posted 06-03-2003 01:05 AM            

OK, so we've ALL heard of the age old myth about chocolate and greasy foods, right? Well, did you notice how OLD those studies were? They were done back in the 1960s and 1970s and some of them were quite flawed. So zoom into the 2000s, and mabe a bit in the late 90s, and you will see the Acne-Food connection from an entirely DIFFERENT angle!

More recent studies out there connect increased Insulin levels to increased DHT, Testosterone, Androgen levels. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=10908163&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=11117667&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=10950157&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ uids=8854583&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=12396556&dopt=Abstract

That increased levels of IGF-1 and IGF -2 have been linked to those with acne and normal individuals that consume gluten. However, Celiac individuals tend to be defecient in IGF-1 when they DO consume gluten. This may be due to the fact that they are now capable of eating and digesting gluten-free grains/carbs that would increase their levels. IGF stands for Insulin-like Growth Factor and Celiacs are people who are genetically unable to digest & tolerate Gluten (wheat, barely, rye, etc) proteins. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ uids=7876991&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ uids=7608381&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ uids=9509072&dopt=Abstract

That various types of drugs (anti-androgen, insulin sensitizers, etc) and/or a low carbohydrate diet in a ratio similar to: 30% Carb, 45% Protein, & 25% Oils have been shown to reduce the 5-Alpha Reductase enzyme neccssary in converting Testosterone into DHT (super androgen). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=10856473&dopt=Abstract

That according to Eat Right 4 Your Type and the Protein Power Lifeplan, certain Lectin Proteins (ALL grains & Nightshades) and Gluten proteins ACT like Insuin Mimickers. Also, that the most prevalent Blood types, Type 0 and B, are most likely to have problems with Lectin and Gluten proteins, resulting in them more likely to be Insulin Resistant or Diabetic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=12409286&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=12519846&dopt=Abstract

Also, that certain antibiotics actually increase our levels of DHT, yet because of their anti-inflammatory actions (til you become resistant) still manage to help with existing acne. Maybe that's why some of us broke out horribly after we went off of them....we had more male hormone than what's "normal" for us =0 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=10708666&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=12083529&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=12566804&dopt=Abstract

Of course, what you've all been waiting for.... 13-Cis Retinoic Acid (isotretinion or... Accutane) reduces Insulin Sensitivity, acts as an anti-androgen on the sebaceous glands and ceases the conversion of testosterone into DHT!!!! Yes, Roche Laboratories knows all about this, but unfortunately, these are usually temporary effects lasting only during treatment. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=11747145&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ uids=9298137&dopt=Abstract

What does ALL of this mean to an acne sufferer? Well, what causes acne again? Oil, dead skin cells, and inflammation....is that what the defination is? OK and what causes our bodies to do the above??? Usually no matter what the culprit, is it NOT DUE TO HORMONES????? Before one scoffs and quickly dismisses the evidence, they should really learn the mechanisms of the way food & nutrients interact with the human body first. Thankfully, more scientists and doctors are starting to pay attention! Unfortunately, some of them did keep the "secret" to themselves....money money money???

This is all information I've gotten from various reputable places, including http://www.pubmed.gov and below are further articles that explain something that I found rather interesting. While I believe that everyone has varying degrees of sensitivity (foods, cosmetics,etc), which explains WHY different foods, or certain amounts, are aggrevating to some people and not others, maybe this will help more of you out. At the very least, it should dispel the latest "myth"(denial) that this is all psychosomatic or a placebo effect. Those of us who've actually gone the dietary route know better. Not to mention, it did other postive things for us that we certainly were NOT expecting. =)

More Abstracts: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ uids=9609208&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=12396556&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list _uids=12201826&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ uids=9609208&dopt=Abstract

Also, through my research on various hormonal disorders that can have acne as a symptom, defects in several of the Cytochrome P450s have repeatedly come up. CYP450s are genes that are responsible for various enzymes neccessary in the conversion or production of trans-retinoic acids, testosterone, cortisol, detoxification etc. http://drnelson.utmem.edu/P450lect.html Which once agains brings us back to a hormonal imbalance involving various organs, with the end result being some form of....Insulin Resistance ???I myself wasn't expecting to find some of the info that I did, so if I missed something, please contribute to it. Yet if that is the case, then ALL these years we have been Lied to! ALL this time, some of you have been paying $400 plus retail per month for Accutane! While the people that knew the truth, quickly ceased further research on this (see for yourself) because all ANY of us has ever needed to do was reduce our Grain, Carb, Sugar intake!

Sigh...there you have it. Outside of environmental causes, bad skincare or an allergy, I have not found any other reason as to why we get acne. Obviously it's a defect and it may indeed be on a CYP450 gene, but obviously not all of us have the same defect. So until we can figure out which gene and which defect it is for each of us, some of you that have "done it all", may want to try some other internal approach, such as detoxfying your liver or changing your diet.

posted 06-03-2003 01:33 AM            

I can work with that, after all if topical methods don't seem to be enough, sometimes all one needs is a round of accutane or a "maintenance dose" to increase insulin sensitivity. While other's go through 4 rounds of this stuff and they are still never "cured." Others of us have found great success in taking Birth Controls, Anti-Androgens, other Insulin Sensitizing Drugs and Anti-Inflammatories. Yet sometimes a pill is NOT enough! I myself and others were forced to utilize a combination of drugs and/or alternative treatments (herbs, vitamins, diet, etc), while others went the purely diet route.

