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    Old 05-03-2004, 12:13 PM   #31
    andybanandy
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    thanks for all your replies
    sorry i was away for a while, i was banned for accidently posting a site adress :P


    i have a question though.
    some of you say that retalin can hurt your organs, such as your heart and liver.
    is there a way to lessen the chance of this hapening?
    such as, not drinking alcohol (liver) or doing lots of cardiovascular exercise (heart).
    kind of a stupid question, but, can it?

     
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    Old 05-05-2004, 03:16 PM   #32
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    First off, I have a few questions for you people that have been mentioning 'death' or 'terrible things' from stimulant drug medications. You give people advice by saying 'learn to concentrate' or get over it. Well let me ask you, do any of you have ADHD/ADD abd know how it impacts every aspect of your thoughts and actions? Probably not. Once again, the liberal media and so many people who have not an educated clue as to what they are saying sound their horns louder than ever in essence to these disorders. And ritalin death. If you would, i would love for you to be able to show some scientific or official proof that these drugs have caused death. Good luck with that, because there are none. Someone dies that was on ritalin, and all the sudden everyone goes hysterical blaming this awful drug for it. People die all the time, just because they are on something doesn't mean that is why. I am ADHD-combination, and I have extinsively done research on the drugs. I currently take them, and I was given the prescription from an 'ADD psychiatrist' who has been taking Dexedrine since the 70s. Guess what? He ain't dead yet. Some of these have been used since close to the beginning of the century. If these drugs were soooo deadly, then why not only would they be FDA approved, but also probably the #1 prescribed medications in children in America? That's because they are not deadly, and people like you only do more damage by scaring the living hell out of people into not taking the medication, and therefore down the road become even worse than they already are. If you are gonna bring you 'unyielding wisdom' to the table, be able to do it in truth. I'm sure mustangz or whoever, that said you had a heart attack is a complete lie. If you did, you were probably snortin, sniffin or some other new and interested digestion of the drug. Maybe you had heart problems in the first place. I have talked to cardiologist, doctors, psychs, nuerologist, and they have all told me it will not affect my heart. Good thing they know the truth, because there sure are a lot of you people out there that think a plant or nutrient is the key to everything. I thought we had moved on since native american culture, but I guess not. I always remember though: THOSE WHO MAKE THE MOST NOISE ARE USUALLY THE LEAST INFORMED

     
    Old 05-05-2004, 04:24 PM   #33
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    i should say that despite my own liberal and naturopathic tendencies, i strongly agree with the very exciteable last poster that ritalin can be considered extremely safe.

    otherwise, i'll ignore much of what he said because it seemed inappropriately personally confrontational.

    but just one thing i've got to respond to - personally i think the
    'liberal media' is a giant myth. i would say the medical establishment is probably much more liberal than any media in this country. for that matter, many of the people who most noisily rail against ritalin are decidely not liberal. some groups of people who often seem generally opposed to stimulant treatment:

    1. religious fundamentalists of many different shades
    2. those who don't trust government regulatory agencies (fda, etc)
    3. people who think public schools are the strong-arm of the state
    4. those who think add is a name given to traditionally rambunctious children (ie boys will be boys), etc.

