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    Old 01-29-2004, 11:40 AM   #1
    Banker
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    To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    I was just wondering why people are so against Suboxone... Chef, you inparticular. Everytime someone new gets on it and seems to be doing great, you post them and say that they will have withdrawals and they should get off of it soon after they start. I know when I started it, I received wonderful support from people here but then you and some other people sort of rained on my parade. I don't understand why you think that people should get off of it so quickly if it helps them stay off of lortabs and other pills that they used to abuse? I know about the withdrawals and I know they will be bad but why can't I worry about that when the time comes? I think we should be happy for people when they take the plunge and get on Suboxone since it does help so many people from killing themselves with pills. What if Happy Father would have started it.... I wonder where he would be now. I doubt he would be worried about the wds when he gets off of it. Like myself, I'm just so thankful that I'm not killing myself with pills, why can't you be happy for the people that get on it? I know you realize that there are two types of addicts.... the first type is the one that can stop taking pills through NA/AA or another sort of program and the other type is one who cannot stop taking pills and ends up dead. Why can't there be a third type who manage the addiction with Suboxone and methadone? You are one of those people and I believe that you are happy so why can't you be happy for others? In addition, if you were on the Suboxone prior to your marriage ending and you losing everything you had, wouldn't you be happy that you found something like Suboxone? I just don't understand. It can be discouraging for people who start to take it and then you say... it's not a miracle drug... you will suffer eventually. I just don't understand. I hope you don't get too mad at me, It just concerns me. I think we should be supportive and happy for anyone that takes steps to not end up like Happy Father. Don't you?

     
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    Old 01-29-2004, 01:05 PM   #2
    chefob1
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    whats up with pick on chef day?...i wrote out this long speel and lost it cause i had to sign off, so ill write a short one...i never bashed suboxone other than if a individual asked about it,i told them my side of the story....go back and read their posts...if they ask im gonna tell them the truth...why should i sugar coat the facts about suboxone...bottom line...its a opiate and its swappin the hydros or whatever for it..hey,im on methadone,remember?i switched over from the bupenorphine because it only has so much pain mgmt. abilitiy...i was on bupenorphine for four years...strictly,maintance....if a poster asks questions about it, ive only told the truth...do you beleive its a miracle drug?how has suboxone cured you?didnt cure me....everyone ive met on this board usin it stated w/d's were bad...i didnt state it,they did....if you ask me , ill tell you they were bad too...if a poster asks me,ill tell them that too....im sorry that i show the other side of the coin...look,im on methadone for maintance and chronic pain and you take suboxone for maintance...im not against it...someone asks me if it is a miracle drug,i say no...its a substitute for sobriety...same as me on the meth...if it keeps them aqway from taking pills great....but they still have to deal with their addiction,dont they....i never told anybody that as soon as they get on it to get off it..thats stupid...why go from one addiction to another?...suboxone is a opiate just like any other opiate...if opiates your drug of choice,sure your going to like suboxone....sure its going to make you feel good...alot of these folks dont know that suboxone is a another opiate...and theve heard that there will be no w/d's when it comes time to get off it....i only speak the truth and know that i have a disease like other folks around here....and im dealing with my demons like everyone else....and if someone wants to know my opinion or my experience with the stuff,im not going to sugar coat reality....and as far as happy father goes,i remember him and i conversed about it in the past...id have to go back and read my posts but i dont think he didnt start taking suboxone cause of me and i dont care for the reference.....we are all addicts here looking for some form of recovery and i am not one to judge....but i will tell the truth,at least as i see it...its not meant to offend,but to edify....gain knowledge...whether good or bad...and it didnt save my marriage....i was on bupenorphine for three years into my marriage...and that is irrelevant to what the medication is,what it does, and how it works for others.....i never stated i was not happy for people to take suboxone or tried to discourage them from taking it...they asked a question and i informed them to the best of my knowledge....and if someone asks again,i will tell them how i feel,negative or not...there are two sides to all issues and i was answering one side...im not trying to tell anyone what to do...i inform them on what may happen cause i took the med also....alot longer than anyone on this board...but that doesnt make me an expert on it....it just means that i am an addict also trying to recover......chef

