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    Old 05-29-2004, 08:40 PM   #1
    cashewboy
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    sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    I just wanted to say thanks to sweetjade1, I read her post and finally understood why I'm still getting a bit of acne


    HEre is her post
    http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/018774.html

    She breaks it down to a sCIENCE.

    |I've noticed
    1) I get acne from my oily skin,
    but I stoped this by going on a strict carb diet.

    But I still get whiteheads, from not too oily skin

    why is that? The answer is in sweetjade1's post, which would be
    Its not exfloiating, even though I have more drier skin now, I need to exlfloiate,

    I remember when I use to do intense exercises and sweat a bowl, I would hav the clearest skin, that would clean up my skin 100%

    The key to fixing my acne is

    1) Less oil
    2) More exfloation (by sweating)

    3) I have one problem which is the sex part, I can't seem to find out how to control this part, sex = more DHT produced, I can get acne even from non-oily places, it seems like it just pops up... Thats the only place where I am stumped.
    How Does sex relate to insulin and acne? missing link.. can't figure that part out because I get acne from places where I don't have oil when I have sex.


    Good info, just want to say your info ain't going to waste, sweetjade

     
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    Old 05-29-2004, 10:22 PM   #2
    Assailant
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    there is no way to break down acne, we are all different, I have oily skin and went through the routines, just find what works for you and stick with it, if it were so easy as to use a certain method nobody would have acne,

     
    Old 05-29-2004, 11:11 PM   #3
    cashewboy
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    ACtually dieting isn't easy at all.
    I'm sacraficing a lot for low production oil skin,
    but its worth it.

    Last edited by cashewboy; 05-29-2004 at 11:11 PM.

     
    Old 05-30-2004, 01:48 AM   #4
    Demi1960s
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    and who said dieting would be easy
    it's not an easy thing..NOT AT ALL

     
    Old 05-30-2004, 09:41 PM   #5
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    really she was combining diet with spiro until she went to the diet without the spiro.last posts she made she was debating if she wanted to go back on spiro.there are a lot of ways of attacking acne.androgens are causing your sebasious glands to produce too much sebum.anyways she did her homework and probably spent hours researching this disorder or disease or whatever you might call acne.shes a pretty smart girl and her post are more accurate than any other poster on this board or any board i have been to.

     
    Old 05-30-2004, 10:50 PM   #6
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    Oily skin doesn't necessary cause acne. People with pimples and cystic acne doesn't have oily skin either. It's what happen underneath the skin. I think acne is an internal problem.

    Sexual activities can definitely cause acne, I found that out with masturbation. Sexual activities with a partner might be different to self-indulging but highly unlikely. Interesting that people can have sex very frequently and have no problem with their skin. And they say sexual activities is supposed to be good for you.

    HENCE, WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT.

     
    Old 05-31-2004, 12:17 AM   #7
    avron
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    I am having the same problem with sex/masturbation, I can't seem to find a 'cure' for my after-sex acne, it's REALLY hard to fight off urges when you're being consumed by teenage hormones from hell.

     
    Old 05-31-2004, 12:40 AM   #8
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    uhhhh soul man androgens are male sex hormone aka testosterone.maybe not all acne is hormonal but the majority 90+ is.you either have a hormonal imbalance.....producing too much testosterone or your sebasous glands are sensative to testosterone or both.yes acne starts as a internal problem thats why its best to go to an endo to have your hormonal levels. checked.derms are good for attacking acne at the oil glands under the skin or at the surface of the skin.anyways try reading sweet jades post and you might not have acne.

     
    Old 05-31-2004, 11:24 AM   #9
    cashewboy
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    haha you know guys

    it really pisses me off
    where not only can't I eat the foods I love to keep down my oil production, I can't have sex or even masturbate, I can't eat a chocolate cake, I can't drink alcohol ,even the simple pleasures of life like oreO and milk breaks me out :/ someone just shoot me now

    anybody try saw palmetto to stop dht?
    I've been reading I've noticed quite a few say it increases oil production, we definately don't want that

    I've been exercising like a mad man lately, I think thats the key to stopping the acne at the NON-oILY skin places.

    What do you guys think, I mean really exercising, pouring with sweat so it cleans out the glands.

    I've also been measuring my blood sugar, Before exercise : 110 (no carb diet)
    After very strenous running : 89

    almost a 20 point jump down

    Last edited by cashewboy; 05-31-2004 at 11:26 AM.

