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Appliance Fitting Part 6


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Old 02-04-2009, 11:53 AM   #1
Thelma-Louise
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Appliance Fitting Part 6

Guess I should come with a new title but this one seems so relative to our discussions.

Gee LTC - seems like you have the choice between two evils - although I was not thrilled with your last dentist b/c he relied so heavily on the osteo, dragged his feet on making new dentures, and once made, they made things worse, I completely understand your trepidation about the new guy as well - to work with someone who is not knowledgeable about tmj and how the body reacts to bite changes - and how he is doing his adjustments - is worrisome. But going back to the other guy I doubt will result in much improvement or difference in his apporach either. - I think you just got comfortable with him and trust him more so b/c he does treat tmj per se. I would still give this new guy some time but in the meantime start searching for others in your area as a backup plan. My dentist has not yet tried to adjust my overdentures while they are in my mouth but that is b/c his adjustments have been to the denture itself and so widespread he has to bring it to a table drill or file he has in a back room so I am not sure how he will do bite adjustments once I get a set that actually fits in my mouth. I guess he sees them as part of your mouth and as such should be adjusted while in your mouth just like someone with natural teeth.

How is your posture - do you have one shoulder or hip higher than the other - are you walking comfortably? is your head tilted forward or to the side? Is you neck stiff or tight - can you bring your head all the way back - up and down and side to side? As I mentioned before its hard for me to understand what the osteo does as I have never been to one - but if it is similar to cranial sacral therapy - I doubt it will re-align your body - although it may help your muscles relax and make you more comfortable - like cranial sacral therapy did for me - but unless an osteo actually moves or shifts the underlying skeletal structure (which cranial sacral therapy does not do either) - I don't see how it corrects the problem.

I just wish we had a crystal ball sometimes to know what to do. Well now I can't recall what else you mentioned in your other post - so I will stop here for now.

 
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:25 PM   #2
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

The osteo will push on my spine, check my rib cage and shoulders and feels my pubic area and buttock working her way to my head and cranial bones.

No I don't think dentures should have bite adjustments when in the mouth, different with real teeth ya know, I mean they are not stable and rest on the whole gum and have no bone support so it feels like your whole jaw is being drilled on.

Acutally my posture in my opinion is ok, my hips are stil torqued. and sometimes feel like my Left side leads ya know, you have that too where one side of the pelvis feels forward.

All the dentist around here pretty much know one another I think, although I think they hang out in their little groups ya know. they have their own clicks so to say,

Your right about my old dentist, but at least he did bite adjustments sitting up, and drilled on my dentures out of my mouth, but then there is the drive to.

I just can't wait for you to get your splints and see how they work, I know your anxious too. man I hope they work as it gives hope to the rest of us.

I just don't know, unless I go back to my old dentist and tell him the teeth are just not working out and see what he says.

 
Old 02-04-2009, 01:03 PM   #3
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

I "had" hip torqueing - its gone now - in fact I am walking almost normally again - a bit stiffly though although last night my right hip was aching while I was in bed - so I will mention that when I go back next week - but it could be from his latest adjustment - I had body jerking while trying to sleep last night and that is generally an after affect as well.

Ah see - I didn't know what it would feel like if the dentist drilled on the over denture in my mouth - so just tell him - politely stop him by putting your hand up when he nears you with the drill and just say I am sorry but that feels horrible in my mouth as my dentures wobble and I feel the vibration through my entire body and it rattles my brain as well (say something to make him laugh a bit) - please take them out to adjust them. Don't worry about hurting his feelings - take that anger you have about how all of this has morphed into a major nightmare and vent it in a postive and constructive manner and start taking more control over what they do. I am not saying you will see a sudden change in how things are working out - only that you will feel better knowing you tried to shift it your way a bit to get the outcome you want. Easier said then done I know - especially when you are not feeling well.

I was told the same thing though - dentists in an area know one another - its like a clique or good old boys club. That's why the ones I have gone to are all over NY state - they have heard of each other or met at conferences but are not close enough to really know each other - and they have all been of different dental philosophies too.

You don't have to go back to your old dentist - call him and tell him the teeth are not working and see what he says - does he charge you just for walking in the door as some do?

Last edited by Thelma-Louise; 02-04-2009 at 01:05 PM.

 
Old 02-04-2009, 07:30 PM   #4
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

I'll try to comment on all your new posts.
First, I signed up for the friends and tried to PM but got a note that the Admin has turned the PM off. Can you send smth to me, maybe I can reply then? Still don't understand how it will work: just all the friends can read or what?