So thenwhy is it that Accutane managed to cure some people when the results say that the effects last only during usage??? Perhaps it permanently shrank your sabaceous glands or maybe your hormonal levels finally balanced out (end of puberty). To sum up an article I read, nothing new by the way, from the Archives of Dermatology , it said that teenage acne, is due to natural Insulin Resistance. That when teenagers grow their tissues must become insulin resistance to do so. Therefore when one eats a high glycemic food, which is generally the staples of an American diet, it sends our bodies into a hormonal domino effect. The sugars shoots our Insulin levels up and increases our IGF-1 which increases testosterone in our system. This of course results in excess production of sebum, clogging our pores and triggering acne.

Lovely, isn't it?

Obviously, we don't all respond the same to our hormones. Some people's bodies do other things in response to the hormones that give us acne. Some people actually have NORMAL hormonal levels, but their receptors are extra sensitive to certain hormones. Whereas, some of us have HIGHER than normal hormones and/or extra sensitive receptors and our bodies respond accordingly. Perhaps that is why certain diets work better for certain cases. Indeed, that could be why people have gone on diets like a Low Fat diet (fat stores hormones) or a Low Carb - No Grain diet (increases insulin sensitivity) and found that their acne improved, if not cleared 100%! While others discovered that all they needed were some enzymes or liver cleanses and things were perfect for them. =)

I believe that acne can be due to a combination of Environmental(dioxin, toxins, dirty telephones, etc), External (bad skincare, haircare, etc), and/or Internal factors. For me personally, my formula was Environmental-5%, External-15%, and Internal-80%. Since this is already so long, I'll just go over one way you could go about discovering if yours is mainly internal:

1. If your problems persist, your BEST bet is to go to a doctor.
a. Think about what your symptoms are. Think about any other problems that you have (vision, dental, stomach, energy, wieght, headaches, muscular, etc), for sometimes these symptoms may be related to a specific disorder. Also look back on your famiy's history and see if they can recall any problems or specifc disorders. Do they have anything similar to what you have?

b. If you have some idea as to what the problem is than seeing a specialist, such as an Endocrinologist, Gastroenterologist, Allergist, or Naturopath would be to your advantage.

2. You need to find out if you have an allergy, intolerance, a hormonal imbalance, or some nutrient defiency by having the appropriate tests run. Sometimes the tiniest thing really can make that much of a difference.

3. Based on those results you'll be prescribed maybe Accutane, Birth Control, an Anti-Androgen, or some other specific drug. Or maybe you'll be advised to take a certain vitamin or to change your diet.

4. There's usually more than one way to treat a problem, so if the above fails, you should try a different doctor, formulation or technique.
a. Many vitamins and supplements "cure" acne, but which ones are right one for you?

b. The same should be asked of herbs. These have medicinal properties and as such, you should pick an herb that will do what you need it to do, based on your [u]specific[/u] internal problem. For example, find an herb that has the same suggested use as the prescription drug your doctor put you on and see if it will help or if you can replace the drug with it.

c. Diet (headache anyone?) There are between 30 - 50 special diets out there and if we included our own unique diets, the list would be even longer. NOT all of these are designed to cure acne, but SOME of them have proven to be far more successful than anything else! Once again this is very much so depends on how YOUR body works, what it needs, and what your specific internal problem is. The most successful diets that I'm aware of are:

Non-Processed/Refined Diet-- General Health, Insulin-Hormonal Imbalance

Organic/Whole Foods Diet--General Health, Allergies, Intolerances, Toxin/Chemical/Hormone Sensitivities

Vegetarian/Vegan Diet--General Health, Intolerances, Toxin/Chemical/Hormone Sensitivities

Low Fat Diet- General Health, Toxin/Chemical/Hormone Sensitivities

Low Carbohydrate/Sugar Diet--General Health, Allergies, Intolerance, Autoimmune Disease, Insulin-Hormonal imbalance

Mucous Free Diet-- Intolerance, Autoimmune Disease, Insulin-Hormonal imbalance

Gluten-Free Diet--Allergies, Intolerance, Autoimmune Disease, Neurological problems, Insulin-Hormonal imbalance

No Grain Diet-- Allergies, Intolerance, Autoimmune Disease, Neurological problems, Insulin-Hormonal imbalance

Paleolithic Diet--General Health, Allergies, Intolerance, Autoimmune Disease, Insulin-Hormonal imbalance, Neurological Problems, Toxin/Chemical/Hormone Sensitivities

"Evil" Lectin Free Diet--Intolerance, Autoimmune Disease, Neurological problems, Insulin-Hormonal imbalance

Elimination Diet--(Ex: Wheat, Diary, Iodine, Spicy Foods, MSG, Pork, etc) Allergies, Intolerance, Autoimmune Disease, Toxin/Chemical/Hormone Sensitivities

These are just generalized catagories, but there are PLENTY of books or websites, that use the above in some sort of dietary program. You just have to figure out which applies to you and what program fits your lifestyle and is the [u]most effective[/u] for you. Yes, sometimes that does requres a bit of "trial and error", so just because one diet didn't work for you, it doesn't mean that NONE of them will.

