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    Old 11-14-2003, 12:40 PM   #31
    Jennita
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    It seems a little extreme here to compare things like foods, aspirin, caffeine and Ritalin! Does anyone risk psychosis from a cheese sandwich or a few cups of coffee? Even alot of coffee...psychosis just wasn't on that list of side effects. But it is for most stimulants like Ritalin.

     
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    Old 11-14-2003, 12:45 PM   #32
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    Vickylyn, could you please tell me what kind of herbs you have tried that made your child worse? Thanks.

     
    Old 11-14-2003, 06:40 PM   #33
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    I'm sorry herbs made your son worse but herbs are not vitamins!! There is a difference there. Many herbs that are sold have negative side effects that you would know about if you did proper research.... A lot of things get sold (expecially on the net) that have been banned from being sold to the general public. I mentioned one of these herbs (skullcap) It is dangerous and yet it is found frequently in remedies sold on the net for ADD/ADHD. (not you personally, just anybody who was to use them) Vitamin supplements are not herbal. These are the safest and healthiest treatment. Some herbs can also be very helpful. But only if you know what you are doing!

    Medications are used all too often as the first line of defense!! Children as young as 2 years old are being put on ritalin, adderall, dex and other medications that are related to cocaine and meth. Many parents use these medications not knowing possible side effects and having no idea that they have other treatment options!!

     
    Old 11-14-2003, 08:19 PM   #34
    gardenglovmm
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    Smile child on meds for add/adhd

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Coopersmom
    My son is 7 and has been on "meds" for eight months, first Adderall, then Concerta and now back to Adderall. My question is has anyone had a child stay on meds all through school? 1st through 12th?

    I am so worried about the long term effect of these medicines. I have read stories from other parents that are glad they put their kids on meds, but, most of those kids were diagnosed when they were teenagers.

    I am working on alternatives to give him, but am wondering if anyone has a story they can share about this journey we are all on with ourselves and our children.

    Many thanks,
    Vanessa
    hi coopersmom,
    i have three children ages 17, 9 and 5. my oldest is my daughter. she has been on & off every type of med for add sinceseventh grade. no long term effects.
    my son is 9 and diagnosed adhd. he has been on med since the start of first grade. also no long term side effects.
    i must tell you, i am a registered nurse, and i had a time fighting this uphill battle to get my kids diagnosis both with the school and medical community. early diagnosis is the ket to finding the medicine, help and support these kids need BEFORE they become depressed(antagonistic and sometimes violent) teenagers with no self esteem. now i have to tell you what has and is working for us. medicine did put a bandaid on the problem for a while. until my daughter took matters into her own hands and stopped taking the drugs(this was one battle).my son does fine on med too. but there are underlying difficulties in school and no help for these kids. a lot of times these kids learn in nontraditional ways which normal classrooms don't support or have the resources to help.i quit my job(not an option for most) and went to school with my son to help before he lost every shred of self esteem. we almost lost our daughter Too.(that's another story.
    finally i found this neuropsychotherapist(psychologist). he does neurobiofeedback treatment.(different than biofeedback) this actually uses modern medical equipement to give a readout of brainwave activity.(non-invasive totally)and in this fashion. not only do you see medical evidence of the adhd or add, it's used as a monitoring devise to retrain the brain to normal brainwave pattern activity. once the brain "sees what it's doing wrong, it falls into the normal brainwave patterns of activity, which is a lot more easy to operate in on a day to day basis. IT WORKED. my daughter has completed a full series of treatment. her gradepoint went up 1 1/2 points cumulative. she is a completely pleasant person to be around as well. i couldn't say that before at all.
    my 9 year old son has statred treatments and after ten so far, i am starting to see a definite change with him as well. not as hyperactive, and starting to think better. my daughter is completely off med. my son is still on, so far. but we hav e some way to go with treatment. sorry this is so long, but my uphill struggle to get my kids help, and see them successful has been so very long. i really had begun to lose hope. things are looking up.
    listen, you parents of add/adhd kids: whatever you are thinking or feeling regarding your kids- i've been there, done that. you're GOOD parents. don't lose hope, allow yourself to feel the feelings good or bad. it's ok. talk to me.... i'll listen.
    meg.

