posted 05-18-2003 07:17 PM            

My L4 has a tear in it with significant leak. Do they ever heal on their own? Or is IDET one of the only options I will have?

Also, my numb right foot seems to be getting a little worse... going up to my knee at times... almost feels like I'm getting chills all the way down from butt to ankle, also. If I don't get the IDET.... assuming my L4 is what's causing the numbness... do I run the risk of permanent nerve damage?

Two questions that I forgot to address w/ my doc... so any opinions will be appreciated!

TIA

posted 05-18-2003 09:32 PM            

I am now 5 months post op from having the IDET for an annular tear in my L4/5 disc. I hear that if an annular tear will heal, it will heal within the first year.

Not to get you discouraged, but I am doing far more worse now. I have been dealing with the tear for 2 years now Needless to say, it is very painful. Are you in alot of pain?

I have the same issue with my toes, and foot. Also, the longer time goes, the worse that gets as well. Have you talked to a doctor? What have you been told thus far? How did you find out you had an annular tear? Okay, I will quit asking questions Please let me know if you find out anything else. Also, hope you get feeling better.

Hi Suddzrus! I am extremely curious about your situation. I am very much in dire need of help Were you diagnosed with an Annular tear?? If so, what methods have you done before the hemilaminectomy? Do you have any suggestions that I could do at this point? I am taking way too much pain medicine, and have bedridden for 5 months...not good.

Hope you two get feeling better, and hope to hear back from you both. Have a great day

cj

posted 05-18-2003 09:37 PM            

Up until last year....the IDET was the only procedure to fix disk tears. However, since then...my own surgeon is using the Nucleoplasty procedure to fix tears in disks. I'm not sure what he does differently, etc....but the IDET is REALLY hard on your back (because of the high thermal temperatures). Recovery takes 6-18 months--literally. Strictly structured PT and water exercises are followed, etc. So ask abou the nucleoplasty for you.

Your 2nd question re: perm nerve damage. Yes it is possible. When it starts feeling like hot ice picks are being jammed up your heels when you walk...it has begun (that's what happened to me which is why I will never be 100% well)...but I am functional again. I cannot continue in my career, and I can no longer enjoy the sports I used to (horseback riding, softball, tennis, etc.)--too much bumping, bending and twisting. Try to get off your feet when you realize you are heading to the major pain. Good luck to you!

posted 05-19-2003 06:35 AM            

Yes, I've been to quite a few docs, through meds, PT, etc. I just added my short list to signature! I am in a lot of pain, sometimes worse than others. Working to get the meds right. In the meantime, my doc has mentioned IDET, but, as successtory notes in post above, recovery time is long, and I have 2-1/2 yr old and 15 mo old girls that I KNOW I would ruin the surgery by not following restrictions (no lifting 5# for first 3-6 wks??? Not gonna happen) So, if they tell me that I, personally, am going to face permanent nerve damage (thank you for your info about that, cj and successtory) and my 2nd opinion confirms that, then I guess I will have to manage restrictions by hiring babysitter to stay w/ me for at least 6wks. Hope it doesn't come to that, but,that's why I posted this thread. To get a real idea of what I'm looking at. Sheesh... doesn't look good.

Take care.

Karen

posted 05-19-2003 03:19 PM            

cjsparrow!
I've been wondering how you have been holding up. Not good huh?
Geez, isn't there something else you can do now? Another opinion or something?
I know that surgery is pretty serious but you have been going through this pain for so long. Have you though about surgery at all. It can't be as bad as what you are going through now, can it?
I hope you get better soon and find something that helps you!!!
Love and prayers,
Christina

posted 05-19-2003 07:51 PM            

I am hoping that I do heal with time.... it's just hard to 'be careful' w/ two little ones and I am a very involved Mommy... playing with them, swinging with them, and my 15 mos old is really Mommy's girl and teething. So, it's hard.

The doc did change my meds back, a little, to oxycontin 10mg/2x instead of the one.... and is keeping me on the ultracet, but I am more comfortable this evening. Still waiting for my 'consultation' with new doc to be set up. So.. will keep updating and thanks again. Your story gives me hope!

