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    Old 12-31-2003, 06:35 AM   #16
    sadsister
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Mich-
    Thats a pretty intense thread...Ok the 'straight dope'..as they say..Detox is not the worst thing that could happen to you.
    But-your weaning off the sub is not going to work.Way too fast-and you'll be on the hydro's immediately.
    Detox is compleately anonymous..no one will know..a private institution(out of state/vicinity..if you are worried.What im saying is:this doesn't just go away..we are addicts..and this disease doesn't discriminate.
    Detox(ive been in 5 programs) also does not mean its over-its just a jumpstart.
    My husband is a teacher..a wonderful one i might add-that is highly respected in our community and had to go to detox several times.He ran into staff members that he knew-and there was complete anonymity.They are professionals..like your psych/dr.
    There is no shame in getting off drugs/its worse trying to keep up the double life..as i well know!
    Im trying to be honest and helpful-not judgemental-you have depression issues that ecaserbate the addiction.
    Look into some differant programs..choose the right place for you..private hospitals may keep you on your xanax,etc...or use a substitute.
    If this all seems too much-please find a new sub dr. and don't worry about about trading one addiction for another-this is a step toward recovery.
    If you want the xanax and want off the sub-detox is the way to go..off the opiates and on the psych program.
    Hope this helps..
    Heather

     
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    Old 12-31-2003, 07:39 AM   #17
    John 808
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Hey ya'll- thank you so much for taking the time to write words of support and encouragement. Sometimes, I can't wait to get upstairs to the computer because I know I will feel better after reading all of your posts.

    Good to hear from you Ric! I wish you the very best in your sugery and recovery- I would try not to even worry about the pain med issue right now (I know that is hard to do). You have so much legitimate pain to deal with right now. My prayers are certainly with you.

    Well, everyone posted to stick with the sub and I decided to taper with the hydro's. My reasoning is that the sub stays in your system longer and I am going to ask Phil to help me with a taper and stick to it. I have cold-turkey once and I can make it if I make through the first 72 hours physically and my husband and I will just have to time it where I will take my last few crumbs on a Friday so he can tend to the babies. After that, I will have to find some meetings or a sponsor to help mentally and my husband is going to try to put a block on the computer to keep internet pharmacies out of my reach. It is do this or ship off to a hospital for three months and I CANNOT AND WILL NOT DO THAT- I will fight this with every ounce of being that I have and I will beat this because I will not leave my babies for that long. My five year old woke in the night with a 103 fever and then my one year old has learned to crawl out of her crib, so she was up half the night and they both want their mommy....what if I wasn't there? My husband could sleep through a tornado- he never hears them cry- what if I wasn't there and my five year old was left crying in her bed with a 103 fever- forget that! I will do this- I have to do this- I have no choice but to do this. So bear with me guys...I'll probably be on here alot "venting" alot and needing your support.

    Phil or anyone else who has any advice on a taper- I have 116 Norcos (have taken 4 since 2:00 am- which is great for me- I would have normally had 10 by now). I NEED SOME ADVICE! I don't want to clean up this morning and the house is a wreck since my one year old can climb out of her crib and desroy things...I am going to have to make myself get up and get going. Oh and my father called wanting to talk- they sense that something is up. I don't think I have the heart to tell them though- I think I will let them think I am tapering off my sub. It would break their hearts. I suck as a daughter, huh? I have disappointed them one too many times.

    Take care ya'll- thanks for your help. I know I may be choosing a path that some of you disagree with, but, I have to try what I feel like is going to be the easiest. I hope ya'll don't fuss at me too bad!

    I hope you, Spark, feel better today! Heather, thanks for your advice! Banker, continued success on your journey to a healthy life! If I forgot anyone, I am just tired and starting to cry...so let me go.

    Michelle

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 08:02 AM   #18
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    It's o.k... you can do it. Your reasons for choosing the hydros make sense and we are all behind you. Hey, I was thinking about you on my way to work today and thought about something that might also work. If you husband had FULL control of all of the credit cards, that would also eliminate you ordering online. The $$ issue had a lot to do with me quitting because I could not continue spending all of the money. If you don't have the money to spend, the only other way you can get them is through your docs and I would consider calling them and telling them that you've had an allergic reaction to hydro and not to give you that anymore... Just an idea. That's what I did to my Gyno so I couldn't get anymore from him. My other doc, I simply told the truth to and that was a horrible experience... admitting to someone that you've lied to them. It was horrible! Anyway, I got through it though and you will get through all of this too. I'm VERY proud of you for doing this without having to be on Sub. People who just stop abusing without sub/meth are amazing to me and I have so much respect for. The sub has been REALLY easy for me to stop so I don't feel like I've accomplished very much. Again, i'm alot happier though. Anyway, one years old and climbing out of the bed? What are you doing to do? My 18 month old doesn't climb out yet... Thank goodness. I'd be in trouble! Keep up the wonderful work!!!! I know you can do it and remember what everyone says... take it an hour at a time if you have to.

