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    Old 06-22-2005, 07:11 AM   #16
    boulder21
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by erica1213
    I'm curious to hear proposed solutions, but the first thing that jumps to mind for me is would taking a simple anti-histamine help? Say benadryl?
    Benadryl is first generation anti-histamine.

    You're better off with a 2nd generation anti-histamine:


    loratadine (claritin)
    fexofenadine (allegra)

    And as I said in the previous post vitamin B6 helps the enzyme, diamine oxidase, that processes histamine.

    Last edited by boulder21; 06-22-2005 at 07:12 AM.

     
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    Old 06-22-2005, 09:30 AM   #17
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    So, according to this theory, some people are sensitive to histamines (thus have lots of mild allergies - aka nothing that will kill you necessarily, just discomfort) and one of the symptoms (or allergic reactions) is acne?

    The list of symptoms of this type of person is exactly me. I do think that my acne is hormonal, but there could be other causes that "help" it along.

    So you suggest taking an anti-histamine and seeing if that helps the acne? Just like a claritin or walmart brand claritin (I've taken one or two days in the past but it never helped my itchy eyes, etc).

    Probiotics also help w/ toxins in your system by increasing the good bacteria and getting rid of the bad. It also helps process foods.

     
    Old 06-22-2005, 10:17 AM   #18
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    I just signed up the other day to browse and search these boards and I have come across this very interesting post.

    Out of the criteria you listed:
    1. Definately, I can eat whatever I want... Metabolism is off the charts.
    2. Definately, I need to take in about 3000 - 3500 calories a day to maintain weight.
    3. No allergies as far as I know. I've lived in the desert for my entire life (24 years) and I have had no allergy problems as far as I know, but at the same time I know little to nothing about allergies in general.
    4. All the time, especially coming out into the sun after being inside eating a meal.
    5. Possibly, but nothing extremely obvious.
    6. Hunger pains every 3-4 hours or so. I guess they can get really bad, but I've learned to ignore them.

    So would you classify me as a histadelic? How important is having mild allergies to the diagnosis? I think it would be central as the sensitivity to histamine would also translate to having mild allergies.

    I'm not really sure about the flushing that Boulder described. I couldn't say for sure if I've ever really experienced that.

    Either way, I would definately be interested in hearing more about this theory, and especially possible treatments.

     
    Old 06-22-2005, 10:28 AM   #19
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    all of this is quite a revelation! fascinating theory. so, what would a low histamine diet look like? i can't even begin to think of what a high histamine food might be, aside from the usual food allergy type foods, peanuts, wheat, dairy?

    kk, funny you should mention the rats, that's exactly what i was thinking of! and the tube worms, of course.

     
    Old 06-22-2005, 11:35 AM   #20
    boulder21
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by portrgirl
    So, according to this theory, some people are sensitive to histamines (thus have lots of mild allergies - aka nothing that will kill you necessarily, just discomfort) and one of the symptoms (or allergic reactions) is acne?
    There is a difference between food alergies and intolerances (sensativity). I have no food alergies but when I eat foods high in histamine they turn me red (flush). It's what's known as psuedo allergy, and is why I had allergy tests done. I asked the allergist (an MD) about this theory (connection between flushing and acne) and he said it's very possible. I've found this to be a trigger of acne in my case. It may not be for other people but I've made observations over sereral months in which I've had a reaction to foods high in histamine and a few days later have developed acne.

    See my post on with subject: histamine

    The post makes a link to alcohol and breaking out as I'm sure many have experienced.

    I'm not sure I can list the web sites here as supporting evidence but do some google searches:

    diamine oxidase
    histamine
    histamine sensativity
    alcohol

    and combinations of the above.

     
    Old 06-22-2005, 12:46 PM   #21
    antifaith
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    This is VERY interesting for me.. i happened to be reading about high histamine levels a short while ago and found a site that said these were the most common symptoms:

    Sneeze in bright sunlight?
    Feel you were a shy and over sensitive teenager
    Cry, salivate and feel nauseous easily?
    Hear our pulse in your head on the pillow at night?
    Get referred itching when you scratch your leg?
    Have frequent stomach aches, muscle cramps and back pains?
    Have any easy orgasm with sex?
    Have regular headaches and seasonal allergies?
    Have inner tension and occasional depression?
    Have abnormal fears, compulsions, and rituals?
    Think you are a light sleeper?
    Burns up food rapidly?
    Sometimes have suicidal thoughts?
    Tolerate a lot of alcohol and other downers?
    Have little body hair and lean build?
    Have long fingers and toes?

