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    Old 03-07-2004, 05:29 AM   #31
    John 808
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    Yinksy,

    Do mind sharing your opinin on sub? Do you think those of us who take the sub are "not getting on with it" or "just biting the bullet and doing it?"

    I have tried with a couple of posts here and there to also "shake hands" with you and have made no luck- I know that we disagree on certain issues but is there a problem with me that you can't post to me?

    And again, I would love your opinion about people taking the sub.

    Michelle

    Last edited by John 808; 03-07-2004 at 05:29 AM.

     
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    Old 03-07-2004, 05:50 AM   #32
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    Hello Michelle

    Sorry - hadn't realised you had addressed anything directly to me - I must have missed - I don't always have time to read many threads on the board - just the ones that I tend to visit and revisit.
    No - I have absolutely no experience or knowledge of sub at all - I thought I had made my position clear about that in the above posting to Banker.
    If you need advice about sub - then I think you should ask Banker - she is very knowledgable and helpful on the topic and I am sure she would offer very good advice.
    Good luck
    Y

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 05:58 AM   #33
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    Yinsky - I agree entirely. That's exactly what I got out of your original message. That's exactly why I wrote the response that I did which was that my understanding of your post was 'Just do it' and 'quit talking around the subject'. I knew exactly what you were doing (after your first post of explaining it to me) and I told you I completely agreed. However, you seemed to be wanting to argue with people the way you continued to say 'o.k. fire back at me' several times. That's why I thought it odd that you were trying to somewhat 'start something' and I was simply stating that I wasn't going to engage. I think the facts you were stating about individuals was right on (including myself and my need to get off meds), however, I also thought those 'fire back' comments were a little over the top. That's all - I took no offense to it at all. Now, the American Idol comment - I thought you were being serious and truly insulting me and refering to me as 'simple'. Now I understand that you were kidding and I apologize for thinking otherwise. Yinsky - you know that I have always liked you and your style with people. Like I stated multiple times in my other posts on this thread, you have always been a huge help to me and tons of other people. I've LOVED the help and relationship that you and Kinda have. You've been great and you also call a spade a spade. However, I do think I do that when called for yet still try to ensure that the person I'm writing to, knows I'm on their side. Sometimes if you are too harsh, then people will just immediately take offense and shut you out and think that YOU are the problem, not them or their drug problem. I'm shaking your hand and thanking you for the assistance you have so graciously given myself and others on this board. Again, the ONLY issue I had was that I didn't realize you were joking about the American Idol comment. It's VERY difficult to interpret someone's tone when writing so I took it the wrong way and again, I apologize for that. So, sounds like we are A - OK and we can get on with things. I also agree with you that other issues are discussed on the board that are not related to addiction, but at the same time, I think that's o.k. What about you and Kinda? You guys posted about everything under the sun at times while discussing addiction as well and nobody had a problem with it. Anyway, again, I apologize for taking offense to your (now that I think about it) funny comment about American Idol. Again, I did not take offense to your original email. Take care and I hope you have a great day today!!

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 06:00 AM   #34
    John 808
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    I am on the sub- I was just wondering if you looked at that as "sidestepping" your addiction rather than facing it "head on." I read your post above about three times and could not tell if you were referring to taking the sub as part of the problem of "not biting the bullet and getting on with it." I felt as if you thought one should not take anything in order to overcome their addiction (like Lisa and Kinda did). I was just curious how you felt about that- not trying to gather information on the sub. I was on the sub before Banker, so I am well informed about it again, just seeking your opinion.

    You may be just referring to benzo's, sleep aids, etc. That is what I was unclear on.

    Anyway, thanks for your opinion,
    Michelle

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 06:08 AM   #35
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    No no Michelle
    I really dont know anything about sub...................
    Y

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 06:11 AM   #36
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    Banker - no - it really was not fighting talk! Certainly wasnt trying to cause any "angst"! Just the way I speak. So - we have just have problems with language! C'est la vie!
    And you know fine you are one sad lady for watching American Idol! LOL
    Speak l8r
    Y

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 07:35 AM   #37
    Twinlynn
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    Exclamation Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! What's going on HERE?!?!?! Last time I looked at this thread was yesterday morning....Yinksy had a long post, which I just skimmed because I had to get out...but intended to read more carefully and answer this morning. Now...I come back--the thread is gone--and people are slinging arrows back and forth. What happened???

