I took my Son to the ER on friday night. He came down with a virus a few days before, and well, he's got asthma, and he was wheezing. The doctor examined him, gave him antibiotics and prednisone. Now, we've seen this doctor in the ER, a few times in the past. (when we had taken him to the ER for head pain and ear trouble, not knowing that it was a tmj disorder that he was suffering from) Anyway, he recognized us and asked if we ever did figure out what was causing those particular problems. I told him what his diagnosis was, and (in front of my Son, like he wasn't even there) shook his head and said, "that's terrible, most people suffer their whole lives from that, and to think he's only a child." my Son's eyes got huge, looking at me. When we got to the car, he was nearly in tears. Now, I reassure him on a daily basis that he will be painfree again, and that Mom will eventually get him the "right" help, and this doctor nearly destroyed that. How can a doctor be so ignorant in front of a child? Thanks for listening, it just ticked me off, and I needed to get it out.
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 10-29-2003).]
Micaiah says that you should write a letter to the hospital or to that doctor's surperior. Stating your case and how this one doctor ALMOST destroyed the self esteem in a 14 year old boy. And ask them why if he knew soooooooooooooooooooooooooo much about it to know that people suffer their whole lives, why could he not diagnose it or even point you in the right direction?????
That makes me so mad that he did that to you guys. You have to wonder what they actually got their phd in- idiotocy?
I am so sorry that stupid Dr. did that to your son. Okay, for each negative statement or comment, as I understand it takes 100 positives to negate the negative. I would also get the name of the Dr and file a formal complaint with the hospital as well as the medical board. This Dr needs to go back "bed side manners 101".
Give your son a big hug and keep letting him know, this will not be a lifetime of hell. Geez
Have a nice day
It was a little silly of him to say that.
But I think talk of a formal complaint is a a bit much too. It was a passing - and not very helpful - remark.
The man meant well and was trying to sympathise. He was clumsy but I find the virulent anti doctor tone in these pages a bit galling sometimes.
Everyone has huge sympathy for this young man but at the end of the day it is doctors we turn to for help and it will be a doctor, hopefully, who will help him in the end. He may well have to endure this problem for a while to come and it might actually help him to develop a sense of "I'll show them".
We have all had experiences with arrogant doctors, doctors who get it wrong etc. But they do not know everything and whilst so many people recount their "unsatisfactory" experiences on this board, few actually come on to praise those who have helped. Indeed, the readership is rather self selecting in that most on here are STILL suffering and by default have not had much success with doctors. But we expect so much of them still? Justa curious dichotomy that interests me.
How can such stupid doctors be trusted with other patient lives? I am not surprised anymore at how many bad, egotistical and heartless doctors are out there, and who easily get away with injuring patients. I would have scolded him in front of everybody. Whether he knows much about TMJ or not is beside the point. He should not say those insensitive things in front of a kid who is suffering!
[This message has been edited by Al4 (edited 05-18-2003).]
I had the same problem.With more knowledge I now don't feel so bad.My doc was worse!He said to me (before someone else diagnosed me with TMJ)"No one will ever find out what's wrong with you.My wife has lived with pain for years,and they don't know what it is."He went on to say,"No other Doctor will tell you this,but straight out,I would stop trying and waisting time and your money."That is what he told me!!!!!Imagine how I felt leaving there.That was when I had no idea what was going on with me.I think he was sick of seeing me.I went about 5 times in 3 weeks.He said that stuff to me on the last appointment,because I never went back!
Your son should know that a lot of Docs out there are not knowledgable about TMJ yet.I've found that out!You just have to find the right one.Turns out the Doc I saw was wrong!They DID find out what's wrong,and we are working on it.I am improving in some areas.Sometimes Doctors are wrong.My uncle received a faulty Polio vaccine which gave him Polio.He was suppose to live until age 8.He lived until 48!You see 5 different Doctors,you might get 5 totally different opinions.You can tell if you are comfortable with a Doc.Your son will not be in pain forever.I hope he knows this.I have heard many success stories!
[This message has been edited by uscoastiewife (edited 05-18-2003).]
Hi Cheryl, Tell Mike that the dentist I see is a specialist in TMJD and is away every month at conferences and seminars learning everything he can about this disorder. Now, this Dr. with all the knowledge of it has told me that it does get better and in many instances it goes away for the person with the right treatment. The Dr. in the ER probably only knows what he has heard or read about the matter and has no further knowledge than that. And the fact that is works in the ER probably means he only sees patient's for it that are in extreme pain at the time. He would never see a success case for treatment in the ER. Maybe that will make Mike feel some better. It was probably just the Dr's total lack of knowledge on the subject. And he probably felt he was being sympathetic and never even thought about what saying that would do to a kid.
