This is a frustrating issue. I had my first vaccinated and my second recieved only the first round. By the time his second was due I had the worst gut feeling that it would be bad for him to say the least. So I went on the hunt.
I looked high and low and the research is there. There was one study done in a medical journal on the effects of vaccines and the corralation between everything from SIDS to autism. If you look at some of the vaccine boxes before they were required to change the process you'll note a chemical called thimerisol. I found out what it was....MERCURY!!!! I played it off and asked the nurse and she said there was no way that there would ever be mercury in a vaccine....IT'S DEADLY YA KNOW!!! Duh. Then I showed her the print out containing the definition of it from a medical journal, her face dropped!!
Now if they don't know, how is the public supposed to make an educated decision on what's best for there child. I can't list the exact sites or names of studies here, don't want troubles for breaking any rules.
But I researched for hours every day for almost a month before making my decision. The biggest factors....one study over seas stopped vaccinating kids until they were 18mos old and the death rate in children under 2 dropped almost 80%!!!! Can anyone explain why there's a correlation between the DTaP shot and the increased risk of SIDS in the first 3 days after the vaccine. Can someone tell my friend why she lost her daughter with in hours of her 3rd round when they're totally safe????
Why do you think the military is having probs with people who don't want the anthrax vaccine?? It's because they educated themselves and weighed what they felt were risks vs. benefit. For some, they still choose the vaccine, others opt against it. It's a personal choice....but if you look you will find the research.
Another interesting fact I found is that states do not legally mandate immunizations....but very few people know this because the info is not readily available. And the biggest reason is because if it is mandated as law, then the state is responsible for the possible bad out comes. If they make you think it's law and you don't question, you have no recourse because they'll say ultimately it was your decision.
I don't want to sway anyone either direction.....but I do feel the need to help people educate themselves on both sides and make the decision that best fits their situation.
Ifyou are noy aware, most if not all vaccines have removed the thimerosol that was in them. If this is what scares you, then you should request thimeroslo free vaccines. The mortality statistics on childhood diseases should definately frighten you.
There is no board policy prohibiting you from posting weblinks to study listings. You have made alot of statements of what you consider to be medical facts. Please back them up with concrete evidence that I can read. If this is for peoples information they should not take anybodies word that what they are saying is true. They should be able to see it in a well designed study, not some web site run by anybody with a computer.
I will have to check the sites first to make sure they don't have bulletin boards...I know that's one thing that prohibits listing, is there any more so I don't get in trouble?? I would love to provide the info..I believe people need to have all the info from both sides and choose from there.
As for the thimerisol, there is more out there than most know. It was prohibited in future production, but they did not require a recall of all the vaccinations on the shelf. I called the health department, several pediatricians and asked about the thimerisol..most didn't know what it was, so they grabbed the box and started reading...they swore they had the new batch, but there was still thimerisol.
My son more than likely will start his vaccinations at two years old, once the brain has formed the barrier that helps minimize reactions.
As far as concrete evidence, I don't believe it exists because every group has their own take on things and IMO have ways to tilt the scales a bit. That's why I searched sooo many places including the CDC website. I will check the ones I intitially checked and also make sure they're ok with the mods then would love to post them. And if possible have them put on a sticky. It may take me a couple days, but I will let you know what I find and if it's ok to post you'll see the link.
I'm also curious as to what seems to be a lot of hostility towards people who choose not to vaccinate or have doubts. I don't know if you're from the medical community or just not sure where to find all the info, but I assure you, most people who choose not to vaccinate do so only after researching it and speaking with their docs.
My ped worked at one of the top childrens hospitals and children were flown there from a tri-state area and she only saw 1-2 kids a month who contracted one of the illnesses "prevented" by vaccines and the rest were by kids who were vaccinated. My biggest problem is that people are lead to believe that their kids are 100% protected when even their own studies show otherwise.
I'm not exact on these number, but really close...about 80% of the cases of these diseases are fully vaccinated children....that makes me doubt the safety and validity of the vaccines.