     
    Old 11-14-2003, 08:37 PM   #35
    gardenglovmm
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    hi guys,
    qeeg- qualitative electroencephalogram scans provide definitive diagnosis for adhd/add and brain injury for that matter. they are a noninvasive test that can be done by a neuropsychologist. traditional docs and neurologists are opposed to this.(they'll need to be hit over the head with it first, as well as have the insurance company pay for it before they'll be open to the idea.) neurobiofeedback treatments can be used in conjunction with qeeg scan diagnosis and eeg monitoring to retrain the brain back into it's normal brainwave patterns. it works. i have a 17 year old daughter who is now functioning as if she never had add. my 9 yearold son is in the midst of treatment therapy, and i can already se improvement. he's not off med yet. but may be able to reduce greatly or completely come off med.
    gardenglovmm

     
    Old 11-14-2003, 08:42 PM   #36
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    Thanks for the great info about Neurobiofeedback.
    I think the original poster was talking about anybody have their child on meds, starting 1st grade all the way through highschool. I don't think having kids on stimulant meds below five years is considered "long-term." But I'm not sure. Does anybody know?

     
    Old 11-14-2003, 09:02 PM   #37
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    The truth is we don't know about vitamin supplements either! I heard on the news recently that studies show that they may cause cancer if used over a lengthy time! go figure that...I'll try and find the study when I have more time...
    Are there lengthy studies on these vitamin supplements? because I know they make me so sick to my stomach I have emptied it many times and I am not the only one...I won't even take most of them. They also make my urine a strange colour, makes me wonder what its doing to my kidneys and liver.

    Not that I am trying to knock it, well maybe, but only to point out that just because there are no long term studies on Ritalin (except the one that said they are less likely to be drug addicts as adults [I am sure that study got debunked, and that debunking got answered to ...and on and on till your head spins), it doesn't mean much when there are no long term studies on the alternatives of; caffeine, herbs, or vitamins that say they are reasonably safe over the long term either, and some showing they very well may not be.

    In fact I went into my local health food store (I don't have a credit card to order Be Calm'd on the net), with the list of ingredients and doses, one of the ingredients were not supposed to be given to children at all. However the dose in BeCalm'd was much lower than what is given to adults...so 'it's probably ok' she said. Now how does she really know that? Am I supposed to take her word for it when she just finished telling me it wasn't safe for kids?

    The study on mice that showed the brains changed when on/after Ritalin were given a much higher dose than normally would be given for their size, admitted the researchers. So, if you are willing to give a kid BeCalm'd because the dose is only a fraction, and say it's ok, knowing full well that a larger one would definately not be safe...
    ...and furthermore, what would even be the point of doing a study like that? Why not do the right one in the first place? And who funded it?

    And that Harvard study, why was it only 20 kids, and what was the criteria of selection of such a small group? Especially with no conclusive test for ADD anyway?

    I am honestly not necessarily pro Ritalin, it's just that so many people here are fighting for alternatives, I feel compelled to debate this side of it, since you guys are doing such a good job for the other side

    Anna
    VPM to 1 boy 13, and 4 girls, 7, 5, 2, 1/2 yrs.

    ps, my friend has a son been on Ritalin for several years now, no side effects as of yet.

    Last edited by rasiaca; 11-14-2003 at 09:09 PM.

     
    Old 11-14-2003, 09:47 PM   #38
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    If vitamins cause cancer then your food is killing you. Drink that milk, get that calcium, and die from it. Ya uha I'm soo sure!

     
    Old 11-15-2003, 08:01 AM   #39
    rasiaca
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    sorry I meant vitamin supplements...pills (you see, you had mentioned vitamin supplements not being herbal and therefore better or safer some how) ...but I think you knew that I was referring to supplements for that matter.
    and, don't even get me started on milk, lol.

    Is that your best argument? What is your argument for the BeCalm'd paragraphs? Or do you just turn over the stones that suit you.

    Anna
    ps. looking back I was very careful to reference 'supplements' specifically anyway, so I guess I am not sorry, I meant just what I said!

    Last edited by rasiaca; 11-15-2003 at 09:34 AM.

     
    Old 11-15-2003, 02:14 PM   #40
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    ras, beCalmd is safe. Go research the ingrediants in it. BTW, you shouldn't be one to badmouth other peoples arguements. I actually used that example on purpose because I figured you would come back with some certain info, but you didnt. Ah well....