Hope Mike is feeling better from his virus. Emily was sick too and I had her at the Dr's on Friday. Her's was just a sinus infection this time though. I was glad as she had her big spring concert on Friday night and was able to go and be in it. She was so cute up there singing.
How are you doing? Hanging in there? I am picking up my splint tomorrow morning and cannot wait. This is going to help me, I just know it!!! Take care and talk to you soon, Michelle
Someone (sorry, can't remember who) on this board regularly posts at the end of their message:
'Some doctors are only alive because it's illegal to kill them'
Think that sums it up nicely.
I was doing research today where it said that tmj falls between two stools, it is neither the terrain of dentists or doctors and MOST IMPORTANTLY for your son, neither are required to study it in much detail so often know very little about it. This doctor may be very good at the field he is in, but tmjd certainly falls outside of it. His information is NOT reliable.
Well by now you clearly know what I think of most doctors. The remark this man made to you son was not only bad for your son but I believe it would be bad for anyone to hear. Nobody wants some "doctor" telling them that they have no chance of ever getting well. That is a bad idea to tell an adult or a child. After all we all need hope to keep us going. And MichaelV, maybe alot of us do have a virulent distrust of doctors and all of us have a good reason for that distrust. Doctors think of themselves as "Gods" and praise themselves more than I could ever praise them. So, have you had success with TMJ treatment? If so, please do tell us about it.
Wow, I didn't think that this would get this many replies. Thanks to all for replying.
Heather-making a complaint with the hospital would be a waste of time. I'd rather spend my time finding him some help and doing research. It was a good idea, though. It would be fruitless, do you think that they really care? Let me tell you, when he was 4, he was hospitalized for some type of virus that we couldn't get a handle on. 104 temp., vomiting, etc... He was in the hospital for about 2 weeks. After being there for about a week, they brought in a kid (around the same age, to share the room) must've been around 2 in the morning. The parents started talking to me and my husband, swapping what's wrong with each of our kids, and here their kid had bacterial meningitis! (extremely contagious, since my kid was already so ill, it probably would've killed him) I got the nurses in there immediately to take us to another room. The staff said that it was an error. Some error!! I spent the next few weeks writing to different "higher ups" at the hospital, and in the end, I was told-sorry, it was a mistake, your son's okay, so what's the problem? I doubt making a complaint about this would be of any use, if making a complaint about that was a waste.
You're right that it takes 100 positives to negate a negative. Now, instead of him asking me if he's going to get better 100 times a day, it seems like 1000. I'll push him into getting a positive attitude about this yet!
Al4 and Tiffany,
I agree with you both 100%, I don't need to say anymore!
I like your quote-how true!!
I'm glad to hear that you're seeing some improvement. I keep telling him the same as you said, the right doctor will help, and we'll find him. The sad thing is, if a doctor tells us as adults, that we won't get better, sure it bothers us, but we move on, we know better. Being young and hearing that, especially when he trusts these doctors, is devastating. We'll eventually find the right guy.
I told him what you said, and he seemed a little better. No one's going to walk into the ER saying they're cured or better from their tmj problems! Besides, this isn't their specialty. Let me know tomorrow, when you get back from the doctor how it went. It made me smile to see your optimism, it WILL work!
It almost sounds as if it's in your best financial interests to protect doctors. I feel anyone, no matter what field, should be held accountable for their wrong-doings, mistakes, or any other action that harms a person, be it physically or mentally. If someone is not trained to do a job, they should not make themself believed to be capable by way of deception. They should not make false promises that they never plan to follow through on. I feel that is where much of the skeptisism of doctors stems from. If you were to take you car into a auto shop to be repaired, and the repair was performed incorrectly by an unqualified technician, causing a loved one to be involved in a accident that destroyed their life, or inflicted enough pain for that loved one to wish that they did not have to exist in this world anymore... would you have any bitterness toward the owner of the auto shop? Following your past advice, would you say it was ok for him to allow an unqualified technician to perform the job, and just say oops? You seem to have this attitude for doctors that removes all responsibility for their level of service. If we need to break it down to simple provider/consumer terms, they are being paid to offer a service as they advertise. But as we all know, in the medical field, there is no such thing as a money-back-guarentee... So, that equates to me as "buyer be warned". So, with that said... the consumer/patient must do their own research to find out what has worked for others. Yet, how often have you gone into a doctor's office and asked questions on different types of treatments... I have even used their terminology to ease this process (speaking their linqo) and I get the attitude of... "Well, if you know so much and don't want to follow my advice, maybe you should see someone else." Yet if we do follow their advise and are crippled by their bad judgement or lack of experience, we should show them sympathy and compassion? Where is their compassion? I really have a hard time with that logic. With that said, not all doctors fall into this category. There are many great doctors out there... it's just the ones like I have mentioned that seem to 'float' and they are the doctor's that are discussed on here in detail.
