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Old 04-21-2009, 10:48 AM   #1
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Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

Many of you know me as a person suffering from major muscular TMD for the last 7 years. The problem had gotten significantly worse after braces were taken off in late 2007. I had been racking my brains trying to figure out why for the past year and a half....

The funniest thing happened two weekends ago. I was eating an apple and all of a sudden the internal retainer on the inside of my bottom teeth that had been glued on since late 2007 popped off. I started to get mad about how I would now have an orthodontia bill on top of the insane amount of money I had already spent on failed TMJ treatments. As the day progressed, the muslce tension in my head was ever so slightly starting to ease up. By the next day, my body was slowly starting to untorque.

I'm not cured of muscular TMJ and may never be. I still do have some muscle tension as I always did before the retainer was placed. However, it has gotten much better. I'm no longer planning on any kamikaze missions or personally causing myself to meet my creator anytime soon. So, I did find the missing link.

BTW - I am still going as planned w/ bilateral arthroplasty and lower osteotomy in the months to come. Hopefully this will kick me another few percentage points in the positive direction as well.

 
Old 04-23-2009, 06:26 AM   #2
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

Hey folks, this was a legitimate discovery. I have gotten about 60% better in the last two weeks.

 
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:42 AM   #3
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

That is great news - I hope it only keeps getting better from here on. Interesting that none of the dentists you have been to even suspected this as part of the problem or even tried to see what would happen if it was removed.

 
Old 04-23-2009, 06:00 PM   #4
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

Maxwell29,
Great news. What was the purpose of the retainer? 60% better is huge - celebrate.
-Loudawg

 
Old 04-24-2009, 12:03 PM   #5
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

Great news Maxwell- glad your feeling better.

What is a retainer and how did you forget it was there?

I am going ahead with the NCR.

 
Old 04-30-2009, 11:36 AM   #6
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

The retainer was just a metal wire that was glued behind my bottom back teeth, from lower canine to lower canine on the inside. So, it was behind about 6 teeth total. There was a huge amount of bonding material on the back of each canine to help hold it on. However, the bonding material was not removed until yesterday, so that wasn't causing all of the problems.

Have to take back the optimistic 60% and call it a cool 40-45%. Like I said before, I still have muscular TMJ. I still carry some tension in my back and stomach. But this retainer was really making my muscular system go nuts.

This problem really started to kick up in the summer of 2007 right when the braces were removed and the retainer was bonded on. I always had tension and TMJ, but I can remember waiting in line at a Subway Sandwiches restaurant in Colorado that summer and suddenly I started getting twitches in my leg and calf. I was like, why is this problem getting worse? Am I more stressed out? Was it only the braces that had given me the illusion of the problem getting better? Then, I felt really tired, and almost sick, which I'd never felt before in the coming weeks. It took a while for it to slowly descend into hell, but by August of 07 I was desperately looking for help and having "pain emergencies" where it felt like all the muscles in my body were in spasm and I couldn't sleep or function very well.

Yeah, it seems a bit weird that none of the dentists, especially the ones at Tufts University Craniofacial Pain Center, even suspected that the retainer might be causing it. That just goes to show you how variable and mysterious this disorder really is.

I do have a non-reducing disc on the left side despite the fact that I can open fully. I think it is the underlying issues with my joints that make my mouth so sensitive to little changes.

I know a lot of you have problems with locked cranial bones. I've never really suspected that this was my problem, though the theory of a crooked sphenoid bone does intrigue me. I have no idea. Maybe the lower retainer was somehow not allowing the bones in my lower jaw to move as well and then making the muscles go nuts. However, I think the biggest issue was that the metal and bonding matrial inside the teeth gave my tongue less room to come forward and my body really did not like this for some reason. Still confused about the whole situation. I'm still in some discomfort but it's as if I'm slowly waking up from a nightmare.....

 
Old 04-30-2009, 12:15 PM   #7
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

Now that I can function okay again, I am going to make good on my promise of creating an informative website devoted to musculoskeletal issues caused by tmj. I think this is the least understood type of TMJ and, as all of you know, many healthcare professional do not believe it exists.

I'm basically going to get all of those diagrams and explanations for 'Dental Distress Disorder' and back it up with all kinds of other articles. Then I'm going to tell about my own experiences and warn people exactly how much they will be doubted by healthcare professionals. All in all, it should be a guide for those in this bad situation to waste as little money possible and go directly to treatments that will help them the most. Also, there will be a bit on the 'TMJ Iatroepidemic' and how we've all been altered by the dentistry profession previous to developing our problems.

