Just got home, he was very nice , did a thurough exam and found the tight muscles on the right jaw and neck. He thought the dentures were all wrong, too big and wide, and should not be biting on the back. He thought the teeth were too big in my previous dentures too.
He said tens may be contraindicated with MS, as I told him it made me worst.
He was amazed at my gums and the bone in my mouth, he said almost abnormal and hes going to investigate that, as he has never seen such big gums even in people with teeth, and since I've been wearing dentures for 10 years now, he finds it strange.
He wants me to leave the dentures out as much as possible and take the valium at night and no dentures at night and call him on Mon to let him know if my muscles are better.
he'd like me to see a chiro, he said my body is all wound up. I told him I see an osteopath and he said apparently that hasn't been working.
Anyway I found him extremely nice and knowledgable. he spent at least an hour with me at no charge, so that was good.
he isn't sure he can help me till he figures out what is wrong and going on, he said something is not right.
he may reline my old dentures to at least get me comfortable and but until my muscles relax he won't know where my bite is and making a bite now would lock me up.
OH very important, the girl said they never ever use a splint with a denture patient- which was good news to me!!
Office was clean, very easy drive, and a lab , but for the finish product they send it out, after they set everything.
So thats my report. When I walked in the office, I said to myself, oh I hate to go through another dental interview and almost left, but it was alot better than I though, and he was gentle.
Ok - so far so good - he doesn't sound like he tried to give you the hard and fast sell like "only I can fix this" routine. I like the idea of not wearing your dentures b/c wearing something that is perpetuating if not contributing to your problem is not the answer - and going "au natural" although yes, not pleasant, has its benefits - I think just doing that helped me a great deal as it allowed my jaw to go where it wanted - and actually allowed me to use it in chewing - which encourages the muscles to start moving like they used to.
Although I found relief in not having anyhting in my mouth - to be honest the first few weeks if not months were hard b/c I started to get even more spasms as my body "unwound" - either on its own accord or with assistance from the chiro. So I am not sure you will see that much improvement in only a few days - but if you have throbbing pain from the dentures themselves, certainly that will ease up.
See - I have never been to an osteopath so I am not familiar with their training or treatment - so I can't really say whether an ostoe is better than a chiro - or vice versa - plus a lot can depend on the practioner as well - I know what its like though to like and trust the person performing the treatment - as I really liked my first chiro - more than liked, if you get my drift LOL - but I wasn't getting much better and knew I needed to try other things if I ever wanted to pursue that part of my life again, so I moved on - its shouldn't be about staying with a therapist b/c they are gentle or nice, etc - it should be about whether they are correcting the problem or not.
Well it sounds like a good start - to maybe a beautiful and productive relationship, I hope. The fact that he did not charge you for the hour says quite a lot too. And the fact that he was gentle with you - I have had a few exam me like they were rummaging through a garbage can.
I kept thinking about you today - her appt is in 15 mins, Ok she must be in the chair by now, ok its 20 mins past - he must be examing her by now, etc. - I wish I could have been a fly on the wall in that office.
I am so glad it went better than you expected - let me know how you are feeling w/o the dentures or if you notice any change in your symptoms.
Last edited by Thelma-Louise; 01-08-2009 at 06:01 PM.
LTC, I am glad that the visit went so well. The guy seems to be really willing to adjust for the patient and not do their "processing line" routine. I like how TL said about rummaging the garbage can. I had one exam in an office advertising their "gentle touch"; the dentist was a lady and I thought she would just tear my mouth and crash all the teeth...
TL is very wise about suggesting not to trust just the niceness. I fell for this few times with good "bruises". It is also very good that the new dentist wants to make you comfy first of all giving your jaw total freedom (from the bite) and rest. When will you see the dentist again? Will you be seeing his chiro or continue with your osteo? It would be great if this nearby dentist will take a good care of you!
You say that your body is shifted to one side now. I had this for about 16 years unknowingly but when I learned how to relax my body it straightened out in 2-3 days (if not faster). Of course, it does not stay there but I know the feeling. Just really try to relax all your muscles during your resting phase.
Have you ever slept w/o the dentures? Doesn't your mouth close all the way then? I have troubles sleeping w/o at least some piece in my mouth.