5. Are there any specific foods or drinks you find that you consume the most?
6. Are you drinking enough water to flush toxins, hydrate, increase energy?
7. Are you getting enough sleep to decrease stress, balance hormones, improve healing?
8. Are you exercising to improve circulation, decrease stress, regulate hormones, etc?

9. Have you tried other alternative methods such as
a. Therapy--Counseling, EFT, Hypnotherapy
b. Detoxing--Colon Cleanses, Fasting, Parasite Cleanses, etc
c. Eastern Medicine-- Accupuncture, Ayurveda, etc

Sorry this was so long, but I hope I helped someone

posted 06-03-2003 08:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonesy:
is there any chance you could condense that down.

---

Acne is related to hormones. Diet affects your hormones.

posted 06-03-2003 02:30 PM            

LOL, I understand about my post being long and a teeny bit scientific, but I needed proof to back up what I'm saying. Otherwise, how many of you would believe me? How many of you would still be dismissing the whole concept? Granted I KNOW that some of you WILL still dismiss this, but you can no longer say that you weren't aware of the truth.

I'm studying biology and it's absolutely fascinating to hear about all these different hormones, proteins, and all the different pathways, but I'm not too found of big technical words either, so this is the way my brain sees the above problem:

You eat something, lets say a SANDWHICH (meat, vegetables, grain bread), and it enters your digestive system where it's broken down. Now, depending on it's glycemic value, a certain amount of glucose will be available for your body's energy needs. This prescence of glucose will cause your pancreas to produce insulin to enhance glucose utilization and sometimes it will be a HUGE amount of insulin! Now, if your body (cells, tissues) doesn't need the insulin, it will be converted into glycogen and fat for storage in your liver, skeletal muscle, adipose tissue, and skin.

Now, if your liver can NOT store the glycogen & fat and your cells & tissues will not accept the glucose then you have a problem. This is known as Insulin Resistance, which can later lead to Type I Diabetes (don't make enough or ANY insulin), Type II Diabetes (unable to use the insulin you do make), Heart Disease (due to high LDL cholesterol levels, free fatty acids), Hypertension, Dyslipidemia (lipid imbalance in blood stream), Obesity etc. all prevalant in most Western societies. So anyway, IR occurs because your cells are either too full of glucose or they don't RECOGNIZE the insulin you do have. As a result, you not only have all this extra insulin, but glucose, free fatty acids & amino acids floating around in your blood stream with no where to go....

Now, some of us do not have the same gene defects (read middle of article on CYP450 for specifics). Therefore the PATHWAY to this next part, is different for all of us depending on what our defect, or in other words, hormonal disorder is. Examples of hormonal disorders with acne as a symptom are Hypothyroidism, Hyperadrenalism, Insulin Resistance, Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS)-Syndrome X, Hyperandrogenism, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH), Hypercortisolism - Cushings Syndrome, etc.

So depending on the pathway, this extra or free insulin is going to cause your Adrenal Glands and Ovaries OR Testes to produce Steriod Hormones. I'm not going to list them all for you, listed some of them on various posts ;-) but these hormones in excess or in deficiency create your...hormonal imbalance.

Obviously if it's in excess you know why you have the problem, but what about if you are deficient in a hormone (vitamin, enzyme, etc) right? What happens is that your body is looking for this hormone and if it can't find it, and is capable of making it, will produce MORE. At least it thinks it's producing more, but sometimes it's unable to produce the hormone and as a result, OTHER hormones get overproduced in the process.

The same thing applies to IR, if your cells don't recognize the presence of insulin, then your body keeps making more insulin, "thinking" that you don't have enough in your system. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how much your body produces or tries to produce of a hormone, because there is a problem in the pathway that makes this mechanism work perfectly. Therefore, until the defective pathway is FIXED, the viscious cycle will continue...or get worse (burnout, tumors, cancer).

A possible side effect to this would be testosterone conversion into DHT (super androgen) in your blood stream and in your sebaceous glands & hair follicles. Which would increase your production of sebum, skin cell proliferation, inflammation, etc. and that's how some of us get acne.

Any questions? ;-)

Of course if someone can explain it better PLEASE do so. Otherwise, that explains the diet connection. If you choose to change your diet, the goal is NOT to eliminate ALL forms of sugar. It's impossible to eliminate all forms of sugar anyway, but you only want to permantly avoid enough to get your hormones in balance again.

Yes, there are various precription drugs that will balance your hormones, but they are not always effective and some even suggest dietary changes along with them. In fact, it's better to change your diet and take less medicine, then it is to take the medicine alone, at least that's what I personally discovered and I'm sure there are studies out there that prove this. Of course, there are those that are clear 100% through alternative treatments alone, like diet or liver detoxes. =)

posted 06-03-2003 06:11 PM            

Some of the stuff I do:

-low-carb
-limit sugars
-detox once a month (herbal/botanical pills)
-drink a gallon of water a day
-wipe my phones down religously
-no junky food, soda, candy
-hands off my face- no picking (minimal)

and the list goes on...

....and I'm now on Accutane because I still looked terrible. When monitored correctly, it is very effective.