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 02:05 PM   #3
    LaynesADDICTI0N
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    "Zyprexa" was a miracle drug for me too back in 97 when it first came out, i was one of the first ones on it. Now 500 people are dead and 800 people are dying and im living in hell from it. I was also one of the first ones on suboxone and when people on this board were saying, what is this new drug suboxone? I was already on it! I got banned for making a hyperlink actually. I remeber buprenex also, and chef was one of the first ones to even try buprenorphine period. No one knocks the drug here, it's a brand new drug and you people are being STUDIED! In 5 years when you have complications, are you going to come back and apologize to chef for telling people about his bad experience with it? we're all here helping each other, if you feel a little edgy that's fine, but no one is trying to stunt your recovery.

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 03:04 PM   #4
    LiLa's Mom
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    All I can say is thank goodness that my daughter has found suboxone. I feel that it has saved my daughter's life. She is functioning and living a good life. She is able to work and go to school full time. When using, she couldn't do a damn thing and last relapse before she went on suboxone, I had a feeling that she wouldn't be living much longer. I don't think suboxone is a miracle, because if there were miracles, my daughter wouldn't have an addiction at all, and wouldn't have to use suboxone, which is an opiate. But since she has this addiction, and the only thing keeping her sober is suboxone, if she needs to stay on it for years or the rest of her life, so be it. She would love to remain sober without any pills, and maybe down the road, she will be weened off the suboxone and lead a life without pills of any kind. As far as withdrawals go on the suboxone, she will have to deal with those when, and if, she ever gets off. But why would she want to get off something that is working when everything else failed? I can't believe the different in her now, and that might be the miracle. She is happy and smiling, and I haven't seen that in years. And I don't care how old she is, she is will always be my baby.

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 03:31 PM   #5
    spark-o-cet
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    im like chef in that while it may have seemed like i downed suboxone all i was doin was tellin how it was while i was on the sub.im all for sub and i wish i had followed the program like i was supposed to but i didnt but i have finally been clean now goin on four weeks and i feel better and better each day.the cravins are killer but so far have been able to ignore them but it is hard.sub is good and i havent seen anyone here really puttin it down as long as i have been here.-spark

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 04:09 PM   #6
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    sparkster...once again,im proud of ya dude...now you are sayin its been 4 weeks...you chump...you broke any of my records and man o man...i am proud of you..its been four weeks and besides the cravins are ya doing alright...are ya hittin any a/a or n/a mtgs...you know, its good to try to surround yourself with anybody/somebody whos in recovery or is recovered and been sober for a long time.....this comin sunday at my a/a mtg. im going to ask this 58 year old guy to be my sponsor....he was a alcholic/addict so he can offer both sides of the spectrum and hes been sober since 85....i need someone older and lots of years experience to help me out....its a real brainwashin i need....about this topic...i think you know how i feel...shoot, ive done every drug except that kgb stuff and even shot drugs...im not against subox or people tryin to get help.... id recommend subox to the individuals i think it would help...i wouldnt recommend it to someone whos been on opiates for only six months though...common sense applications....someone who has tried recovery lotsa of times but always failed.....same with the methadone...shott, back in 1984 i got addicted to snortin heroin.....i was usin for about a year...instead of c/t i did the clinic methadone thing...after six months of that i asked for a ten day detox and was on 21 mg of meth...there were more drugs at the clinic,i used for the first time placacadyls,whatever, and a bunch of pharmos that i had never used before...i wanted out of that scene...after ten days of droppin 2mg a day i had severe w/d's...didnt sleep for 11 days strait before i got 2 hrs of sleep...swore id never use meth again...my doc told me thats the problem with methadone....nobody detoxs right off of it and then they bad mouth it...detox should be extremely slow,same as suboxone......i love to edify a chronic addict and inform them cause maybe they dont know what i do and they can pursue a different avenue...i wished i had talked to a addict who would help me like i have offered help to others....will finish this later...good job on your 4 weeks and keep it up and keep in touch....chef

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 04:40 PM   #7
    Twinlynn
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    Hmmm.....now I'm very confused. I know I can go to a medical/chemical website and check out just how Suboxone works in the brain, etc....but, first, I'd rather ask those of you who know. WHY would a doctor take you off an opiate, so that he could put you on another opiate?? Is it merely that the Suboxone opiate is less damaging than the hydro opiate?? What's the point? When I read posts like Bankers, I feel such relief that there is something that may help me after years of low-level--but steady--pill taking. Why would they make a drug, i.e. Suboxone, if all it does is make you FEEL like you're off opiates? When all that's happened is that you've just exchanged one for another?? I'd really like to understand this. Banker sounds as if she's at the point that I would like to be!! Surely, it must be better to be on Suboxone than Hydros??