    in my opinion this is not at all a partisan issue....
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    Old 05-05-2004, 04:29 PM   #34
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by UARebel
    First off, I have a few questions for you people that have been mentioning 'death' or 'terrible things' from stimulant drug medications. You give people advice by saying 'learn to concentrate' or get over it. Well let me ask you, do any of you have ADHD/ADD abd know how it impacts every aspect of your thoughts and actions? Probably not. Once again, the liberal media and so many people who have not an educated clue as to what they are saying sound their horns louder than ever in essence to these disorders. And ritalin death. If you would, i would love for you to be able to show some scientific or official proof that these drugs have caused death. Good luck with that, because there are none. Someone dies that was on ritalin, and all the sudden everyone goes hysterical blaming this awful drug for it. People die all the time, just because they are on something doesn't mean that is why. I am ADHD-combination, and I have extinsively done research on the drugs. I currently take them, and I was given the prescription from an 'ADD psychiatrist' who has been taking Dexedrine since the 70s. Guess what? He ain't dead yet. Some of these have been used since close to the beginning of the century. If these drugs were soooo deadly, then why not only would they be FDA approved, but also probably the #1 prescribed medications in children in America? That's because they are not deadly, and people like you only do more damage by scaring the living hell out of people into not taking the medication, and therefore down the road become even worse than they already are. If you are gonna bring you 'unyielding wisdom' to the table, be able to do it in truth. I'm sure mustangz or whoever, that said you had a heart attack is a complete lie. If you did, you were probably snortin, sniffin or some other new and interested digestion of the drug. Maybe you had heart problems in the first place. I have talked to cardiologist, doctors, psychs, nuerologist, and they have all told me it will not affect my heart. Good thing they know the truth, because there sure are a lot of you people out there that think a plant or nutrient is the key to everything. I thought we had moved on since native american culture, but I guess not. I always remember though: THOSE WHO MAKE THE MOST NOISE ARE USUALLY THE LEAST INFORMED
    Wow, well, than it all must be a lie; all the professionals like Dr. Anne Tracy, Peter Breggin, Dr. Fred Baughman, Joesph Glenmullin and a host of others too many to mention must really be really uninformed. Mustangz must be just bored. I guess Lawrence T. Smith just imagined his son died and that coroner who found the heart damage typical of stimulant use was imagining as well. You sure figured it all out.

    You know, there are worse things than death, like really bad health problems/conditions and manic or depression problems that these drugs can cause....look at the adverse effects list and they are alot of health risks associated with stimulants other than outright death.

    Stimulants are, plain and simple, uppers. You can't re-label cheese as crackers. Euphoria doesn't always mean hallucinations or flying high. Sometimes it just means mood changes, abnormal thinking, nervousness, drug dependancy/tolerance. Look, poison is poison; smaller amounts aren't as deadly but still will cause damage. We could justify smoking a few cigarettes occassionally as being safe but it's risky just the same to our lungs. Time will tell.

    That ADD psychiatrist you mentioned, I suppose he is also the picture of health??? If you say yes, how do we know for sure, I mean, if someone can come here and claim they had a heart attack from Ritalin, someone can come here and claim vibrant health from it as well. So who's the liar? MustangZ? Why should we believe any of your claims either......

     
    Old 05-05-2004, 04:32 PM   #35
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    btw: i didn't intend to discredit any of the above groups. not to mention that there are a huge number of people opposed to or skeptical of stimulants that do NOT fit into those categories.
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    Old 05-05-2004, 05:05 PM   #36
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    It has often been known in the past that many professionals in all sorts of fields have biased opinions in one way or another. As I said, professionals. Althought they are professionals, does not mean that their opinions are always correct. For example, many people opposed the Vietnam War, and demonstrated protests. Then again, these same people, of whom many if not pretty much all had never been to Vietnam and nor did they have a real sense of the purpose. Even further back, around the time of the 1400s-1492, it was known or assumed by many prominent leaders that the world was flat. It Columbus or others sailed it, they would die. Yet then again, a lack of proof. They had not been to the other side, it was just a way of proving to people how affective it could be to spread mass-hysteria or simple doubt. These doctors you named, where do they do research? A lot of these health professionals believe that since it is a controlled substance, it is automatically cocaine. But, the main reason it is a class 2 drug, is because of the wide use of it during the 60s. Dexedrine was a widely used weight loss drug, and people were often using several hundred milligrams a day. That is the real reason why the government moved it to this control group, not because of its deadly nature. Also, If you would like, Doctors such as Kevin R. Murphy, John J. Ratey, and Edward Hallowell describe in their works the safety of the drugs. THESE doctors have done research, and overseen research, and clearly know the effects, as opposed to many who saw in a magazine that some kid snorted adderall in a bar. Prominent cardiologists in the southeast such as Brian McGwier and Edward Robinson have also clarified that there is no deadly danger from the drugs to the heart. Doctors and other professionals can say and feel as they like, but if you browse medical research centers such as the University of Mass. Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, you will find that the doctors who are in favor of the safety are the ones who have actually done the research, and therefore the ones who actually know what they are talking about.