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 09:17 AM   #19
    Murphy555
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Michelle

    I just read you post and certain parts of this really bothered me.
    So we went on sub at about the same time.
    I'm not sure why you went off sub and back on a hydro binge. Could you explain more of that (or maybe you did, I just haven't read the full thread yet).

    OK, then you got re-upset after getting back on the sub because you feel you are going from one addiction to another. Is there any possible way that you can look at this switchover from a positive perspective rather than a negative?
    I used to look at this (and still do sometimes, Michelle) just like you.
    It's going to be tough to withdraw from or get off, so what's the point.
    I'm still a slave to a drug.
    And especially reading alot of posts on here lately; the fear and anxiety of knowing this.
    Is it possible NOT to worry about the future with suboxone? If it's working for you, helping you in the long run, gotten you away from taking 300 pills in such a short time, I can only see that as a good thing.
    Also, try to remember that everyone's chemistry is different. Some may have a very bad time getting off suboxone, others not so bad. It varies about as much as those either getting sick or not when they first start suboxone!
    It's not too predictable.
    But even if you're facing horrible withdrawals next year - well that's next year and if you spend 365 days worrying about the day you're going to stop, it's counterproductive.
    I try and think positively right now - it's a new year. I'm not chasing pills. I have an appointment with my Dr. in an hour (soon it will be monthly if i want it to be). So that's one issue, and it's an issue that's increasing your anxiety.

    2nd, is there anyway you can find another sub Dr. I think your Dr. is being very unreasonable in conflicting with your own psychiatrist and not allowing you to take xanax. YES, xanax and the benzos are very addictive, and whether you abuse them or not, you will ppossibly have worse withdrawals coming off that, than you would with suboxone!! But why do you have to fix something it it ain't broke??? You are being prescribed xanax for a medically necessary reason, and first for your Dr. to tell you it's illegal to combine with xanax - that's a lie! It's not appropriate for a Dr. to lie to his patient. But even if he knows it's not illegal, it's easy to see that he will not prescribe both to you.

    We're actually in such similar positions, except noone is pressuring me to get off klonopin. All I got from my sub Dr. was a warning that if I take too many klonopin, it can be very sedating (which I've learned) but 1-3/day he said nobody has ever had a problem except if they were taken in in mass amounts and sub. A few fatalities.

    It also bothers me that your Dr. has told you that xanax is the most addictive subsance and they should be banned. That is a bit judgmental don't you think? A Dr., a psychiatrist is prescribing them to you and I'll be he know more medications, in general, than the sub Dr. And it does not sound like you're addicted to the xanax, if you stick to taking them as prescribed by your Dr. Only you know that. There are alot of addictive substances in the world; should everything be banned? Perhaps food should be banned.

    I don't now, I'm in an aftercare treatment program, taking suboxone, taking klonopin, talking openly about it amongst some very experienced Drs. counselors, psychiatrists, addictionologists, and noone sees any red flags here. They all see that I'm doing really well, and I feel really well, in general.

    Ok, so just because sub will be hard to get off, does that mean that there is no point to the suboxone. I don't think I have to go into a long thing about all the benefits of sub, where you are now, and where you were then. Pretend - pretend that in the future that getting off suboxone will be do-able and manageable.

    Your Dr. wants to put you in a detox center to detox from what - both? or just the xanax? I'm sorry, but to me it seems that this Dr. is creating more problems for you than you really need right now. No, treatment centers are not really bad at all. I would recommend being them depending upon what you are detoxing from - at least for a little while. But, my opinion is still, find another suboxone Dr. Give it a chance for a little while. Try to stop worrying about it for a little while. You've only been oon it a short while (like me). And don't worry about taking your xanax - as needed.