     
    Old 05-31-2004, 02:04 PM   #10
    SweetJade1
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    Aww, thanks Cashewboy & Joeh =)

    Exercising is another way to decrease insulin resistance. I too sweat during workouts, but I've never broken out as a result of the sweat. I know some do major weight lifting, and feel that may have a slightly opposite effect, but I don't know. Then again, how many of these people are also consuming the wrong protein shakes (ever try rice protein powder?) and carb loading (to produce testosterone)?

    As for as the sex = acne part, well yeah it's possible. A major testosterone increase is absolutely synonymous with sex. The problem here for those of you that have found that you only breakout after sex or that it gets worse after sex, may be that you are deficient in something. Of course, acne sufferers are always deficient in at least one enzyme, nutrient, etc, right? ;-)
    Well here's a few possibilities:

    Zinc Deficiency: May hold true more for males, I don't know, but it (along with B6) is a DHT (and aromatase) inhibitor. Zinc also inhibits DHT indirectly by being apart of 13-cis retinoic acid (natural accutane) synthesis from Vitamin A in your body. Hmm, or maybe that is the mechanism as to how it is a DHT inhibitor...lol

    Aromatase Deficiency: This is the enzyme responsible for converting androgens into estrogens. This is a way to keep things balanced in the body, and more particularly for a woman, if this enzyme is defective....then we've got too much testosterone floating around that could cause damage. DHT inhibitors (natural or synthetic) work by inhibiting the conversion of DHT, but they also inhibit the conversion of Estrogen from Testosterone. So this may be a good or a bad thing depending on your needs. There are good and bad estrogens. The bad estrogens feed certain types of cancer and since DHT inhibitors work to prevent those as well, it makes sense to partially block this action. Of course, some men and women have noted that they have increased breast growth, therefore, it can't be blocking that much estrogen conversion (supposed to be blocking the bad estrogen). ;-) There are natural ways to boost aromatase.

    SHBG Deficiency: This is the protein that is used to bind steroid hormones in the blood. While it can also bind estrogen, it has a much greater affinity for binding androgens. The funny thing is that the more androgens in your blood, the less SHBG there is. While the more estrogens in your blood, the more SHBG there is. This may be due to the fact that your body produces Testosterone, before it will produce estrogen (as you need aromatase). So when you boost estrogen, such as during the use of BC pills or HRT, you are boosting your SHBG levels. Thus, it makes sense that the more testosterone you have the less of this protein you will have to help balance things out. There are natural and synthetic ways to boost estrogen production, thus boosting SHBG.

    So what are these natural ways to boost aromatase and SHBG?
    Well some are herbals, others are B Vitamins or other vitamins, and others are through the avoidance of Insulin or IGF-1 Spiking/Mimicking foods. Of course if you combine all of these in the correct amounts for you, youíve got a super fighter against these hormones.

    1. I think most of you are aware of some of the herbs and dietary factors, but I think all of us, are not fully aware of the importance of a vitaminís role. Most of the B Vitamins (along with their cofactors) play some role in hormone production.

    *Some metabolize cholesterol, thus leaving less of it to be converted into steroids (B5, Niacin, Inositol, Choline, Lecithin, Folic Acid, Biotin, B2).

    *Others are apart of Insulin balance (Biotin, B2).

    Others boost digestion (B12)

    *Others boost production of estrogen (Folic Acid - B9, PABA, B12).

    *Others prevent the conversion of DHT (B6, B2).

    2. Prometheus first brought this next supplement to my full attention. She said that it was good at retaining Calcium, Magnesium, & Vitamin D in the body, thus may help with osteoporosis. This supplement is known as Boron and there are studies supporting the above. That alone, makes it sounds so amazing, but on top of that, studies have suggested that it has estrogen mimicking abilities or estrogen (& testosterone) boosting abilities. On the other hand, Manganese is also estrogen-like, and is responsible for boosting the above minerals, but high levels of Boron will deplete Manganese (high amounts are toxic). LOL, itís a delicate balance here, but itís a shame itís not talked about more often, let alone used in most Bone or Calcium supplemental formulas.

    3. Another supplement is that of Flaxseed. Apparently fiber has the ability to balance sugar & fat levels, and reduce bad estrogens, testosterone, and other toxins. However, when you use a particularly type such as phytoestrogenic Lignans, you can also mimic good estrogens. So by consuming ground flaxseed (has the highest content of lignans), not only do you get your DHT fighting omega 3s, but also your good estrogen & SHBG boosting lignans. Of course since it is a natural DHT inhibitor & Aromatase inhibitor, you are slightly raising your regular testosterone levels, but that isnít as bad as DHT. Itís very weird balance they way these work, but nature knows best.

