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Old 03-04-2013, 11:10 AM   #1
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NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

Its been a few years since I've been on Healthboards, so I wanted to give everyone an update. I'm sorry I haven't done this sooner.

First of all, I just want to share my experience with neuromuscular dentistry. I am not implying that it won't work for you, but I just want to say it didn't work for me and my tmd journey is still continuing.

In March of 2010, I flew out to see an ICCMO dentist - this dentist use K7, TENS and EMG's to figure out where my bite was and to fabricate a removable splint. After the visits, I'd feel better, not 100%, but better.... literally a couple of weeks later, I went back to square one, so I flew down again and again for a period of 6 months. We discussed phase 2 to see if that would help... I was given the option of braces or crowns. Well, knowing that braces would take years and require monthly adjustments (more flight expense), I opted for crowns on my lower teeth in later 2010. Didn't help. I went back to crown my upper right rear molar in April of 2011 and that didn't help.

So, being on FB groups that heavily marketed GNM "gneuromuscular" dentistry - not just "neuromuscular", but neuromuscular including gnathological principles, using the exact same equipment (K7, EMG and TENS) and being told that its all in the clinician's use of the equipment and knowhow, I figured that the person I saw from ICCMO didn't use the equipment correctly. So then, I went to see an LVI "master" in late 2011 who put me in a fixed splint. same thing happened - after a couple of weeks, symptoms came back. He removed the fixed spling after 2 months because permanent bite changes could occur and told me if I wanted to keep it in, I would have to pay for phase 2 upfront, $40k, and proceed with their full mouth reconstruction. I ran the heck away from that. I was given a removable splint that didn't do anything for me.

After both experiences, thinking about what was told to us in a private FB group...saying they know more than what LVI does, and there's much more to NM than what LVI and ICCMO dentists know, guess what I did... I flew, yet again,to see an GNM dentist in March of 2012. Same thing happened - felt good for two weeks, then whammo - back to square one. WTH! I went back to this dentist 3 times for adjustments and after the last one, I was done with this NM/GNM theory of treatment.... I asked why I had to keep coming back, and you know what - I was given the same old story over and over - my jaw is coming down and more forward.

I read up about splints from a Utah TMJ dentist. He says that after a couple of weeks, the condyles go back to where they began and muscles engram themselves... not sure if this is true, but I've been searching for a reason why the splints would work for just two weeks.

Anyhow, I am not opposed to any form of treatment - splint therapy, surgery, braces, NM/GNM, etc. I just want everyone to know that after almost 3 years of NM/GNM and $27,000 (not including travel expenses) later, it did not work for my case. I've been told that I didn't give it a long enough time with the GNM dentist... really? C'mon. I also don't want to be put into the category that just because I haven't gone back, I'm doing better. I'm not.

One of the things I've learned from some of the dear friends I've met that are inflicted with TMD and some who have had surgery, or much worse off than I - the state of your discs are so important. You can be functioning on retrodiscal tissue, or no discs, or you may have perforated discs, or necrosing condyles... these are serious problems and the ONLY way to see your tmj discs is through an MRI, not an xray, or CT scan. Most of the dentists (doesn't matter what theory they go by - Centric Relation, Neuromuscuar or Gneuromuscular) do not take this into account - most of the time surgeons do. None of the dentists I've had ever said to get this checked out and I know of some friends of mine who were told that basically it doesn't really matter....just the positioning of the condyles. In some of our cases, it does and has to be addressed. Also, if you do get a CT scan - have a radiologist, not the dentist, give you the info what they see. I had a ICAT performed with the GNM dentist - it was read by the dentist and not much info was given about anything, except for where and how the condyles looked and translated. I am in a completely different type of tmd therapy now - ALF expansion. They did not perform an MRI either, but they did have me go to an imaging center and have another ICAT done.... an oral/maxillofacial radiologist/surgeon read it... so much more information was provided than I have ever received before.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Out of a respect for the dentists I've seen, I will not disclose their names nor their locations.

Again, this is just my experience, my story... GNM / NM / LVI / OC might work for you....

Thank you for listening.

 
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:52 PM   #2
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Re: NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

Thanks for sharing your story with us.

I actually wore a lower mandibular repositioning splint for 26 months. I was better at the 3-6 month mark, but couldn't afford to move forward sooner and I refused to wean off it because I knew my original issues would come back. Before discussing the Phase II options, my orthodontist actually did another 3d cone beam CT scan to check on the positioning of my discs and condyles .

I tried one of those 2 week splints and it did nothing for me. I think I actually went to that UT dentist you read up about splints on and his approach did not address my personal tmjd issues.

In fact I've tried the NTI-type splints 3 times now and even with a good fit they pretty much made things worse.