    Perhaps you're upset with your husband for letting this Dr. convince him that the best thing for you to do is what this Dr. says. No, I'm no Dr. but I think you could find a Dr. that will work with you - not against you.

    Now I'll read the rest of the thread. I apologize for talking so much but this Dr. irks me and he's upsetting Michelle instead of helping her.

    Regards,
    Murphy

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 09:24 AM   #20
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Michelle,

    Why are you weaning yourself off of the suboxone now. Are you trying to quit on your own and figure out the tapering on your own thinking that it will solve at least 1/2 of your problems?

    Please try and find a new sub Dr. Explain honestly what you have been going through.

    And don't worry about having to get off the xanax, period. In fact, don't worry about having to get off anything immediately. It is NOT a good time for you to cut down on anything IMO, the xanax or the suboxone.

    IMO, all you need is a Dr. who will allow you to take what your psychiatrist prescribes (have you Psych. write a note as to why it is importnat for you to continue to take low doses of xanax).

    I understand why you are feeling despair right now, I really do. If your Dr. was putting the pressure on me as he is on you, I'd be feeling the same exact way. Scared and despairing.

    Please try and find another sub Dr. Don't mention it to him so he won't just cut you off immediately. Look around. Do some interviews. Meanwhile, don't worry. Don't stop either medication

    ((((Michelle))))

    Murphy

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 09:39 AM   #21
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Hi
    Ok, just finished the thread, pretty heavy duty.
    I'm sorry, I disagree with you plan of action.
    gonna say what I see.
    You're going back and forth with what you're going to do.
    first it's a quick tapere with the suboxone you have left.
    Then it's you decided to detox with hydro.
    There's a right way and a wrong way to detox from substances.
    From i've heard, detoxing with hydro is not the right way.
    how many people here have told you that it screws with your head by going back and forth.
    Mostly I agree with bodymechanic-find a dr. that you CAN work with and do things properly and under medical supervision.
    You don't need to be hospitalized to detox off of sub.
    You need a good taper plan, that is very very slow, and so far I've never heard of anyone going into detox to detox off of suboxone.
    I don' believe they even have an in-patient protocol to detox off of suboxone.
    As for xanax, if you wan to get off that because it's made your life unmanageable, with or w/o the suboxone.
    Detox in a hospital for benzos for a week is sufficient. You won't feel great afterward for awhile, but for the acute detox, there's no way you need to say anywhere 3-4 months!

    Anyway, again, bodymechanics advice, find a Dr. you can work with. Philster and all of us want to help and support you but none of us are Drs. And in your case I think because you are dealing with 2 addictive substances - you need a Dr. preferably one that will let you take suboxone AND xanax and then if YOU want, you can get off of both of them (if that's what you choose) ONE at a time.

    Murphy

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 09:49 AM   #22
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Michelle
    I could have written that post about perfectionism! Oh - it hit right home to me. A perfectionist and a people pleaser - that was me to a t! And I still have to fight it and just accept that I am just like everyone else - just human and full of human frailities! All I can do is my best within limits.
    So - dont be too hard on yourself.
    I am not going to give you any advice about tapering and getting off opiates and benzos. That is for you to decide and you are getting plenty of advice here about all that.
    I just want to say that I agree totally with you about going into an institution. I was threatened with that too - but could not bear the thought of leaving my kids for so long. And - after all - what was to stop me leaving the institution after months and just using again? It comes from within yourself - you can do it at home - I dont think for one second that going into a detox/rehab centre will do anything except leave you poorer financially. You have to make the decision to do this for you. Going into a detox centre will not do this for you. Perhaps you could come to some agreement with your husband about the situation .................
    And again I would say to you that you cannot do this alone. I went to AA and got wonderful support and the tools to help be cope etc. You have to find something and people who suit you. An addiction group/AA/NA - whatever - but you need other people. And not on the net - it is not enough - you need full human contact. People will help you get thro those difficult days of withdrawal - just one day at a time.
    Michelle - never forget that you are not weak or bad - you are a wonderful human being - there is only one person in the world like you! You can take control of your life again and fulfill your role as mother/wife and whatever else in life you want to do. You are at perhaps the most important crossroad in your life. Look on it as a challenge. You can and will do it.
    So - Michelle - dont waste time anymore in thinking about it - just do it - you will never ever regret it!
    I am here if you ever want to talk.
    y