I don't want to sway anyone either way, I just feel people shouldn't so blindly trust something just because it's been around for awhile. There's been many different cases of a "safe" medical treatment that turns out down the road to have been not safe at all.
arghhh...this makes me crazy...(i just need to vent here) i want to do the right thing for my baby ....one day i think i have, the next day i read something here then question what i felt the day before...i dont know what to do anymore....why cant the gov. just say if they are safe...and if they arent then get them safe....why does it have to be so hard to make a decision on vaccinations... i am calling my health dept. i want real answers (i know i know i probably wont get them ) but geez i have to do something i am losing it here!
(this wasnt meant toward anyone here i just needed to get that off my chest)
I agree with you Winnie, it makes me crazy too. You have the right idea contacting your health department. They will give you the information you need.
As far as listening to these boards keep something in mind. Anybody can say whatever they want, whether it is true or not, and they are not responsible for fact checking what they say. Most of the websites that people who are antivaccination point to are nothing more then opinions. Look at websites put up by professional organizations Like the CDC, National Institutes of health, Medscape, your state or county department of health. See how whenever a professional makes a statement, it is referenced to some study. The name of the study, and journal of its' origin is given so you can evaluate the quality of the statements. Now look at most of the antivaccination websites. They are mostly run by parents who think they have been wronged. Or paramedical people who have a financial stake in continuing the scare. If they reference anything it is usually someone elses opinions, not research. They will push books written by seemingly important proffesionals. However real medical researchers do not write books, they write journal articles. I have requested many times on this board for someone to provide me with some current research from a peer reviewed medical journal backing up what they say. No one has yet done it. I suggested on this thread that if you had a fear of mercury poisoning from vaccines, then just request that you be allowed to make sure that the vaccine is thimerosol free, as all vaccines except influenza areare now produced without the mercury. They have been making them thimerosol free for alomost 5 years, so the vast majority, if not all, of the vaccinations do not have mercury.
I can happily debate the fallacy's of the argument about mercury toxicity causing things like autism. Mercury poisoning is very easliy distinguished from autism to any medical practitioner who knows what to look for. However I have pointed out that this debate is a waste of time because the vaccines now do not contain thimerosol.
If that is your fear you can rest.
As far as any Doctor telling you a vaccine is 100% safe and 100% effective, you will never hear a Doctor say that. Just as you will never hear a doctor say that giving a child baby asprin is 100% safe. Medicine doesn't work that way. Anybody who says it does is misleading you.
Also the vaccine is not 100% effective. Tell me what medicine is! Studies show that the Measles vaccine is about 95% effective. The statistics that the poster above you gave are very misleading. It might be true that 80% of the people who get sick of childhood diseases in this country have been vaccinated. I don't believe this is true and I would want to know where the poster got this figure from...but let's just consider it as being true. Take a group of 1000 students exposed to measles. Out of those Consider 5 people come down with measles. And 4 out of those 5 people have been vaccinated(that is the 80% that the poster quoted). Vaccination rates in a school would be arround 99% because of the vaccine requirements. So out of those 1000 students, 990 of them were vaccinated and 10 were not. Now compare vaccinated to unvaccinated. 4 people who got sick were part of the 990 that were vaccinated. So 4 out of 990 is less than one half of one percent (.40%). Only one person that was unvaccinated got sick. But he is one of ten, so he represents 10% of the unvaccinated population. What this shows is that more people who got sick were vaccinated, but the rate of infection was 25X greater(.4% compared to 10%) in the unvaccinated population. So when antivaccination people say that more vaccinated people get sick than unvaccinated, they are being misleading, either intentionally, or because they are repeating something that they heard. Again I am open to differing views, please just address the objections that I make with evidence.
It took you 9 months and a child birth and the rest of your life of being a parent so do your own homework on research and rely on no one else. Mis information is worse than no information. Seek gov. sites then .edu sites then .org then autism groups and such forth don't limit yourself to one of any mentioned.
I whole heartedly agree on doing your own research. What is irritating however is the insistance that the only real proof is for the vaccinations. I did not look at just one site, nor did I just take someone's word on it. Some of the information came from my son's pediatrician!!!