     
    Old 05-05-2004, 05:11 PM   #37
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    just a friendly suggestion - if you're serious about what you are saying, you might stay away from the unrelated political stuff. it alienates someone like me agrees with you about ritalin but, as the son of a vietnam veteran who was very active in the anti-war movement, is deeply offended by your comments.
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    Old 05-05-2004, 05:21 PM   #38
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    I'm sorry about doing that--that's one way ADHD affects me, I start thinking of things so fast that i put down the first references or resources that come to mind and don't think about it....I'll try to avoid the politcal fiasco stuff in the future---cut me a little bit of slack, I am from Alabama

     
    Old 05-05-2004, 07:49 PM   #39
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by UARebel
    It has often been known in the past that many professionals in all sorts of fields have biased opinions in one way or another. As I said, professionals. Althought they are professionals, does not mean that their opinions are always correct. For example, many people opposed the Vietnam War, and demonstrated protests. Then again, these same people, of whom many if not pretty much all had never been to Vietnam and nor did they have a real sense of the purpose. Even further back, around the time of the 1400s-1492, it was known or assumed by many prominent leaders that the world was flat. It Columbus or others sailed it, they would die. Yet then again, a lack of proof. They had not been to the other side, it was just a way of proving to people how affective it could be to spread mass-hysteria or simple doubt. These doctors you named, where do they do research? A lot of these health professionals believe that since it is a controlled substance, it is automatically cocaine. But, the main reason it is a class 2 drug, is because of the wide use of it during the 60s. Dexedrine was a widely used weight loss drug, and people were often using several hundred milligrams a day. That is the real reason why the government moved it to this control group, not because of its deadly nature. Also, If you would like, Doctors such as Kevin R. Murphy, John J. Ratey, and Edward Hallowell describe in their works the safety of the drugs. THESE doctors have done research, and overseen research, and clearly know the effects, as opposed to many who saw in a magazine that some kid snorted adderall in a bar. Prominent cardiologists in the southeast such as Brian McGwier and Edward Robinson have also clarified that there is no deadly danger from the drugs to the heart. Doctors and other professionals can say and feel as they like, but if you browse medical research centers such as the University of Mass. Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, you will find that the doctors who are in favor of the safety are the ones who have actually done the research, and therefore the ones who actually know what they are talking about.
    Dr. Peter Breggin, for example, always quotes research in his writings. Research for/against can be quoted till doomsday because there is always some on both sides. Needless to say, however, the majority of research (not all but most) is paid for by drug companies. I came across an internet application for research grants from Eli Lilly and I thought it was interesting how they noted on it that anyone applying should keep in mind the interests of the company....

    This is not conspiracy theory.... right now there's a whole stink about the discovery of the unpublished clinical trials which showed unfavorable results of antidepressant therapy for children. This was recently all over the news if you missed it. The favorable ones got published in all those medical journals that doctors' you mentioned read up on. There would be no other type of research than this if it wasn't for, thank goodness, independant research but money is harder to come by so there is no doubt alot less to read about any negative effects of prescription mind drugs.

    Nobody has to lie, just manipulate.

    If you want some proof of biological disease, there should be a biological test. Lets take diabetes, which is a very popular comparison to mental disorders. If you have symptoms indicating diabetes, your doctor takes blood to determine if your sugar is within certain known and long proven healthy levels. If it turns out you have it, you are required to home monitor your sugar to regulate how much medication you need. So, where's the biological dopamine test and what are your levels? How do they change during the day? Are you getting just the right amount of medication according to those levels? Gee, if dopamine is what you need, what's up with Strattera anyway? The insulin issue is pretty solid, not much mystery/experimentation going on there.