LTC, I was curious all day about your dental visit. I assume by tomorrow you'll know better how it feels. From all his replies I'd stay with this guy at least for now. He might not need your CtScan b/c your jaw just opens and behaves normally for him. Even mine does to their point of view while I have more mess in the disks. So this is not a bad sign for him. About drilling in your mouth TL gave good suggestions on how to be more in control and talk in a joking way. I'd simply remove the denture myself and hand it to him saying that it will be easier for him to adjust it this way. If he'd say "no", then say that it bothers you too much, the vibration or else. This is not a sign of a bad dentist!
He does indeed need to find the right VDO while the old dentist didn't seem to understand this at all!

I am glad that your posture is getting back to normal. Just watch what happens with the jaw if you try to stand straight and bring your forward hip slightly back to its place. Shake all your muscles and let them align. It might make you jaw moves slightly to the same side too.

I do not quite agree with TL about the need to move the bones. If they can they will gladly go there on their own. The problem can be in the deep muscle spasms. An osteo, or a good osteo should be able to relax the deep musculature which we normally are not even aware of.
Of course, it's all individual and also what we believe in makes it more working for us (you know, placebo effect!).
LTC, when are you going to see the NM again?

TL, when they did a facebow on me, few times, they never measured the midline of the chin. I just had to bite on smth and they didn't even care whether it was my bite or not. It was basically for them to get the upper jaw measured and aligned to the axis of the tmj's (which can be measured quite well by the ear openings). So maybe that guy didn't really know what he was going?

When you say adjusting one side first it depends. I think it would work if only one plane (upper or lower) was messed up. But now, as I understand, and as is in my case too, your both planes are twisted (like a propeller) so adjusting only one side might not be possible to extend on the other side later. I tried doing it after my lower plane was twisted so by now I have the feel. If the plane is “crossed” it won’t work.

What I still can't figure out is what makes the jaw slide forward or back and not stay calmly where it wants to bite. Today when I had my night guard adjusted in one tiny spot, I chatted with that dentist for a while. He couldn't give me any answer about this despite his 30 year long teaching. He said it can be the whole plane or it can be just one small incline that is doing it: there is no one rule!

BTW, I don't think I can sleep in this nightguard but at least biting on it for short intervals might be useful. At least it's biting on smth and it's soft so my teeth (I can only place one 3t bridge with it) shouldn't be traumatized more.
I told him that I played with the splints (his NG is flat just as the store's NG is) and could see my plane. TL, I think you can try this too. Just place one on the jaw according to your feel of how the jaw moves, or just by eye "parallel" to your eyes (or ears) - I prefer the eyes! Then try placing the other so that the jaw will slide back and front along them and will not slide sideways. You might need to adjust the first one again. Once you get this approximately, really make one of them stable, and possibly then the other one too. Mine are too thick to wear (it's not like the VDO that I need to bite) but at least it gives some feel that yes, this comfy path and the plane exist!

 
Old 02-04-2009, 08:45 PM   #5
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

Stillhope - you may have added LTC and me to your friends or contact network list but I don't think you enabled pm. Try going into edit my profile or options and look for something with a tiny circle that you can click on that might be blank right now (it should have a check mark in it) that says enable pm to allow me to send and receive msgs. Although I see you in my friends list its not allowing me to contact you via email - yet with LTC when I click on her user ID it gives me the option to email her or pm her - the pm is disabled but the email works. Not sure if that is clear enough or not as it took me several minutes to figure out how I was able to contact her - I did it by accident so to speak. Basically once you enable the option to recieve pm I can send you an email msg and then we can communicate off the board via regular email protocol. So it only goes to whoever the msg is sent to - not to all your friends at the same time.

I am talked out right now - just tired from lack of sleep again so I will pick this up tomorrow, OK? hope you are hanging in there.

 
Old 02-05-2009, 11:59 AM   #6
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

I called my old dentist to and told them I need an adjustment- it'll be 3 weeks for a denture adjustment. I was going to have him try lowering them, just to see how that would be.

Stillhope- I tried to pm you=let me know.

Stillhope- how is the nightguard working?

I saw the NM and I really think he maybe lowered my bite too much- like if you went to a dentist and he shaved all your back teeth down-thats what he did , now I got one high biting dentures and one low biting dentues. I can feel a big difference in my neck with the low ones.

Why oh why is the vdo bite so hard for them, can't tell tell my your mouth and facial features. Seems to me they could figure it out to be close enough for the muscles and talking and everything.

Sometimes I think dentist are so in a hurry they just do the hit and miss, trying to see as many patients in one day that they can.