    4. For now, the last supplement Iíd like to mention is that of Probiotics. Good bacteria are involved in many processes of the body. They help metabolize certain foods that we canít and they also help boost or even create select acne fighting B Vitamins. One such good bacteria that boosts estrogen and phytoestrogen metabolism is Acidophilus.


    Therefore, that may explain why Natural Accutane (if any of you saw that post), Vitamin B5 Therapy, Optizinc+B6, D-chiro Inositol or Myoinositol (working on as a prescription), and what Iíve recently discovered thanks to another, Mega Folic Acid Therapy, yield results that aid in clearing the skin, require select B Vitamins.

    As for me, Iím currently looking into Folic Acid therapy as means of controlling my hirstuism so that I donít have to go back on Spiro. Various drugs, Bacterial infections, alcohol, a zinc deficiency, or a vitamin c deficiency can lead to poor folic acid metabolism. Furthermore, I found out that BC (estrogen) can leach folic acid. Maybe it does so due to the fact that you are already receiving estrogen, so why does the body need to naturally produce more estrogen. BC may be acting as a sort of negative feedback mechanism, so once a women goes off these, maybe this is why her acne may appear to have worsenedÖ. Just a thought.

    The thing is, these vitamins do work together, so if you are supplementing at mega, but not toxic, amounts (dietary levels are not always significant enough), you may want to ensure you are also taking a B Complex or a Multivitamin & Mineral formula to keep things balanced. Just because B Vitamins are water soluble, doesnít mean that they wonít throw off your balance with other vitamins or essential B Vitamins. A good example of this is those that do use B5 Therapy, they found they needed not just a B Complex, but specifically additional Biotin to prevent hair loss.

    Hope that inspires you some =)


    P.S. There are studies dating back to 1976 that have supported that certain forms of acne, incl. a type of rosacea, are increased with B6 or B12 supplementation and is also more prevelant in females (past puberty). This may have something to do with the amount supplemented and one's gender, but I've always heard that B12 can cause breakouts. Perhaps due to the mechanism for which B6 works and Flaxseed (some have reported breakouts), it is possible that this can cause flare ups in select individuals. I suppose if that happens then you are closer to understanding the form of hormonal imbalance (or it could be an allergy) that you have.

    Last edited by SweetJade1; 05-31-2004 at 04:12 PM.

     
    Old 05-31-2004, 03:38 PM   #11
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    Where can I get probiotics in Vitamin Stores and what kinds should I get ? And should I take Zinc with copper? Or should i just take zinc by itself?

     
    Old 05-31-2004, 03:51 PM   #12
    Paracelsus
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    Indeed the girl does know what she's talking about

    There is a lot of crossover in the field of bodybuliding, hair loss, and acne. Namely, hormonal and DHT in particular. My guess is that the braintrusts in these fields would have a lot to offer each other. The science that SweetJade1 has provided is pretty dead on; the anecdotal evidence sometimes does not compute.

    The 5AR inhibitors seem to have either an insignificant or inconclusive effect on total hormone balance. If choosing a 5AR, find one that is not also armoatase inhibiting and there should be no striking hormonal setpoint change. I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the underappreciated EGCG is a good candidate for 5AR inhibition to DHT. The data available on this substance (this is one amazing complex polyphenol in green tea btw) leaves much to be desired. Topical application of EGCG is of questionable importance, as is oral delivery.

    I think that what I would really like to see is transdermal EGCG delivery for targeted highly (biologically) available application. Just for kicks you can get a bunch of patches that have a ***load of transdermal EGCG from 1800patches com - its not a solution just an experiment. Transdermal formulations of EGCG would be inexpensive.

    Has anyone tried transdermal 5AR inhibition? I don't know what other molecules would work transdermally (MW<500, hydrophobic, etc).

    Also- drinking a lot of water and excercising a lot does not make my sweat sterile at all. I noticed that I must clean/shower after a workout. A perfect diet does not really matter.

    I think that restricting carbs mainly keeps hormones level, which is where the carb restriction -- clear skin comes in. Let me expound for a moment: low carb/low liver glycogen/ low ATP/adp ratio will cause 5'deionidase enzyme conversion of T4 to T3 thyroid levels. This sustained, slow'ish TCA cycle, slow'ish metabolism has effects to downregulate the HPT axis. Of course this in turn downregulates the sex hormone axis and that's where the drop in test. comes in.

