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Old 11-27-2007, 05:19 AM   #1
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How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

Hi all

Have posted a couple of times and no response the second time. I was being tested for Hashimitos after a blood test came back showing a result of Peroxidase Ab 830 with a ref range of <12. Someone on this forum told me I have hashimitos but without further tests could not comment. I now have results of Free T4 12.9 pmol/L (9.0 - 19.0) and Free T3 4.2 (2.6 - 6.0) and TSH 2.0 mU/L (0.3 - 5.0). An ultra sound from what the naturopath I have been seeing said was okay. The naturopath has put me on a tonic but lately I have been feeling tired again and nervy itchy with odd pains. I'm not sure what to do from here as it seems that thyroid is prevalent in my family (from discussing with other family members) but they have dealt with it through MD's whereas I have with the naturopath. I am going through a terribly stressful time in my life at the moment and wonder if this is causing symptoms? How serious is this thyroid condition and should I take it any further? Many thanks for any thoughts.

 
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:18 AM   #2
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

My hypothyroidism is not due to Hashimotos, but I will share what I have read about it anyway...

Hashiomotos is an auto-immune disease. And you have high antibodies that are attacking your thyroid gland. Over time your thyroid is likely to work less and less; and this may not happen in a straight line. In other words, you may go through periods of it working better at times and then less, levels going up and down.

This makes it, harder to treat. It looks like your TSH is close to being too high and your FREE T4 is close to being too low. Your levels may stay this way for a while or they may be dropping at this very moment (since the antibodies are woking against your thyroid).

Hopefully someone who has first hand experience with Hashiomotos will post and help you more.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:07 AM   #3
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

Hashimoto's is a real pain in the neck.

As GCC says it is an autoimmune disorder where your body sees your thyroid as a foriegn threat and attacks it accordingly. Your FT3 is too low and you need to be medicated in my opinion. Your FT4 is low but not out of the normal range. In Hashi patients the big thing is we tend to go hypoT and or TSH may not get out of the normal range... ever. My mother has Hashi's and Graves. She finally talked them into evaluating the remaining half of her thyroid. It is dead, kaput.. no iodine uptake noted at all. But her TSH is 2.33. How can this be? No thyroid.. no thyroid hormone.. but the pituitary gland is telling her body that its needs are met. Impossible. Well recent studies have proven that the Hashi antibodies bind with the pituitary receptor sites making the pituitary gland think it is getting more thyroid hormone produced than is actually produced. So this means in Hashi's patients you may never get out of normal range for your TSh and you need to be treated based on your Ft3 and Ft4 concentrations only.

What are you aiming for? Well you want your TSH around 1, but if you are taking a T3 supplement.. .the TSH is irrelevant. You also want your Ft3 and Ft4 levels to be between the 50-80&#37; of laboratory normal range. This is optimal and what is optimal for you is when the Ft3 and Ft4 concentrations are balanced and you no longer suffer from symptoms.

The TPO and TG antibodies themselves are very aggressive and can attack you in the form of spontaneous hives, boosted adrenal out put, even cause the initiation of other AI based conditions.. such as psoriasis, postural tachycardia syndrome, allergic rhinitis.. the list goes on. So the sooner you are treated and the antibodies reduced the better off you are. Look into prophylactic treatment of Hashimoto's. All say treatment with T4 minimum if you suffer from three of the main symptoms.

Treatment: Well you need T3 and T4 supplementation if not now soon this can come in simple T4 substitution (Synthroid) or a T3/T4 combination (Armour/synthroid-cytomel). In the early phase of Hashimoto's you are in a thyroid war state. The thyroid gets hit by the TPOAb and TGAb antibodies.. these kill off tones of thyroid tissue. This causes the now depressed thyroid to reply with an excessive thyroid production to compensate for lost thyroid tissue production capabilities... this is a depreciating spiral until the thyroid is completely dead. Early Hashimoto's is rough. Many go through hyper-hypo shifts when this is occuring most MD's do not want to medicate because they fear the hyper shifts more than the hypo shifts.

I believe am five years into my Hashi's, only knowing about my condition since July 2007, because I had a horrible pregnancy and all sorts of hypoT symptoms and issues have plagued me since. I am still fighting for a prophylactic medication regime. My TSH is 1.67 but my FT3 and FT4 levels are at 28% of the normal range. I have symptoms out the whazoo and have developed another new AI induced condition POTS (postural tachycardia syndrome). I developed rosecea, exzyma, severe contact dermatitis, and gained new allergies over the last five years since being pregnant with my first and only child. Hashimoto's is a condition that one is either predetermined to get or not. It can be activated by viral or bacterial infection trigger, pregnancy, or another AI attack. It is genetically dominant in females, there is an 80% dominance that a female child of Hashi's parent will develop Hashi's or Graves... or both. I remember someone telling that the male chance of passing and activating one of the AITD conditions was 40%, but I have not cross checked that one. My mother and her four sisters have combinations of Hashi's and/or Graves (Mom- Hashitoxicosis, Aunt1- Hashitoxicosis, Aunt2- Hashi's, Aunt3 - HypoT, Aunt4-Graves (4/5 = 80% as studies predict neat huh/)). This was passed to them from their paternal Grandmother and Great Aunt. And my mother past it to me. My brother is fine and my son does not show the antibodies yet. I have a post further back where I wrote up what my Endo shared with me about Hashi's and what i would have to do if I got pregnant again. It is a few pages back in the posting... let me dig up the link and get back to you.