Here are some of the articles I've found below. For some reason, the Japanese have done lots of research on this stuff:

The influence of an experimentally-induced malocclusion on vertebral alignment in rats: a controlled pilot study.
D'Attilio M, Filippi MR, Femminella B, Festa F, Tecco S.
Department of Orthodontics, University of Chieti, Italy. simtecc@tin.it

Changes in weight distribution at the feet due to occlusal supporting zone loss during clenching.
Yoshino G, Higashi K, Nakamura T.
Osaka University Graduate School of Dentistry, Div. of Oromaxillofacial Regeneration, 1-8 Yamadaoka, Suita, Osaka 565-0871, Japan. yoshino@dent.osaka-u.ac.jp

Changes in head position due to occlusal supporting zone loss during clenching.
Yoshino G, Higashi K, Nakamura T.
Osaka University, Graduate School of Dentistry, Division of Oromaxillofacial Regeneration, Japan. yoshino@dent.osaka-u.ac.jp

The effect of head posture on muscle contact position: the sliding cranium theory.
Makofsky H.
Takahisa Shimazaki, Tatsuyoshi Sugai and Shinkichi Namura:
Biomechanical influences of head posture on occlusion: an experimental study using fmite
element analysis. European Journal of Orthodonties 2002.

Influence of the Loss of the Occlusal Supporting Zone on the Head Position in Clenching.
Journal Title;Nihon Hotetsu Shika Gakkai Gakujutsu Taikai Shorokushu

 
Old 04-30-2009, 02:23 PM   #8
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

Hey Maxwell29,
I could totally relate to your story about standing in line at Subway and having an attack of symptoms. I've been in line at a store before and have had an onset of tension including leg twitches and sinus / jaw / facial / throat and back tension come over me. Usually I just leave and go lie down in the car... I remember feeling like I would want to curl up in a corner and die.

Anyhow, just wanted to say that I could relate. I'm getting my first jaw MRI tomorrow!
-Loudawg

 
Old 04-30-2009, 02:27 PM   #9
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

Loudawg - I am curious to find out the results of your MRI. I think I told you this before, but I had to have a TMJ MRI redone because the first dentist did not send me to the right facilities with surface coils and high resolution. Hope this doesn't happen to you as well.

Here is one more article I'm going to be using on the site: Head posture and cervicovertebral and craniofacial morphology in patients with craniomandibular dysfunction.Huggare JA, Raustia AM.
Dental School, University of Otago, New Zealand.

 
Old 05-13-2009, 08:34 AM   #10
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

HELLO MAXWELL interesting about the retainer you may be able to google an article by John D Laughlin published in a magazine called Journal of Bodywork and Movement Therapies, about how crossing the midline of the mandible or maxilla with fixed dental structures can have a detrimental effect. I am half wondering if this may be part of my own problem as I have a bridge crossing symphysis fixed on implants and am having some truly awful symptoms although it may be caused by other factors. Are people able to exchange email addresses on this site ? if so how ?

 
Old 05-13-2009, 10:10 AM   #11
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

Oh man - this is what started me on my nightmarish journey. I had upper and lower anterior implants to support bridges. I was fine for almost 7 yrs or so until a bridge chipped and exposed an implant and instead of going back to the dentist who did the work my periodontist strongly urged me to go to a prosthodontist he knew. From the first day with the new bridges I started complaining of pain and weird symtpoms and over time developed clenching, snoring and then sleep apena and facial muscle fatigue - all during this time I kept requesting he remove the new bridges and put the old ones back on. After 4 yrs I finally "snapped" one night and have been incapacitated since.

If you are interested in exchanging email addresses here you first need to invite a member to be your "friend" - its up to them to accept or not - this is done by going into My Settings and chosing their user name under Contacts. Once that is done you can change your Edit options to allow members to email you directly by checking the appropriate box. Once that is done, if the member accepts your invitation for friendship, and both of you have changed your edit options to allow members to send emails to you, when you click on their contact info you will be given 2 options to communicate with them, private msging or emailing. If you do not change your edit profile to allow for emailing, but the member did accept your invitation for friendship you will only be allowed to send private msging. I made it sound more complex than it really is, I am sure.

