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Old 08-22-2009, 01:00 PM   #1
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Question Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

Hi guys, I recently switched my thyroid replacement meds from synthetic T4 and T3 to an equivalent dose of Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone (NDTH). The reason I did so was because I had been advised NDTH might help me resolve issues I still have with muscle spasms and muscle pain, in spite of my levels being optimised for a number of years.

6 weeks after the switch I do not notice any difference in my symptoms, in fact they may be slightly worse. I am about to get more labs done. Meanwhile I am wondering if anyone else on this board has made the switch from synthetic T4/T3 to NDTH and if they felt the benefit from doing so?

The supplier of my NDTH says it contains T3, T4, plus very small amounts of
T1, T2, selenium, and a diuretic effect. They do not seem to know what role
T1 and T2 play in the endocrine system. Does anyone here know, by chance?

best,

 
Old 08-22-2009, 05:46 PM   #2
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

Many of us are using natural thyroid hormones (NTH) as well. It contains T1, T2, T3, T4, and calcitonin, which is what our own thyroids produce and is considered by many to be a healthier choice for thyroid hormone replacement than synthetic T3 and T4. The T1 may play a role in keeping thyroid function in check and benefit the heart, T2 plays a role in converting T4 to T3and calcitonin inhibits too much calcium from being released from your bones. Given how important these various things are it seems a good idea to make sure we are replacing what we aren't getting from our thyroids

If you aren't feeling better yet it could be for a couple of different reasons. One is you aren't up to a therapeutic level yet. You need to increase 1/2 grain every two weeks to the alleviation of symptoms. When you get up to about 3-4 grains raise it 1/4 grain if you are still hypo until you feel at your optimum level. Another reason is if your adrenals are not functioning well due to long-term hypo state and you need to test them for fatigue with a saliva cortisol test and treat them if they aren't up to snuff before you will be able to utilize the thyroid hormones well.

It's recommended you test your free thyroid hormone levels during the process of getting up to theraputic levels with Free T3 and Free T4 tests. My doctor tests these levels every four weeks when I'm raising and the goal is to get these levels up into the top third of their ranges. Then retest periodically after that but mainly go by alleviation of symptoms.

Last edited by hb-mod; 08-23-2009 at 01:38 PM.

 
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:52 AM   #3
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

Thank you for your helpful comments.

Maybe you are right and I haven't yet reached my optimal dose of NTH. I do not feel ready to raise yet, as I have palpitations on my current dose
(2.25 grains), which is unpleasant. Previously I was taking 40 mcg of synth T3
(plus 175 mcg T4). The T3 component in my NTH is slightly lower at
38 mcg according to the pharmacist, so I doubt I can attribute the palps to
T3............Although here's a thought :-- as you mentioned that T2 in NTH aids conversion of T4 to T3, perhaps it's the case I'm actually getting more
T3 now than I was getting before in the synth T3. Maybe it will show in the next lab result for T3......

My last salivary cortisol test 2 years ago showed my cortisol levels were over the range for 8 am and 4 pm, the 12 noon reading was a bit low within normal range, and the midnight reading was near top of normal range.
My symptoms have improved a lot since then, and it may be worth getting another test done to mark the changes. I feel much better than I did 2 yrs ago (less fatigued, sleeping better, less stressed) so I think it's likely my cortisol levels are now at normal levels, or nearly so.

I haven't looked at **** for a while, I will look again, thank you for reminding me.

Last edited by coolbunny; 08-23-2009 at 06:54 AM.

 
Old 08-23-2009, 08:44 AM   #4
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

Also have you checked your Vitamin D and B12 levels? Many of us are deficient in them and ferritin too and this can cause symptoms. The palps might be from your high cortisol levels (and, as you said, too much T3 at once). You might need to incresase more slowly (1/4 grain at a time) to get normalized. Let us know what your next Free T levels are.

 
Old 08-24-2009, 08:43 AM   #5
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

javelina - thank you for your comments.
My Vit D was tested last year and was midway in normal range. However, as I have osteopenia I have to take a daily supplement of Calc/Mag/Boron/VitD.
My ferritin was tested 2 years ago - it was above midway in normal range. B12 when tested last year showed no deficiency. I am hoping my cortisol levels are no longer as high as they were 2 years ago when I still had a lot of symptoms. But I plan to do another salivary test to check....

Will post the results of my labs in a week's time when they are through.

best,

 
Old 08-24-2009, 11:57 AM   #6
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

Your and your pharmacist's math is way off.

One grain of natural dessicated contains 9 mcgs of T3 (not 38), or 20.25 mcgs in 2.25 grains. This is about half of the 40 you used to take, so it probably isn't causing your palpatations. However, undertreatment can cause them just as easily as overtreatment or increasing the dose too fast.

The amount of T4 in 1 grain is 38 mcgs; 85.5 in 2.25 grains.

You used to take the equivalent of 335 mcgs of T4-only replacement.
You now are taking the equivalent of 166.5 mcgs. If you haven't increased within the past 6 weeks, it's probably in your interest to do it now.

My advice is to put all those other issues on the back burner until you get your thyroid dose straightened out.

