the full T in April. (I have endured five debilitating agonizing months).
Pulse fluctuaions are often seen as an adjustment to a new dose and dose changes should be made VERY slowly.. Also, if you have adrenal fatigue, you WILL have very strong reactiuons to dose changes. All changes in dose should be very slow and small to avoid problems, and if you have adrenal problems they MUST be treated to avoid dangerous reactions to thyroid meds. If you read the prescription insert (written for doctors and pharmacists to better understand the medication) it clearly states that adrenal issues should be addressed first. Here's a quote from the insert for Synthroid:

Quote:
Levothyroxine sodium is...contraindicated in the patients with uncorrected adrenal insufficiency, as thyroid hormones increase tissue demands, for adrenocortical hormones and may thereby precipitate acute adrenal crisis
Adrenal crisis is characterized by many of the same symptoms of hyperthyroidism, you need to look it up and know how to treat it yourself, because most doctors won't touch it unless you are on your deathbed.

More from the prescription insert:

Quote:
Use of levothyroxine sodium in patients with concomitant diabetes mellitus, diabetes insipidus or adrenal cortical insufficiency may aggravate the intensity of their symptoms. Appropriate adjustments of the various therapeutic measures directed at these concomitant endocrine diseases may therefore be required. Treatment of myxedema coma may require simultaneous administration of glucocorticoids.
Glucocorticoids, specifically Cortisol, in this case, are produced by the adrenal glands in response to stress and to control blood sugar levels in times of crisis. IF you have adrenal fatigue, your doc will likely prescrobe cortisol in a low dose to take daily.

Quote:
Now, here's the riddle: The labs have looked much more in line when I felt like hell, but now when they are crazy looking, I feel well. Doc says she has never seen anything like it. Instead she emphasizes, I should not be feeling as well as I am right now with my labs looking the way they do. She says I'm in danger of getting toxic and sick so I had better start taking the med again.
I agree with your doc whole-heartedly.

Quote:
Problem is, I don't know what would make more sense. My plan had been to start taking 1/4 grain of Armour and work my way up W/ADJUSTMENTS EVERY THREE WEEKS to a dose that would bring the labs, pulse, and health in line and stablized. Whatever adjustments were necessary after that, I figure separate T3 or T4 pills could be supplemented. She says she prefers the Sythroid over the Armour and believes the high pulse rates are likely the result of the Armour because it contains T3.
I agree with you here, but not your doc, this time.

Quote:
She says 150 micrograms of Sythroid daily would probably be a good fit.
Your doc is making an estimate, and may be right, BUT I think meds should be prescribe based on a combination of symptoms and lab work to keep things in chek, adn making an estimation liek that is not a good appraoch to treatment. Like you were saying, start on a low dose and move up. This applies to ANY thyroid med.

Quote:
Now, to reach back, I did take 100 micrograms for a month in the begining of my treatment and didn't feel good at all --hypo-- (although the labs were more in keeping to what the doctors want, the TSH was not as suppressed at they wanted at 4.95). It was right after that, that I switched to Armour.
Possibly due to adrenal fatigue? Hmmmm....

Quote:
I never took consistant doses, so I never felt well except when I scaled back the Armour before and skipped a few days of doses a couple months back.
Insonsistency is a BIG no-no. ALWAYS be consistent. If you have to cut back, cut back, but be consistent, from day to day and over a period of time of at least 6 weeks before having labs done. You seem to know this because you said

Quote:
This means, so far there is no baseline to go by. I, of course, didn't grasp the importance of this, until I gathered enough research and got yelled at by nasty doctors who didn't know what to tell me about my lab readings.
I am yelling at you too, but only gently and only because I care enough to make sure you understand the importance of this.

Quote:
The question is, what do you think is going on here with these latest results and what do you recommend?
Get on some meds, adn staret slowly at a low dose. Be patient! Do your homework and read up on adreanl fatigue and how you can help yourself. Docotrs are often reluctant to treat adrena; probelms unless you are on your death-bed. A good book to read is Adrenal Fatigue: 21st Century Stress Syndrome Do an internet search for it and buy the book or urge your local library to get a copy.