    You see, they don't play by the same rules as biological diseases yet they want to be in the same ballpark. All they have is the fact there have been studies on how drugs effect the brain; gosh, even LSD experiments from the 1960's showed a favorable outcome when they discovered a nice side effect of it was extreme happiness due to serotonin release. So, it was assumed sad people were lacking serotonin....wow, how scientific is that. No proof, just happy people with small doses of LSD to thank. Nevermind sadness could quite possibly be due to external factors or bad health/pain/sleep/energy. They quickly started to develop simular drugs....I'm sure in the beginning the motive were pure but these days it's clear money comes first.

    That's why I think they really don't know what they are talking about.

     
    Old 05-05-2004, 07:58 PM   #40
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by muztang777
    I'm sure mustangz or whoever, that said you had a heart attack is a complete lie. If you did, you were probably snortin, sniffin or some other new and interested digestion of the drug. Maybe you had heart problems in the first place.
    I WISH IT WAS A LIE.... 3 DAYS IN THE HOSPITAL'S ICU WASN'T FUN EITHER..I WAS NOT SNORTING SNIFFIN OR ANYTHING OF THE SORT... I WAS TAKING DEXEDRINE SPANULES 75 MLS ONCE A DAY FOR MY ADD.. BEFORE ALL OF THIS HAPPENED MY HEART WAS JUST FINE... I GUESS I SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID NEVER TAKE IT.. BUT I'M JUST STILL MAD AT THE DOCTOR THAT HAD ME ON SUCH A HIGH DOSE.. THE WITHDRAWLS WERE HELL... I JUST WOULD HATE TO SEE ANYONE GO THROUGH WHAT I DID... I'M JUST BITTER, AND NEED TO CHILL....SORRY IF I OFFENDED ANYONE... HUGS, ANNE
    You have every right to your bitterness! Too bad if someone else doesn't believe you, you know what you suffered! You keep on telling people as I know you are helping others

     
    Old 05-05-2004, 09:39 PM   #41
    UARebel
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    The biggest thing that bothers me is the fact that so many people do not want to consider ADD/ADHD a REAL disorder. And the fact that there is no biological examination to prove it is falce. The root is 3 nuerotransmitters that are insufficient in amount located in the brain: dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine. Research, including PET scan, CAT scan, SPECT and MRI studies, have demonstrated that the brains of people with ADHD are measurably different than others. There differences are the bases for problems which place people with ADHD in a great disadvantage in many circumstances. If you do not believe that this is a provable disorder, i challenge you to go look up research and other information at the American Psychiatric Association and look at different results from different brains. And to add with that being a real disorder, it needs real medication. One shouldn't have to spend his entire life feeling a sense of emptiness, even though people around him are constantly saying, get motivated! Well, maybe he very well can't. If someone has diabetes, they should take insulin. Imagine how diabetics would feel if a group of people always went around saying insulin is not the answer you could die! So before so many people assume that add and its medications are a myth, do more research, and I assure you that you will find that it is very much so real.

     
    Old 05-06-2004, 12:17 AM   #42
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by UARebel
    The biggest thing that bothers me is the fact that so many people do not want to consider ADD/ADHD a REAL disorder. And the fact that there is no biological examination to prove it is falce. The root is 3 nuerotransmitters that are insufficient in amount located in the brain: dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine. Research, including PET scan, CAT scan, SPECT and MRI studies, have demonstrated that the brains of people with ADHD are measurably different than others. There differences are the bases for problems which place people with ADHD in a great disadvantage in many circumstances. If you do not believe that this is a provable disorder, i challenge you to go look up research and other information at the American Psychiatric Association and look at different results from different brains. And to add with that being a real disorder, it needs real medication. One shouldn't have to spend his entire life feeling a sense of emptiness, even though people around him are constantly saying, get motivated! Well, maybe he very well can't. If someone has diabetes, they should take insulin. Imagine how diabetics would feel if a group of people always went around saying insulin is not the answer you could die! So before so many people assume that add and its medications are a myth, do more research, and I assure you that you will find that it is very much so real.
    But, you didn't ask me if I thought ADD was real. It's definately real in my opinion..... only I do not believe those differences in brain activity/learning processes is a real disease. Difference does not=disease. Biologically, we have many differences that sometimes run in groups.....shall we claim people who are left-handed are diseased individuals? Most ADDer's are visual spartial learners from what I've read; this collides with traditional teaching methods. It's probably alot like left brain/right brain users....different, not diseased. It just happens that ADD is not accomodated in our society. Hopefully that will change.