She is the one who helped me research much of what I started on. There are so many ways you can go with it. As of yet I have not found a double blind study...so yes the info you get is usually going to be tilted in one way or the other, that's why you need to do a lot of research. Some of what I found were incidental findings....meaning they weren't looking for a specific correlation, however found one in the process.
As far as not responding to one of the above posters with medical facts I already said I would find the sites again and clear it with moderators...that is not a refusal on my behalf, as I have nothing to hide...and honestly don't care for what seems like the insinuation that I have misrepresented any information or am lying and refuse to back it up. This is a board for opinions and experiences and what makes it successful is giving many different views on issues at hand and allowing an individual to make the decision they feel is best.
I am curious however, why is it that it's so important to force an opinion on someone who is merely trying to share some info learned while trying to make an informed decision? It seems like some are threatened by the fact that someone can think outside of the medical community. Just for the record I believe in holistic and Western medicine. I don't think there's a black and white here...it's a personal choice and no one should be felt they have to make a certain decision because it's the popular one, they need to make an informed decision which means looking at all information involved.
As for the mom who is confused as to what to do.. I can relate. I had my first vaccinated and yes he's fine. My problem came when I was set to have my second child's second round of vaccinations and had that gut feeling mom's get that said something wasn't right. I spoke with his doctor and that's where the hunt begins. You need to do your own research and not just a couple of places...I researched site after site for almost 2 wks straight before making my decision. Let me know what you find and understand that there's probably going to be more fear involved because of what you learn. One of the things that got me was that my youngest was enrolled in a study to combine some vaccines and the info packet I was handed is something that is not given in general. The hardest part for me to swallow was that they could not ensure that the cow's that were used to create the vaccine were not from other countries or at risk for mad cow disease and such. Excuse me??? You can't tell me where the heck this stuff came from and you just put it in my kid????? Ask your pediatrician if they have the info...don't know if it is there and you just have to ask or if I just got it because of the study.
Good luck and you will make the right decision because it is your baby and your choice. Listen to the voice inside and you'll know what's right for you.
I am curious however, why is it that it's so important to force an opinion on someone who is merely trying to share some info learned while trying to make an informed decision? It seems like some are threatened by the fact that someone can think outside of the medical community.
First off I would like to say that I am not attacking you. If my posts have come off as any other way I apologize. What I am trying to do is separate assertions made by some people that are presented as fact, against those that have scientific validity through experimentation and research. Many of the antivaccination posters ( and I do not intend this as a condemnation of you) post statements as scientific fact. Most if not all of these statements are not backed up with any research or validity. But the frequency of these statements is enough to scare people. That is why I emplore people to research on sites that reference their statements. I know no matter what I say some people will refuse to change their minds. And that is their right. I only wish to educate those who are looking for answers.
As of yet I have not found a double blind study
This is probably true, but this does not make the other studies less accurate. A double blind study would entail using a group of children given a placebo instead of the real vaccine, and then following them around for years. No doctor would do this because the risk to these children for contracting the diseases would be too great. This would be an unethical study. What epidemiologists have done is look at populations where vaccine compliance has changed over time, and correlated that to rates of problems such as autism, SIDS, Asthma etc. What they have found is no correlation between rates of vaccination and incidence of problems (you can check this and look at the actuall studies at the links I previously suggested). This suggests that there is no causal relationship involved. Some of these studies involved hundreds of thousands of children.
Finally, I am asked why I should care. Everybody should care. Decreases in vaccination rates increases diseases in both vaccinated and unvaccinated children. The CDC did a study, and the conclusion of it was that for every 1%decrease of vaccination rates, there is an increase in risk rates of 60% to children that are vaccinated, and 600% for those who are not.
So, people that do not vaccinate their children put mine at greater risk.
Last edited by sailmaven36; 01-12-2004 at 07:25 AM.