So there is nothing to do that will cure Hashi's.. but you treat it like you would HypoT.. for that is what you will eventually be with active Hashimoto's. You are not alone. I hope this helps answer some of your questions.

MG
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Last edited by mkgbrook; 11-27-2007 at 07:14 AM.

 
Old 11-27-2007, 08:51 AM   #4
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

Does your naturopath have the legal right to prescribe thyroid hormone? I ask because here in the US, many n'paths are not licensed to prescribe. My concern is that yours is giving you a tonic because he isn't allowed to prescribe. If he is prohibited by law to give you thyroid hormone, his main interest may be in doing something... anything... to keep you coming back as his patient. It has been known to happen.

Both of your free Ts have fallen below mid-range, and that's too low for most people. There is a slim possibility that the "tonic" you're taking can raise them a little, for a while, but it won't work permanently. Eventually, you'll have to replace the missing hormones with a prescription.

 
Old 11-28-2007, 03:47 AM   #5
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do? Reply to GCC, Mkgbrook & Midwest1

Wow. Much to digest. Thank you all for your informative replies. Over the last few days I have been so so tired, today I just crashed this afternoon after a huge night's sleep, I could not stay awake. The tiredness is getting to me, am very worried about trying to work etc as I am in the process of trying to get employment whilst moving interstate back to my children. I keep wondering if this is all stress but in the meantime I was able to obtain my ultrasound results and the ingredients in the tonic I am taking in the meantime and would appreciate your thoughts on the results. Firstly, the ultrasound indicates I have two nodules one 3mm and the other 5mm in diameter. No evidence of lymph node enlargement plus no findings to indicate hashimotos thyroiditis. Am confused as my blood results showed otherwise? The tonic includes all natural ingredients of course being St Mary's Thistle, Echnasea, Lurore, Korean Ginseng, St John's Wort. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on these results before I take the next step. Well, my tonic is nearly finished and I'd rather not spend the money (which I really don't have) on this if I'm going to need to get a second opinion via a MD. I have mentioned before that I have pernicoius aneamia and I had a total hysterectomy 18 months ago, whether this is all relevant or not I don't know. I read from one of you that pernicious anaemia can go hand in hand? Also, is it true that thyroid issues cause your cholesterol level to rise as mine has suddenly? You guys are a Godsend, many thanks.

 
Old 11-28-2007, 10:03 AM   #6
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do? Reply to GCC, Mkgbrook & Midwest1

The ultrasound wouldn't necessarily indicate Hashi's, but your antibody count is proof enough. The only definitive test to prove Hashi's is fine needle biopsy, which would show microscopic changes to the cells damaged by the antibodies. But 99&#37; of doctors would never order FNA solely to look for Hashi's. It's safe to say you have it, based only on the high AB count.

There doesn't appear to me to be much in the tonic that would help a failing thyroid. Most such "thyroid" tonics contain kelp or other high-iodine ingredient (which you haven't mentioned), which might help a "weak" but otherwise healthy thyroid, but not a "failing" one. Most Hashi's patients report feeling worse after trying high doses of iodine.

Yes, pernicious anemia is an autoimmune disease that often appears with another autoimmune disease (or more), including Hashi's. People with one AI disease are more prone to have another (or more).

Finally, hypothyroidism is the second leading cause of high LDL cholesterol following poor diet. Once I reached my optimal thyroid levels, my total cholesterol fell by 20 points and my LDL fell by 21 points... without making any other changes.

It appears to me that you would benefit from supplemental thyroid hormone now. Is there some reason why you haven't taken your symptoms to a medical doctor? I understand how many MDs would blow off a person with so-called "normal" labs, but thyroid treatment is so subjective that a sympathetic MD can be found if searched for hard enough.
Good luck to you!

 
Old 11-28-2007, 10:18 AM   #7
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

Mkgbrook-Hi! I was fascinated by the information that you wrote in your post regarding an 80&#37; chance that a daughter would inherit an AITD from a Hashi's parent.And that for a male offspring it is a 40% chance. I do not know if I restated correctly what you wrote but I would like to better understand this . Could you provide a little bit more information on this point? Also, is there a source where you found this information that you could indicate? I have never seen" AITD" before,am I correct in thinking that it is Autoimmune thyroid disease?