    So go on tell us, what vitamin is it that causes cancer? Vitamin B complex? Omega3?? BTW for any who don't know neither of these vitamins cause cancer. Come on, don't just make a claim and then try to change the subject to what others are posting.

    Youre post was directed at vitamin supplements, not herbal supplements, your whole point of posting was based around my earlier statement that vitamin supplements and herbal supplements should not be confused in regaurds to safety matters.

    Since you dont seem to really be sure of what you're talking about I'm going to go ahead and explain something.

    There are some vitamin supplements which should not be taken if a patient has cancer. They can interfere with treatments. Vitamin E is one of these. Vitamin E should not be taken daily in large amounts unless recomended by a nutritional therapist as treatment of some illness. This is the supplement that can cause cancer to spread, it can also cause a person to be more vunerable to cancer. Cancer cells absorb vitamin E more rapidly than normal cells. The vitamin E then protects these cancer cells from free radicals making them stronger and able to multiply more rapidly. You can find this information in any good research on this ingrediant. I always tell people to do their research. You have nothing to fear when taking vitamin supplements as long as you know what youre doing. Vitamin supplements are needed by everyone now days, ADD or not. No one in this day and age is getting the nutrition they need. And no one needs to be afraid of taking vitamins.

    Last edited by * Free ~ Spirit *; 11-15-2003 at 02:36 PM.

     
    Old 11-16-2003, 07:53 AM   #41
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    [url]http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/08/1052280363659.html[/url]

    [url]http://archive.mail-list.com/hbv_research/msg05003.html[/url]

    Those are two articles that talk about the brief news clip I heard. It is interesting to note that on the news it just said the title... ' Report highlights downside to long term use of vitamins' (although it mentioned cancer)...it was great to find the link, I finally felt vindicated, however, it is very clear to reference 'excessive' or 'high-end levels' of dosing. It also does say that an appropriate amount of vitamins can easily be attained from a regular healthy diet.

    At any rate, the title of the article, which is what I heard on the radio, was somewhat sensationalized/misleading. Some what of a scare tactic... makes good news I guess.

    I usually do spend a lot of time researching stuff, just ask the people who know me, ok I know you can't, but I do it to the point of freakish. It is an extremely frustrating venture...if you do it properly, and I almost never come to firm opinion on one side of an issue, it just becomes so convoluted after awhile, but I keep at it.

    My health food store clerk did say that one of the ingredients wasn't supposed to be given to kids, I am not even sure which one it is, but what I find on the internet does not say anything interesting, so I will have to get back to that one ...you win for now.

    I do have one point to make though, someone had said that Ritalin causes psychosis, and that the side effects just weren't listed on that particular drug info page. I researched 5 different drug pages, before I found one that said 'psychosis has been reported'. Now, this led to another question, 'how do they know it was the ritalin?' and I found out that there is no proof of that, which is why they can only say 'it has been reported'. ...and quite frankly it stands to reason that some people who have ADD will also have psychotic tendancies, its not an exclusive group I am sure. So I am not convinced of that.

    And my last little point, is that I don't think it gives the same high as coke would, why would they take the time and money to do coke, when they could just pop a pill. It is not as 'hard core' as coke. That's a powerful 'scare tactic' statement as well.

    ...and I am sure of what I am talking about, I was just multi-subjecting in my post, this thread has quite a few things going in it...and I was addressing, herbs, vitamins, ...and now psychosis, etc. I guess I am addressing anything stated as true, when it very well may not be. I am not perfect either, that wasn't my claim, I am glad to have done the added research I did.

    So at this point the only thing I would like you to provide me a link with, is conclusive evidence that you get high from ritalin just as you would coke, and that ritalin, or coke for that matter, causes permanent brain damage. (with exception of death from overdose - too much of anything can kill you, even water, as stated previously)
    Thanks,
    Anna

     
    Old 11-16-2003, 09:17 AM   #42
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    We are not allowed to post links on this message board, unless they end with .gov or .org. If the Moderators see it, you may be banned. Just type in these words in your search engine: Brain Damage Ritalin.
    The Journal of the American Medical Association states, Ritalin is more potent than cocaine. (I guess that's why they call stimulants "Kiddie cocaine.") The drug works to numb kids into submission by blocking 70% of the brain's neurotransmitters, which means close to three quarters of the brain is shut off. Cocaine only blocks 50%.