[quote]PS. Only recent doctor visits tell me I had a follicular variant and are recommending a scan?! Are my labs currently in line with the optimum for the procedure?[QUOTE]

I am not sure here. It will determine if your thyroid gland is taking up iodine and help find nodules that may be producing thyroid hormone on your own, but I dont' have confidence that it will reveal much in your case.
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Danny

I am not a doctor, nor have I ever played one on TV...

 
Old 09-02-2004, 08:49 PM   #3
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Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

Quote:
...every time I tried periodically to take even a quarter grain of Armour, it would shoot up (123 at one point) again, and I would go hyper again. Now, its three weeks since I stopped taking the meds every day and the pulse is STILL hitting 90 in the morning sometimes.
There's no way to know if you "went hyper" without testing your free T levels. Sure, there are typical hyper symptoms that can happen at any time, but unless your hormones are at or above the top of the range, you aren't hyper. The fact that you still have a racing heart at times pretty much proves it isn't related to the med that you stopped three weeks ago.

Your doctor is right. You're heading for real trouble unless the two of you together can figure out a way to get your treatment on track. I'm a huge fan of Armour, but it might be a factor in your HR problem. Soooo... try the Synthroid or another T4 again. Did you start on 100 mcgs Synthroid? That would be an awfully big starter dose... and that could have been its own problem right there. Starting at 50 would've been better.
And then... there's the inconsistency of all that up, down, on-again, off-again, switch to Armour stuff. Not good.

That's my 2¢ worth. Hope it gives you something to think about.

 
Old 09-02-2004, 09:22 PM   #4
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Exclamation Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

softcrush...Oh dear! I'm new to the world of TD so can't add any advice except to say that I'm sorry you've gone through such a difficult time.

I truly hope for your sake and the sake of your loved ones that you'll follow through with appropriate treatment...and immediately...this is nothing to mess with!

And please do have your adrenals checked as Meep suggested. My doctor has been working to beef up my adrenals for the last 6 weeks and I won't even be starting my Armour for probably another 2. He made it clear that treating the thyroid before taking care of any adrenal issues would likely cause me problems in the long run.

Please keep us posted and I wish you the best!

 
Old 09-03-2004, 01:49 AM   #5
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Felix73 HB User
Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

Can someone tell me what the symptoms of adrenal fatigue are please?

It's not something that has come up in my own case but i'm interested to find out more.

Thanks,

Felix x

 
Old 09-03-2004, 10:04 AM   #6
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softcrush HB User
Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

Thank you for your swift responses. As you might guess this is all so troubling to me, and I just continue to be confused by the entire thing and there never seems to be an end in sight.

I tried looking into the adrenal thing and that only confused me more.

I don't understand how it plays a role here and why it needs to be treated BEFORE I treat the thyroid.

If I need to take the 1/4 grain of Armour shouldn't I take that and drink licorice tea at the same time/different times of day? Yesterday I started the med again, and because I'm so confused, I already took a different dose today and different med.

You see, I can never be consistant because I am so paniced/scared/confused, and I just want to be better.

If I do take the 1/4 Grain and the pulse goes up, should I just keep taking the same dose every day regardless of the symptoms/pulse bounce? Would one expect the pulse will jump and I'll have to endure the symptoms for a few days and the pulse will settle into the 1/4 grain?

Will the licorice tea (if I can even stomache that) really take care of the rapid pulse. All there alternatives to the licorice tea that might agree with my system better? I didn't sleep last night because of worry about this.

I do feel some hypo symptoms, like the leg coldness. I felt very faint earlier when I got up of the couch too fast.

My pulse was 88 just now, and that's down from first thing this morning of 104. Why is it spiking when I first get out of bed in the morning like that? I took 1 synthroid and 1/4 grain of armour yesterday. Why does it drop during the day. It was 76 last night at 10 pm. Is this bad or good? Does it indicate the adrenal fatigue you speak of ?

Once again thank you very much.

~S

 
Old 09-03-2004, 10:46 AM   #7
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Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

I just read up that pregnalone can help support the adrenals. I have so of that cream I purchased a maybe a year and a half ago. Would it hurt to give that a try?

 
Old 09-03-2004, 11:04 AM   #8
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Smile Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

[b]softcrush[/b
about your medication questions...what does your doctor recommend?? And what kind of doctor is he/she?