But I do agree that the whole derm/pharmaceutical/research thing can be pretty shady...

posted 06-03-2003 07:04 PM            

i was excited to try it because i had never thought much about how my diet could be giving me my acne. so i gave it a try, and holy shiznit, it worked. I started drinking around 20 glasses of water a day (i was obsessed), and cut out ALL sugary foods out of my diet, cost most of the grains out (your body needs SOME grains), and started eating other healthy foods in general. I also FORCED myself to stop picking. It was hard, but it can be done. It was a miracle for my face. aside from red marks from pimples past, which will go away with time, i do not have a single pimple on my face!

posted 06-03-2003 08:27 PM            

That is only for men, though.

Insulin resistance as a cause of acne makes sense, since nearly everyone has insulin resistance during puberty, which is also the time when nearly everyone experiences acne. Here's the link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11600557&dopt=Abstract

posted 06-03-2003 09:00 PM            

(http://www.medboo.com/eng/message/1021212257.htm)

posted 06-03-2003 09:02 PM            

For those that are confused about Carbohydrates, here ya go:
SIMPLE CARBOHYDRATES -
Glucose (dextrose): also refined/processed foods, Galactose, Fructose (fruit sugar), Maltose (malt sugar), Sucrose (table sugar = sugar cane & beet sugar), & Lactose (milk sugar)

COMPLEX CARBOHYDRATES -
Glycogen - stored glucose
Starch plant glucose from Vegetables, Whole Grains, & Legumes.
Fiber - soluble & insoluble from Fruits, Vegetables, Legumes, and Whole Grains .

Yet, right now there is an unofficial debate going on and it has to deal with low carbing and whether you should follow the No Grains route vs. following the Glycemic Index. On some low carb diets, you are allowed to eat those that contain Fiber. This is because fiber helps balance insulin levels such that these foods are actually supposed to offset any increases in insulin.

To further suggest this, I came across an article that said we should eat something more along the lines of: 15% unrefined fat, 15% unrefined protein, & 70% unrefined carbohydrates. Sadly enough, depending on your goal and sensitivity level, continually consuming some of these foods doesn't work for everyone. So unfortunately, I really don't know the "correct" answer, but I bet if we had some dietary clinical trials, we could find out ;-)

Since that may not happen anytime soon, you can always try eliminating the grains. What complex carbs are you eating? What grains are you eating besides oatmeal? Yet, since you are a body builder, I understand how hard it is to keep wieght on when you eliminate grains, especially when you don't eat enough to replace them, so maybe you can try going Gluten Free (GF). To test either of these out, you just need to avoid eating them 100% for 2 - 4 weeks. You may not clear immediately though, so the longer you avoid them, the better a chance you are giving yourself of finding out if they could be your culprit.

In fact, I know of some body builders that managed to improve their acne either through GF diet or a traditional low carb diet by utilizing protein & oils to offset the insulin spikes. I believe it's something like, eating your protein first and then eating your carbs & oils together.

Indeed there MAY be a trade off here with diet, 100% clear or 90% & the wieght you want to be. If you don't want medicine, maybe some other supplements might help if this doesn't.

HTH

[This message has been edited by SweetJade1 (edited 06-03-2003).]

posted 06-03-2003 09:28 PM            

What I'll do is that I will keep eating my oatmeal for one more week and I will not drink this coming weekend. If my current breakout gets worse then it probably is related to grain consumption. I will let you know what will happen in a week. Ok? I will post my reply in this thread in a week's time. Wish me luck.

posted 06-03-2003 10:31 PM            

Boardguy,
LOL, yeah isn't it cool ;-) Actually sat. fats are supposed to be bad, yet certain ones are healthier. Anyway, what I think that might show is why fish oils, olive oils, grapeseed oils may be good for us. Did you ever read the posts where some people's skin improved from fish oils? In fact, Essential Fatty Acids (EFAs) was the #1 supplement in some acne book I bought too. They increase our prostaglandins (regulats hormones) and it could also do with their ablity to be anti-inflammatory.

posted 06-03-2003 10:40 PM            

Unfortunately some people do break out from detoxing. It could depend on how toxic your body is or what type of formula you chose. The fact that you broke out badly during your detox considering that you were constipated doesn't surprise me. I've bumped into others with acne who noticed that they too were constipated or had stomach problems and were having a SINGLE bowel movement every 2 - 7 days.

For everyone, NEWSFLASH: On average, we should all have one 2 - 3x a DAY! ;-)

It's interesting that you never mentioned this to your doctor. I guess that's because you thought it was "normal", right? Well, some acne suffers did go to their doctors and were prescribed medicine that made them "regular" and as a result, this improved their skin. In case you are wondering these supplements have also helped to keep one regular: probiotics, fish oil, and fiber. Whereas, others decided to go the herbal supplement (burdock, milk thistle, etc) route or to do periodic detoxes to cleanse the body.

Say, have you ever gone to an endocrinologist about your acne? I remember when mine told me to take Avandia and said that it would be to my advantage to also low carb. Since I wasn't a diabetic and I wasn't overwieght, quite the opposite, I couldn't figure out why low carbing would apply to me. I figured that by taking the avandia I would deal with any insulin issues I had....WRONG! Changing my diet, while I did lose 5lbs, was much more effective for me than taking that medication.