    Last edited by Palms1; 11-16-2003 at 10:03 AM.

     
    Old 11-16-2003, 03:28 PM   #43
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    Well that is indeed very interesting. Now I just need to find the details of the study that concluded it. I must admit I am being persuaded here. Thanks for your time, but if anybody from the Ritalin camp wants to participate here, then fell free to jump in anytime now,although you guys are propbably sick of this debate by now I am sure....going back to my researching of studies.
    Anna
    ps, has anybody had experience with Ritalin, in which it worked for a few weeks, but tapered off? My son's teacher initially said it was like a light bulb being turned on, although he hated using that analogy. Now he is saying 'so-so'...
    ...also, if nuerofeedback is successful, then how does that tie in with it being a genetic problem?

    Thanks,
    ANna

     
    Old 11-16-2003, 05:38 PM   #44
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    Hi Anna, I have also been on your side of the fence when I joined this board and I used to be very pro-drugs. The neverending pressure from school about my son's behaviour made me weak and I finally gave it a try. My son was on a stimulant like Ritalin (Metadate CD) and was very successful on it and after two months he received "The Most Improved Student Award" of the school. And that's where it all ended. After only two months it seemed to stop working, we upped the dose to the maximum, that didn't help either. After that came trials with just about any drug in the book, including Strattera. Nothing worked. We have tried about 7 different stimulants over a period of 2 1/2 years when I finally said, enough is enough,my son won't play guinea pig anymore. That's when I started to do more research on the subject and the dangers involved. I have also lost a lot of trust in the doctors, who so freely prescribe stimulants to children younger than 6, even though the FDA states that most of the stimulants, with a few exceptions, are not for children under age 6. The youngest child I've heard of was 18 months!!! I am also appalled that these drugs are prescribed in much higher doses than approved by the FDA. The explanation that was given to me by my doctors was: "Some people just have a higher metabolism". But does that justify giving someone 80 mg of a drug, when the FDA approves only 40 mg to be "safe?"
    I am trying the supplement route right now, after researching more about the importance of brain nutrients. This can be a very long road to success. One doctor stated, it can take from 6 to 24 months to get an "undernourished" brain to its "normal" stage. In my son's case, I do believe it has something to do with nutrition. I am willing to take this long route, along with taking my son out of public school and placing him in an alternative school with a different teaching approach. I'll keep you updated how this turns out. This is my last hope. But no matter what, I will NEVER put him on stimulants again.

     
    Old 11-16-2003, 05:55 PM   #45
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    ras,

    Thanks for the links!

    People can get the same high with stimulant meds as they do with cocaine. They don't pop the pill as you put it though. They have to crush it into powder and snort it to get the high. It may not be quite as intense but it's pretty close. I'm not just guessing that this is the case, infact I know many people who used crack/cocaine and they were the ones who told me this.

    Stimulant medications DO cause psychosis. It is a rare but very disturbing side effect. It is more common with adderall and dexedrine but also happens occasionally with ritalin. Those who have co-occuring problems, were misdiagnosed, or are extremely sensitive or even allergic to ritalin are the ones most likely to suffer from psychosis as a ritalin side effect, but it can happen to anyone and people should be aware of it. I know that at the present time psychosis is listed as a rare side effect on the information sheets pharmacies give out with several of the stimulant medications.

    Also, you are asking to see proof that ritalin causes brain damage, well how about showing some proof that it doesnt? There is no proof for either side. There are studies that have been done. Some support one belief while others support the opposite belief.

    The thing is, ritalin does cause brain damage similar to damage seen in those who have abused cocaine. This does not happen to everybody who takes ritalin, nor does every cocaine addict suffer from brain damage. There is just no way to tell which child is vunerable to this type of brain damage.

    There is really no good reason to take any sort of medication if there is a safer way to treat it. Some people have no choice over the issue, all other treatments either have failed, or not been available, or the case is very severe and the patient was in need of help ASAP. It just makes sense to try the safest treatment first and move on if those are not successful.

     
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