Personally, I'm not sold that the discs can ever be back to 'normal'. I just want good function and reduction in pain and symptoms. I'm in the process of achieving that. I'm hoping to finish phase II in the next 6 months and will know more on the 'success' then. I chose braces as my phase II.

My choice for treatment was a Functional Orthodontist with master level training in orofacial pain and tmjd treatment training from the Institute of Advanced TMJ Studies. He is also a biologic dentist who practices whole health dentistry. Basically, he looks at the health of the whole body as it relates to the bite and teeth.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:50 AM   #3
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Re: NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

Hi Mountain Reader! There are so many theories on tmd treatment, it can make your head spin! Themain thing is that you are feeling better. Phase 2 is supposed to keep your bite positioned as it was with the splint in phase 1. My previous GNM dentist said that patients should be symptom free in phase 1, splint therapy and the splint is supposed to fix everything, therefore making you symptom free. I never got there in almost three years of being in these NM splints. I hope you are. Keep us posted on your progress.

 
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Old 12-04-2014, 02:59 PM   #4
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Re: NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

Hi THERE,
I felt so bad reading your experience. I just started my treatment ith a GNM and am a very skeptical, but that's is my first treatment , I have never treated with any kind of splint. Hopefully it will work out, It is over 5k and it is not joke. Seems like there is not much regulated treatment for TMJ issues. I am trying this one because it sounds more like my problem, My discs are fine, and healthy, at least for now.. my main problem is muscle.. and bad bite. I clench at night on a very bad bite, and my jaw has shifted to the left.. ringing in the ears, pain in the ears.. neck , face twitches.. facial spams..
did you have any of these symptom?
what else is out there for this kind of problems? Seems lie you know a lot!
Any advice?
Thank you

 
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Old 12-04-2014, 07:39 PM   #5
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Re: NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

Hi Cansada,

Oh yes I can relate. My case is mostly muscle problems. I have a significant overbite which is contributing to my issues. I open normally at 45mm and can fit 3 fingers in mouth sideways. However my jaw zigzags upon opening.

The real problem with treatment is that there aren't set protocols or regulations on what these dentists are doing and charging. Just be careful. They have a very good pitch. And 4-6 month's down the line they may want to start phase 2 and want money upfront. I've been there and have received multiple different opinions on what phase 2 should be and went through with one which crowned my molars and I now have gigantic looking teeth. And this was from the acting iccmo president. So just be careful!

The other issue that concerns me about k7 scans is that they get you sitting in a specific position. They make your perfect just putty bite specific to how you sit in the chair. Well your bite changes when you sit, stand sleep etc.





QUOTE=Cansada;5332018]Hi THERE,
I felt so bad reading your experience. I just started my treatment ith a GNM and am a very skeptical, but that's is my first treatment , I have never treated with any kind of splint. Hopefully it will work out, It is over 5k and it is not joke. Seems like there is not much regulated treatment for TMJ issues. I am trying this one because it sounds more like my problem, My discs are fine, and healthy, at least for now.. my main problem is muscle.. and bad bite. I clench at night on a very bad bite, and my jaw has shifted to the left.. ringing in the ears, pain in the ears.. neck , face twitches.. facial spams..
did you have any of these symptom?
what else is out there for this kind of problems? Seems lie you know a lot!
Any advice?
Thank you[/QUOTE]

 
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Old 12-04-2014, 08:01 PM   #6
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Re: NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

Hi Cansada,

Oh yes I can relate. My case is mostly muscle problems. I have a significant overbite which is contributing to my issues. I open normally at 45mm and can fit 3 fingers in mouth sideways. However my jaw zigzags upon opening.

The real problem with treatment is that there aren't set protocols or regulations on what these dentists are doing and charging. Just be careful. They have a very good pitch. And 4-6 month's down the line they may want to start phase 2 and want money upfront. I've been there and have received multiple different opinions on what phase 2 should be and went through with one which crowned my molars and I now have gigantic looking teeth. And this was from the acting iccmo president. So just be careful!

The other issue that concerns me about k7 scans is that they get you sitting in a specific position. They make your perfect just putty bite specific to how you sit in the chair. Well your bite changes when you sit, stand sleep etc.

Take care.