TL, thanks for the guard. I made it fit and it's better than I thought. The problem is that I can't close the lips so I am drooling and feel the cheeks stretched sideways too much. I tried to cut on the sides, but am afraid to cut too much. How thick should it be on the side? What was your experience? How should it feel? Are you still wearing it at night, if not - what?
LTC, you asked about the sleep apnea. I don't have the tongue problem at night but I think my airways are indeed small. This is the reason my jaw doesn't stay in the CR position (to where the dentists like to "push it") but has to move slightly forward to allow me to breathe and even to eat, or else all the food goes to the back before I chew it and I choke easily.
TL, me too I had the bones shifting sometimes besides the tingling and numbness in the hands and feet. Now I check my spine by hanging on the bar, as I mentioned to you. It's easy to feel then what parts are out of alignment, but it's not easy to change them!
I agree that a general dentist will frick out from seeing muscle spasms. I watched their jaw dropping too. BUT I also watched the same reaction of a NM dentist when he made some kind of non-removable horseshoes on top of my teeth and my face suddenly started moving and one side ended up being much further to the back and much narrower than the other. He started saying smth as it was happening and then stopped in the middle of the phrase and his jaw dropped instead. From watching him I realized that I better ask him to remove what he made as I didn't want to have any emergencies at night. He did it w/o a word and even didn't charge me the rest of the fee! It looked like he never saw anything like that.
TL, you said that you went to the TMJ clinic in NYC school. Was it in NYU? Was it helpful at all? I tried going there before the tmj started just to fix my occlusion. It looked like after several months of waiting they would have sent me to their prosthodontist but then the students will do the work anyway. So I thought I'd better just go to a specialist on my own.
You ask what I mean by the "plane of occlusion" not being a plane. If you check the pics of it, you will see that it is a concave down surface (for the lower teeth), i.e. like an bowl, or a "trampoline". It can be steeper or flatter. Basically it repeats the shape of the jaw if looking at the face from profile. This also means that the lower back teeth are somewhat higher than the premolars and the fronts are again higher.
On the upper teeth it's reverse: the very backs are shorter than in the middle. The upper fronts repeat the shape of your lips when you smile a little bit.
I keep on thinking how you could unwind your body and relax the muscle spasms. So far I only learned a certain way which often works for me but requires a lot of time. At least I can make a BR at that state but w/o the proper teeth it all goes away quickly.
Stillhope you said "it is a concave down surface (for the lower teeth), i.e. like an bowl, or a "trampoline". that is pretty much what my first partial looked like, but not partial since, since the first pair they have been straight. And yes my top teeth were made the way you described, those were my first dentures and even sinse then they have mostly been flat plane ones. Gee I wonder if thats my problem.
I turned into a nut case in his office if you no what I mean, blurting things out, and not being composed as I wanted to be. You know how nervous you get when you in there and they are looking at you and that.
Osteo's, move your body parts to straighten the spine, I'm afraid of chiros as I had that one that when I left my hips were torque and had coccyx pain and she was just awful.
I don't know what to do, he said if he isn't able to help me he'll let me know, and he isn't sure of what my problem is except my tight muscles on the right side. He did say my head was tilted but just slightly.
I was wondering if maybe botox in the right scm would help.
I have been sleeping without the lower partial, so I slept without both last night, no difference, yes my mouth closed all the way I think.
Yes TL- when I pulled out my few sets of dentures, the girl said how do you keep them straight? Thanks for thinking of me yesterday. I do the same when you go to your dentist and then can't wait to hear what happened.
There was not talk about money yesterday, not even what his dentures cost, or even talk like implants or that like some say maybe a implant lower denture would be better.
I may make a consult with the chiro today, but just to talk to him.
Its so hard to know what to do, but now I need to find a ride next week to my dentist and my husband is so busy I hate to ask, it would be nice to have one in town, that is a big deal to me, and really my dentist hasn't helped really at all, except I'm worst once again.
TL- I read that other post about fibro and you mentioned RA- my test just came back neg, maybe have your doc next time run a test on you. I got a letter yesterday I need to go and get more blood work, I have leukocytosis and macrocytosis- I'm sure its the stress of this all. My doctor always runs so much blood work and I try to tell him its muscles and body sturcture causing my problems, at least hes errors on the side of caution.