 
Old 02-05-2009, 09:22 PM   #7
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

Sorry no post earlier today - I had to run some errands and a bit out of sorts as usual. Still no call from my dentist this week - I really would not be surprised if they are not just forgetting about me - I have never heard of a lab taking 6 weeks or more like this - ever.

LTC - what part did the NM dentist lower - the bottom or top? At this point I would be filing them myself, but I know you don't want to ruin something that you spent $4k on - the first few temp overdentures were only $500 - so I didn't feel as bad when I did start filing them. Whe you say you feel a big diff in your neck - is that good or bad?

Stillhope - that's OK about not agreeing on the use of chiros - its not for everyone.

B/c I had implants my case may be slightly different than others as it seems the implants were torqued or pulled on by the ill-fitting replacement bridges. The night this all started I first was awoken by terrible nausea and pain and the urge to yawn - but when I yawned my whole face pulled sideways - it probably wasn't really a yawn - I mean who wakes up in the middle of the night to yawn, right? By the next morning my tongue was spasming - circling my back teeth incessantly and I couldn't stop it and the pain and nausea from the night before was just as bad. The next night I heard a popping noise under my nose at the back of my palate - or kind of where my tonsils would be and felt a slight tremor with each pop. To me I thought it felt like piano keys being pressed on. Not your standard or commonly experienced tmj symptoms which is why many drs initially said it was not tmj - and it may not have been - it was made into tmj or a bite issue by dentists I subsequently went to trying to figure out what it was - I probably have more of a cranial derangement issue due to the implants being pulled on and it affected the neck. Plus the MRI did show bulging on discs C5 6 and 7 and C1 rotated left- so no offense to anyone using an osteopath, but I just don't see how those can be corrected with a deep tissue massage and correcting the posture and so forth. I couldn't even hold my head up by the end of that first week.

Strangely enough last night on tv there was an ad about spasmotic torticolis (sp?) which induces a painfully tilted head - and the woman they showed with it - well her head is kind of tilted the way mine is at times. Even now when I straighten it out I get a sharp pain up the left side of my face and head and that is when the teeth on the left side feel like they are twisted somehow. I still wonder if my issue is not bite related sometimes but is something else - so like LTC - I am confused and bewildered by all of this - even I wonder why it has been so hard for dentists to rebuild my bite - and if its not due to some other underlying cause.

Is your jaw jumping side to side in an effort to feel the teeth along the cheeks? My dentist was saying that the teeth serve as a reference for the jaws and muscle to use - when your facial and mouth msucles feel the resistance equally against them this in turn helps control them which in turn forces the jaw to move correctly or equally. So by certain msucles not feeling the resistance the way they should, those who feel too much resistance can pull the jaw toward that direction. Eventually the muscles on the other side become taut as a result and will then pull the jaw in the back. Because the resistance is not equal on both side this develops into a pattern of jumping back and forth - or so he says.

Well I hope to talk to you both tomorrow.

Yipee - its supposed to finally warm up and get near 50 degrees this weekend - I can't wait and I am tired of all the snow and the cold. And wearing a winter coat - my shoulders and neck can't take much more of it.

 
Old 02-06-2009, 06:02 AM   #8
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

TL- its suppose to warm up here too -40 and 50's. Yeah, I'm not ready to let go of my winter coat till its at least 65 tho.

The torque, I saw a guy on tv and his head was twisted to the side,spasmotic torticolis , and after several botox treatments he was good again, I guess he had been like
that for years with the sideways head, which was turned over to his one shoulder so he could only look sideways.

when you got those implants and bridge they just torqued you all up- I can just see how that happened, and thats how I feel, and like sometimes I think I felt better before al those cranial treatments and I can actually feel my head bones, maybe because
I wear the upper denture with the palate.It feel like my r. jaw wants to move back.

That new dentist worked on my old lower partial, and he took most of the teeth off down to the wires in the back, so with the old upper, not any bite in the back to speak of,

my neck feels with them so low and then it kinda affected my whole body, not in the best way and the ear ringing. what a mess. No he did not touch the new dentures nor did I or would I.

The jumping back and forth , yes thats kinda what I have , like a teeter totter and nothing lines up and the bite never feels comfortable.

I just can't believe your not hearing from your dentist yet, its been so long again, usually labs are quicker than that ya know. Next week you should hear something, I know when Fri comes you know they are not working.Remember the days all dentist worked Mon - Fri, now they are all closed on Fri.