 
Old 08-24-2009, 04:17 PM   #7
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

I am sorry, that was a typo, I should have put 4.25 grains (not 2.25)!!

My pharmacist and I calculated I am getting more T3 than I was on synthetic, and less T4 than when I was on synthetic. I may need to add some synth T4 to the NTH...

I think it could well be the extra T3 that is/was giving me the palps. Less of a problem today. But I felt better on synth
T4/T3, so I'll probably give it another month then decide whether to stick with NTH or not.......

 
Old 08-24-2009, 05:30 PM   #8
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

OK then, error noted. The amount of T3 in 4.25 grains is 40.5 mcgs. That's the same as you were taking, not more. I don't know why the pharm. would've said you're getting more, when clearly, you aren't. And you're only getting about 10 mcgs less T4, which could account for some difference in the way you feel, but probably doesn't.

 
Old 08-25-2009, 08:18 AM   #9
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

High cortisol can cause the aches and pains just like low thyroid.

 
Old 09-01-2009, 11:37 AM   #10
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Smile Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

Quote:
Originally Posted by midwest...........................you're only getting about 10 mcgs less T4, which [i
could[/i] account for some difference in the way you feel, but probably doesn't.

Hi, a brief update :- good news !
Discontinued NTH a week ago because of unpleasant symptoms and went back on to synthetic T4. Had run out of synthetic T3, so decided to just go with the T4 and see what happened. Within days was feeling much better. The palpitations have gone, as has the dizziness, the muscle spasms are less too.

So it looks like the T3 in NTH was to blame. Now I may no longer need a T3 replacement anyway as it appears at last I am converting T4 to T3 efficiently, after 5 yrs of not doing so.

I plan to continue on T4 for the present and see how I go.

 
Old 09-01-2009, 12:06 PM   #11
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

T3 isn't for everyone, that's for sure.

You're actually fortunate you might be able to use straight T4 successfully, given the problems on the horizon of getting adequate supplies of dessicated hormone from the manufacturers.

Good luck!

 
Old 09-15-2009, 06:54 AM   #12
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

As it turns out I can't manage on T4 alone as I had hoped I might. Have now gone back to taking synthetic T3 as well. However, am taking half the T3 I was taking before, so that has to be an indication of some improvement.

Anyway, end result is my thyroid levels are now optimised again, just as they had been for several years before I got the not-so clever idea of switching to NDT and upsetting the apple cart. Pheww, won't try that again!

Last edited by coolbunny; 09-15-2009 at 07:34 AM.

 
Old 11-03-2009, 03:05 PM   #13
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolbunny View Post
Hi guys, I recently switched my thyroid replacement meds from synthetic T4 and T3 to an equivalent dose of Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone (NDTH). The reason I did so was because I had been advised NDTH might help me resolve issues I still have with muscle spasms and muscle pain, in spite of my levels being optimised for a number of years.

6 weeks after the switch I do not notice any difference in my symptoms, in fact they may be slightly worse. I am about to get more labs done. Meanwhile I am wondering if anyone else on this board has made the switch from synthetic T4/T3 to NDTH and if they felt the benefit from doing so?

The supplier of my NDTH says it contains T3, T4, plus very small amounts of
T1, T2, selenium, and a diuretic effect. They do not seem to know what role
T1 and T2 play in the endocrine system. Does anyone here know, by chance?

best,
Hey, I haven't been on this board in years but was doing a search for t3 and calf cramps because I personally know there's a relationship and whadya know, I'm back.

Anywho, there's now at least 2 people in the world who have muscle spasms related to t3. Funny thing is, for me--and apparently for you too--it's the t3 that causes the spasms--not the lack thereof. I used to take 3 grains a day of NDTH--that's 27mcgs of t3, then severe calf cramps. Cut down to 2 grains a day and the calf cramps went away for a year then came back. Cut down to 1 grain a day and again, they went away for a year and now came back. Now, I'm down to 1/4 grain a day or only about 2mcgs of t3 a day. When I take just 1/2 grain a day, the cramps come back. Debilitating muscle cramps.

Too bad too as the t3 makes me feel good--but can't play tennis with muscle spasms so I'm almost all synthetic t4 now.
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:03 AM   #14
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

Another cause of calf cramps is low magnesium, calcium, and potassium levels. Have you tried supplimenting these?

Magnesium is often very low with hypothyroid people (as are vitamin D, B12, and ferritin). You should take it to bowel tolerance.

 
Old 11-04-2009, 12:02 PM   #15
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Re: Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone

Quote:
Originally Posted by javelina View Post
Another cause of calf cramps is low magnesium, calcium, and potassium levels. Have you tried supplimenting these?

Magnesium is often very low with hypothyroid people (as are vitamin D, B12, and ferritin). You should take it to bowel tolerance.
------------------------------

Unless you're into about your 11th of hard labor in a 110 degree steel mill or 21st mile of a hot and sunny marathon and you forgot to take fluids all day, cramps have nothing to do with that sodium potassium magnesium level stuff.

It's just urban legend and is like saying that car accidents can cause death so if you find a guy dead on his bathroom floor check and see if he got in a car accident.
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