QUOTE=Cansada;5332018]Hi THERE,
I felt so bad reading your experience. I just started my treatment ith a GNM and am a very skeptical, but that's is my first treatment , I have never treated with any kind of splint. Hopefully it will work out, It is over 5k and it is not joke. Seems like there is not much regulated treatment for TMJ issues. I am trying this one because it sounds more like my problem, My discs are fine, and healthy, at least for now.. my main problem is muscle.. and bad bite. I clench at night on a very bad bite, and my jaw has shifted to the left.. ringing in the ears, pain in the ears.. neck , face twitches.. facial spams..
did you have any of these symptom?
what else is out there for this kind of problems? Seems lie you know a lot!
Any advice?
Thank you[/QUOTE]

 
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Old 12-04-2014, 08:37 PM   #7
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Re: NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

I wish I spoke with you earlier.. I just got my splint and I will start using Monday. I spoke with 1 patient before I made my decision and she was happy with her results, she told me she gave a very hard time to the dentist until her symptoms were all gone...she is now using braces. I was very skeptical even after speaking with her, her symptoms were not like mine. I also don't understand why they have to charge so much for nothing and at the same time they try to sale the idea they are the saviors of lost TMJ people and that the dentistry regulators are against them... and then they come with the conspiracy theory.. of Pharmaceutial companies.. blabla bla.. I roll my eyes , but at the same time, I also heard horrible stories about the traditional treatment making things worse.. so after hearing the same Miracle pitch from 4 dentists and with the same price quote, I thought I would give it a try.. even though I knew it may not work at all...Maybe If i started my treatment back when all my symptoms started about 11 months ago I would've gone with the night splint only.. but at this point, I am so unhappy with the way my face changed , the loss of fullness.. pain everyday... ringing in the ears.. I looks so pitiful, tired and older.. I honestly decided to give it a try even though I am extremely skeptical...
Did you go to any dentist GNM with training with Dr.Clayton Chan? I dont care in droping names, they are all over the INTERNET selling this NMD and GNM miracle treatment The Dr. I am treating was trained with him..
How are you doing now? Have you tried any other treatment?
Cheers

 
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:53 PM   #8
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Re: NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

Hi,

I don't post on here as frequently as I used to. A lot of what I have experienced is represented in my past posts, but I do find your discussions very interesting.

I got lucky finding a dentist with an approach that worked for me on my second try. The dentist I finally chose for my TMJD treatment wasn't trained under any of the specific approaches listed in the title. He was trained to assess each individuals specific issues and customize a treatment plan to help that patient. He didn't use any type of 'cookie cutter' approach that a lot of TMJ practitioners appear to use, based upon the internet ads and what has been shared here over the years. He actually tested me in tons of ways and some of the things he assessed I haven't seen done to anyone else on these boards over the years. In the end, he sat with me and a few computer touch screens and showed me exactly what he had found, examples of normal, and how my issues impacted me. It wasn't just dental either, he even discussed some lifestyle and diet things that needed to be addressed too. He never said he could 'fix' me. He offered me treatment and recommended other types of specialists/ practitioners I should add to my treatment team. I never felt he judged me on what I did. I couldn't afford everything he recommended. He did say something to me as I finished my first phase of treatment that will always stick with me. Something I've never seen on the internet. He stated that most dentists consider 30% improvement in TMJD symptoms a success. Really makes me wonder how often dentists/doctors view what a successful treatment the same as the patient does. I know I wouldn't have ever been happy if my symptoms only improved 30% and that was as good as it got.

I do highly agree that a team approach does make a difference. One of the things that helped me get relief from the severe ear pain that I had was some regular work with a PT. She was specially trained in manual therapy and did oral triggerpoint work. While TMJD isn't covered by insurance the muscular stuff was classified as myofascial pain and the related neck stuff as cervicalgia. It allowed me to afford the PT treatment. The gentle work over time was a blessing. The oral trigger point work on my masseters and pterygoids were extremely painful, think tears running down my face during it, but the relief afterwards made it well worth it. With the muscle issues addressed during my splint therapy, I think it helped me have much more success with the splints I wore during Phase I. I also did some ultrasound treatments and used short bursts of muscle relaxers during my most painful days. Sleep is important to healing and the muscle relaxers my ENT gave me helped on those really extremely painful ear days.

My TMJD manifested with ear symptoms first and worst. I found out that my discs had slipped (probably during a surgical intubation) throwing my bite off, which led to some serious bruxing which threw my bite off even more. With the discs slipped, my jaw ended up pushed back about 3 mm. That was enough to cause the serious ear pain, stuffiness, numbness and hearing loss. My opening was 45/46 on most visits. I have hypermobility issues though that contributed to my issues too. I was offered a choice of treatments. I ended up with a lower mandibular repositioning splint which brought my lower jaw forward that 3 mm and a bit to the right. Between the splint and the muscle work, my symptoms were improved by 3 months and probably 90% better by 6 months. In addition to all that, I also had an upper sleep splint that I wore at night. It was designed with a slanted wedge in the front which held my lower jaw in that forward position and prevented me from bruxing. Over time, I came to love it. I cried when I had to ditch it during phase 2. I now wear a modified version of that splint to help prevent me from developing those bad habits again.