    This was very alarming to me because when i answered those questions, i found myself saying yes to EVERY one of them. I recently consulted a doctor and he confirmed that i had histadelia.

    This could very well be the cause of my acne. I've done dozens of detoxifications, i eat only the cleanest food and follow a very strict and balanced diet and still have minor breakouts. Everytime i start going to the gym i eat more than usual and instantly breakout so bad that i have to stop after a few weeks. At first i thought it could be the increased testosterone, but i tried to stick to the diet that i follow when i don't go to the gym and I didn't break out at all (the second i started eating more, the breakouts came back).

    The doctor said it's pretty much the kind of condition you're stuck with for your entire life but i couldn't believe that and saw another doctor to get a second opinion. The second doctor said that conventional treatment is to put you on methionine, which is supposed to bind to histamine, and calcium supplementation to flush the new "molecule" ,or whatever you want to call it, that is created after the methionine and the histamine merge together.

    I'm probably going to give that a try and see if it works. Supposedly, it takes 4 to 8 weeks before you see any improvement, and you need to stick to this treatment for at least a year or the imbalance will return.

    I'm very curious to hear your opinion on this "disease" and would love to what your approach you used to cure it.

     
    Old 06-22-2005, 06:17 PM   #22
    kkpb7825
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    Firstly iam very glad to have had such a response. I need to clarify a couple of points that i think may be confusing the issue.

    Histamine is released by cells called mast cells when we come into contact with an allergen, the histamine causes our blood vessels to dilate, and then we flush. The histamine acts on receptors in the walls of the blood vessels, anti-hisamines block these receptors and so prevent the histamine from binding to the receptors. So anti-histamines can prevent flushing.

    Now Acne-Rosacea HAS been linked to this flushing, and i think that if you react to certain foods by flushing then you may have Rosacea rather than acne vulgaris. However flushing does activate sebaceous glands. But It is VERY important to remember that anti-histamines DO NOT lower histamine levels, or decrease its production.

    The reason that this theory is interesting, isnt that histamine can cause flushing that has been known for along time. The interesting thing is the little known LONG TERM effect that slightly (and continuously) raised histamine levels have on cellular metabolic rate.Not simply its effect in the short term on blood vessels.

    The list 'antifaith' mentions is a comprehensive diagnostic list, but you dont have to have all of these signs to be histadelic. Every one will have a few of them more than others. The key point is that histadelia is the only metabolic condition that provides an answer to ALL of our signs.From the diagnostic list; I for example, have very long fingers, i sneeze in the light, have tension and depression, i burn food rapidly and have a lean build.

    The important point is the wide ranging effects that long term raised histamine has on the body in all its systems. The key part is that we burn our foods rapidly, and thus more toxins are produced in our mitochondria, and over a long term period acne results.

    With regard to therapies, there are many options, i dont believe that anti-histamines are one of them though. I have tried them for a long period and i don't think they helped. Some researchers point out that long term use can actually increase histamine levels!

    Firstly, i have spoken to a chinese medical doctor, (chinese medicine argues that acne is due to a rapid metabolic rate) who provided me with two herbal concoctions, one of them was to decrease the toxic load on my liver while the other was to normalise my metabolism. I have also read widely in ayevedic medicine when i was putting this idea together, and interestingly ayevedic doctors say that acne is due to a metabolic 'constitution' called 'pitta'. People with This constitution burn foods extremely rapidly, and so find it hard to put on weight.

    This is all well and good, but now i was asking why? Why are our metabolisms so fast? Then i remembered histadelia, and it all began to fall into place, now you see there is an action step.

    So the 'treatment' that i put myself on was;

    1). the two chinese herbal formulars (that can be purchased from a chinese herbal shop)
    2). Methionine 500mg twice a day
    3). calcium 1500mg per day (and magnesium 500mg)

    4). Alpha lipoic acid 600mg per day, NO less

    THIS ONE is very important, because as 'arock' so rightly pointed out, there was an experiment done on calorie restriction in rats. They found that far less toxins were produced by the rats when they were fed less food, and they lived 30% longer lives. A follow up experiment found that by supplementing the rats with ALPHA- LIPOIC acid and Acetyl L-carnitine at the correct dose they could replicate the effects of calorie restriction without restricting any calories. ALA is also an antioxidant, anti-toxin, it lowers blood sugar and cleans the liver.