 
Old 05-13-2009, 03:15 PM   #12
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

I wonder what was different about your new bridges. If it was only one implant that was exposed presumably just at the bottom or top why did he change both upper and lower bridges.
Cranial osteopaths maintain that it is particularily bad to cross the midline at the top as it locks up the cranium but it can also be bad to do so in mandible shame we can't post images of x rays on this site to show implants. Were the new bridges made of a different material ? or was the occlusion altered. I try to always have plaster casts as a record .My bridge is screwed in on five implants which are very long and go into the dense bone in the lower jaw.I am thinking of asking to have it made removable and not to cross the midline. My dentist who did the implants refuses to try and improve things for me he has no understanding of what this is doing to me other dentists have tried with no successI am now trying to get a dentist who will talk to my cranial osteopath . My head is just being split in two the tightness and muscle spasms going from my head down through my neck to pelvis and feet is unbelievable like being in a straightjacket everywhere. I will try and write down symptoms more precisely when I can so we can compare notes.

 
Old 05-13-2009, 10:18 PM   #13
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

I know, I was foolish to let myself get talked into redoing both bridges when it was just the upper one that needed repairing. He kept insisting there would be no way to get the new upper bridge to look similar to the older lower bridge and to get them to look similar they should both be redone at the same time - and I bought into it. He also replaced existing crowns on either sides of both bridges for the same reason - also stupid on my part for allowing it.

The newer bridges were heavier - much heavier - and bulkier and longer as he said he was trying to close what he thought to be an anterior open bite. It might have been slightly open but it wasn't noticeable or bothersome to me other than I could not grasp a thread or a piece of floss with my front teeth - but how often does one need to anyway? When he tried on the metal which the bridge or pontics are subsequently fused to - I told him both felt odd - like they were tugging on the implants - but he insisted this would change once the the pontics were added. But once the bridges were put on - I did not have the screw in type but he type that just gets cemented to the implant posts, I immediately felt like my mouth was being pulled toward one side. My tongue could no longer go to the center of the upper bridge but instead went to the left of it making my upper front teeth or implants feel like they were off center. Plus the upper bridge felt like it was pushing the left crowned canine to the point the canine became chronically numb and eventually began to throb non-stop despite having a root canal done as well. I started to get facial muscle fatigue and found it difficult to sleep with my mouth closed - this prompted me to start using more pillows which in turn induced snoring, clenching and sleep apnea. At first the dentist kept telling me I would get used to it - and I would argue with him that there should be nothing to get used to - they should feel like my own natural teeth did - just like the previous bridges did. This went on for more than a year where it seems I was at his office 2-3 times a month. Then my dad passed away and I needed to clean out his house in another state and sell it so it took me almost a year before I was able to get back to the dentist and try once again to resolve the problems I was having - but by this time he started insisting it wasn't his bridges causing the problem but that I had tmj - as if tmj was a condition unrelated to bite or teeth. Suffice to say that relationship did not end on a happy note as we had a huge fight the week before I had my first facial spasm.

I think there should be a law or something about not letting dentists do reconstructive work unless they are thoroughly trained in all aspects of oral orthopedics, musculoskeletal alignment and neuromuscular functioning so this type of thing does not happen.

I am in my 5th year now - and have slowly made some improvement so am functioning better than when this first started - but I do sympathize with you as my first 3 yrs were a living hell and I did nothing but cry all the time and go from dr to dr - couldn't eat or sleep, was nauseous all the time, felt like I was choking and was getting 100's (no exaggeration either) of facial spasms a day. I had body pain and muscle twitching and trouble walking and tingling and numbness throughout the body as well as ear ringing and a change in posture and alignment of my c-spine.

I think the best thing I ever did was letting my current tmj dentist just remove the bridges and crowns - previous tmj dentists had also talked me into crowning my back molars which made things worse as well - this basically left me with no teeth or bite - and then sending me to a cranial chiro that uses applied kenisiology for the last year or so with no further dental work or treatment - this allowed my body to unwind or un-torque itself which can be prevented or interferred with by dental work or prosthetics.

Perhaps if you showed your current dentist some literature to support what you are trying to tell him he might change his mind? Although I know the guy who did my bridges would probably snicker at me had I done that. But maybe if he reads up on it he may realize the logic behind it?