Stillhope- I pm'd you back but didn't get your email address. Your settings may not be right. I know it worked for me and TL. Confusing as I'm not sure what I did, but I played around with it.

I think the thing with chiro's or osteo, you need to find the right one. TL's has a good chiro, but like she said my osteo is not really getting me aligned or if she is the dentures are torqueing me or I'm not holding my alignment.

 
Old 02-06-2009, 07:44 AM   #9
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

I remember the days when my dentist worked 6 days - Saturdays were for patients who worked and it was the weekedays that were not as busy and I remember the days where you usualy got a full 30 -45 mins with the dentist - now they bring 3 people in diif exam rooms and rotate 15 mins with each at the same time. Its like being on aan assembly line.

Too low on your bottom back teeth is not good either. I don't know what the answer is LTC - I rememberr at one time my back teeth were higher than the little bump or ridge at the very back - I was able to brush floos around it - now my back teeth are equal with it.

I am still looking for pictures btw - I don't think I let anyone take any since this started and if I did it was with my mouth closed and lips stretched over them. I may have something from the dentist but they were of spasms to document for SSDI.

Well that one tooth that I thought was getting an infection several months ago is acting up again and the gum around it looks very puffy and red - I think I am going to need another root canal - I didn't go last time b/c it settled down after a couple weeks but the last few days I can see it becoming an issue again.

I remember a friend of my mothers who spent thousands on getting root canals and crowns and perio treatment and within a year she had to have them all removed and go to dentures - sometimes I wonder if that's not going to happen to me in the end too.

I am like that too LTC - I won't go without a coat or scarf until its 65 degrees. This year I even took to wearing ear muffs under the hood of my coat - I thought they would bother me - but it turns out the slight compression on them makes them feel better, plus it muffles out loud noise.

 
Old 02-06-2009, 01:12 PM   #10
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

I got TL's email and replied. Can't figure out how to send one to LTC. I replied to your PM. I am pretty bad with the computer settings.

LTC, I can't sleep in the nightguard, it's too thick with the temps. I was just using it to bite on but the problem is that as soon as I take it out the jaw starts going forward and I become too foggy and next to unconscious. It's easier for me just to keep the jaw w/o anything and make my tongue work. It must have become a real hard-worker by now!

I got my "real splint" today! But I feel like crying from the situation, will email you the details.

TL, I was thinking too about your lab. I don't like this situation at all. Maybe they messed smth up and he resent to them? Why don't you call and try to find out.
BTW, there were several things which you quoted from "my dentist" (I guess, the last one??) which were the first times for me to hear this from a "dental source" (a dentist, or dental writings) and which I "discovered" myself. This dentist seems to be really competent. I hope he can fix your teeth if he will put enough effort.

It's interesting about the ear-muffs b/c I am wearing them at home at times b/c their pressure allows the jaw to be more aligned and relaxed (besides the warmth).
Me too, I'll keep my warm coat till people around will be in T-shirts! I am freezing all the time.

What helps very well from inflamed gums and teeth is the goldenseal root tincture (preferably alcohol free); I put a drop or two on the gum and then cover it with a piece of cotton, p.towel, etc. so it won't be washed out too soon.
I know all about the dental "assembly line"!! I call it a "processing line", b/c they are disassembling us rather than assembling.

LTC, is your head "falling" to the back now? Like your chin goes up?
In order to stop your teeter-totter they really need to find the "corner stones" of your bite plane. This means the height on the last molars (left and right). Can you move the jaw fr-back better? Can you close your lips now w/o pushing your jaw out? Just communicate to the new dentist all that you feel. He seems to be knowledgeable about this, and you can see him pretty often, right?

TL, I agree that not every spine problem can be resolved by just relaxing. Even if it is possible it might be still a long process.
Also it took me about 2 years of seeing and listening to that tai-chi guy before I "got it",and started learning how to do this. I was saying "yes, of course, relaxing is good, but ..." I was too busy, or in too much pain, or whatnot,or I'd just take few breathes and think that this was it.
As they say in Buddhism: when the student is ready, the teacher comes.
At some point, I became ready. If I'd hear this (and in fact, I did!) when I was all crooked from my skewed bite I would not believe it. I believed only in hard work to make the muscles strong.
We should do what works for us at the moment; if it will change let it change.

 
Old 02-06-2009, 02:24 PM   #11
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

Hi- whick tooth is that TL, one on the bottom. just one more thing hey. I know sometimes risning with salt water helps too. I know alot of people spend lots of money trying to keep their teeth just to end up in dentures.

do root canals make the tooth weaker?