Karen

posted 05-19-2003 09:00 PM            

Thanks for all the info!

posted 05-19-2003 10:12 PM            

I first want to thank you for replying to my post. Everyone here is so helpful.

I'm not sure if the discs can heal themselves but I know that my doctor wanted t do another MRI to see if my disc is still herniated or gotten worse. I was told I had a small herniation at L5S1 but I am having a lot more leg pain now. I am not too familiar with the discogram. Could you please tell me what it is like? Was it very painful? Also, why did you have that done instead of an MRI.

I am also a mother of three kids 4,6, and 12. Life starts to get so depressing when you aren't able to do all the things with your kids that you want to. Keep your head high, I'm sure there is light at the end of the tunnel!(We just need to find the right tunnel!)

posted 05-19-2003 11:22 PM            

Karen, what I have been told about the annular tear, is that it can take anywhere from 1-5 years to heal. The Annular Tear is the Great Enigma in the Medical Industry. You will probably get a bunch of answers. Also I heard of a story of a woman who had an Annular Tear for 10 years. Her movement was very limited, not too mention painful. She finally had a bone fusion, and is doing better.

Back in the old days (10 yrs ago) a bone fusion, or to live with the tear was the only option.

If you want my sincere honest advice. I say Ummmm heck no to ANOTHER Discogram!!! Pllllllllllease really consider not having the IDET done. I can honestly say I am worse than pre Idet. I am a tough cookie, and know my body. I have been
Athletic for over 20 years. My doctor won't even do another Discogram on me because they are so hard on the back.

If you can, try and give it awhile. Go to the pool, and walk back and forth in the pool for about 20 minutes, with the water up to your bosom area

Really think about that IDET deal. I do not recommend it to anyone!! Good Luck Cutie, and yes, you have to be immobile for almost 3 months at least post IDET to even give it a chance. A friend of mine, she is even on this board once in awhile, cannot lift her little 2 year old post IDET. She could at least lift the little one before. It is tough stuff. Let me know if you have any questions. Hang in There!

ChristinaD

Soooooooooo good to know you remember me. Yeah, this has been WAY too long. I am in more pain than ever. The doctor, and PT is convinced the IDET did not work. What do you think, should I do the fusion??? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa How are you these days??? I will catch up later. I am hurting now.
Take Care Sweetie!!!!!

posted 05-20-2003 06:24 AM            

Maria - I did have MRI, it only showed slight bulge and DDD in L4 - then the 3 injections that didn't work, THEN doc set up discogram b'cuz he felt there was a tear not showing and he was right! The discogram is supposed to hurt if they find the right disc and do not oversedate you. It's called a provocative discogram, because they are trying to 'provoke' the same pain you have to see if itis discogenic(caused by the disc) rather than nerves, or spine, or something else. www.spine-health.com has a lot of good info if you search on "discogram" - mine didn't hurt - but, I was so looped from the sedation... I did feel like I was yelling when he hit the one disc - but, I don't think anything came out of my mouth! so,

cj - I am going to do the 2nd discogram because the doctor who'll be doing it is Radiology Department Head (specializing in pain management) at Cleveland Clinic and, my pm doc said the guy is best in region for doing/reading these procedures... I REALLY want to have a correct reading on this. THEN, we'll see what route... but, I am strongly against the IDET for the reasons you stated, 3 MONTHS Unless I am not going to be able to walk from NOT having it performed, I won't do anything for at least a year. PLUS I will get 2nd opinion, probably from the neurosurgeon who sent me to Pain Mgmt Clinic to begin with.

Coby - being a mother is challenging at best, and moreso w/ little ones because they don't understand 'mommy is hurting' - and I had to listen to that from my Father due to his back, so, I probably overdo more often than not. I do need to try to be careful even more. I just don't want to think about it cuz it's depressing. I've always been very active physically, and going for a walk at this point is challenging (well... pushing a double stroller - perhaps if I were only walking ME it wouldn't be so bad!!! lol)

Thank you all for the info!!! I appreciate it!