I did have a Phase 2. I was offered a variety of choices after my splint therapy. I chose to stay in the repositioning splint and sleep splint until I was able to afford my Phase 2 treatment. I wanted something that I thought could preserve my teeth and health the longest. I ended up with self-ligating braces. They did a couple things. 1st, with the help of a ton of elastics, I was able to erupt all but one molar taller. This was important in re-establishing my bite because I'd ground them flat before I knew about the TMJD. 2nd, it widened my upper arch and made more room for my tongue. My arch wasn't that narrow, but I notice a ton of difference now. More room for the tongue and more symmetry to my face. 3rd, it re-established my bite in that 'forward' natural position. 4th, while I already had straight teeth, I had the added 'side effect' of ending up with a much nicer and more balanced smile. I hadn't realized how asymmetrical my physical face and facial muscles had gotten.

My symptoms started in early 2009 and I got the braces off a year ago. For me, all of this was a good choice. Most of the time, I forget about the TMJD. I still have to watch the muscular stuff because there really isn't a 'cure' for the TMJD, but my symptoms are well under control.

One thing that I was bummed about was that my awesome PT moved from the practice when I got the braces on. I haven't been able to find anyone that I like as well as her. I just switched insurance companies in October and called to make an appointment with a PT about an hour away who specializes in TMJD and neck issues. I had come across the practice in my internet searching and seen references about him on other chat boards. When I called the first week in October, they didn't even have a consultation appointment until December 12. I go to see him then and already scheduled visits through January. I'm really hoping he is a good solution to helping me with those myofascial issues. I had shoulder surgery last April and it really made my neck and then TMJD muscles unhappy. Not horribly, but since I know what to watch for I want to address the issues now. Keeping good thoughts that he will be a good person to add to my medical team for my on-going treatment needs.

This was kind of a rambling post, but I wanted both of you to know that there can be a light at the end of the tunnel, it just sometimes takes a long time to get there. I had days that got worse before better, but they gradually got better until one day I suddenly looked back and was amazed.

Wishing you both well.
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Last edited by MountainReader; 12-04-2014 at 11:56 PM.

 
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Old 12-05-2014, 08:39 AM   #9
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Re: NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

Hi Mountainreader,
Thank you for sharing you your story , it is great to hear positive stories from others , specially when starting a treatment like me. It is hard to find a good doctor and even if you find one, it may not work for everyone. 1 of the many TMJD dentists I saw told me I would need the Functional jaw ortho to widen my upper arch . , an other one said I wouldn't need. I do have a small upper arch,and it was never fixed when I was a child, even though I wore braces for 2 years. The braces that I worn 26 years ago are the reason why I am going through this TMJD now .back then, they had this idea that people had big teeth and small arch , they removed 4 molars to push my teeth back, and. I've heard from ALL TMJ specialist that, this is the reason why I am going through this problems now. I hope I'll be back here to share my successful treatment story like you did.
Al the best

 
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Old 12-09-2014, 11:02 AM   #10
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Re: NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

I think in general our teeth should come together in a "cusp-to-fossa" relationship only when we're upright. When we recline or look up or look down or lie on the side, there should be no contact that blocks normal jaw movement. If you have casts of your teeth done, you'll see groves and lines that seem to accommodate that. I've been studying this and experimenting with my own mouth and luckily I have my model from when I first got a bridge put in. (The best thing is to have the original model before the teeth were prepared but it is what it is now. And dentists are very quick to throw away anything that could prove they did a crappy job and keep it from patients.)

Edit:
I had to remove something because this board is very restrictive in terms of links to/mentioning of websites that offer facts or useful info, or even links to old threads on the very same board that may have relevant info to the question in the current thread.

Last edited by jpat08; 12-10-2014 at 03:46 PM. Reason: Administrator removed link to an old post

 
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Old 12-09-2014, 02:22 PM   #11
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Re: NM/GNM - LVI, ICCMO and GNM did not work for me.

Besides biting up and down and side to side, there's also protusive movement of the lower jaw, that is when you move your lower jaw forward. None of the TMJ or occlusion specialists or prosthodontists I saw ever checked the protusive movement. Just unbelievable. Like in my case, pretty much all of my natural teeth have extruded as a result of the jaw being misaligned from the poorly shaped bridge and adjustments done with me biting up in a reclined position, which is different from when I bite upright. Teeth that used to fit together properly in the right jaw alignment could not fit in the wrong alignment and have extruded. Now when I move my jaw forward, several of my back teeth bang on one another along the edge and it hurts and causes my jaw muscle to form a lump and twitch. I hold my old model in the same position and those teeth don't touch. You can try this for yourself and see if it happens to you.

Last edited by Administrator; 12-09-2014 at 03:19 PM.

 
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