9 months ago, my lifestyle was the same as yours, yet I was avoiding soda and eating less and less candy as I got older. It wasn't enough, and until I greatly reduced my grain intake (BULK of my past diet), which is how I ended up dropping the majority of "fast food" etc, I never saw the correlation in myself. So definately fruits, vegetables and eating "healthy" will be good for you. =)

posted 06-04-2003 01:34 PM            

I believe it is well documented that when you break down muscle (due to very heavy weight training) and your body goes into repair mode, your body produces much more testosterone/DHT to build stronger muscles and gain size. I have read that people who take prescription drugs that blunt the DHT production have a very hard time gaining muscle size because testosterone is necessary for the anabolic increases.

I personally have noticed that when I stop weight training my acne seems to go away or at least is much reduced. The moment I begin HEAVY lifting again, within 3-4 days the acne will return. I also notice that it comes and goes in cycles during my training periods.

So for guys like us who are trying to get big and put on lean muscle mass, then I don't see any other choice than to suffer with the acne. I have been using Differin Gel at night for a very long time along with Azelex 20% in the morning, and it usually can keep the acne under control and to within just the forehead area. But there can be times when I get some bad breakouts, particularly after a few days of hard heavy training.

posted 06-04-2003 03:19 PM            

That's not to say that for those of us who just exercise, we are going to breakout. I know some do, but I've NEVER broken out from exercising even before I started my search for an internal treatment. While you do up your steriod hormone levels, exercising also decreases your cells Insulin Resistance. Hence why they tell Diabetics, etc to exercise. Another way to decrease IR is to get more sleep! ;-)

Acneman,
you say that you know diary breaks you out, right? Well I hate to say this but do you think that Whey might also effect you in this area? I know it's supposed to have the highest biological value, but is there another protein source that you can handle?

posted 06-04-2003 03:22 PM            

Jonesy and Mandilyn,
I don't have time now but I'll let you know what my diet is like later ;-)

posted 06-04-2003 05:41 PM            

My nutrition (and exercise) standards are almost obsessively rigid, people say. At least in my case, unfortunately diet isn't enough to help my face. The derm actually took one look at me and said "oh my God, we have to get this under control- NOW!" And he wasn't just pushing the Accutane, he was being truthful- my acne was extremely severe.

I still get stares and stuff, but the swelling is way down and the pain is gone, thank goodness. It got to the point where I couldn't wash my face without bad pain. That improvement in itself has me inspired to get through this and be done!

Anyway! Now I am rambling. I REALLY admire the time you put into this research. What a great tool for everyone to try- I know it certainly works for some. Why not me?!!

posted 06-04-2003 07:10 PM            

Do you eat dairy products? As you may know, in bodybuilding casein protein is very important before bed (milk, cottage cheese, etc). In my case, any dairy would break me out pretty badly so I just stopped eating dairy. See if you stop your dairy consumption maybe it will improve your acne. Also, remember that whey protein is dairy so limit your whey consumption, I only take 2 scoops of Opt. Nutrition 100% Whey Protein a day. Also, another thing, how much you weigh and how much protein are you eating? I've heard that excess of protein can aggravate acne. For instance, I weigh 175 lbs and eat about 190 g of protein max. As you know, only 1-1.5 g of protein per bw is necessary to build muscle. Also, eat only about 30 g of protein everytime you eat your meals, anything more will just be a waste. My acne is moderate. Let me know.

SweetJade1

posted 06-04-2003 09:13 PM            

Even then, the longer a problem goes untreated the HARDER it is to treat. Sometimes you will need medication for a STRONG kick and then you can taper off and/or switch to alternative treatments. Accutane is an Insulin Sensitizer and a Anti-Androgen, so it's about as good as any other drug out here that you've heard us rave about. Infact, it's supposed to have an 80% success rate, but I wonder how many of them were strictly Puberty cases.

I never took this route because I was afraid of the side effects. Years later, I learned that some people needed more than one treatment (sometimes 4x and no luck) or required a maintance dose. That right there sounds very much like what the roche article said, that the anti-androgen effects will only last DURING treatment. So for everyone this is NOT a one time drug, and now we can perhaps see why. In terms of other forms of the SAME hormonal therapy, accutane is just too expensive.

My former derm nor any of my doctors ever pushed me toward it, instead some decided to help me figure out what was wrong internally. That was a decade in the making, but FINALLY 2 years ago I got my answer. I have PCOS or Insulin Resistance! Since I don't really meet the PCOS syndrome "symptoms" I usually just tell people that I'm Insulin Resistant if they wonder why I'm not eating bread ;-)

So, up until 2 days ago, I didn't even KNOW why accutane worked. Did you??? In fact I don't think anyone knew, because no one around here has ever mentioned this. While I think that side effects aren't so good, I now have a different form of respect for this drug. It would be great if they would do more studies on this in terms of the IR aspect. The few (2 or 3) studies I found, connected Accutane to those that were Insulin Resistant or Diabetic. I think those individuals were IR or Diabetic to begin with and accutane had NOTHING to do with causing (might have made it worse though)it. I mean, that's the reason that accutane works to begin with, by increasing one's insulin sensitivity.

So you are doing the EXACT same thing as everyone else on this board. Only interms of cost, if you don't have insurance, Accutane is the most expensive treatment, isn't it? How much do you pay? Then Next would be Avandia. I turn 23 in August and I will be paying for my own insurance and I wouldn't be able to afford this monthly, so that's another reason I'm GLAD diet helped me. I've also been on Spiro for the past 5 years and this is something that I can afford, but would LOVE to find an alternative (there's saw palmetto) so that I can be "all natural" LOL.