    I'm trying to remember the post more clearly...I don't remember anything offensive in it. (It did address Alice and I...but don't know who else.) Just from having a quick read, I could see that it was Yinksy, doing what she does best--the one thing that none of the rest of us seems able to do (except Chef)--and that is playing "devil's advocate"--making us do the old "searching of souls"!!! She's trying to cull down all the words we say....so that we "cut to the quick"--and admit to where we REALLY are in our drug-reduction plans. Heaven knows, I'm certainly right up there if Yinksky is "naming names"!!! My plan is slovenly, despite with my taper. I know that when my cousin is taken off the painkillers very soon--that's it for me. I have no other source. I think I win hands down for the worst, the weakest and the most dismal, reduction plan!!! Though I have tapered down a lot, I seem to lack the backbone to just stop--and this is purely because I know I will be forced to very shortly. Sort of like that old saying... "the condemned man ate a hearty meal!!!" It's a real weakness. And, as devil's advocate, Yinksy challenges this way of thinking.

    Is that what this thread is all about?? For the life of me, I did not read anything into it--even from just a quick skim. I did not see anthing that was trying to be "mean." I hesitate to ask Yinksy to put it up again, if it's caused such a raucus. But, from my first read, it sounded as if she was just telling us what we already worry about in ourselves..but don't always come to grips with.

    I'm really confused about the reactions. Like Michelle, I tend to be a "people pleaser", too--and while I love a good political or cultural debate--I just cringe at personal anger. Or....what the British so fittingly describe as "fisticuffs" (fights) amongst friends. I think we need to have both types of posts here--those supporting and giving us credit for what we've accomplished--and those making us think about what we haven't! It's so easy to misinterpret what is said in print--and that's what is so bad about the Internet---we don't see any of the talker's facial expressions--the smiles, the funny raised eyebrows--all the gestures which show us that the advice is given caringly...affectionately....with real thought. Because all the visual cues are missing, it is too easy to completely miss the support--and the concern--that is behind the words. Luckily, as we get to know one another, we start getting a mental picture of the speaker...so we learn to understand what they are really saying and how it is meant.

    When I was younger, I was so vulnerable to getting hurt easily...as if I had no defenses or sense of self. But those ten years I lived in London (1972-1982) were the perfect cure. The British possess something that we, as Americans, tend not to. They have this marvelous, hilarious, sarcastic and "truthful" wit. They can always laugh at themselves. And, if YOU can't laugh at yourself...they will happily do it for you!! It makes people like myself realize just how "thin-skinned" I was! In their humorous--sometime outrageously--funny ways, the British teach you not to take yourselves so seriously...to "get out there" and join the fun of, say, debating opposite ends of the pole. (And...you'd better have the facts to back it up!)

    More importantly, re. the British--when you take the time to share a friendship--it comes with a lifetime guarentee!! Chances are good that a British friend will be your friend for life. After being back in New York for over 20 years, the friends I met in London, who seemed at first sight casual and light-hearted, showed me that there is one thing they take VERY seriously--close friendships. My two dearest friends over there remain my dearest friends--they've never let the "pond" come between us. Through all their joking and their "plain-talk"--they've put up with me thru every crazy stage of life! They taught me to go beyond the surface-talk--and take the time to understand the words that lie beneath the humor and, the sometimes, very honest "straight-talk."

    Anyway, I truly believe that none of us on this Board means to be anything worse than, maybe, blunt! I find that I benefit from both support--and from reality-checks. And I do hope that whatever was--or wasn't--said...and however it was construed--or misconstrued--I hope it is finished. I live by that old adage "We shall just have to agree...to disagree!" (As for joint discusssion of religion and politics--you might as well invite Hannibal Lechter to dine with Jack the Ripper!!!)

    luv, Lynn (your PEACE person)

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 08:10 AM   #38
    John 808
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    Hey Lynn,

    I agree that Yinksy was probably just telling it like it is even though I didn't read the post. But what bothers me is she is adament against take any type of psych drugs (and correct me if I am wrong here, Yinksy) and without my anti-depressant, I don't think I would be doing as well as I am today. I think most of the women on this board are on an anti-depressant and she can come across as if we are doomed for taking these. It seem a little unfair being that she doesn't walk in our shoes.

    I realize, too, that I am very sensitive and get my feelings hurt easily and am trying very hard to "overlook" certain statements and opinions.

    Yinksy also said it was as if we were talking like we were in a dormitory, not an addiction board. She is right in that there are times when we really need to dig deep and try to find the root of our problems, but the small talk of support and encouragement uplifts me so very much- I think it is okay to have that every now and then.