    The dose is very important though it has to be enough. (i dont use l carnitine bcos i cant afford too much, and ALA works well for me)

    I also use

    5). MSM 7g per day to help remove toxins from my cells and decrease histamine
    6). Vitamin C 3g per day (stabilizes histamine release from mast cells)

    Some final points, it may not be required to take all these things, i dont know which ones can be left out, all i do know is, and i dont like to make rash comments, because we've all been around the block for so long. But one week after i started ALL thses things together my right cheek became completely clear (it hasn't been like that since i was on accutane (the first time), and my left cheek had 2 very small comedones that normally i wouldn't classify as spots, but i want to be as accurate as possible.

    I am not getting my hopes up, becos i realise things can change at any time, i am currently researching a diet that may help, that involves the ayevedic 'pitta' diet and the avoidance of foods that are high in histadine (the precursor to histamine).

    Oh i nearly left the names of the two herbal formulations, i think that these are very important, and that the rest would still work but may take along time (as 'antifaith' pointed out).

    They are:
    1).pifubing xueduwan; (regulates a rapid metabolism) this contains about 40 herbs per tablet and 40 must be taken a day (each one is tiny)... i know alot, but there doesnt seem to be any side effects, i am under the watch of the doctor, and they don't need to be taken for very long (about a month, but this may vary with the individual)

    2).Skin solution tablet, the herbal toxin remover, contains 7 herbs and 3 must be taken 3 times a day

    Many will now think that is mad, but i am only reporting to you the only regime that has worked for me apart from accutane, now you've read the theory and i encourage you to resaerch this, because i firmly believe that it explains every aspect of our condition for alot of us, but ultimately you must make your own mind up.

    thank you.. please post any more great ideas, because we can all learn from each other
    if you have any more questions, i would be happy to try to answer

     
    Old 06-22-2005, 07:16 PM   #23
    antifaith
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    Any idea where to buy or learn more about this pifubing xueduwan. There are no chinese medicine practitioners anywhere near where i live and would love to learn more about it.

     
    Old 06-22-2005, 08:13 PM   #24
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    This post has made me curious so I did a lot of searching for information on histadelia and topics related to what people have been saying. There are definately a bunch of sites out there discussing histadelia. Many of them are in relation to depression, schizophrenia, and autism. Most of these sites advocate taking 500mg of methionine and 500mg of calcium in the morning and evening for 3-6 months.
    I also found some sites saying that this theory is crap. I did a Medline search, and definately could not find anything in the medical literature about this, but then again we probably all wouldn't be here if we put all of our faith into conventional medicine.
    I think my general philosophy is to be skeptical of everything but closed to nothing.
    I'm currently trying some herbs in an attempt to balance out my hormones, so I'm not sure that I want to add the methionine/calcium right now because then I won't know what if anything is working.
    If any of you out there try this I'd love to hear whether it works for you. I'll be crossing my fingers.

     
    Old 06-23-2005, 04:22 AM   #25
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    ERICA:I also found some sites saying that this theory is crap. I did a Medline search, and definately could not find anything in the medical literature about this

    There are currently medline entries on the accelerating action of chronically high histamine levels on mitochondrial metabolism. The study that 'arock' raised about caloric restriction in rats is well known, as is the study on alpha lipoic acid and acetyl lcarnitine. The concept of the histadelic metabolism has been known in biochemistry for years, but it has always been viewed as 'non- clinically relevant'.

    The connection between metabolic rate and toxin production is confirmed by the rat experiments, and is widely accepted. It is also widely accpeted that acne is linked to excess toxins and insulin resistance (both features of histadelia).

    The connection between a fast metabolism and acne has been accepted in chinese medicine and ayedveda for thousands of years.

    The current paradigm regarding the cause of acne in conventional medicine has not yielded a cure.

    All of these points can not be dismissed, the only question, which is the theory that i have raised is; Is the fast metabolism that is producing toxins and causing acne, due to either chronically high histamine or an irregular metabolic responce to normal levels of histamine?

    THAT is the question, and the answer is important because it can provide possible therapies.

    I also believe that although methionine and calcium are important, they take to long (on their own) to work and at the least should be used INITIALLY with the chinese herbs, to 'get the ball rolling'...

    It has always been known that nutrients like, methionine, zinc, b6 and calcium are beneficial to acne, perhaps it is because they can correct histadelia. They must be taken every day religiously, long term and at suffficient doses. Though i only got real results when i did all the things on the list in my previous reply.