I'm very sorry that you find people's misfortunes as a result of mis-treatment, mis-diagnosis or just carelessness, as galling. I know you mean well by your posts, and I appreciate the difference in point-of-view you offer, it just differs from mine. I hope your problems are getting better!
I think this board offers a great place for people to vent some of this frustration and receive advice from others that have been through this merry-go-round. I have received such great advice and support from many of the people on this board, and I know that eventually it will help my son to be a kid once again.
I hope that everyone's tomorrow is just a little bit better with less pain.
[This message has been edited by CherylLynn24 (edited 10-29-2003).]
What has happened to Mike is an all to often occurence. I do understand your feelings on trying to complain regarding inappropriate behaviour. I sense from your posts that you are too tired to expend energy fighting what seems to be, a hopeless cause.
I had an "Experience" with an ER visit in Jan.
I went in late one evening barely able to breathe and had chest tightness. I knew it was some type of bronchitis and I needed help. The shortness of breath had been going on several days. The Doctor I saw on admission did exactly what he should have. Chest X-ray, blood work, EKG, listened to my chest,etc.(I was wheezing) All the test came back OK, so he said I was having some kind of bronchial-spasms and gave me a breathing treatment and told me if it helped, he would give me another one in about an hour. It helped. I immediately started breathing better and the tightness seemed to ease up. About an hour later, I was waiting for the Pulmonary Tech to come back for the 2nd treatment.
(During this whole 2 hour stay, my BP was 110/60, pulse 70, and my EKG was perfect. This is all normal for me.)
At this point, a new Doctor appeared at the door,he did not come in the room, did not ask me if the breathing treatment had helped or anything else on the lines of the first Doctor's diagnosis.
He introduced himself, told me the shift had changed, and that due to my history, I was having a "Little Anxiety" and he would give me a script for Ativan.
I told him I was not anxious or nervous and I did not need Ativan. I told him the 1st Doctor had diagnosed bronchitis and I had thought I would be given something for "Bronchitis". He rolled his eyes and walked away. The Nurse Tech (a male) who had been monitering my vitals and had been in the room the majority of the time turned "Bright Red" and started taking off the monitors and removing the Pulmonary Meds and equipment that had been left for my second treatment. I asked him what was going on. I asked him with my vitals being totally normal & stable and the bronchitis being very apparent(Wheezing), did it look like to him that I was having an "Anxiety Attack". He said "No ma'am, but we have to follow the Doctors orders." I ask him, what history was this Dr. referring too. He said he didn't know.
I asked him if a 50 year old man had come into the ER with shortness of breath & chest tightness, would he be sent away with a bottle of nerve pills. He said "No ma'am". He whispered, see your PCP asap, you have bronchitis. I was dismissed with a diagnosis of Anxiety and a script of Ativan.
I did see my PCP and was treated for a lingering, allergy related bronchitis for the next couple of months. My PCP had received the ER report, I told him the story and he could not believe the behaviour of this Dr. It was there in black & white. Treatment for Bronchitis with wheezing(1st Dr.) turned into an Anxiety Attack (2nd Dr.) His staff got a good laugh. They told me from my "Vitals", I had one of the most controlled "Anxiety Attacks" they had ever seen. (Note: Had I taken the Ativan on top of the other meds I was on, I might not be here to type this post. That Dr. did not even look at my medical history)
I know this is long, but this travesty is on-going.
AND I DO WRITE LETTERS. I wrote a 3 page letter, 2 days after this "mess" and sent it to the ER Dept. Director, the Hospital ADM., and the owners of this system of Hospitals.
I got a call immediately from the ER Director, with profuse apologies on behalf of the DR., the ER, and the Hospital Adm. I was told that in changing shifts, my records had been confused with someone else's. I ask her why the Doctor did not recheck when I expressed my confusion and why he just left my doorway with a sarcastic look. She had no answer.