So anyway, what other hormone balancing drugs have you tried? BC, Spironolactone, Avandia (treats insulin resistance), Metaformin, Flutamide, etc? Did you ever go to an endocrinologist to have your hormone levels thoroughly checked out?

posted 06-05-2003 12:53 AM            

So I'm glad you mentioned ALA because that's something that others have noticed improvements from taking. They notice that their brains aren't as foggy and their skin is clearer and once they stop taking ALA, the fog and breakouts return. I actually started on this and stopped. I'm not a big supplement fan, but I'm willing to take the MINIMUM amount neccessary for my skin and health =)

Also, that's interesting about how it worked with your cycles. I noticed that when I was taking Avandia, it was like I was taking BC pills. My skin improved by maybe 10% more while on it, but I was still very regular. I've always been regular actually, but I've had horrible cramps since my cycle first began and Avandia lessened the pain =) Other women noticed that they actually had a cycle when taking Avandia and were able to concieve too. So when I changed my diet I certainly wasn't expecting to have my terrible menstrual cramps permantly gone!!! That right there, is how I know that this isn't a placebo effect ;-)

posted 06-05-2003 02:49 PM            

Other important info:
Eicosanoids are the most powerful hormones in your body. They control every cell, every organ, and every system. You want a balance of good eicosanoids and bad eicosanoids. The bottom line is that you want more good eicosanoids than bad eicosanoids. The balance of eicosanoids is destroyed from an overproduction of insulin. This is why you want to maintain your insulin level relatively constant. Otherwise, your hormones become imbalanced.

The carbohydrates we eat are the main stimulus for the release of insulin, and dietary protein stimulates the release of glucagon. The high carbohydrate diet that is so widely recommended upsets our balance of insulin and glucagon, which as we've learnt can lead to many conditions that increase our risk of heart disease. To restore this balance we need to restrict the total amount of carbohydrate in our diet and eat regular small meals that contain some lean protein. The best way to achieve this is to replace dense carbohydrates, like bread and rice and pasta, with fruits and high fibre vegetables.

Many fish, especially oily varieties, contain certain omega 3 fatty acids improve insulin sensitivity and counteract the affect of insulin on our production of eicosanoids. And saturated fat promotes insulin resistance, a condition that results in the increased production of insulin. These are undoubtedly major reasons why eating more fish and less saturated fat is repeatedly shown to reduce the risk of a number of conditions, including heart disease.

Athletes have used fish oil for several years with good results. The main functions of fish oil on performance are:
* The viscosity of the blood decreases, i.e. the blood will be more fluent. The result is better blood circulation and transport of oxygen to the muscles during exercise.
* The blood vessels expand, which further enhances the transport of oxygen.

Fish oil can enhance muscle growth through these functions:

* Anticatabolic properties. Not yet completely understood.
* The production of the catabolic prostaglandin E2 decreases.
* The production of the catabolic interleukin IL-1 decreases.
* The production of the anabolic prostaglandin E1 increases, which increases the production of growth hormone.
* Better insulin sensitivity.

A lot of this info is actually in an anti-aging book I was reading and was not even about the topic of acne, so it was pretty interesting seeing the relations and putting 2 & 2 together.

posted 06-09-2003 01:46 PM            

I'm pretty sure that I'm ok with dairy because I've stopped training before and still consumed dairy (cottage cheese) and didn't have any major breakouts.

You're absolutely right that slow absorption protein is _essential_ for maintaining muscle mass over periods of not eating (i.e. bedtime), and even during the day. Right now I've made tremendous gains using pure Micellar Casein, even though I still eat cottage cheese. I don't know if micellar casein has the dairy compounds in it that might cause allergic reactions, I suspect it probably does. (I stay away from milk, too much sugar for me, it tends to smooth me out). Generally my protein intake is 40g hydrolyzed whey fractions directly after a workout, micellar casein before bed and sometimes in the morning. Then throughout the day during meals I'll take in various things like egg whites, cottage cheese, lean chicken, whey protein isolate shake, black beans, etc. I usually do 6-7 small meals a day, and take in some small amount of protein during each meal. And of course take in EFA's from flax oil, fish oil caps, and walnuts. Then stick to low-GI carbs like beans, oatbran, veggies, salad, brown rice, sweet potato. Then I'll usually take in a multi-vitamin, an L-Glutamine supplement, and a creatine supplement (so I can put in all my effort into my workout).

Right now I'm almost entirely clear as far as acne goes, although there are some spots from past breakouts. But I just did a very heavy leg workout on Saturday morning, so I figure in about 2 days I'll start to see the acne again.

As far as my stats, I'm about 170 with about 9% bodyfat. I'm in a bulking cycle right now, but I want to keep my bodyfat under 10% to 12% if I can.

posted 06-10-2003 08:44 PM            

THE GLUTEN FREE or Low Grain diet (if you don't replace the grains)---
OK, below is a generic version of 1 of several dietary suggestions. This is the diet that has gotten me to 99%+ clarity (spiro too) and others at 95% - 100% clarity w/o medications! I posted this back in Janurary actually and later I'll include others such as the lectin, paleo, low carb, SCD, etc:

First of all GF is short for Gluten-Free ;-) I don't want to overwhelm you with all the specifics, but if you find that avoiding the MAIN ingredients works, than avoiding Gluten derivatives, should do even more for you. I do avoid quite a bit of food, but it's not because it's fried or Processed, or anything, it's just because I know it has Gluten. Like I said on the other post, I try to avoid certain preservatives, and eat organic when posssible, but start at your own pace. That alone didn't do it for me, but these could ALL Be VALID reasons for you.