First of all, I am not anti-vaccination, but I don't believe it's fair to leave the parents totally in the dark about the entire role of vaccines and problems that may arise from using them. I feel parents are black balled if they choose otherwise, and I also feel that many doctors turn a blind eye to possible reactions and blame it on anything other than a reaction to the vaccine.
I have a friend who lost her sister within hours of vaccinations....the only thing that ever changed...went into convulsions then a coma, then died. And another whose daughter is mentally retarded after a reaction. The docs REFUSED to even entertain the fact that they could have had an adverse reaction, so I don't think anyone will ever get the whole story, that's why I say they need to do their own research and make an educated decision as to what's best in their situation.
I found some of the sites and am going to e-mail the mods and then will post the ones I get the ok on. Other than that I can't say much because I don't want to break any rules, as I love this board...so I'll post what I can.
I do fully agree on using reputable web sites...I'm not sure on this...so don't quote me...I don't know because I looked at these almost 2 yrs ago, but don't remember seeing any studies where they deliberately didn't vaccinate children and watched to see what happened. Most of it I believe came from researching the numbers from hospitals, pediatricians, medical journals, and various other places to obtain the information. I am a very objective person, and while doing the research I admit that some of them sounded full of it to me..but that's not to say all of them are wrong. I am an intelligent person and having had several medical problems of my own I've had to do my own research to be my own advocate and learned that what is always written does not always tell the whole story.
To read all of the medical journals about my conditions you will NEVER find the ins and outs that I experience every day. The only way I found out what I was really going through was normal was on boards with other people who have it and are living with it in real life, not a text book. The text-books don't always give the full story as they don't always know when it's something they don't experience on a personal level. It's written from a clinical aspect, not always based in real life. Clinical views are only a portion of it.
sailmaven...let me just say...i love your posts....sometimes if it wasnt for you i dont think i would sleep at night!!! LOL and you are right so far no one has provided real concrete evidence....and the thermosol is my one real concern....i have not yet got to contact the health dept. but i plan too before her next vacc. but i know all the nurses who work there and they all have young children all who were vaccinated on time as babies and my feelings are ...they work around vaccines all day they know whats in them and they swear by them and while i was pregnant they always reminded me that when my baby was born to get her vaccinated on time...i feel that they would never vaccinate there children if they felt it was something that would harm them...and they say they do feel so strong about it because they see all the people who were not vaccinated with the diseases that could have easily been avoided (in most cases) with a vaccination....and thank you again sailmaven....keep up the good work
The point you make about medical people vaccinating their children is very important. You will not find many who don't.
A big belief in the antivaccination community is that the medical astablishment is in league with vaccine manufacturers in hiding the supposed "danger" of vaccines. This must assume that pediatricians are so evil as to not only poison your babies, but also poison their babies as well. It would be impossible for a pediatrician to miss this supposed "danger" if it happens as frequently as these people say. Pediatricians must do tens of thousands of vaccinations a year, they would see if there is a problem. Pediatrics is one of the lowest paid of the Medical specialties, most enter in to it because they love children. If they wanted money they would go into something like urology or radiology.
Furthermore a temporal association with vaccinations (meaning that some medical problem happened at some time after innoculation) does not mean that the vaccination caused the problem. Almost all children get colds within 36 hours of eating bread. Did the bread cause the cold? Of course not. Most of the disabilities blamed on vaccines become apparent around the time that vaccines are given because that is when development shows them to be evident. You have to delve further into the association to see if it is valid. Such as investigating if there is decreased frequency of Autism in populations that do not vaccinate. Studies show that there is no difference. So you cannot say there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism.
Last edited by sailmaven36; 01-13-2004 at 05:39 AM.
It is not an assumption that pediatricians are evil, there's a difference between evil, ignorant, misinformed, misled, etc.