    I SIMPLY CANNOT UNDERSTATE THE IMPORTANCE OF ALPHA-LIPOIC ACID 600MG (divided dose) DAILY. This makes so much sence for the treatment of histadelia, it cleans and regulates the mitochondra, cleans the liver, treats insulin resitance and lowers blood sugar..but is only effective at this minimum dose.

    And antifath, i will look into this and get back to you

    Last edited by kkpb7825; 06-23-2005 at 04:51 AM.

     
    Old 06-23-2005, 07:52 AM   #26
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    Hi kkbp7825,
    Thanks for your response. I certainly hope that you aren't offended by my skepticism-like I said, I'm certainly interested. I am wondering how you know about histadelia to begin with. Do you work in biochem or did you just do your own research, etc.
    I am somewhat unclear on how you made the connection that acne is related (excess toxins of course make sense, but was this your own conclusion or where did it come from-Chinese medicine?)
    Anyway, I'm very excited for you that you've had such great results. I'm just trying to understand all of the pieces and the mechanism.
    ALA is certainly a great supplement, but I've also heard that it helps with insulin resistance, which has also been linked to acne. So I'm just wondering how you can be sure that the problem is actually histamine.
    Regardless, I'm really happy that this method has worked for you, and I'm interested in any other info you have to share.
    Thanks!

     
    Old 06-23-2005, 08:02 AM   #27
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    Interesting...
    I found the following two abstracts:

    Biomed Pharmacother. 1987;41(5):253-4.
    Cimetidine, a histamine H2 antagonist, seems to have anti-androgenic activity. 22 young women were studied during follicular phase prior to and after a 3 month period of treatment with cimetidine (1,200 mg daily). Three month treatment with cimetidine resulted in a significant decrease of seborrheic index (p less than 10(-4)) and casual level (p less than 10(-4)). Testosterone level, TeBG binding capacity and free testosterone were unaffected by the treatment. Cimetidine decrease sebum secretion without change in androgen parameters.

    Hautarzt. 1982 Oct;33(10):521-8.
    H2-antagonists differ from the commonly applied antihistamines (H1-antagonists) by blocking a different spectrum of histamine-mediated pharmacologic reactions. Their effects on the skin as the target organ may be stronger, weaker, or even reverse. The main representative of this group of drugs is cimetidine. Other compounds are still in experimental stages. Some controversial effects were reported in urticaria, pruritus, atopic dermatitis, mastocytosis of the skin, and also in acne and psoriasis. With polyetiologic symptoms, as are manifested in cases of urticaria and pruritus, the efficacy of the drug may depend on the underlying disease. In acne and psoriasis, the clinical type and stage of the disease may also play a major role in the outcome of such studies. Experimental and clinical findings suggest that cimetidine has some immunomodulating effect in terms of influencing the delayed type skin hypersensitivity. The intake of cimetidine should be registered in patch testing. Application of H2-antagonists may be beneficial in diseases with reduced immune resistance (generalized mycotic infections). Serious group-specific side-effects of H2-antagonists are not yet known. Several side-effects have been reported following oral intake of cimetidine; however, their frequency seems rather low.

     
    Old 06-23-2005, 08:06 AM   #28
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    ok, sorry to flood this board, but I'm finding interesting stuff. Apparently Tagamet, which I think is used as an antacid is Cimetidine, an H2 antagonist.

     
    Old 06-24-2005, 05:49 PM   #29
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    kkpb,

    I'm very intrigued by this, because the more I think about it, the more I think I could be histadelic. Before I attempt to locate all the ingredients, I do have some questions that I hope you could answer.

    - What is your acne history? How long have you had it? How severe?
    - How long have you been on this treatment?
    - What is your current acne status? All clear I hope?

    - If cost was not an issue, would you take both ALA and Acetyl L-carnitine? How much Acetyl L-carnitine? Divided dose like ALA?
    - As anitfaith asked, could you please give as much information as possible on the Chinese Herbal Medicines you mentioned? I think that I am going to have a really hard time locating these. Pifubing xueduwan seems to an exact name of a medicine that contains a particular mix of herbs, but I cannot find it online at all. The other medicine seems to be more generic. Could you give us the list of the 7 herbs so that we might find a comparable product?

    Thanks so much for any answers you could provide.

