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Jobee Newbie  Posts: 4 |
posted 04-24-2003 08:27 PM
  
I have had 3 Back surgies so far for L5-S1 Spondyolisthsis (please excuse the spelling) without relief of pain. The second surgery was to be a removal of my L5 Disc but due to scar tissue and complications it was aborted and new hardware was place and the site was refused. I am now seeing another Dr. who is sending me for a Discogram before he decides to take a shot with for that disc again. My questions are I am wondering why they didn't send me before the last surgery for a Discogram and what if they can't reproduce the pain or find a troubled disc? I did have a Buldge in L5 when I had the Spondo. but this was reduced with the first surgery. There is degeneration through an MRI at L5 but after reading some of the stories here I am very worried about this proceedure and the pain I may have. I know my problems are nothing like many of you have but I feel that the best answers to these question would come from people who have been or are there now. IP: Logged |
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wbaker68 Senior Member Posts: 96 |
posted 04-24-2003 10:07 PM
how long ago was the other surgeries? If the discogram is not positive for the pain your having, it is unlikely that the surgeon would suggest an operation. Discograms are meant to test the pressure the disc can handle as well as generate similar pains. Very informative test for the doctor as well as the patient to know that the doctor is in fact looking at working on the correct problem. One may have herniated disc and the disc may not be causing any of the problems, could be other problems causing problems so by going in and working on disc without the result of discogram would be an error. In fact, the discogram will be putting in dye and when positive findings are found, they will send you for an immediate CAT scan and may even find tears and other problems that didn't show up on MRI before giving more information that doctor can use in evaluating your problems. That was my shot at an explanation, hope it helps. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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wbaker68 Senior Member Posts: 96 |
posted 04-24-2003 10:09 PM
one more thing to add, the discogram itslef can be very painful but if done by a good doctor the procedure should be pretty smooth. I was able to handle the pain during the test, however for 10 days after I was in a lot of pain. Some people have it and don't experience additional pain, and some do. Everyone is different. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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successtory Veteran  Posts: 423 |
posted 04-24-2003 10:39 PM
Hi Jobee and welcome  You mentioned you had 3 surgeries. What procedures did you have...were all 3 surgeries using the same procedure? Or were they progressively more invasive because of the degeneration? And you may not have needed a disco depending upon the procedure you had done. Make sure you have the CT scan with the disco...or why bother? Also be sure to take the film home with you--they are yours. A lot of good people here, hope you can find some help. This is a great place to find it. take care ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Jobee Newbie Posts: 4 |
posted 04-25-2003 12:33 AM
Thanks for the replys. Wbaker, the last surgery was last year around this time, the first was a fusion done with hardware placement 4 years ago. I had the second as an outpatient proceedure for a spinal cord stimulator. I understand what your saying and that's what has me a little worried, they were positive enough to go in a third time to remove the disc without a disogram and now they are ordering one and that leaves me wondering why this wasn't done prior to the last surgery. I understand everyone is different in handling pain and believe me after almost 5 years I've gotten pretty use to living with the pain but if the dicogram does not produce the same type pain I'm wondering what next. IP: Logged |
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hurtinmass Junior Member Posts: 9 |
posted 04-25-2003 06:21 AM
In Feb,02 I had microdiscectomy L4L5;Apparently has failed.MRI with contrast is nothing extrordinary.Yes something is definately wrong and my back feels soo unstable.Could this MRI have missed something.Is there a way you get a better(more accurate) test?Is discogram the way to go?I really need to get this fixed.It's been way too long already.Thank you. IP: Logged |
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wbaker68 Senior Member Posts: 96 |
posted 04-25-2003 09:16 AM
My understanding is that a doctor will not perform discogram and should not perform the discogram unless he feels surgery is necessary. The discogram is used basically to get an idea of the stability of the disc and to confirm the diagnosis. Again, none of us are doctors, but if the test is negative for pain, I myself wouldn't go through with a procedure on that disc and I doubt your doctor would. But he may have other reasons to believe surgery is necessary even after negative discogram. I haven't heard or seen anyone on here have a negative discogram and then go thru with surgery. But I may have missed someone. Big thing is that if you get a positive result you will feel as though you at least have an explanation of the pain. Good luck. P.S. Any luck with your stimulator at all? As you can see that is my only option right now and hoping for at least some relief. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Jobee Newbie Posts: 4 |