Last edited by osteoblast; 11-28-2007 at 10:20 AM.

 
Old 11-28-2007, 03:42 PM   #8
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Thumbs up Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do? Reply to GCC, Mkgbrook & Midwest1

Quote:
Originally Posted by midwest1 View Post
The ultrasound wouldn't necessarily indicate Hashi's, but your antibody count is proof enough. The only definitive test to prove Hashi's is fine needle biopsy, which would show microscopic changes to the cells damaged by the antibodies. But 99% of doctors would never order FNA solely to look for Hashi's. It's safe to say you have it, based only on the high AB count.

There doesn't appear to me to be much in the tonic that would help a failing thyroid. Most such "thyroid" tonics contain kelp or other high-iodine ingredient (which you haven't mentioned), which might help a "weak" but otherwise healthy thyroid, but not a "failing" one. Most Hashi's patients report feeling worse after trying high doses of iodine.

Yes, pernicious anemia is an autoimmune disease that often appears with another autoimmune disease (or more), including Hashi's. People with one AI disease are more prone to have another (or more).

Finally, hypothyroidism is the second leading cause of high LDL cholesterol following poor diet. Once I reached my optimal thyroid levels, my total cholesterol fell by 20 points and my LDL fell by 21 points... without making any other changes.

It appears to me that you would benefit from supplemental thyroid hormone now. Is there some reason why you haven't taken your symptoms to a medical doctor? I understand how many MDs would blow off a person with so-called "normal" labs, but thyroid treatment is so subjective that a sympathetic MD can be found if searched for hard enough.
Good luck to you!
Thanks Midwest for your input. The ingredients I listed in the tonic are it. The reason I went to see a naturopath initially was because I was on a chemical based HRT which I felt was doing nothing for me and had heard that there were some good natural products around. The big thing here in Australia is that being on HRT for 5 years plus is not a good thing and can contribute to the cause of breast cancer. This is where all of this started by doing blood tests because I was feeling very tired and sluggish. Two MDs I had seen previous to this had both said get more exercise, take this pill for the pains as they said they were just muscular and one even had diagnosed me with Dengue Fever initially to come back after a second blood test to say "it's a red herring" we don't know whats happening, your antibodies are fighting something off, just take these pills for the pain. I was frustrated. I am in the midst of moving interstate and when I get down to Melbourne will see my sister's doctor whom is treating her for Graves thyroid. This doctor seems to have her finger on the pulse so to say. Just one more question though. Are the nodules anything to be concerned about, will they need monitoring? I thank you so much for your informative replies and wish you all the best.

 
Old 11-28-2007, 06:43 PM   #9
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by osteoblast View Post
Mkgbrook-Hi! I was fascinated by the information that you wrote in your post regarding an 80&#37; chance that a daughter would inherit an AITD from a Hashi's parent.And that for a male offspring it is a 40% chance. I do not know if I restated correctly what you wrote but I would like to better understand this . Could you provide a little bit more information on this point? Also, is there a source where you found this information that you could indicate? I have never seen" AITD" before,am I correct in thinking that it is Autoimmune thyroid disease?
Yes. AITD is an abbreviation for autoimmune thyroid disease.

There are many technical references out there discussing female dominance and familial inheretance of Hashimoto's and Graves and AI's in general.

First about 75% of autoimmune diseases occur in women, most frequently during their childbearing years. This is a fact determined by statistical polling. The fact that thyroid disorder show up in 8 women to every one male indicates a female genetic statistical dominance. Also studies have shown that the AI antibodies for Hashi's and Graves can cross the placenta barrier. SO if you are pregnant and suffering from Hashi's or Graves at the time of pregnancy you can transfer the condition to your child. It is not 100% that the disease will transfer. But if you are not recieving treatment and the antibodies are high.. I personally think the chance of transfer would be higher. The 80% and forty percent are statistical approximation for genetic propagation of the disease. This has been confirmed in small familial polls.

What do the MDs say versus the scientist that are chasing the genetic markers? Well they take the statistical high road and go conservative with these common vague statements. "There is some evidence that Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis can have a hereditary link. If autoimmune diseases run in your family, you are at a higher risk of developing one yourself. Females are more prone to thyroid issues than males." Heard anything like this?