She wanted to know what "they could do to remedy this situation." I told her I wanted my records corrected.
She said that was against the law, but since there had been a "Problem" and my treatment had been inappropriate due to an error, my Insurance Company nor I, would be charged. I told her this really did not help, that Doctors like him was the reason there is an "Epidemic" of negligent treatment, especially the ever increasing incidence of women dying of heart related problems. We are not treated the same way as men. Men are taken seriously with shortness of breath & chest tightness. Women get sent home with nerve pills. She agreed and said they were making many changes in this area. (Right!!!!)
I thought it was over, I felt better by writing the letter and getting this fiasco off my chest.
I never recieved a bill or summary from my Health Carrier, so I thought all was well.
This past Fri., 4 months after this incident, I recieved a Summary of Payment from my "Mental Health Carrier." They had been billed & paid 974$ for this visit. I called and ask what this was for. I was told that my diagnosis for the ER Visit was "MENTAL HEALTH DISORDER".
I guess most people would let this go, this money did not come out of my pocket. "BUT, THIS IS NOT RIGHT" and in the long run, we all pay. This is the reason healthcare is astronomical and continues to climb.
This particular incident could be considered fraudulent billing. I was physically ill and have proof.
Needless to say, I will be in contact with the person who apologized for this mess and find out "WHY" my MH Ins. was billed. I do not intend to sue these people, but I did tell my MH Carrier the story, so I don't know what they might do.
This kind of incompetence goes on all the time. From Doctors, records departments, billing, etc.
Sorry to get on my soapbox, but I have always been a letter writer & complainer when I see an injustice. I've had it happen too many times. I have seen some good results in the past, just from letters. I expect I will get this matter straightened out. I can be persistant. If they give me a problem, I want to see them prove I have a Mental Health Disorder, to justify their billing. They can't. I can prove I have been a victim, again, of " The Stupid Doctors Disease".
I see you have gotten many replies, mostly people who have experienced the same type of behaviour by Arrogant Medical Professionals, who would fare better by digging ditches than treating human beings with health problems.
We've had this debate before. There are differences of opinons, regarding Doctors and our failing HealthCare System. There is one, when you have time to read, back in Jan., where several members voiced their opinions. The Thread is titled "Doctors..A Little Harsh on Them"
And don't worry, those of us who do not have a sick child to take of, will continue to write letters and wage complaints againt the "Almighty American Medical Machine".
I hope you have been able to convey to Mike, without damaging his trust in "Good Doctors", that there are some "Bad Ones" and he will "NOT" have to live with TMJD his whole life. Please tell him, I am getting better daily, because I found a "Good Doctor".
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 05-19-2003).]
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 05-19-2003).]
that is horrible what he said!! He is ignorant to tmj and I wouldn't even worry about it. Yes, it is a disorder that we have to manage our whole lives, but it can be controlled with the proper treatment.
Wow Cymy Sue, you also had an ordeal!!!!!!
It is so hard to see what making a mistake in the doctor field can cost the patient. There are good doctors but I don't think this one falls under that category. Why is it that when everything else fails they diagnose you with anxiety or depression? I do suffer a lot from these disorders also but it makes everything so much harder when people are diagnosed with things that don't even relate to them.
Since I worked at an elementary school I was always getting sick, I would go to the same doctor's office to get treated. Most of teh doctor's knew where I worked and understood, but the other doctor's loved to flip through ALL of the pages in my file.
This one particular doctor loves to diagnose me with asthma. I have never had asthma and I still don't. Micaiah's mom is a nurse and has even checked me out. This one doctor perscribed asthma medicine that I did not take. I know that I do have allergies, anxiety, and tmj.
I would agree with everything you said about incompetent practitioners in whatever field!
I never said otherwise of course - except that I thought a silly remark, as upsetting as it was, but nevertheless well meaning, should not be something to formally complain about. This is not, in the strictest sense of the word about mistreatment, mis-diagnosis, malpractice etc. No doctors should be exonerated from that. And my own mother suffered horribly from a misdiagnosis in an Accident And Emergency department. Yet despite this, I felt the doctor, regardless of his error, was not deserving of villification. We complained and were compensated - such was the gravity of his error, but I do not believe in being as virulently aggressive towards mistake-makers as some.
Funnily enough, your original post was merely a "venting" of your feelings towards the silliness of this doctor's remark. It was those who recommended going after him formally that I took issue with.
I have followed your story keenly and from time to time have involved myself in it. I have nothing but sympathy for you and your son.