posted 04-25-2003 12:45 PM
The stimulator is first used in a 3 day trial basis, it is an external one (pretty obvious). They started doing it this way a little while back due to the expense. I actually had mine in for 4 days. I had NO relief what so ever. I kept track of the voltage used (your able to increase and decrease to see what may be more helpful in over riding the pain). I documented activities (if any) were done but since it's in on a temporary basis you really can't do the things that are causing you pain on an everday basis, like bending attmepting to lift. The unit and leads are wrapped under a girdle like cover that you can not take off. So my feeling was it really was more of going through the system like P/T when it doesn't help. I read not actually talked to someone who it worked on and there are people that it helped so it may work for you, I hope it does. IP: Logged |
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wbaker68 Senior Member Posts: 96 |
posted 04-25-2003 01:45 PM
Yeah, I hope it does as its my last pain control option. Mine will be in for 7 days, inserted by a needle from what I take with the wires hanging out back, no shower for the week, etc. Plan on trying to stay at work all day and not sure what else at this point. I imagine I will try to just get through a full day which I cannot now. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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BAXTER Senior Veteran Posts: 1141 |
posted 04-25-2003 01:50 PM
Hi Jobee, I have to agree with what everybody here has said, especially W Baker, he stated things the exact same way I would have said them. I wish you well Please keep us posted. Take Care, ------------------ IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-25-2003 04:15 PM
Hi. I'm new here because I'll be having discogram done 5/9 and am researching. My understanding of the procedure is to see if your back pain is caused 'by' the disc to see if it's necessary to have surgery,or if another option is better. My doc told me that it's possible to have cortisone injected into the problem disc which will calcify it and potentially take away pain. Also, I have read alot about versed, a medicine used for procedures like this to keep you awake... but, will cause amnesia like state so you don't remember. A link for further info is www.rocheusa.com/products . When is your procedure scheduled for? Thanks! Good luck mokita IP: Logged |
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Jobee Newbie Posts: 4 |
posted 04-25-2003 07:26 PM
I have an appointment on 5/8 for an inital consult with the MD who is doing the proceedure and my Neuro appointment is 5/30 so I'm guessing somewhere in between the 8th and the 20th, I'll keep you informed. Thats how my stimulator was a couple leads in my back that came out into the device itself. I only had 4 days without a shower (believe me I'm not bragging about that). After they removed the stimulator the MD wanted to inplant a MS Pump but I would never do that unless it was the absolute last straw (which we may be close to). Thanks everbody for all the responses, believe me they all were helpful. IP: Logged |
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ReneeRAF Junior Member Posts: 13 |
posted 04-26-2003 09:21 AM
Hi, just so everybody knows? I had a disectomy last May, and had another MRI in November, which showed positive for buldges at two levels, and my discogram was neccessary for the doctor to make sure it was both levels that were causing me pain again. It was pretty painful during the procedure, they used a local anesthesia and I was suppose to go home right after, but had no feelings in my left leg (couldn't walk without my leg collapsing), so I was forced to stay an additional 5 hours. The MD advised me of this prior, but it kinda freaked me out. It went away by the time I got up the next morning and I didn't have any pain afterwards for a day. The MD injected a steriod into the disc for comfort afterward. It lasted 1 day. Then back to pain again, but not more than I had prior to the discogram. But it is my belief that a Discogram is used just to confirm surgery!! Take Care [This message has been edited by ReneeRAF (edited 04-26-2003).] IP: Logged |
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shaukc Junior Member Posts: 15 |
posted 04-26-2003 04:16 PM
I had a discogram Monday (4/21 ) Got worse on Wednesday and its Saturday and am now able just to get up and walk around . It was a very painfull procedure but had to be done .MRI just showed a dis-colored disc . Discogram showed the problem immediately . IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-26-2003 04:21 PM
Hi shaukc, Just curious... what did the discogram end up showing? And,, you feel better already? Thanks!! Mokita(karen) IP: Logged |
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shaukc Junior Member Posts: 15 |