    I also realize there are so many different personalities here, different upbringings, different religions, etc. and you have to be respectful of each person's way of life. And like Banker said, when you do talk to someone "stern" be sure to convey to them that you are on their side and just want what's best for them, because people's feelings can get hurt. I would hate to see someone leave the board because of that.

    You are right, too, in that sometimes we just have to agree to disagree and leave it alone.

    Good post,
    Michelle

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 09:34 AM   #39
    Twinlynn
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    Hi, Michelle, Read your message just before I was about to click off my computer to get this day started!! :-)

    This is what I try to do with the advice I read: I try to "get the best" from each message. We are all just too different to agree with everything from every message. But I read through the message (usually twice), I think about it...and then take the "best" from it. I learn from everything that is said--but I take only what I think I am capable of or what is best for me at this particular time. The rest of the information I absorb and save in my head as something that maybe I will be able to follow, in time. I try to decide what I am capable of following--and what--and why--I am not!!

    Re. with them! I have TRIED going off them...with disastrous results. Depression is an inherited disease in my family. I gain nothing from torturing myself to be "clean." These are not feel-good drugs...they are "feel-normal!!!" They provide my brain with what it should have had genetically. I almost never debate the issue of antidepressants, unless I read of someone feeling as if they were using them as a crutch--and they are thinking they have to stop them because of this. I try to explain that these are not "uppers"--that they are like a baseline support system for people like myself. We don't take extra pills for more of an effect. It just doesn't work like that. I would take insulin if I had diabetes...to provide my body with something it needs and does not get. And that's exactly what my antidepressant does--provides my brain chemistry with what it needs and does not get. (ie, seretonin.)

    As for sharing our views and parts of our lives with one another... I think we need that in order to relate to one another beyond the specific problems that brings us to the Board. Otherwise, we would answer people only once--to give our advice--and that would be it. No strings...no connections. There would be no reason to do more than what was absolutely necessary, if we did not have at least SOME sort of feeling for the person we write to. That's why they say "a problem shared is a problem halved!" Personally, I love reading everyone's thoughts, their philosophies, etc.--even if that is not part of the board's purpose. And I'm sure that Yinksy enjoys that, too. Her great friendship with Kinda proves that! :-) But she is also the "Mother" figure, who prods us to keep on track as WELL as chat!!! It is very true that words can sound so much "sterner" when we are not around to say them! (I've certainly had e-mails from friends whose intents were undecipherable, they sounded so cryptic!!!)

    Like you, I am pretty needy, even though my humor can be thoroughly sarcastic...and I've had a friend or two say to me "You ARE kidding...right!?!?!" But this veneer is often pretty "crackable"! :-) And, although I have strong viewpoints, etc...I am so aware of how harsh they might sound if another person does not agree. And, unless I'm invited to debate them...I don't walk around screaming them out to the heavens! (I got that all out of my system during my '70's hippy days!! LOLOL!)

    Do you know, I had never met anyone from Mississippi or Alabama before? I always imagined those from the south instinctvely disliking New York and New Yorkers because of the terrible press we used to get! (And--honestly--we are so much more "domesticated" than the press would have you believe! LOL! :-) I'd never met a Southern Baptist either! Or, other than my Virgina friend Wendy, anyone who incorporated their faith into their everyday world as you do. Just think--if there was no "small-talk"--I wouldn't have learned any of this!! In my hometown, NYC, my views my beliefs and who I am, are shared by so many of those around me. So...I never have cause to define myself....I just assume that everyone knows "my type." So...this opportunity we have to learn of other lives on a day-to-day basis is irresistible. (Do you think the fellows here on this Board are basically better at holding their "cards closer to their chest" than we girls!?!?) I'm just too curious about everybody--how we live, etc--to stick to topic! And I'm sure Yinksy is, too! (Now...because she is from Scotland, I got out my old Ordnance Survey maps and retraced the routes of my four or 5 way-in-the-past visits--to the area in Scotland which she lives. It was so nostalgic!!!)

    Anyway, here I was..on my way out...and it's now past noon!! (By the way...I do NOT have much of a temper...which is probably why I tend to see the humorous side of everything! My philosophy is that wether we spend time fell-walking in Scotland--or attending church events in Mississippi, we are all just people, wending our way through life--struggling with its temptations...and its pain pills!!! Lol! :-) Lynn

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 09:35 AM   #40
    Twinlynn
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    Michele - Re. missing words in third para. I was saying that if I had to "trade in" my antidepressants, I might as well trade myself in WITH them!!" :-)

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 10:23 AM   #41
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    Oh Lynn

    You are too eloquent by far! Yep - you are so right. Its about the difference in humour and language? My first views on American humour was that it just didnt exist. Americans were such dull, humourless, serious souls! Boy - was I badly mistaken!!!! Just so different.