 
Old 05-14-2009, 08:29 AM   #14
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

I am quite sure it was NOT YOU who was foolish. There used to be such a thing as the Hippocratic Oath . Thank you for writing about it all in detail.

There must be others out there who have experienced similar problems.
Your description of your jaw being pulled to the left is very much what I felt when my bridge first went on. Bumping in to that left canine. My bridge goes from left lower back molar to right lower canine. There was not enough bone so the implants have been placed further out to the left (buccaly ) then where my teeth were which means I have quite a crossbite. It is my left jaw joint which is the worst and I worry about having no lower back molars there were I to take bridge out. Do you still have all your molars ( back teeth )?

Did you have TMJ problems before your bridge work ? Have you had MRI scans done?

With a TMJ problem no molars on on side , just at the bottom, is I am told bad news, however a malaligned bridge may be even worse news.

How are things for you now ? Is it 1 year since you had bridges and crowns removed ? Are you able to walk better now, have you got some quality of life back ?

The spasms I experience affect mainly left side of my face and jaw which go tight also eyes , sometimes sides of nose yes I get Tinnitus sometimes Hyperacusis sometimes hearing impairment the spasms radiate down through neck ( Canít turn my head or look up ) down through left shoulder top left diaphragm with great tightness below heart then across into right hip and left coccyx down the legs. My whole body is in a torque going against the grain. I have difficulty using my arms and walking.
I have been fine all my life very active until this.

I am 55 my troubles all started when I was 45 and a dentist did some occlusal grinding I have written about this on the other thread
TMJ Joint Replacement Surgery is not an answer.


I gave this article http://www. * removed *
to my dentist do you know of any other literature ?

Last edited by hb-mod; 05-14-2009 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Please don't post links and/or instructions regarding commercial websites as per Posting Policy. Thanks.

 
Old 05-14-2009, 01:55 PM   #15
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Re: Major Discovery: Internal Retainer on Bottom Teeth Made Problem Much Worse!

I believe Maxwell posted the titles of some some books you may want to read that do document this type of problem - published literature may be more persuasive with your dentist. I do have PM and email enabled as well for you.

No I didn't have tmj issues before this started but I have a extensive dental history brought on by childhood accidents - got sideswiped by a bicycle and knocked my 4 upper front baby teeth out at age 5, then did the same thing in a roller skating incident at age 11 - smashed my face into the pavement and needed the 4 upper front teeth wired in as one had been knocked out and the others loosened. They all survived although the one that came totally out did need a root canal and remained pushed inward and the others were all a bit crooked. By 18 my front teeth started pushing against each other and I felt a lot of pressure on them so I had 3 wisdom teeth removed, one had already erupted and pushed another molar out of its way so the molar was removed and that wisdom tooth left in its place. By my early 20's I decided to get my teeth straightened - hoping they would survive the braces - and 4 more teeth were removed to do this. At the end of ortho treatment my teeth looked and felt great but my chin had become quite receded - so I had a genioplasty done in my late 20's which basically is a respositioning of the chin using wires to secure it in its new position - the bite and and jaw alignment remain unchanged or unaffected - or so I was told. So now not only did my teeth look and feel great but so did my profile. But within 3-4 yrs of this my front teeth just loosened up - the uppers and the lowers, and that is when I did the implants. I was fine with this too for several years until like I said I had the replacement bridges done. So with my hsitory its very hard to determine if it was all due to the new bridges or something from the past - all I know is the sequence of events and when they commenced lends itself to the conclusion it was the new bridges.

Its almost 2 yrs now that I am walking around with no upper and lower front teeth - as I eventually had the implants removed as many dentists were telling me their angle was causing the problem (not true, btw), and all my back molars are filed down having been prepped for crowns. Yes its not a pretty site but when you are in that much pain for a few years you kind of stop worrying about what you look like or others think of you - you just want the pain to stop. Although I still have the pain and other symptoms that I started with - but the severity of both has decreased to where it is more tolerable and medication does now have an impact whereas before even morphine didn't touch the pain. I still am dealing with facial spasms and spasms running up and down my arms, legs and back and other issues, but again, compared to 2 yrs ago, much better. I did have many of the issues you have mentioned - could not walk, could not turn my head, vision and hearing problems - we should probably compare notes at some point. I was 46 when this started and will be 51 this year - feels like I missed what should have been the best years of my life.

Are you seeing or working with any type of chiro or osteopath?

 
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