posted 04-26-2003 04:28 PM
discogram showed that L4-5 is completely fissured through on the right side and the middle is leaking out . Ever since i got home from the hospital i have been laying on my left side in a recliner or in bed . Taking pain meds every eight hours , even had to go to ER one night because of pain . The first two days the incision sight hurt really bad then Wednesday is when the back pain got unbearable . Today it is a little better , can at least sit up for a few minutes at a time . Walking hurts but at least i can do it now .Have to go back for surgery in a few weeks . [This message has been edited by shaukc (edited 04-26-2003).] IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-26-2003 04:43 PM
this is what concerns me... I have 2 children - 2-1/2 yr and 14 mo - Mine is schedule for a Friday 5/9 early afternoon.. so my husband will be here for me over the weekend... From what I'm reading, I can't see me being able to do much with my girls come Monday?! I thought I'd be "up and at'em" within a day or so..... sure doesn't sound like that will be the case!! I'm glad you're feeling a bit better now... but, man.... that's 6 days, and you sound like one of the fortunate ones!! I'm reading 10 days and more. Yikes. kk IP: Logged |
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isillyme Senior Member Posts: 99 |
posted 04-26-2003 05:11 PM
The discograms are painful, I do have to admit to that as well. However, My ortho told me that once they do any type of surgery on your back, they need to do another discogram one to check on the mechanics of your disc, and 2 to make sure there hasn't been any change since the surgery. I was fully alert for my discogram, however after the proceedure, my doctor had me have shots of demerol to control the pain. I was at the ER as well 2 days after the test, but every person is different. It's scary to have a discogram, but if you stay relaxed, it goes really fast. After you have the discogram use plenty of ice to control the pain, and of course take your pain meds. And try to rest as much as you can after the discogram. I made the mistake and went back to work the same day of mine, that's why I was in so much pain 3 days after. I wish you well for your discogram  ------------------ IP: Logged |
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emc Junior Member Posts: 18 |
posted 04-26-2003 05:20 PM
Hi Karen I had a discogram 7 years ago so I'm not sure if things have changed at all. The proceedure was painful but I had immediate relief when the doctor let up on the pressure. I had a lot of pain afterwards and my doctor told me it was because I had disc problems at three levels. So all three areas were "irritaded" and had to calm down. I think I was a good week in bed and on painkillers. I would assume that you will need help with your little ones. As bad as this all sounds I would not hesitate to have another one if it is eventually going to help solve the problem. Good luck. wbaker68...I think I answered your post on the spine cord board. I am the one with the broken stimulator. Again, I wish you luck with the trial. Glad that you are going to have thr Medtronics. Keep us posted. Susan IP: Logged |
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wbaker68 Senior Member Posts: 96 |
posted 04-26-2003 05:40 PM
Just want to again tell you that I have read of several people not having any more problems than they normally have after the discogram and hopefully your one of them. Some of us on the other hand have not been so lucky but maybe that is because we are in real bad shape to begin with. EMC, thanks for the comments and support, much appreciated. ------------------ [This message has been edited by wbaker68 (edited 04-26-2003).] IP: Logged |
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shaukc Junior Member Posts: 15 |
posted 04-26-2003 07:07 PM
Karen - the discogram was painful but well worth doing -- i got shots of demerol a few times during it to control the pain - - they injected three disc - the first one all i felt was pressure - the second one hurt real bad and brought back all my pain and the third one only pressure was felt again - the whole thing was over before i knew it - you are just going to have to have alot of rest afterwards - another problem that i had was that i was allergic to all the bandages and tape - my back broke out in a terrible rash - that made it hurt more to - sounds like my discogram was not as bad as some i have heard about on here .Maybe yours will not be as painfull either . [This message has been edited by shaukc (edited 04-26-2003).] IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-26-2003 09:50 PM
Thank you shaukc, Wbaker and emc! I know I have to do this... the 'not knowing' has been nagging at me for over 2 yrs. I would rather have bad news than no news at all (sounds like Hee Haw!! : ) ) I appreciate all the support you bring to this forum. I am eternally grateful for it and will post my experiences.. hoping they will be positive (not too painful) ones!!! Thanks again! Karen IP: Logged |
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shaukc Junior Member Posts: 15 |
posted 04-26-2003 11:35 PM