The general debate about doctors, many of whom are not always helpful, has been had before. I do think that certain experiences have given some a "tar them all with the same brush" approach which I just do not think helps anyone.
I have no financial interest in "defending" doctors. I work in the arts. I have reported my own encounters with them too. I am not sure it does you any credit to diminish my view or what I say with such a remark. But I haven't taken any real offence. It was also a terrible misrepresentation to say I found people's misfortune galling. This is clearly NOT what I said.
Ironically, I have only really had any effective treatment from someone who is NOT a doctor - yet most people will hopefully be treated successfully one day and that treatment is still likely to come from a doctor.
[This message has been edited by MichaelV (edited 05-19-2003).]
Just got on and read what happened to you guys. Was this at Lakewood? I wouldn't be surprised if it was. Please tell Mike that there are two types of hospitals, one where the doctors are well versed in the proper things to say, etiquette etc...and the other, well, the doctors moonlight and fill in and are adequate doctors, but they don't necessarily have the 'touch' that would enable them to be classified as 'good' doctors. It's that difference that separates Lakewood from other facilities. You'll have stupid people who don't think before they speak everywhere you go. You just hope that they don't exist in the ER....they do.
My brother is an ER doc and I told him what was said to you...he was appalled and said that it wasn't true whatsoever and it sounded like the doctor was making a lame attempt to be sympathetic. Just ignore his ignorance and remember, he is NOT an TMJ specialist, nor does he have a true grasp of what Mike is going through.
My headaches are under control, but not because of the ER docs there. My PT helped more than the docs did because they understand what the symptoms and side effects of TMJ are! My brother would be the first person to tell you he isn't an expert in the field and instead of making a blanket statement like the doc from the ER, he would say that you should go see a specialist. He would treat Mike's pain and that would be the end of it...that's what should have happened for you guys.
I'm sorry you went through such an awful experience...tomorrow is another day Scarlett...hopefully Mike will understand that just because someone has Dr. in front of their name, doesn't make them a smart person!
Just wanted to let you know that I will respond to all of you tomorrow. This virus has really knocked me down, why is it that kids never 'seem' this ill?! (they still run around, if I did that right now, I'd probably fall over!)
I hope you get to feeling better soon. I always wonder about that too. Kids get the flu and are still able to run around, yell and function. We get the flu and it knocks us on our butts. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/yawn.gif Feel better soon.
I'm so sorry to hear you have one of "The Bugs".
Also, I didn't intend to interject such a long post regarding my recent experience with "Total Incompentence" from beginning to end from a simple ER visit. I was just so angry when I got the Bill Summary from my MH Carrier and you had made this post...... This mess was settled yesterday. The ER Director apologized profusely again, said the billing dept. had made the error and all would be corrected. I asked for this in writing, this time, and she agreed. End of story, I hope.
As far as Mike's experience, this statement may have been made out of total stupidity regarding TMJD, by this Doctor, but it was damaging to Mike and inexcusable. I do not understand people getting into the Medical Profession, taking all the curriculum required, (of which I believe a certain amount of pyschology is required) and coming out of all of this training without a clue of what is appropriate to say to patients. What happens to these people? Do they not realize that by becoming Physicians, they will be treating sick people? People who need understanding and compassion, along with Medical Treatment.
I do not include all Doctors in this statement, there are some very wonderful Physicians, who understand the Human Mind, and know everything they say makes an impression on us. There are those, however, who should not be allowed Human Contact.
I do hope Mike is feeling better about this incident.
When I was young, we had mostly "Dr. Welby's". Sadly, that is not the case any longer.
Well Sue I think you are right to question why some doctors have not developed the right "bedside manner".
There are a number of reasons for it.
In this case, I think he meant well and was sympathising but was exceedingly clumsy.
Others do see medicine as a good and lucrative career and fail to develop the proper understanding of the pastoral care needed. My brother in law, when starting out as a GP was very cynical and dismissive of his patients but as he has gotten older he has changed a lot.
Some of course are true vocational doctors who have a genuinely caring attitude.
I think doctors feel a frustration - something I have heard many express to me - that people come to them looking for answers and sometimes there are no easy or immediate solutions. It frustrates them that they cannot help and it frustrates them that people get angry with them for being unable to do so. SOmetimes they are under so much pressure to "do something" that they try things, usually in the interests of patients - and when that does not work or has other undesirable effects, they are then accused of being arrogant, using people as guinea pigs etc etc etc. They cannot always win.