    We do tend to go in for quite vicious satire I think - we all do here in UK. Very rapid short pointed exchanges. The faster and more barbed - the better! Its not personal and so - no-one is ever offended. And as you so astutely point out - we are expected to be able to argue either side of a debate with equal force and ability!!! And for sure - we are brought up to laugh at ourselves......... and if we do not - others will do that laughing for us! (at us!) And no-where is this more true than in Scotland and Ireland. Of course, humour derives so much from circumstances........... provides us with a safety valve?

    You could write a definitive work on the British psyche!!(and the American psyche too) You are a real master of observation!

    We have just so much to learn from one another? Yes - I too love to hear about other cultures! New York sounds so distant and romantic to me.............. if I have been chatting in here b4 I go to bed of an evening....... I am right there in a "brownstone", in Manhatten, in a big bed with the windows open and the roar of traffic, yellow cabs below me............ ha ha ha Isn't it just wonderful to be able to talk like this across the world? And - irrespective of culture - like minds find like minds? I have loved chatting to you all - and so enjoyed my exchanges with Kinda.......... he was on to me straight away! There are no forbidden topics. For sure - when minds really meet - then there are no barriers. I know you understand this - you are that sort of open minded person who will always enjoy every experience that comes her way in life. Always looking on the positive. Take on board anything from a situation that you can and turn it to your advantage!
    Well - you will be the natural mediator in here for international disputes! LOL LOL LOL
    Its just a matter of Live and Let Live? As you say - we are all just souls struggling thro life as best we can? Each to his own.

    Talking of culture and humour....... a limerick:

    There was a young lady called Lynn
    Who thought all lovemaking a sin
    But when she got tight
    It seemed quite alright
    So everyone plied her with gin


    Pass the tonic, m' dear!
    Y

    Last edited by yinksy; 03-07-2004 at 01:19 PM.

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 01:27 PM   #42
    John 808
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    As always, you put things so well.

    You are saying the same thing I am saying though- it is fun to share with each other outside our addictions. It helps me atleast to better understand and help the person that I am communicating with! Maybe that is a "girl thing" because you don't see many of the guys "opening up" the way we do- I guess the cliche "Women are from Venus and Men from Mars" stands true! (Or however that little saying goes...)

    Sometimes I get so passionate about issues, it is a little hard for me to overlook certain things, but you have a good outlook to take what is best said for you. I am learning to bite my tongue a little more and realize that not everyone is just like me! (And I am sure the rest of the board breathes a heavy sigh of relief...LOL!)

    Anyway, I am going to enjoy my birthday as it only rolls around once a year! Have a great Sunday,
    Michelle

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 05:11 PM   #43
    Twinlynn
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    Yinksy and MIchelle -

    Your great and observant posts warrant a far more thoughtful response than my closing eyes and half-functioning brain can offer at this impossibly "late" hour of 8:05 pm!! LOLOL!! So, at the risk of a nosy office colleague stopping by my desk tomorrow...checking out my screen...and offering her own drug reduction plan (!!!)...I will save my thoughts about your posts until Monday moring!! :-)

    til then....night, night....sleep well.

     
    Old 03-08-2004, 08:54 AM   #44
    Twinlynn
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    Talking Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    Yinksy - That little limerick you sent me deserves a good limerick back with YOUR name in the subject line! I shall have to give this a think--and try to come up with something worthy of yours!! (Did you ever see the two limericks I sent just before you went on "vacation"??)

    What amazed me when I lived in London was just how many "types" of British there were. I'm not one to label people into classified groups--but, over time, I couldn't help observing that certain types were instantly recognizable. (Just like they are here in America.) And I did get a sense that in England, people were still categorized into "classes". We have our own sort of obnoxious (!) class system here--but your system stood out because it was new to me. i.e.; all those Irish jokes, Scots jokes, etc. And the vast chasm between the "Sloane Rangers" and the Brick Lane "mates". Sort of "Anthea vs. Sharon." Or "Cyril vs. Bob." Am I making any sense? It's been twenty years since I lived there...so I don't know if it still holds true...or if there is less of a separation. The Working Class seemed very proud of their heritage....and would often make fun of the "lah-di-dah" Blue Bloods! And vice versa. My ex, Brian (who is English), was very bothered by this and would often discuss it with me, pointing out that each person in Britain was "born into" their class...and that class would define them throughout their entire lives. (He, himself, was, I guess, what you'd call "Upper Middle Class"--and he HATED the stereotypical image that went along with him as a member of this Group.) To counteract it, he made a conscientious effort to live more diversely. But his Mum was part and parcel of the whole class thing....coming up with such sterotypical reasoning, saying things like "Well! That's the way they (working class) WOULD react, isn't it?!?!" This was a most intelligent, creative, well-read, travelled woman--who could not knock the class system from her mind. But she managed to raise a son who was the total opposite of her!! (I turned out to be the first Jewish person his parents had ever met and actually spent time with!!!) And his mother was from London and his father from a large town up North--so I could only conclude that they socialized only within their own "class.". Anyway...now--twenty years later--I guess this class thing might be fading. We are all so much more global than before.