Karen

------------------
9/22/00 24 hour labor, baby posterior, left tailbone killing me
12/00 MRI - PCP said nothing amiss - but, had to begin taking vicodin
2/8/02 - 2nd baby born after long, painful pregnance as weight gain
2000-11/02 various PT + pain meds
11/02 Referred to Neuro
3/03 NEW MRI - shows slight bulge L3-L4,slight DDD Neuro Refers to PM for ESI
3/03 PM Doc orders ESI
3/21,4/1,4/8 - ESI's no help
5/9 - Discogram - shows Tear L4 w/ significant leak onto nerves, DDD
Doc sched NEW discogram 'cuz performing doc oversedated, False Negative

posted 05-20-2003 10:26 AM            

I just had a couple of questions about MRI rpt, tried to do google search... figured before I try THAT again, I'll check here! Too much medical jibberish!

OK..
1.THERE IS STRAIGHTENING OF NORMAL LUMBAR LORDOSIS MINIMAL END PLATE DEGENERATIVE CHANGES ARE NOTED TO INVOLVE THE SUPERIOR ASPECT OF S1. THE NORMAL HYPERINTENSE DISC SIGNAL IS MAINTAINED WITHIN THE INTERVERTEBRAL DISCS. THE CONUS MEDULLARIS IS LOCATED AT THE LEVEL OF T12-L1.

(Question: what is superior aspect of S1? and is the conus medullaris supposed to be located @ T12-L1?)

AT L4-L5 THERE IS A BULGING DISC WHICH MEASURES APPROX.3MM IN ITS MAXIMAL DIMENSION. a PORTION OF THIS DISC INVOLVES THE RITGH NEURAL FORAMEN. THIS APPEARS TO COMPRESS THE RIGHT L5 NERVE ROOT. THE LEFT SIDED NERVE ROOT APEARS SPARED.

(Question: Would the L5 nerve root being compressed be making my foot numb/tingly?)

I know this is long... but, if anybody has a clue as to my questions, I'd appreciate it. I will still try to look up online.... TIA ?)

Karen

posted 05-20-2003 01:57 PM            

I'm also no good at figuring out MRI terminology I still have to research most of mine, it's all so confusing

I'm also sad to hear that you have to wait until July 8th for the 2nd discogram, that seems like forever
He sounds like the top guy, so it will be worth the wait.

I hope you can control the pain in the meantime

Be Well,
Baxter

posted 05-20-2003 01:59 PM            

I appreciate the input. I guess osteophytes are some kind of bone? spurs, maybe? That doesn't bode well for the future now, does it?

I was told after discogram that I have DDD, too. The neurosurgeon who referred me to pain doc mentioned it also after looking at films (MRI).

Thanks again.

Karen

posted 05-21-2003 12:43 AM            

Karen, I am not too good at the MRI readings. I was pretty hard on the Discogram, and Idet. I know you will do what you feel is right. Just be careful. I have noticed with my Annular Tear, I have been looking for so many answers that I darn near let them do almost anything to me! Until the IDET... Gulp. After the IDET, and how it has worsened me, I am a bit reluctant to let them docs have their way with me

Let me know what transpires, and if you have any questions. Be strong, and listen to what your gut instinct tells you, you can't go wrong there

ChristinaD- Thank you sooooooooo much for your advice. Yes I am hurting even worse than ever! And I never had flare ups this bad. It has been 5 months post IDET.. not good My PT can hardly believe what my doctor is putting me through. He says he has patients that would be running to the fusion surgery right now!

And yes I am bedridden I wasn't this bad before. I am glad to hear from you. Just little bits of advice, can, and do make all the difference for me from friends on this board. God Bless You!

I see my PT on Friday, and get a second opinion next Wednesday. I will keep you and Karen posted, as I hope the both of you will too!

Take Care!

posted 05-21-2003 10:12 AM            

cj.... I will listen to my gut... and the more I read, my gut says "deal w/ the pain... meds can help for now.... wait til little ones are a bit more self-sufficient!"

I see new doc 7/8... will probably have another discogram... which I do want to have that positive reading ... I am happy that my doc agrees with ME... but, still would like the 'final say' to be correct. Is that crazy?

Anyway... hope you get some relief... is PT making it worse by any chance? I know the traction that I did made it way worse...

ok....my little one needs some water!

Take care

Karen