    Thanks for any info any of you can offer. I may sign on-line again later just so I can go to bed with some "closure" on this issue! :-)

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 05:40 PM   #8
    Banker
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    You made your points well. I just know that my own experience was that I felt as hopeless as I possibly could. I felt that my life was over when I realized I absolutely could not get off of lortabs. I contemplated suicide knowing that I did not want to be a drugged up mother to my children and did not want them watching me slowly kill myself like I had to with my mother. I knew I could not stop taking the pills!!! I had no idea about Suboxone until I went to the doc and he told me about it. It was the only hope I had at that point. I have been on it for two months and it literally has saved my life. I don't think about pills at all anymore... ever! I'm taking between 10 and 12 mgs per day and I absolutely get no high from it at all, as you know. So why would you make that comment about it being an opiate and of course you feel good? I believe there are people that have tried it and it didn't work for them... they still wanted pills. Even though it's an opiate, it does not give you a high and you know this. I feel normal... I feel like I did prior to my addiction. I guess that's the biggest part of it, I can actually feel again. I also thought that most people knew it was an opiate so to me, it just sounded like you were saying they were trading one thing for another and to me, that is simply false. Taking 10 mgs of suboxone per day is NOTHING like taking 20 - 30 lortabs per day. You know this. I am no longer killing myself... Am I dependant upon it? Absolutely, but I'm getting it legally, I'm not spending thousands of dollars to get it, I'm not killing myself and my liver, I'm not ruining my relationships, I'm not losing my children over it, I'm not losing my job over it, I'm not dealing with drug dealers and risking getting arrested. There are so many other benefits I have found. So, you tell me, which alternative sounds better, Suboxone or continuing to relapse and taking hydros and percocets? It has been a wonder drug for me and I just wish that other people didn't have to suffer and actually die from abusing pills when suboxone can help them. That's all I'm saying... And if it was so bad, why did you stay on it for four years? I promise I'm not attacking you and I apologize if it sounds like I am, I just know how excited I was when I first got on it and how I felt normal again and I never, ever thought that I could feel normal again. And other people post either with that same excitement or the hope that Suboxone will work for them and it just seems like you try to discourage them. Again, I'm really sorry if I've overstepped my boundaries... I know it has saved my life and I wish it could save a few more, that's all I'm trying to communicate.

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 05:49 PM   #9
    John 808
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    Haven't posted much but had to chime in on this one...you are trading one opiate addiction for another, but with the sub, you are not abusing your liver and kidneys with the tylenol. You can delve further into the moral issues... that one is no longer lying to doctors to obtain scripts, lying to family members, putting themselves in an akward postition if they are odering from online OP's, etc.

    I was on the subutex for several weeks...I never seemed to be as satisfied as others because I craved all the time. Enough so, that I stopped the sub and went back to hydro's. Eventually, I went back to the sub and tapered off quickly as I researched more about it and my husband had a very long talk with my addictionalogist. I also contacted the FDA regarding the sub. All of this led to one conclusion...this is a new drug, we, who are on it now, are basically "lab rats" right now as clinical research is still being performed and evaluated and it was originally created to be used for lifetime maintenance (what the FDA told me). Withdrawals are inevitable when coming off the sub. My withdrawals were horrible- am still struggling every day!

    I am like Chef- not trying to discourage anyone...just giving my experience. If someone is happy with being on the sub and even feels they may need it for lifetime maintenance, then so be it. I just never intended to use it that way.

    It makes me a little nervous that there is still so much UNKNOWN about this drug...what is it going to do to my brain receptors in the long run?? Why can't anyone (doctors, FDA) really tell us anything concrete...even my doctor told my husband, "I'll be honest, it is new and not alot is known about it...it is kind-of trial and error." That unnerved me! Plus, my doctor had problems with other medications I was taking while on the sub and that bothered me as well.