    As for your wonderful sense of humor over there...I always thought that the following conversation I'd had at my London job was as a perfect definition of deliciously black humor. I was up in the company dining room having lunch with Elaine, this riotously funny woman, who had this very imposing sort of voice--and a very sharp mind. We were talking with another workmate, Nigel...who was a total "prig." Spoke with marbles in his mouth and was so smug in his pretensions that he just begged to be put in his place! He and his wife had just had their first baby--and Nigel could not stop crowing about how unusually smart his new son was. (Waaaay above and beyond other babies.) He went on and on and on--monopolizing the entire conversation for at least a quarter of an hour. What made it so intolerable, was that he had absolutely no interest in what we had to say...and NO sense of humor. It was like listening to someone build a case for his kid's admission to MENSA!! LOL! Just about when Elaine and I had reached at the end of our tether, another fellow worker joined us...and began to tell us about what he described as "this shocking incident" headlined in his morning newspaper. In a horrible freak accident, a newborn, left outside in his carriage (pram) for a minute, was suffocated when a huge cat jumped up, and, unseen by anybody, curled up on the baby's face. Now, of course, this WAS a horrific tragedy..and ordinarily it would have been discussed as such--but Nigel, who then launched into this lengthy tirade about the "disgrace" of cats running about (he didn't like animals), managed to just tweak Elaine's sore point. She LOVED cats..and had about three at home. So...when Nigel rampaged on and on--for the umpteenth time--how an animal could be allowed to wander free and commit such a crime--Elaine gave him this withering glance and said to him, in this haughty, thoroughly disgusted (and upper-class..!) manner. "Wellllll, Nigel........a cat's got to sit SOMEWHERE!!!" And...as awful as this tragedy was....I just started laughing uncontrollably....then Elaine started laughing...and then Nigel started yelling at us "You know, this is not at ALL funny...not funny at ALL!!!!" And then, everyone in the company dining room insisted on hearing the story--and because Nigel was well-known for acting like a upper class ****--they all began to laugh at Elaine's comment as well!!!" So....now...whenever I think about the British sense of humor--I always remember Elaine's quick and "dark" comeback!!!

    There was really no such thing as "insulting" someone in Britain--absolutely EVERYONE was insulted--and the fun was in "giving as good as you got"--answering back in as clever a way as your sparring partner!!

    By the way, my Scottish friends are "Elspeth and Terry Nunn." He's an anaesthesologist. Haven't been in contact with them for some years now (Elspeth was my sister's pen-friend--they were paired by a computer at the 1964 World's Fair penpal center!!!) I think they live near Glascow, though they were in a large house called "The Mill" in Lanarcshire when they were raising their 3 grown kids. Terry may be affiliated with one of the larger hospitals in Glascow. Elspeth (m***** name: Grant) grew up on "Riccarton Street"--not sure of the spelling.)

    By the way...New York can be a very romantic city. Do you remember the scene in "Annie Hall" when Woody Allen and Diane Keaton are standing by the riverside looking over the NY skyline? And, one more thing....there are brownstones all over my neighborhood--including one right next to us.) They are beautiful. (My own building is 17 stories high and was built in the1920's, so it has gorgeous marble, decorative moldings, carvings, paintings, etc in the lobby.) Even the elevator doors are handpainted with an almost tapestry-like design.

    I was going to answer Michelle's post next--but I rambled on for too long writing your's...and now I need to track down and get some research info. about a new Social Security report for a column my boss is working on. So....I shall have to come back later. Have a good time with your arithmetic today!! Ugh. My Dad was a CPA (Chartered Accountant)--but managed to raise three daughters who are total mathematical duds!!!!

    The Board looks busy today...wish I had more time to check it out.

     
    Old 03-08-2004, 08:56 AM   #45
    Twinlynn
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    Re: Ladies & Kinda!

    spelled "Glasgow" wrong. :-(

     
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