Karen - me and my three children were hit from behind in December and left in the middle of the highway . I have had pain since then . I had four monthes of not knowing and just finally had the discogram done to find out . My fourteen year old son has lots more back damage than i do but his pain is gone for now . He was told by the ortho to never pick up anything heavy or he may be his youngest patient to have to operate on . Of course he is 14 and that goes in one ear and out the other . You just have to find out the source of the pain . I will be looking around 5/9 to see how you are doing . IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-27-2003 06:42 AM
Thanks Shaukc. Sorry to hear about your accident! Hope you son never experiences any more pain.... bless him. It's hard enuf to deal with when you're better equipped. Thank you for well-wishes. I will be sure to post experiences of the big "D"! I told my husband last night that I may not be doing jumping jacks in 2 days. Ofcourse, not much he can do - somebody has to work. I think I'll give my cousin's daughter a call. Perhaps she can hang around for a couple of days. I'm so glad I've read these posts... has given me imortant info---it would've really stunk to just not be prepared!!!! Karen IP: Logged |
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shaukc Junior Member Posts: 15 |
posted 04-27-2003 08:36 PM
Karen - I sure was not prepared !!! I was scheduled to go back to work in three days ???? Yeah right !!!!! Will know 5/1 when my surgery is . Luckily all my kids are in their teens so they kinda could take of themselves .( and they were in school all week ). [This message has been edited by shaukc (edited 04-27-2003).] IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-28-2003 07:25 AM
Is it possible to perform the IDET at same time as Discogram? Or do you have to be set up for separate surgery? Seems like if they think it's a tear, you agree to have IDET done if their diagnosis is correct, they could just do both at once rather than make you go under twice?? Just a thought! Thanks!! Karen IP: Logged |
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shaukc Junior Member Posts: 15 |
posted 04-28-2003 08:46 AM
I thought the same thing but after they were already out and i was in recovery . That would have been a whole lot easier ! [This message has been edited by shaukc (edited 04-28-2003).] IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-28-2003 09:20 AM
I think I'll bring it up to doc 'before' I go under the knife - errrr - needle.... whatever. The other procedure he mentioned was shooting cortisone into disc. I will have to ask what has a higher success rate, the cort.shot or IDET. Anybody ever had the cortisone shot INTO disc?? Thanks! Karen IP: Logged |
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wbaker68 Senior Member Posts: 96 |
posted 04-28-2003 05:24 PM
very doubtful, because doctor couldn't bill as much. Way they do now they can get everyone paid twice. Plus, they don't set aside enough time to do so. They schedule the patients all in a row for discograms and dr goes from one patient to next, if he was to perform another procedure in between the doctor's day which is always behind anyway would be way off. Everything is done by codes and that is how billing is done, anathesiaologist(spelling?) would then only get to bill once and same for assistants, nurse, surgery room, etc.. Just would make sense but won't likely happen. Make the comment, would be interested in doctors response. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-28-2003 05:33 PM
Wbaker --- you are so right! I'll bet that would be the response "I'm sorry... but we will need to evaluate the ct scan report, blah, blah, blah" - but, I'm sure the reasoning would be what you suggest! I would so much prefer only the one time.... I will ask, though. Although, I won't be seeing doc before procedure. The hospital is supposed to call me to set everything up... Thanks for responses! Karen IP: Logged |
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ickyback Junior Member Posts: 10 |
posted 04-28-2003 05:49 PM
I had my discogram last monday. My reaction & experience was very similar in that it hurt & that I was stiff & sore afterwards...but one thing to keep in mind... I'm allergic to penicillin, so they put vancomycin antibiotics in my IV. I immediately got a rash, and felt overheated. I started to stratch my scalp & it felt like my fingernails turned into razorblades. The doctor noted that I looked "very flushed". They immediately removed my Iv & replaced it with a clean on and ran some saline fluids through me. This made me feel very anxious before they even started the actual discogram. I did a search on "Vancomycin Side Efffects" and it resulted in many "hits" IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-28-2003 05:55 PM
Geez.... that sounds scary! As if the procedure itself isn't enough to give you hives and make you anxious! Thanks for the heads up, though. Will keep that in mind! Were you sedated for the procedure? I really want to ask the doc about that Versed. If I have to be in pain, I'd rather not remember it! Also, what did they have you on for pain afterwards? You may have posted this already, and if so, sorry. I'll have myself nuts by the time May 9th rolls around! When I think about my question earlier, IDET w/ discogram, that probably isn't such a hot idea anyway. Sounds like each thing takes a good long time to recover from. It would probably be a whole lot worse with two invasive procedures at once. Karen IP: Logged |