    I also cannot tell you how many times I've read about the high IQ's these kids have.....certainly this is not disease in need of medication! And one of my issues is that stimulants are not medication....they are drugs that can speed up the brain....alot more powerful than caffeine which most people think is so horrible for health. Caffeine is incredibly weak in comparison yet we are warned by the medical community to watch for the smallest amounts of it in foods and drink...really now.

    Well, I am interested in all this because my nephew was diagnoised with ADD. He first took Adderall. This helped him in school, but after awhile some personality changes occured. This normally sensitive, sweet boy was yelling/ordering at his dad in front of me one day; another day he didn't want to sit next to his mother(whom he adores). Also, after he started meds, he always had a stomachache(listed effect) But it was when he started crying for no reason(emotional lability) his dad went back to the doctor for advice.

    Strattera was the magic answer. It worked well for awhile, his moods got better. But soon, the fatigue/sleep side effects kicked in, and would not go away. He was tired all the time. The doctor's answer was to try and up the dose and see. My brother-in-law decided no they won't see.....

    Now he's off all meds. He is the sweet kid we knew before, and seems happier. School? Well, a new teacher seemed to connect with his needs and he is getting good grades, something that was supposedly impossible without meds. His younger brother started to have reading problems; instead of going to a doctor, the parents hired a tutor, which is working out beautifully.

    My ADD nephew is fine; he plays sports, is learning violin. Yes, it's possible without meds. And yes, his ADD was quite real. I don't disagree about it's existance at all....just it's definations according to the psychiatric community and the use of unhealthy drugs.

    Last edited by Jennita; 05-06-2004 at 12:19 AM.

     
    Old 05-06-2004, 02:21 PM   #43
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    You can in NO WAY compare diabities/insulin to ADD/ritalin. Its completely ridiculous. If people dont take their insulin they die. No one dies from lack of ritalin. ADD isnt caused by a methylphenidate deficiancy.

    Besides that, lots of people have differences in their brains. Males vs Females brains are different. Lots of things can effect brain scan results. Dr Amen admits that a scan taken of his friends brain(his friend whos former scan showed normal activity) showed activity that looked the same as a brain high on cocaine. His friend was not on any drugs. He was infact in love. So many things effect results. It is also a fact that highly intelligent people have different brain chemistry. So, does this mean that they have a disease? NO!

    Some children do have pre-frontal shut down problems, they may or may not need treatment. But the current treatment (stimulants) can be dangerous. Safer treatments should be sought out.

    Most children diagnosed with ADHD dont even have the true disorder. They just show symptoms or traits and therefor are assumed to have ADHD, and are drugged for it. While their may be a small group who really has a problem what about the rest who dont? Those who are being given these medications needlessly? These medications can cause long term side effects. Many of these children who are normal but misdiagnosed with ADHD and medicated, later develope serious problems caused by the medication. Normal kids turned abnormal by "treatment" of a disorder that they never had in the begining... it is sad and happens all the time. Stimulants are also dangerous for those who have true ADHD, and should be avoided if at all possible. However, there may be a small group of children - a very small group - who do not respond to any other treatment. That could change though, if other treatments were made widely available. Things like biofeedback should always be tried before stimulants, yet it is not widely available, so most never even get a chance to try it.