    Even further, if you restrict calories and carbs for long enough and basically starve yourself, your system will slow even further. Since survival is the system's #1 goal and reproduction, #2, you will eventually cause cessation in most hormone production. This will clear your skin. Bodybuilders realize this effect all the time: starvation=clear skin, and it sucks! The only reason that i mention this is that I believe a sustained solution to skincare is not realized in systemic test levels (at lest for men). You will become impotent before you clear yourself up, and that's a gurentee (sad but true).

     
    Old 05-31-2004, 04:32 PM   #13
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    Diselpower,
    If dairy is a problem for you, then you will have to find acidophilus or probiotics, that is not in such a solution. Maybe Primal Defense may work for you. It's expensive, but others rave about it. (I'll try and find some others later)

    As for zinc the ones that are best for acne are Zinc citrate or Zinc Gluconate. I think Zinc Gluconate is more preferred (more absorbable?), and you can usually find that under the title of Optizinc. I couldn't possibly tell you what dose to go on, but some say 30mg while others say 50mg.

    While Copper & estrogen have a unique relationship. However, you should probably be getting more than enough of this in your drinking water and other foods. If you are consuming to much of this, you'll throw your system out of balance and for females that are estrogen dominant, copper excess is one of the implications. If you produce too much estrogen, then you'll absorb too much copper and I think vice versa.

    HTH some

     
    Old 05-31-2004, 05:17 PM   #14
    SweetJade1
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    Paracelsus,
    Wow thanks for that post! =) However, I did not forget Green Tea, I have it lumped under DHT Inhibitor-analogues.

    I believe that Green Tea and Equol (heard of this?) are our analogues that will bind to DHT receptor sites and do only that. Those are the ones that I would definately pick over the others, because as you've mentioned, they won't interfere with testosterone or estrogen production.

    Of course, by reducing your overall steriod hormone production, as dietary changes do, that helps even more. You brought out a point that I don't like to emphasis, but it is true, if you starve yourself, you probably will have clear skin. However, if you reduce certain foods that play a major role in spiking your insulin or IGF-1 levels, you can also reduce/eliminate your acne.

    Unfortunately, that doesn't prevent your body for eliminating the production of DHT (you've only lessened it). So if you have androgenic alopecia or hirsutism your follicles will still respond to whatever DHT levels you are currently producing. That's where the Inhibitors, or better yet the Analogues, come into play. if you combine those with dietary changes, then theoretically, you've got a powerful protocol against the effects DHT.

    I personally have noted the effects of only being on Spiro (and some other hormonal drugs), of being on Spiro and my customized diet, and only being on my diet. The Spiro & Customized Diet was the best combination for my mild hirsutism (did nothing for hair loss), but my diet was the best combination for my acne. So I know I need something that is going to prevent the conversion of DHT (but can by phytoestrogenic), and also Block the effects of DHT. That's why I'm playing around with Saw Palmetto for the moment, but I know the previously mentioned supplements are more powerful (already had it so why not?).

    Oh and most definately a lot of these inhibitors seem to work topically as well. The only concern is using those that don't induce systemic effects for the males. Use of topical green tea and avodart may indeed work since, saw palmetto, beta-sitosterol, Spiro, & Finasteride work topically. Not to mention our more common inhibitors such as RetinA, Azelex, and other topical retinoids, but they don't provide lasting results, hence the want for a transdermal patch huh?

    Have you tried Green Tea yet? That patch experiment does sound interesting, especially over pill popping, but not at that price ;-)

    Thanks

    Last edited by SweetJade1; 05-31-2004 at 05:22 PM.

     
    Old 05-31-2004, 07:32 PM   #15
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    Re: sweetjade1 - THANKS , you are like a genius in the science of ACNE

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by soulman
    Oily skin doesn't necessary cause acne. People with pimples and cystic acne doesn't have oily skin either. It's what happen underneath the skin. I think acne is an internal problem.

    Sexual activities can definitely cause acne, I found that out with masturbation. Sexual activities with a partner might be different to self-indulging but highly unlikely. Interesting that people can have sex very frequently and have no problem with their skin. And they say sexual activities is supposed to be good for you.

    HENCE, WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT.
    I still follow the old addage: masturbation doesn't cause acne, acne causes masturbation. But then again, maybe I just like masturbating.

     
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