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 10:21 AM   #23
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    hi michelle-
    hope your day is better today. there are a couple in okla. my hubby was in one for 28 days when he was a teenager and a good friend of mine just got back after 90 days. the one my husband was at was extemely hard core but he said it worked as long as you wanted it.
    i hope you get your sub dr probs worked out and have a great new year. the only advise i can give you is don't get down on yourself. you are a good person. being the perfectionist wannabe myself, it has been hard for me to come to terms with accepting me for who i am. the only person who expects me to be perfect is me. i set unrealistic goals and expectations for myself and beat myself up when i can't get them. but, you know, life goes on. i can either wallow in the self pity and selfish feelings and get drunk, or i can accept things as they are handed to me for what they are and be content and happy. today, i choose the latter. also, remember, you can start your day over at any time.
    tons of hugs for today!!!!!
    laney

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 01:18 PM   #24
    John 808
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Hey ya'll,

    Murph, you were having yourself a time there with all that posting! I appreicate it more than you know, seriously! Thank you and to you again, Yinsky. You are right in that I have got to "ligthen up" on myself!

    Well, after reading all of your posts and talking with my father (I did end up talking with him and after receiving his full support and help) I decided to stick with the sub. I know it sounds like I am being wishy-washy, ya'll just bear with me as I have been severly confused and depressed. I only took 4 Norco's and have not taken anything else and will not take the sub until withdrawals set in. From then, I will begin to taper off the sub. I talked to another addictionalogist today and he said he would not continue my sub and encouraged me to enter a detox program. So, that just re-affirmed I am going to taper off. I am ready to be pill free....then, I will deal with my depression issues. I don't know if the Lexapro is helping (been on nine months) or it may once I am off of everything.

    So you guys, I have about 40 eight mg tablets left. I am sure for the next three or four days, I will have to take it every day because I took those 4 Norco's (by the way, THEY HAVE BEEN FLUSHED.) Atleast tapering with the sub, my liver will stay intact- hopefully. I am going to continue my Xanax for right now- there is NO issue with abuse with that. I take half of what my doctor prescribes me to. I do plan to taper off of that when the time is right.

    I think alot of my problems stem from depression- had it bad after my babies were born and before I ever started abusing. So, let me get off everything and get this depression in tow and maybe I can begin a happy, healthy life.

    I cannot tell you guys how determined I am to do this. I love my children more than life itself and (all of you may disagree) but they are reason enough alone to stop this vicious cylce.

    MARK MY WORDS, I WILL BEAT THIS! I WILL GO DOWN KICKING AND SCREAMING BEFORE I LET THIS HAPPEN TO ME AGAIN! Bear with me, and Spark, if your reading, how would you handle the sub taper. Any advice is much appreciated.

    Thanks to all of you for your concern. I am going to get my life back and with your help. God bless,
    Michelle

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 02:28 PM   #25
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Yeah!!! I'm so glad you flushed them! Remember, they are poison to you! That's the way I try and look at them. I'm so, so happy that you are so determined and have your mind made up. I wouldn't worry about Xanax... you're not addicted to them. I definitely need mine and I can relate with you about that! I have a feeling that 2004 is going to be a wonderful year for ALL of us here trying to beat this disease. You just made my day by saying all of the things you did and I'm SO happy you flushed them. That's some MAJOR will power. See, you said you didn't have any but look at you! :-) VERY proud. Have a wonderful evening and a happy new year!

    To everyone else - Sadsister, Murphy, Chef, and especially Spark (I know I'm forgetting everyone else) but be careful tonight and have a wonderful new year.

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 02:35 PM   #26
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Michelle, you give me so much motivation. I have major depression issues too--my whole life, but have also had crises that have set me back (suicide of my first husband) so I have alot I need to continually work on. That's what scares me the most is having to face those issues when I am off the pills, but I am on Prozac and hopefully that will help. I used to be on Wellbutrin too and that was great, but then I had a seizure. thank you for your openness--it helps me more than you know.

    Rosie

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 05:35 PM   #27
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Hi Michelle

    I guess i got carried away posting before. First i didn't read the thread so I just responded from the gut, then I did read the thread and had so much more to say. But just to let you know, I posted so much because I really CARE about you and what you are going through. If I had a medical degree, and would come over there and work with you to your advantage, not create more & more anxiety in you. Anyway, I do care, that's why i wrote so much.

    Also, Sadsister, Murphy, Chef, and Sparko my friend, you all take very good care and it's hellpful knowing I have a little family in cyberspace who I can share my feelings and feel open enough to share them with me. Let's all have a a very good year - with or without suboxone.