    It is for some and it is not for some. One has to decide for themselves what is best for them!

    Good luck to everyone who is trying to make this decision,
    Michelle

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 06:07 PM   #10
    Banker
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    Michelle - I think you put that very well. Thank you for your input. How ARE you doing? How are you hanging in there? Please let me know... I worry about you.


    Spark - I'm VERY proud of you for making it this far. See... I knew you could do it. I told you before that you were bound and determined to get off of everything and you've done it. Let me ask you, how do you fight the cravings? Do you go to meetings or what? Let me know and keep it up! Remember, one day or one hour at a time, if necessary!!!!! Are you still with your girlfriend? I know she is SO happy for you!

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 06:15 PM   #11
    chefob1
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    this is only my opinion on the subject....why do they make this drug?...suboxone was made initially in europe...it was actually called buprenex,which by the way,is the drug i was on for 4 years...it is the parental drug of subutex/suboxone...so people would not have to inject it like i did...the drugs medical name is bupenorphine...it was used to initially treat pain but they found it works good to help addicts and depression...how does it help addicts?...it is a low abuse level opiate...same as a diahrea opiate called lomotil...when consumed it has a ceiling effect meaning after you take a certain quantity nothing happens to you medically..its effect only go so high...if i had pain and took an ampule of buprenex and then took another,i would be wasting the second one,the first wil only do so much for my pain...so it does good for a addict who tries to consume x amount....it controls the w/d symptoms and has some positve side effects for opiate abusers,ie..depression,anxiety,ect...the govt lobbed it in with the principal behind methadone...as a method of maintance until the individual can be stabilized on it and then be treated emotionally/physocologically to understand their addiction problem and deal with it....technically,i guess from what my doc says and he is a recovering addict,that addicts will take the med and then slowly detox from it and become sober,by using principals such as a/a or n/a...by stem the physco part of it by disassociating with addicts and work on a recovery program of some sorts...lets say they never made suboxone...would you be on methadone......or maybe you could take dilaudid and it would do the same thing....i was addicted to lortabs...50 a day,my tolerance level...i started the bupenorphine program...did not need to take the lortabs cause the bupe took away my w/d's....i still had to go get a script and go buy them.....i didnt have to go to the ghetto...whats better...goin to the ghetto or to the doc...naturally to the doc....withdrew myself from that enviroment to surround myself with recovering addicts and listen to the message of sobriety...now im supposed to learn from the message and work myself to free me from the maintance drug...im on methadone but i dont go to a clinic...im fortunate...my doc writes me the script...docs can write scripts for methadone...im on it for maintance but i also have a back pain issue...is it better to be on suboxone than hydros...i say yes..no acephetamin..liver problems...my doc says 1000mgs is harmful...however the suboxone is a opiate so it has the side effects...withdrawing from it brings the same consequences as withdrawing from hydros...diahrea,insommnia,restless leg syndrome,ect.....but it is a way to treat hard core opiate addiction...it helps the same as methadone...controlled addiction by our society...the govt has set guiedelines to follow...you dont have to go to a clinic though like many methadone clinics...it is A LONG ACTING OPIATEalso...some folks can take it every other day...methadone has to be taken every day....some folks will be on meth for the rest of their lives and some will now be on suboxone...they(medical society) doesnt want you to be on meds the rest of your life...it is supposed to be a short term thing till we see the negative side of opiate abuse and get sober.....now to be totally honest with you...after a long time/years of pill abuse why do you think this is going to help you?sure your not taking your hydros anymore,but you are taking opiates and if you were to stop you will feel the same anguish as if you stopped taking the hydros...im not a anti subox supporter..shoot,im on 60mg of methadone....but if i stop taking the meth tomorrow im gonna be sick...and if you stop the subox youll be sick...so what are we doing?prolonging the inevitable?why do we take opiates?i take them cause of pain first and then because im addicted to opiates..it is most likely at this stage of my life why i take methadone...so i wont withdraw and be sick for weeks...and deal with my paqin...if i had no pain why would i need the opiates?..cause id be sick for weeks from the w/d's and i dont want to deal with that now...hence im an addict...now if i cant control my addiction thats the first step to recovery...knowing it controls me....why do you take the suboxone?...to stave off w/d's?...euphoria?...subox is good cause as your usage goes you dont feel euphoria after awhile...you feel normal...but your not....your taking a chemical to feel normal....thats what addictions all about with opiates....so how do you deal with your addiction...if you want it to stop you go to a doc,he puts you on subox...you start to edify yourself about addiction...and your supposed to quit...an alcholic has to quit to be sober...there is no other drink he can switch too....if you want to be sober,you quit also...as addicts we find the easy way out..a new drug..ec t...but in the end if you think about it...methadone/suboxone are drugs...its a moral/ethical issue also...i dont claim to be right...im only a human with a disease also...but i feel like im in recovery..certainly not drug free but i will be...itll take a long time because of the drug im on now...its a great topic for conversation also......chef