I called the chiro office. They have low level laser, does your chiro have that TL. Also does your chiro crack your neck?? I really really hate the thought of someone cracking my neck.
Stillhope - I tried the OTC mouthguard when I still had my teeth and the pain was still primarily located on the anterior bridges and only slight adjustments had been done to back teeth - but I found I needed more bulk toward the cheek on one side only, my right. The bulk on the one side made my muscles on that side stretch a bit more but I found this gave me the control I needed to maintain a specific lower jaw position. My current tmj dentist calls this a "reference" and says the bulk or width of teeth give our muscles the point of contact and resistance they need to work proeprly, but too much and you can pull the jaw one way or another - too little and you create hyper mobility. So you may have to go through some trial and error to determine what feels best on each side. I think I went through 3 guards in 4 months trying to get it just right but once my teeth were prepped for the crowns - I took such a drastic turn for the worse I never tried them again.
I went to NYU's Dental school as one dr I consulted with was the chairperson there and his private practice fee to fix my teeth was $60K - utterly rediculous - but he said if I went to the school he would monitor my "case". Well the tmj clinic had a 3 mos waiting period even though I came with a referral from the chair of the dept but they were able to get me into to their pain mgmt clinic that day - but I noticed each time I went I had someone new and spent 20-30 mins revieiwing my history again - and when it hurts to talk - well I just couldn't do it - after 4 mos I just went back to my PCP and told him - here prescribe these drugs and I didn't make the appt with the tmj clinic
Interesting about the plane - on my lower left side my last back tooth feels lower than the first lower premolar - so the slope on that side feels like it goes from higher (premolar) to lower (last molar) - and on the right side I am reversed - my premolar feels lower and the last molar on that side is higher - so I go from low in the front to higher in the back - this is what gives me the "bike pedals in the mouth" sensation. The corerct slope you describe though is what I used to feel - that the upper palate pointed downward a bit. But my 2nd tmj dr made my lower last molars like ski lifts - and that sent me into a tizzy for months - does each tooth then have a slope or plane to them as well?
I have lost a lot of my upper body strength - I guess b/c my back teeth don't meet or maybe an issue with my neck - so I am not sure I could hold onto a bar and hang (I have one in my boiler room) - I can't even hold my blow dryer up that high.
LTC - maybe this new dentist can refer you to a chiro that he knows or has worked with - that is how I I got 2 of the chiros I went to - at least then you know the chiro is "OK". No - i have never had a chiro "crack" me - its one of the reasons I wouldn't go in the begining - but by BIL literally dragged me to the first guy and he used an activator. The 2nd guy was the NUCCA - he just pushed the left side of jaw with the side of his hand. And now my current chiro - he uses his thumbs to push the bone - and if I feel it is too forceful he uses the palm of his hands - more like someone kneeding your muscle to get it to relax. Plus this guy makes me do certain movements with my arms - like raise it and put my hand behind my back or neck while he pushes on the sternum or on the top of my head, etc. Sometimes though I wonder if a good crack isn't what I really need - just get it over with, you know? I have never heard of a low level laser in chiro treatment - I wonder what that does. Find out more about his actual treatment - my NUCCA chiro spent an hour with me explaining what he would do before I would let him touch me - and after the adjustment I said to myself "that's it? that's what all the fuss was about?" - LOL
I had the RA test done a few times in the beginning - I had a high inflamation rate so my PCP put me on celebrex and some other stuff - but it didn't help - my PCP doesn't believe tmj can cause all my symptoms - thinks tmj is more like stiffness and moderate pain - but not cause spasms - so he still thinks its a neuro or brain disease or condition. But if you remember at one point I did want to go see a rheumy thinking even if wasn't RA maybe he would give me something to help with the inflamation and body pain. But my dad used prendisone to treat his RA (he tried a host of drugs in the beginning too) and he still developed joint deformity and was always achey and in pain - and most of the other new drugs out to treat it come with a lengthy list of potential risks.
I give you credit for going through with the appt LTC - I am so glad you did it - and I know what it took to not jump out of the chair and leave - I get like that too. Especially if I start seeing strange expressions on the dr's face and start thinking - oh another guy who thinks I am a freak.
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