(Got a Printer?)

I AVOID the Following:
GLUTEN ;-)
Barley
Rye
Triticale
Kamut
Spelt
Wheat (lots of different kinds...semolina, wheat berries, durum)
[Sprouted Wheat, its deglutinized but can harbor bacteria]

(there's more, but usually found in healthfood stores)

Any foods made from the above -
Bread, Pizza, Pasta, Cereal, Cookies, Cake, Batter dipped foods, Pancakes, Egg Rolls, Flour Tortillas, Soy sauce, Certain Gravies/Sauces, etc

(these below don't have gluten, but are troublesome lectins)
Raw Tomatos
Peanuts
Cashews

------------------------------------------------------

I EAT the Following:
Water (90% of the time)
100% Fruit Juice
Tea, rarely coffee (usually decaffinated)
All Dairy (organic Milk and sometimes organic yogurt)
Meats, Fish, Poultry
Most Nuts, except peanuts and cashew (legumes)
Most Vegetables (no raw tomatoes)
Some beans (string beans, pork & beans, chili beans)
Fruits (temp. avoiding bananas)
Dried Fruits (my candy substitute)

GF GRAINS: Corn, White Rice, Brown Rice, Oats, Sesame, Potato, Arrowroot, Amaranth, Quinoa, Buckwheat, Montina, and there's more (usually found in healthfood stores)

GF Cereals (regular grocery store brands have some)
GF Soups (regular grocery store brands have some)
GF TV Dinners (rare...usually the derivatives are the problem)
GF Pastas (made from Corn, Rice, Qunia, Buckwheat, Soy, Potato, or etc...)
GF Cookies
GF Muffins
GF Breads (still haven't found my perfect bread yet..)
GF Soy Sauce (it's really good)
Salsa, Spaghetti sauce
Corn Tortillas,Tacos,taquitos,chips,
Fries
Salads
Fried Chicken (no batter)
Rice Cakes
GF Granola Bars
Ice Cream

This list can go on. There's a group of people known as Celiacs (the name of their disease) and they MUST follow this diet (some noticed their skin cleared too). As a result, over the years they have perfected recipes for OREO COOKIES, Stuffing, Pizza. practically anything, even Chicken Nuggets! They nor I, and others, are deprived. =)

The only downside to this is that you would have to cook most of your food from scratch or from a GF Mix. It's cheaper and it usually tastes better. However, if budget isn't a problem, then you can buy some of the Ready Made Gluten Free or Wheat Free Meals, cereals, cookies, breads, etc. Some companies, make really great tasting products (some don't).

Of course, there are lists available that tell you what Ingredients are safe and which arent, along with what Food Brands at your Local Grocery store, carry GF Items so that you don't have to read the ingredient labels. Campbells and Hormel make some of them. If in doubt, sometimes they list the allergen in Bold or there's even a note at the bottom. Of course, you dont have to go this far (I do), unless it works for you. Then you'll want to avoid as much gluten and it's derivatives as possible. Hmm, you want to know what a Gluten derivative is, right?

Starch
Malt
Flour
Vinegar
Alcohol
Protein
Gluten (corn gluten is safe)
(there's lots more- search for a list)

These can be made from MOST grains, so which grain did the company use? Usually the company will specify the grain or give you more information so that you can make the right choice. Such as, Distilled Vinegar, Malt Vinegar, or Red Wine Vinegar. When in doubt, I avoid it, unless I really want it and there's no other GF ingredients in the product. You can also weigh the "risk" based on how it's used in the ingredients, is it in a sauce or just at the bottom of the ingredient list. My breakouts decreased further, the more I avoided the derivatives.

Now that I've thoroughly overwhelmed you, remember go slow, you can just let this info sit in the back of your head. I did NOT jump into this, I thought about it for a month, planned what I was going to eat, and then slowly proceeded. Hey, I'm a college student so my meals aren't balanced. I eat whats available in my house and is GF. I grab fast food (salad or tacos usually), grab fruit, nuts, etc. I buy canned food still and I also occasionally buy prepared & packaged GF foods from Sun Harvest (Whole foods, etc) or directly from the company, so I know which brands are worth it and arent. About half of them even offer Sampler Packs so that you can test out different GF foods, that's how I did it. Some GF brands are just as affordable as the "normal" food and can even taste Better ;-)

Therefore, I've eliminates half the carbs, some of which are troublesome for those with Allergies/Intolerances and my skin is happy. I crave less sugar, eat far less sugary stuff, but I still get plenty of it in my diet.

Vegetables, fruits, some beans, rice, corn, and a few other safe grains all still provide me with carbs. IT's sorta the easy -hard way to avoid carbs. Hard as in, Gluten/Wheat is in 90% of food (homemade, or fast food). Easy, because all you've gotta do is mainly avoid Wheat, barley, and rye (there's a few more) and you are all set ;-)

IMPORTANT NOTE: I also a take a fiber supplement because I eliminated my main source of fiber (whole grains). Also, it could be because I don't eat enough acceptable grains or enough vegetables, so until I up my veggie intake, I MUST do this. See I am still a work in progress =P

Well, I hope I helped ease some of your fears and questions about my diet and if not, let me know. =)

posted 06-14-2003 11:39 PM            

I would like to state that no I am NOT a Diabetic Type I or II. I do not have high cholesterol levels or high blood pressure. I am not obese, but actually underweight. Basically I don't fit the Mold, but yes, these treatments, some MUCH more than others, have worked for me.