There are many unknowns about so much, that doesn't mean if someone chooses something and they have a bad experience with it that they were evil, just didn't do all the looking on both sides of things.
i called my health dept. and my local hospital and on the vaccination bottles it says "preservative free" but on the brochures they are sent with the vacc. it says that there are trace amounts of thermosol (sp?) in the DtAP, hib, polio, and the flu vacc. but all the nurses i talked to said that it is very important to have my child vaccinated...they (again) said they vaccinated all their children (and that YES they are aware of the traces of thermosol in it) but they reasured me that it is such a minisule amount that they dont worry about it and neither should i but said when it comes to deadly diseases not to mess around...
sorry to double post but i have to add....sailmaven you said i wont find many health care pros who dont vaccinate their children...but you know i havent even found ONE who has not vaccinated their own children, so far all the pros i talked to do vaccinate and encourage others to do the same ....
and another thing you are right about ...we should care that others dont vaccinate because as you said it does put our children at higher risk...and in my state you still must vaccinate for school and some daycare centers as well, i am not sure i would want my child in a center or school where some children were not vaccinated...its just to dangerous
"and another thing you are right about ...we should care that others dont vaccinate because as you said it does put our children at higher risk...and in my state you still must vaccinate for school and some daycare centers as well, i am not sure i would want my child in a center or school where some children were not vaccinated...its just to dangerous"
Hey Winnie, If your kid is Vaccinated, then why would you worry about other kids who have not been vaccinated?????????????????????? Would you actually inject something into your child that doesn't work???? Why vac. if it doesn't work????? Why would you worry about your kid getting sick if your kid is 'vaccinated'????????? Isn't your kid supposed to be 'immune' if they had a vaccination????
Ok..where have I been? It's exciting to see so much debate. A couple of thoughts come to mind. I believe Angel mentioned (who posts things that help me sleep at night) such hostility towards we questioners, delayers, non-vaccinaters.....it hits me right in the heart. My baby is my life and my choices are not because I'm ignorant or anti-establishment. I have a full library of pro and con (cause it is hard to find neutral authors)..I have spent hours on the internet, hours with parents touched by this issue (before moving)..like I always keep saying. Some posts confirm my worst fears: you will not befriend me or my daughter because of my choice to wait (maybe 6 months, maybe 12, maybe indefinitely) I should move to a remote location, home-school my daughter and avoid social situations.
Another thought/question...how (cause I really do not know) does the medical community or health departments or the CDC explain the autism rise which I agree could ALMOST be a tragedy of the past. Better diagnostic techniques...genetics...video games..soda...MTV? I believe the first two hold alot of the answer. I'm not asking to belabor the autism issue but what's next???? There are more and more vaccines starting younger and younger with no end in sight and no guidelines to "retire" a vaccine when it has been successfully vaccinated for (perhaps polio falls into that) When will enough be enough? When will things like Rubella and Hepatitis B be reccommended for teens or college entrance instead of infants and toddlers? When will we really see that infant vaccination wanes even with boosters and maybe some diseases, which are more problematic in young adults, teens & adults be started at 5-7 yrs of age. When will it be admitted that some milder toddler/child diseases are now showing up in older groups where they are often more serious? (chickenpox could eventually join this group)
When do we look closer at who finances studies?
I have definitely learned that while I come here for support maybe like other moms that are in tears at the end of the day because of their choices either way I will do everything I can to no longer post anecdote, conjecture or opinion I will make an effort to put my money where my mouth is and cite reference or study.
Question..if I find something in a book with a reference can I cite author or reference??? I will check with mods too.
As far as the rise in Autism, No evidence has arisen to support vaccinations as the culprit. Numerous studies have been done comparing Autism rates in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. No difference was found. These studies have been repeated in many different countries, by many different researchers, and they all came to the same conclusion.
More recently in the British Medical JournalT he BMJ reports on an article from Pahrmacotherapy which looks at why the incidence of autism appears to have risen:
the number of children [in the United Kingdom] diagnosed with `behaviour' and `developmental' disorders, but not autism, tended to decrease by about 20% per year from 1992 to 2000. By contrast, the diagnosis of autism increased by 20% per year during this time period,
This suggests that what used to be loosley termed "developmental disorders" now falls within the Diagnosis for Autism.
Last edited by sailmaven36; 02-13-2004 at 08:36 PM.