    And to whoever said that muztang777 is lying, how dare you!! muztang777 is not a liar, and attacking someone just because they speak the truth is not only foolish, but malicious as well. muztang is not a liar. It seems as though most people would rather believe all the negative things are lies. Maybe the truth is too scary. After all who wants to believe that a medication they are giving their child may cause heart damage, psychiatric problems, and more? The truth is just too hard to deal with for some people, but that does not make it OK for people to tell those of us who share the truth that we are liars.

     
    Old 05-06-2004, 02:53 PM   #44
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    As an adult with ADD I am a bit frustrated by how so often a conversation like this one turns into a discussion about medicating children. ADD is a lifelong condition.

    There is no doubt that ADD becomes especially visible in creative kids with high IQs. But I think this is largely because these kids are not expected to struggle or to fail and so their ADD is really glaring. From what I have read, ADD does not actually correlate to high-IQ and it makes me wonder about those who are missed because they are at a social disadvantage and thus never expected to succeed in the first place. I do appreciate attempts to make ADD appear as a positive trait by calling it a difference in brain-chemistry or learning style, but in my experience this does not hold up. If this were true, it would mean that all of the pathology associated with ADD would be nothing more than a frustrated response to social expectations. Clearly ADD cuts across all social lines, among people who live in very very different cultures (in this country alone) with very different social expectations.

    FreeSpirit is absolutely right that a wider range of treatments should be explored and made available. But isn't this always true of any disease or condition? Why does this conversation about medication always have to be so polarized? I choose not to take stimulants, but I also don't believe there is federal or drug-company conspiracy to cover up extreme risks of psychosis or heart disease. I am friends and family with many doctors and I have a sense for how they are taught to think and so I am prone to trust them. Sure I do believe bad things can happen in response to Ritalin, but I think they're rare and may be a perfectly acceptable risk. It just takes good information to assess that risk. And while I choose other ways to manage my ADD, I am well aware that this is a result of my own personal philosophy - I know I don't have the truth anymore than anyone else does, I'm just really interested in and committed to holism. It feels right to me. But I also know a handful of people who have made well-informed, carefully regulated and ultimately succesful choices to use Ritalin, other stimulants or other psychotropic medications.

    Sometimes it seems what is really being discussed here is peoples' distaste for imposing parental or administrative will on children and also the freedom and integrity of medical information in the light of corporate influence. To me at least, it makes much more sense to talk about strategies for how to navigate such a wide range of conflicting opinions (ie. ritalin = death, ritalin = harmless). I find it ironic, as ADDers often have alot of trouble coping with ambiguity, and yet in this situation, the truth is so clearly in the ambiguity between these extremes.

    ps. I have to admit I was surprised that UArebel didn't get banned for his attack, but then this is the internet and anonymity does mean you must take any claim with a grain of salt. He's no less rude for doing so though.
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    Old 05-06-2004, 03:27 PM   #45
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    Re: can retilin hurt you?

    ADD as a true disorder is not related to learning styles. ADD symptoms ARE related to learning styles. Children with certain types of learning styles are misdiagnosed with ADD/ADHD daily. These children would do well if they were taught using their correct learning styles. ADD children will NOT show satisfactory improvement by just teaching using methods of their specific learning styles.

    Theres also the debate that ADD kids are just right brained. Again, many right brained people show symptoms of ADD and are wrongly diagnosed as being "diseased" Being right brained does not equal ADD. Someone can have ADD whether they are left brained or right brained. Right brained children who DO NOT have ADD are commonly diagnosed with it though.

    People with high IQs many times have a brain chemistry different than that of the general population. They may show ADD symptoms and be diagnosed with it and medicated improperly! (of course that doesnt mean that its not possible to have a high IQ & ADD)

    For those who have ADD as a true disorder there is nothing positive about it.

    People who show ADD symptoms but do not have ADD have many positive traits along with their ADD traits.

    As for these negative effects of ritalin being rare, well they may be rare in those who have true attention deficit disorder, but they are not so rare in the many children who dont have it and are wrongly medicated due to different learning styles, brain chemistry(high intelligence for example), and misdiagnosis in general.

     
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