Like I've mentioned in a few other posts, Insulin Resistance is something that we ALL go through during Puberty and then it goes away. It is a temporary part of our hormonal imbalance. Unfortunately for some of us, it can occur while in the womb or all the way into adulthood. As a result other hormonal problems occur, such as Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS), Diabetes, Heart Disease, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH or NCCAH), Obesity, Hirsutism, Hyperandrogenism, Hypothyrodism, etc.

Now, I'm not really sure if ALL hormonal disorders are related to this mechanism but the various defects that have acne as a symptom, keep going back to the same gene (cyp450). It's job is to make the enzymes neccessary in controlling our hormones, detoxification, etc. Infact, some of the treatments below, depending on your hormonal disorder, are a result of our body's being deficient in a certain enzyme.

That is why I URGE you ALL to see a doctor, a specialist even! If one of them ignores you, then TRY AGAIN and AGAIN!!! Over a 10 year time span, it took me THREE tries with an Endocrinologist before I got diagnosed and more importantly the neccessary prescriptions (spiro only now). However, there are various herbs and vitamins, and other supplements that can do the SAME job as the medications or diet would do. They all are going to either:

-balance your insulin levels which will balance your androgen levels OR

-they will balance your cortisol levels which will balance your androgen levels OR

-they will reduce your androgen levels, OR

-they are going to inhibit the effects of androgen in your system (sebaceous glands) OR

-they are going to prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT (super androgen)

The list goes on depending on the disorder, but did anyone notice the key here is ANDROGEN? Thankfully there's several ways you can go about dealing with this hormone. While, I do not claim that diet will help EVERYONE, what I do know is that it has helped me and others that had tried a great deal of things, natural supplements, medications and I believe that we are really lucky as a result. We might be able to stop something worse from happening (fingers crossed).

Now, from various reputable sources, doctors, and testimonies, I've found that the most popular PRESCRIPTIONS among women are:

Birth Control (regular bc - balances hormones, lowers testosterone)

Yasmin BC - (see above & has a progestin [synthetic progesterone known as Drospirenone]

Diane BC - (see above & has Cyproterone to block effects of androgen)

Spironolactone (diuertic for high blood pressure, DHT conversion inhibitor, inhibits the effects of testosterone, anti-androgen)

Flutamide (antiandrogen)

Prednisone (anti-inflammatory, corticosteriod that improves cortisol balance)

Dexamethasone (anti-inflammatory, corticosteriod that improves cortisol balance)

Metaformin (balances insulin levels)

Avandia (decreases insulin resistance)

The most popular "NATURAL" treatments among women are:

NAC (n-acetyl-cysteine)

D-Chiro Inositol (formed from Lecithin, or inositol)

NPC (natural progesterone cream)

Vitex (chaste berry herb, NPC is made from this)

Saw Palmetto (DHT inhibitor)

ALA (alpha lipoic acid) / Chromium GTF

Digestive Enzymes / Fiber / Probiotics

Low Carbohydrate Dieting (Insulin Resistance Diet, Atkins, Blood Type, Anti-candida diets, etc)

In case I failed to say this, but you DO NOT have to have ALL of the "symptoms" of PCOS (Syndrome X, Syndrome O, & other names) to be dx as such. That's why it's called a syndrome, because there are no set symptoms. You can be thin and have regular periods, and no cysts, like myself and a few others, and still be pcos. The confusing part is whether PCOS is a symptom of Insulin Resistance or if Insulin Resistance is a symptom of PCOS ;-)

Through some hormonal testing of her own, one woman found out that she had high copper levels. Then she found out that progesterone cream would help balance this and so when she took it, her acne went away and her menstrual cycle regulated. She was PCOS this whole time, but her doctors didn't pay enough attention to her (gave her accutane, but it didn't work 100%). I'm not sure what else she uses, but she doesn't avoid food as "strictly" as I do becaue the NPC has balanced her hormones wonderfully.

So you see, I'm not just all about diet. I'm more about getting you all to be AWARE that there are other reasons and treatments available that go behind possible temporary drugs, such as Accutane and Antibiotics. Cuz to be honest, I don't really care what you use, (I do want you to be healthy) as long as you get the results you DESERVE! Hopefully, if nothing else, you'll at least be more aware of ALL the other treatments that exist and you can pass this along and HELP someone else.

Take care =)

P.S. Yes, MEN can be PCOS also ;-) Or if it makes you feel better, you can consider yourselves Insulin Resistant, since you aren't likely to have certain supposed symptoms. Personally, I think the term PCOS is just used for those people that the doctors can't find another disorder for. Infact, unless I'm really close with them, most people just think I'm sorta Insulin Resistant as the reason I avoid certain foods. So anyway, because men are just as capable of being Insulin Resitant as women, they can and HAVE used MOST of the above treatments to balance/lower their testosterone levels, among other health problems.