     
    Old 07-06-2005, 05:58 PM   #30
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    Re: ACNE: The New Theory

    Firstly..I am sorry to have taken so long to reply, i have been very busy for the last 2 weeks.

    but i am very interested in the research done by erica. they seem to back up the theory quite well. My initial perspective was that pharmaceutical h2 antagonists would be inaffective, but these two studies seem to suggest that they may actually be affective, especially the first abstract that you posted.

    to answer your questions.
    erica..when i was studying pre-clinical medicine i had to do biochemistry and i came across it then. I was intriged by many of the signs and symptoms of histadelia, because i seemed to have them. Also many of the treatments for histadelia are also treatments for acne, histamine increases metabolic rate and increases toxin (reactive oxygen species..ROS) production, on a cellular level, that is why many people who eat a very healthy diet still get acne, because the problem is with food itself.

    I then learnt about the effects of histadelia on insulin resistance (there is a direct correlation due to chronically increased carbohydrate metabolism), and on modulating the immune system (as mentioned in the second abstract you posted). The ROS causes increased inflammation, and modulation of receptor sites IN THE NUCLEUS of ketatinocytes and sebocytes in the skin. These receptor sites are called peroxisome proliferator activated receptors (PPARs), these receptors work along side...and this is where things get really interesting....thyroid nuclear receptors(thyroid hormone levels affect acne), retinoic acid receptors(where tretinoin and isotretinoin work), vitamin D and androgen receptors. The interaction of these receptors determines the rate at which keratin is shed and at which sebum is produced.

    Both ALA and essential fatty acids act on PPARs, similarly zinc forms a key part of the retinoic acid receptor and without enough zinc vitamin A cannot work to decrease ketatin proliferation.

    With regards to the chinese medical connection. I had a long discussion with a chinese doctor, who described the fact that food itself creates the ROS which cause the acne, because acne sufferers have a genetically fast metabolism. I realised that histadelia also is associated with a rapid metabolism and excessive toxin production, since i have most of the signs of histadelia, my theory was that this could be the cause of the super fast metabolism and hence my acne.

    your last point is a very good one..ALA probably works in many ways, antioxidant increasing insulin sensitivity, and as a positive modulator of PPARs. But all these positive effects oppose the negative effects of histadelia, have your blood glucose checked randomly, in my case it is always slightly high, not diabetic but high, due to the fast carbohydrate metabolism, chronically raised glucose leads to insulin resistance. But the problem isnt insulin, because injecting insulin has been shown to improve acne. Also complete fasting improves acne, thus the problem is high blood sugar levels, where does the sugar come from and why is it too high if you don't eat a sugary diet?

    Now for smites questions..sorry if these answers are not as good as they might be but i am writing this at nearly 2am and am knackered.
    anyway..

    1. i have had acne for 9 years, normally mild-moderate (with antibiotics, tretinoin, niacinomide, azeliac acid and various supplements)..it has been very severe three times, (i have been on isotretinoin twice)

    2. i have just finished 1 month of toxin-histadelia treatment, and need to replenish supplies tomoro. Although the first two weeks of treatment were so sucessful that i got slack on some of the regime (ie. calcium), i mainly take the chinese herbs, methionine (with other liver support), msm, ALA as well as the usual acne supplements.

    3. My current status, (which i measure by how much benzoyl peroxide and cover cream i need in order to go outside) is...i could happily go out with no Bp or cover cream, which is brilliant for me, but i have slacked in the last week, (not taken supps at regular hours, skipping breakfast, pizza, cookies, pizza etc) so i currently have about 4-5 tiny non-inflammatory white heads, (NB 5 weeks ago i wouldn't have considered them spots worth counting).

    4.I have started taking acetyl-L carnitine, because it improves the penetration of ALA into mitochondria to clean it up, at the moment i take 600mg ALA with 400mg Acetyl L carnitine, however i may re-evaluate this
    latter dose soon.


    5. If you want to get the herbal medicines then i suggest you visit a chinese doctor, they arent things to order on-line without first having your toxic load examined by a chinese doctor (they do this by taking an acne history, palpating your pulses and examining your tongue), because the dose is not fixed and they are powerful treatments. The difference between them and other detox herbs is that they dont just cleanse the liver and the blood, but also the cellular mitochondrion as well as regulating your metabolism. the herbs are written in chinese so i cannot write them, but i will see if i can find out for you.


    In the interest of completeness, i will also say that probably the only food group that generally produces the least toxins is green vegetables. I have also noticed that my tolerance to other food groups seems to have changed, i now seem to get tired after eating bread!? i never did before. This may be coincidental. I also use niacinomide gel in the mornings and cetaphil cleanser so that you know.

    Lastly because of the posts by erica i will be adding cimetidine to my daily regime at night. Hope thats ok..
    thanks
    good night

    Last edited by kkpb7825; 07-06-2005 at 05:59 PM.

     
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