I'm in my new dentures today and ya know I really notice the slope, ever since he lowered the left side a few weeks
ago, and I developed the L. head tilt (even the new dentist said it) and the right tight body. I do think the plane must be off. I remember when I first
got them the tightness was straight down my spine, just he lowed the left bite per osteo recommedations and ever since then the head tilt and tight right side , so yep alot comes into play here.

Stillhope- with the set he lowered I can't feel the back bite, he went to low. Ugh neither set fits right. Curious to hear about your splint.

Last edited by luvtocamp; 02-06-2009 at 02:26 PM.

 
Old 02-06-2009, 02:31 PM   #12
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

Well I got your email Stillhope and included LTC so you can be introduced - hope I was not too presumptuous or forward.

Stillhope - you say things and I am practically jumping out of my chair - see dentists don't speak the way we do - but what you said here

"In order to stop your teeter-totter they really need to find the "corner stones" of your bite plane. This means the height on the last molars (left and right). "

I have lost this - and what I do have is different from side to side - and it feels like they moved the upper last tooth on each side outward towards my cheek - kind of llike when you are standing still and your feet just point straightforward - well my toes are now pointing inward and my heels feel like they point outward - so to walk (which would be akin to oening the mouth to speak)- it can't be done - it pulls on the front as if I need to straighten it out first - like re-point the toe or front part of the foot.

Well you have been dealing with this much longer than I have so I am sure I have a lot to learn yet - even the things I have learned have taken time a long time to acquire and most were out of shear exhaustion and desperation too.

When this first started I started to tie a bandana around my head very tightly and it did help - it just never occurred to me the ear muffs would do the same thing. I thought they would bother me like necklaces and turtlenecks do now. Even my darn bra feels like turnoquette - like I am being strangled.

I did call my dentist 2 weeks ago and they said it was sent to the lab amd they would call me when it came in - but my gut is telling me they forgot about it. This happened in Sept too, remmber LTC? - I was hoping to have it for my BD and didn't get it until Nov or Dec. It could be though its been going back and forth where my dentist looks at and compares it my original models and then sends it back for more changes. I am trying not to push him on it b/c I just want it done right for a change - this is my 3rd or 4th set with him. I am glad you give him thumbs up - I like him too - its just that so far he hasn't been able to make anything I can get in or keep in my mouth.

Where do I get the goldenseal root tincture - a healthfood or vitamin shop?

Last edited by Thelma-Louise; 02-06-2009 at 02:33 PM.

 
Old 02-06-2009, 05:02 PM   #13
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

I heard from a dentist that a tooth with a root canal done is like a dead tree. In fact, I read some dental sites where the dentists were pretty much against doing root canals at least so often. The teeth are more than the "stones" with a channel, they are alive, these cells need to live and exchange stuff...
Yes, salty solution is good too, or even a mild solution of peroxide (forgot the exact proportion), but that's to rinse. I think that goldenseal root is stronger and thicker so it stays there better. It is also great for the gum pockets or any gum bleeding. Yes, TL in any Health store (like Whole Foods) they must have it.
I can't wear a turtleneck either but I wear a ski neck-gator to keep myself warm (it's wide). Yah, stopped wearing a bra at all, why bother? It feels good to have the freedom...

TL, I met few very educated dentists who could tell me lots of useful things and it all looked so clear that I was sure that they will do what they said for my bite. It was not the case. In practice, they messed up what I had and I was afraid to point it out to them b/c we had such a "great communication". So I stayed with one of them for almost two years with zero result! It's so hard to know what to do.

 
Old 02-06-2009, 06:13 PM   #14
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Re: Appliance Fitting Part 6

LTC - it seems you posted just a few minutes before I did - I didn't even see your post until now. Its a lower central molar on the right side. Its probably b/c that side is better to somehwat chew on so it must be getting the brunt of everything.

2 dentists have told me that root canaled teeth can actually mess things up by sending the worng signals to the brain - even though the nerve is deadened - I don't know - personally I think the real problem with root canals is - yes they do weaken the tooths structure - but the post they put in it - they often make them so high and then tell you the crown needs to be that high - so? - lower the post, don't lower other teeth trying to compensate.

I had that too Stillhope - stayed with one guy way too long simply b/c I agreed with what he was saying, until his inabiity to resolve my problem made him panic a bit and he started having others look at me and came up with the idea of surgery and so forth. I am with my current dentist a bit too long now too - so I am hoping we make some progress with this new overdenture otherwise I may need to move on.

I am so hoping it will be warm tomorrow - I need a break from feeling so cold and rigid.

 
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