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ickyback Junior Member Posts: 10 |
posted 04-28-2003 06:21 PM
Hey there...Really, it's not as gristly as you think. Sure it sucks, but so did the IV when it went into my hand. I'm not one for needles in the first place. I'm an extremely anxious individual, so that certainly didn't help. They talk to you the entire time, which eased my anxiety. As long as I knew what was going on, I was o.k. No pain killers are given to you until the procedure is over, then they immediately run it through your IV. I had a wonderful group of folks (nurses & the like). They gave me some shots of (numbing agent-can't remember name) prior to the discogram, but that was all. For me, I was able to recover quickly, but a new "episode" of pain followed a day or two later. IP: Logged |
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shaukc Junior Member Posts: 15 |
posted 04-28-2003 06:40 PM
they put a little dermerol in my IV just before they started the discogram , then gave me a little more half way through it . But i received no antibiotics through my IV .They gave me two pain pills right after though . Guess all doctors are different ? But like Ikeyback said closure is good . [This message has been edited by shaukc (edited 04-28-2003).] [This message has been edited by shaukc (edited 04-28-2003).] IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-28-2003 06:54 PM
I certainly agree... closure will be sweet after 2-1/2 yrs. I'll hang tough... I know I can do it with all of your support here. It's welcome and greatly appreciated!!!
kk IP: Logged |
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Massback Junior Member Posts: 6 |
posted 04-28-2003 07:45 PM
Hi everyone.Some of you know a little about my situation.I constantly have low back pain along with SI pain both sides.Had microdiscectomy last year that initially seemed to cure me but now am with similar pain as I was prior to surgery.We've done injections to the SI'a with no help and now are going to do epidural.My question is why is the Dr. not ordering a discogram first.I seems to me that quite possibly the herniated disc we operated on may not have been the cause of my problems so why not make sure of the problem?Is it possible that I don't even have a disc problem?Wouldn't discogram give proof positive?Or is that a test that doesn't always diagnose?I'm willing to do most anything to get better but don't want this to drag on any longer than necessary. IP: Logged |
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mokita Member Posts: 62 |
posted 04-28-2003 08:14 PM
Hi Mass. With my doc... he wanted to rule out what he thought was nerve being irritated, thus causing pain and tingling (some down leg but most pain in back). We did 3 ESI's - 2 Right Transforiminal (-sp-?) and the last 1 lumbar. They didn't touch the pain (in my dimple area right side). So, now he thinks it IS a disc causing the pain. I believe he's using the discogram to confirm what he believes. He just wanted to rule everything else out first, I guess. Or it's more $$$ for them?? I'd like to believe he's better than that, but, who knows. I think you have a valid question, why don't you ask them and see how they respond? Good luck!! Karen IP: Logged |
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wbaker68 Senior Member Posts: 96 |
posted 04-28-2003 08:53 PM
discogram will not be done usually until surgery is looking likely as its a very invasive and very expensive test. BCBS was billed $9,800 for my discogram. Needless to say since the doctor I saw was a participating provider, BCBS only paid approx. $2800. Amazing, the poor guy with no insurnace would be stuck paying a bill for close to $10,000 for years. Anyway, Mass, that is likely reason for no discogram. Costly and will try all other types of treatment and if it looks like surgery is going to be necessary they do the discogram to confirm the disc they are considering a procedure on is indeed the cause. A little more than you were asking for, but thought it was interesting. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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ickyback Junior Member Posts: 10 |
posted 04-29-2003 10:12 AM
Massback...I don't look forward to opening my discogram bill, but the test did reveal that I had pain at two levels rather than one...what we all had originally thought. It just seems that everyone's situation is a variation on a theme. Discogram...no discogram.... IP: Logged |
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shaukc Junior Member Posts: 15 |
posted 04-29-2003 03:02 PM
Ickyback - it seems as though we both had the discogram done on the same day .How are you feeling ? I am still sore - am doing ice again - can walk and sit ok but not for long - My back feels still inflamed - left leg goes numb( as it did before ) and now am having problems with pain going down right leg . Just wondering . [This message has been edited by shaukc (edited 04-29-2003).] IP: Logged |
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