I can not 100% confirm the facts and figures acquired from aggressive searches of the medical literature, American Thyroid Association sites, National Association of Clinical Biologists sites, and more.. my family history going back four generations on supports the statistics. So I can personally believe in the latest statistical findings. I also have nurses and MDs in my family and we keep a close eye on medical issues of interest to us. For the thorough I have Hashi's.. my brother nada. My mom has Hashitoxicosis and her 4 sisters (HT, HD, HypoT, GD). Maternal Great Aunt groiter.. removed thyroid.. Her daugther the same. My mom's father.. nada. Maternal Great Grandma and her sister.. Groiters and thyroids removed. In the case of my female family members with groiter issues we do not know if they had Hashi's.. they were never tested. The country MDs only treated them when the groiters got golf ball or baseball sized.

I am working on getting my second cousin and great aunt tested for Hashi's, but they are being treated as HypoT and it would only be for the sake of information. So given the fact that every female has had issues and the males so far are running a clean bill on the thyroid health leads me to believe the 80% dominance in females.. however the male dominance of 40% I can not confirm. I know the 1:8 male:female ratio holds in thyroid disorders and having a history increases the chances.. but how much it increases those chances ??? I can not say. Straight statistics 1:8 is one-eigth or 12.5%. I do know the ratio of AI males to females 1:4 or 25%. So there is a higher percentage of males with thyroid issues having AI issues, but still the genetic female dominance of thyroid dysfunction holds. I am not sure if 40% is valid. Most of my research states female dominance and the like. I would readily believe 20-25% hereditary male AI dysfunction. 40% seems a bit high.

I do know that if anyone in your family has an issue... Be it child, mother, father, sibling, grandparent... you should at least check you TSH yearly.. and if it is a known AI.. get the antibodies checked routinely. AI's flare due to viruses, medication, radiation exposure, pregnancy.. the list goes on. One more fact for the females of child bearing years out there. 1 out of fifty pregnant women go hypothyroid during their pregnancy. But TSH testing and AI testing is not manditory.. why? Not cost efficient for the 49 non-hypoT's to be tested as well. They do recommend as of 2002 that those with a family history thyroidism be tested at the beginning and end of the pregnancy. However, this is a recommendation not an FDA mandated care requirement. Sorry had to vent a bit. My MD didn't test me even with my pregnancy issues with my son in 2002 and now my husband and I know and are considering a second child.. it is fore most on my mind to get adequate care to minimize risk to any future child we may be blessed with... and I will pray for a second boy.

SIncerely,
MG
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Last edited by mkgbrook; 11-28-2007 at 06:46 PM.

 
Old 11-28-2007, 10:05 PM   #10
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

hi just reading all this and i wanted to say thankyou aswell mk you put it better than any dr has to me bravoxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 
Old 11-29-2007, 05:40 AM   #11
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

So maybe i should ditch my Ph.D. and dual M.S. and go to medical school... Nah. I couldn't take the hours of work and crud. I would fall asleep tending patients. Well I can always work on the research side of things and share experiences here.

MG
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:07 AM   #12
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkgbrook View Post
So maybe i should ditch my Ph.D. and dual M.S. and go to medical school... Nah. I couldn't take the hours of work and crud. I would fall asleep tending patients. Well I can always work on the research side of things and share experiences here.

MG
mg i think that you are an extreemly valued memeber on this board love katxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxx

 
Old 11-29-2007, 06:32 AM   #13
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pursie View Post
mg i think that you are an extreemly valued memeber on this board love katxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxx

Ditto !! Where would we be without you!!

Shastaw

 
Old 11-29-2007, 07:24 AM   #14
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

Hi again, lonelymum. Hope you haven't become lost in all of that side conversation.

Yes, HRT has been discovered to be bad the world over. Apparently, stupid doctors are universal, too. Hypothyroid women here are misdiagnosed so often, it's scary and entirely frustrating. I fully understand why you would give up on the medical profession in favor of naturopathics. I'm just not sure that you will be fully helped by it. It's a good thing you plan to see your sister's MD. I hope he will serve you better than your other MDs!

I have not had nodules with my Hashi's, so I'm no expert there. But you have two things in your favor ~ You have more than one, so the risk of cancer is extremely low; and they're small, too small to biopsy. According to what I know... which isn't everything, remember!... They can be safely watched for growth and other changes. Worry first about finding someone to prescribe thyroid hormone for you.

Good luck, and let us know what happens!

 
Old 11-29-2007, 07:42 AM   #15
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Re: How serious is Hashimitos and what should I do?

Dito on midwest's advice. She is spot on as always. My mother had many nodes in one half of her thyroid and she had the nodular half removed when the biopsied nodes were questionable. I was cancer free, but still nodules being present can make any one worry. Thyroid sufferers are natural anxiety cases, so that doesn't help matters. An MD that is thyroid savy is what you need. Unfortunately they are few and far between. ::sigh:: Having your sister and family present can only help you they can support symptom sighting and cross confirm family history as well.

Good luck getting medication. In many Hashi's sufferers T4/T3 supplementation helps shrink thyroid growth and minimalize all those side effects.
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