    Murphy

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 06:52 PM   #28
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Murphy, your posts really helped me today...I hope you didn't think I was being "ugly." Actually, I just got a little "tickled" that you kept posting- I know that you care and it means more than you know to me. Please, please let me know if I can ever help you in any way. Sounds like you are doing good and I am so proud for you. I hope 2004 brings you the very best!

    Banker, yep, down the potty they went- boy, what I could have bought with that $100- oh well. It may be a little harder in the long run being that the sub stays in your system longer- I have no idea what I am in store for with withdrawals, but I am not going to think about that right now. I just know in a couple of months I want to be off everything except my Xanax and Lexapro- we'll deal with that later. One step at a time! I hope you have a great and safe night and best wishes for 2004...you deserve nothing short of the very best!

    Rosietee, post me anytime you just want to talk. I know exactly how you feel. Me, too, with the depression. As a teenager, I was real insecure and basically was a big time "follower" (don't know why I didn't get hooked on drugs or alcohol back then- never really did them except dring occasionally) but I followed the crowd. That led to trying to be perfect as an adult maybe to cover up some of my insecurities- I don't know. I just know after I had my first child in 1998, depression kicked in bad and then I turned around and had another child in 1999 and mind you, they were both premature and very sick babies. I was a basket case. That's when my pain pill abuse began- after my son was born. It has been a ugly cycle since then. I had another child in 2000, so chalk another one up to bigger and badder depression. I never really gave my hormones a chance to settle down in all this, too. I feel for you and am terribly sorry you have had to deal with a suicide- I know that makes things ten times worse. I am here for you whenever you need me- it just helps to talk with someone that you know is dealing with the same thing you are. The anominity(sp?) is nice, because you can really spill your guts and not have to worry about anything- ya know? Just know I am here for you and I will probably be on here posting alot here in the next few weeks as I am about to begin this taper. My prayers are with you and hang in there. Take care,

    Michelle

    P.S. Spark, Ric, Lisa, Heather, Phil, Chef, Banker, Murph, Yinsky, all you guys- have a great New Year's Eve and may God bless your upcoming year with all that you deserve. I have a special place in my heart for each of you! (If I left out someone..I am sorry..trying to type with a one year old in my lap )

     
    Old 12-31-2003, 07:40 PM   #29
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    michelle, thanx for the prayers, just had to lol because I have a 1 year old in my lap too! happy new year-i'll post more tomorrow. Trying to decide when to tell husband.

    luv you guys,
    rose

     
    Old 01-01-2004, 05:25 AM   #30
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Hey Michelle---I haven't been on the "boards" in a couple of days and your post caught my eye. I seem to be ALOT like you, having the same issues with my weight (I only weight 110 too, but FREAK if i think my size one jeans aren't fitting right) those dam pills seemed to make me "Super-MOM" for my 14, 13, 12 and 2 year old. Well in reality, they made me a very, very depressed person. Look back about 2 months ago at some of my posts, full of hopelessness and dispair. You've GOT to get determined and stick with it. No matter what....i can so relate because my hubby was threatening detox and believe me I DO NOT WANT TO GO THERE AGAIN!!! I was treated in 1996 for alcohol and cocaine addiction and was only in until the physical symptoms were gone and then attended a very intense out-patient program for close to a year.
    I just knew that i had to do this on my own. You seem to be swayed on either staying on sub or tapering off of the vikes. I have never been on sub, so i have no idea what the w/d are like. What ever you decision, i will give you the support you need....i do not work so i am able to hop on and off the computer all thru-out the day. Just stay determined and i know you will accomplish this. We really sound so much alike that it is scary
    So as we start this new year, you have a goal....just take it one day, one minute at a time if you have to.
    I never even thought about sub, because i take zoloft and xanax at night to help me sleep. Once in a great while i will have to take the xanax during the day, because i get massive anxiety attacks. I don't care what people say about the xanax, i never abuse it and it really helps me when i get myself worked up. You are right just to worry about the pain meds now and everything else will just fall into place.
    So, Michelle, don't get so down on yourself, just make a good tapering plan and stick to it no matter what. I will be looking forward to hearing from you.
    You are stronger than you know...i will pray for you.
    Happy New Year....this is gonna be the year for you, Michelle.
    Love,
    LISA

     
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