About pregnenolone...I've researched this myself and want to look into it as an additional treatment to help strengthen my adrenals. This is must my humble opinion but personally I highly recommend you ask your doctor first...perhaps even having your levels tested to see if you are low. This is what I'll be doing to determine if I should take it or not.

There are many things available over-the-counter that are still quite powerful and can cause many problems if we self-treat. This is where a DO or Naturopath or "cross-over" M.D. comes in so handy...

.

Last edited by Administrator; 03-01-2005 at 03:41 AM.

 
Old 09-03-2004, 11:41 AM   #9
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softcrush HB User
Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

Can I merely "support" the adrenal through diet and vitamin supplements or do I have to go through testing and get replacement hormone prescribed?

 
Old 09-03-2004, 12:07 PM   #10
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Smile

Again, this is merely my personal and humble opinion...others may disagree with me...but I would most definitely get your doctor (or a new doctor) to test your adrenals, including a saliva test, so as to determine which would be the best support for your adrenals.

In the meantime, a healthy diet and vitamin supplements are good for most everyone.

There are varying degress of adrenal insufficiency. Some do very well with just diet and supplements to strengthen their adrenals, but for some who may actually need the hormone replacement, diet and supplements alone may not do nearly enough to help their adrenals...and may needlessly prolong their journey to feeling better. Testing one's adrenals, especially with a saliva test, is a good starting point for determining what YOUR adrenals in particular need so that you can get better.

Also, what kind of doctor do you have, softcrush? I really do hope you'll be feeling better soon.

Last edited by Administrator; 03-01-2005 at 03:42 AM.

 
Old 09-03-2004, 12:28 PM   #11
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Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

Meep/johnsbabe/Midwest:

I've printed out your posts and read them through several times. Lets see if I have this correct....

#1 Get adrenals tested
#2 start on low dose of Thyroid med....(synthroid at 50 mcg or 1/4 grain Armour)
#3 Get prescription for cortisol (low dose)

Can I take the cortisol and the T-med simultaneously...meaning the same day? Would you take them at separate times a day?

Sorry it takes me so long to grasp this stuff. You guys are very kind to put up with me.

 
Old 09-03-2004, 12:38 PM   #12
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Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

Hey Johnsbabe,

I'm so silly I didn't even read what you've been writing till just now, since I've had my face surfing through adrenal stuff. My doc is an endocrinologist. I was doctor shopping when I stumbled across and wasn't planning on keeping her, but when I kept going to other doctors they were impatient with me since it was clear I was confused (and hated that I was Armour). My first doctor put me on the synthroid and I couldn't beleive how bad I felt and couldn't get him to test Ft3 levels.

There is a compounding lab that will do saliva tests. I'll check to see if they do adrenal checks if the endo doesn't want to get involved. The endo did say she thought there was something else going on if my pulse was so sensitive to the t-med. She pointed to the Armout, but perhaps she'll be open to testing the adrenals.

You recommend to saliva test over the other ways, blood or urine?

Last edited by Administrator; 03-01-2005 at 03:43 AM.

 
Old 09-04-2004, 10:16 AM   #13
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Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

Update:

I have now taken the Synthroid for three days. I took 50mcg. The muscle-spasm- ladden-fatigue has returned and now I'm bolted to the sofa.

Last night and again today I drank some O.J., ate some brown rice, an egg, and popped some vitamins, including zinc and Coq10, to support adrenals until I can get the doc's ear on Tuesday.

The pulse checked in this morning was 83 (not bad).

 
Old 09-05-2004, 08:12 AM   #14
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Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

Update:

Fourth day of Synthroid 50mcg.

As predicted, the renewed fatigue from taking the medicine has brought along with it spaciness, headache, muscle pain, and a hopeless outlook. The med seems to spark off a flurry of nightmarish dreams during fitfilled sleep.

pulse: 85
basal body temp: 97.92

~S

 
Old 09-05-2004, 09:27 AM   #15
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softcrush HB User
Re: Riddle re: meds/labs

Question:

If I can argue the doc into testing the adrenals, how do I know which tests to get her to order, how to interpret them, and then how to get her to prescribe something that adressed the problem without causing me more problems?

How long is it likely to take to get the adrenals out of their weakened state if that is even what is wrong with me, considering I'm taking the adrenal stressing T-med?

Please help, any input would be appreciated. You guys are all I have.

~S

 
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