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 06:32 PM   #12
    chefob1
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    banker forget my last post...im glad the subox has benefited you...it did also benefit me for those four years...we are all different yet the same in our disease..i only answered some folks who asked about the drug in the way i perceived their question about w/d's...im not trying to bust your bubble...id rather see you on it than going to the streets and destroying your family like i did mine...of course i support anything over the pill issue....i hope that folks read our topic and it helps them the way they see fit...if i came across as a basher,i apoligize.....chef

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 07:13 PM   #13
    LaynesADDICTI0N
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    i read things back and forth on these posts and "medically" they made these drugs for 2 reasons...

    1. Slow titration - I lot of people cant handle a rapid detox, It makes the w/d less painful with slow titration - People who CAN do a rapid detox but are on the outside. The first 28 days are VERY crucial and most relapse in a matter of days - People who can not afford or cant be away from home for 28 days in an inpatient recovery center.

    2. Maintenance - They link people who chronic relapse with dependency to these drugs. Prolonged use did damage to their brains and now they depend on this drug to live. So they stay on the program at very high doses for the rest of their life. Now their brain HAS the receptors that they needed to stimulated with opiates and they are binded. Now they dont steal, lie, and get arrested all the time, or if you never did any of that, you can now leave that dark cave you were in and go out and function.

    That was always methadone and how buprenorphine started out, Suboxone was just made to erradicate the clinic system. Suboxone has a "low" abuse potental so they can give it out in 30 day counts with a doctor visit. This wont happen..... it hasnt been very effective with morphine abusers and heroin cost less than candy. It has however been effective with some people with codeine addictions and people with very "mild" morphine addictions. If anyone didnt understand, that is why they are used.

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 07:58 PM   #14
    Banker
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    First of all - Chef, thank you for your post. I appreciate it and I do know that you say the things you say because there are wds associated with it and you truly are not clean if you are taking meth or sub and you want addicts to be completely clean. I understand that entirely and I admire that in you. I understand now and I am sorry If I offended you. It's just that I know in my own self that I could not have stayed clean without the Sub or methadone. And yes, I had called a methadone clinic the day before I went to this doctor and they told me I would have to wait 5 days so I was going to try and get the meth prescribed for me by this doctor by saying I was in pain and was an addict. Well, he didn't buy it and he gave me Suboxone instead. Anyway, I just hope that if people are out there and they are trying to stop abusing meds and cannot overcome it no matter what they do, then they should give Suboxone a try. That's all I was saying and I understand what you are saying too.
    Layne - I'm not exactly sure what you are saying... I've read on a heroine addiction board TONS of people that use Suboxone and are very satisfied with it so I'm not sure why you would say heroine addicts can't take it?? Also, if someone is an addict.... isn't that why they are an addict because they have screwed up their receptors? Is there anyone that abuses lortab, for example and takes 20 a day that hasn't messed up their receptors? I thought that is why they call it a 'disease' because the receptors are screwed up now? Am I wrong about that?

     
    Old 01-29-2004, 08:06 PM   #15
    Banker
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    Re: To Anti-Suboxone Posters

    Chef - one more thing... You asked why I take Suboxone? I take it because I don't want to take 20 lortabs. In AA/NA the theme is one day at a time. The suboxone is my one day at a time... for now. Also, I never have felt a euphoric effect from Suboxone, never. I took methadone off an on for a while (got them from someone who was prescribed for pain) and those honestly gave me more of a high than lortab but not Suboxone. It has just made me feel normal.

     
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