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    Old 05-07-2004, 04:10 AM   #136
    no patience
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    Re: when does it end

    me again howard what thread did you want me to read not sure there are so manyof me whininglol kelleigh

    Last edited by no patience; 05-07-2004 at 04:12 AM.

     
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    Old 05-07-2004, 10:45 AM   #137
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    It makes sense that most people that are prescribed SSRIs do not need them. The vitamins, amino acid therapies fall under alternative medicine which seems to be just getting off the ground. Doctors are probably reluctant to delve in this arena for fear of lawsuits. We are a lawsuit happy nation, millionaires made over night over trivial matters. Prescribing F.D.A. approved medicines is a much safer bet for them. They have invested huge sums and effort in getting their licenses and do not want to lose them.

    I am aware of no solid clinical evidence that SSRIs or benzos cause "mental illness" or any permanent damage. In the case of the latter Ashton says the contrary. If one is to make such affirmations of fact please come with some solid broad based evidence. Something more than Breggin, one psychiatrist on the net that is selling books and taking patients. That is unless we are to call a withdrawal syndrome or anti-social behavior while on the drug "mental illness." But in that case there is hardly any mind altering, inhibition lowering drug that could be left out, including alcohol. Then we would have lawsuits against Budweiser. And the whole "the drug made me do it theme" is questionable in itself, "the twinkie defense."

    My contention all along has been that conclusions drawn from small samplings of internet personal testimonies or minimal and/or questionable internet sources, faulty analysis, and sometimes out and out fanaticism are hurting a lot of people, especially when such contentions are stated so a matter of factly. The truth is, according to Ashton, is that many come off of these drugs with no problems and the rest typically are fine within 3 months. With just with my own minimal time I have found at least a dozen people that came off benzos, some fast, some slow, some C/T, all fine within two months. This is the norm, what to be expected, but if someone is led to expect something different they are liable to get it. You see now why I am not welcome in your standard benzo support forums. Even though I always walked on eggshells and was far less candid than at present here. But actually I came here mainly to offer some support, not to re-visit the same old stuff I wisely removed myself from.
    Whoo there howard,

    Yep, I suppose I didn't make myself clear on the "causing" mental illness but you did hit it on the head in trying to decipher what I meant....yes, it's the withdrawal syndrome and antisocial behavior you mentioned! Those things are exactly what is interpreted by the psychiatric community as mental illness! In fact, my difficulties in withdrawal was interpreted by a psych (what a mistake going to one of those for benzo) as "OCD"....apparentely, if one is desperately ill as I was decides to try and find out why (aka research), then they must have OCD. Before he found out I started researching my symptoms/problems with the benzo, he never mentioned I might have OCD. I didn't really have any of the symptoms anyway. But oh, yeah, he thought I should get on Luvox right away, despite the fact insomnia was a major side effect of that med in particular. What the.. ****?....that was my major withdrawal symptom and he was going to give me that ****?

    So misenterpreting benzo and SSRi's reactions/side effects/withdrawals is exactly what gets people in the mental illness trap. I am also glad you mentioned alcohol too, because it can cause all sorts of anti-social behaviors, depression, and this can also be classed mental disease...after all, they do say alcholism is a "disease".....another mental one at that.

    Sue Budweiser? C'mon howard, that's like suing McDonalds for being fat....anyone forcing you to eat the cheeseburger, or claiming it's a health food? The liquior industry makes no claims that alcohol is safe or cures any disease....unlike the drug companies. Alcohol is not recommended or imposed as medicine. There is no misleading or false claims of safety there.....

    You forget, I'm an Ashton fan too. She also speaks of Protracted Benzo Withdrawal Syndrome. She doesn't guarentee you won't get it, only that most do not. But she states it does exist and is very real. Let's not assume, like the psychiatric community would, that anyone past two months withdrawal has to be nuts if they have symptoms still....that's just not true. That's the very thinking that causes normal, withdrawing/recovering people to be slapped back on meds they don't need.....

    Last edited by Jennita; 05-07-2004 at 10:47 AM.

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 01:48 PM   #138
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    Jennita,

    Sorry I missed the Stevie Knicks question. The number is 72 but forgot the potency. swear I cannot remember where I read it. Try Stevie Knicks, Klonopin. Will look more later, just got a bunch to do put on my plate...

    Windysan,

    She cannot be a pure Nimmo-ite as she is for some natural remedies, which are called "quack remedies" on Ray`s site and discussion of them is not allowed.
    Hey, I am very appreciative of Ray's site as it gives so much information including Ashton's Manual and many other professionals' articles. I think his heart is in the right place.....HOWEVER.....that really doesn't mean I think any one person's opinion of anything is gospel. Nobody has all the answers.

    I actually haven't read the quack-remedies section on his site (I'll get to it). I am not for natural "remedies" per se; I believe when you put nutritious, beneficial things in your body, it will be able to do it's job, whether it be recovering from drugs or fighting infections, etc. But some claims of this or that herb/supplement can be inflated. I think it's not one or two things that a "cure" make....it's a combination of things that simply help your body do what it's designed to do.

    Treat your body right and it will treat you right is sort of what I'm saying....filling it with unnessary or toxic substances or neglecting intake of what it needs will surely bring on trouble. Of course, we know even the healthiest lifestyles will not guarentee you won't get disease...such is life....but statistics prove that people who don't drink, don't take alot of pharmaceuticals, don't endulge in illegal drugs, eat healthy, exercise, etc. are more likely to avoid severe health problems.

    Anyway, I can forgive any assumptions you or the other poster may have about me since it's just that....assumption. For example, in the past, other posters have assumed I'm all about herbs, although the only herb I had ever mentioned (as only helpful at best) is chammomile tea. For some reason, if you are anti-drug, you must surely be pro-herb?

    Also, it was assumed I was anti-medical establishment, some silly poster once told me they hoped my kids didn't get diabetes! As if that happened, I wouldn't seek treatment? My god, I'd be at the doctor's office so fast it would make your head spin!

    I took my kids to the doctor for everything; my daughter ended up having eye-muscle surgery for amblyopia and strambismus when she was a toddler...not once did I doubt her doctor and I knew she would be blind in one eye if I didn't. I actually am indebted to the medical community because my daughter has her full sight........

    So, I am used to assumptions about me. I guess there might be some anti-drug people who shun all medical treatments so I can see where there would be some assuming being done.

    I just think prevention is best, and also that some of the new alternative treatments for disease do show alot of promise since sometimes drugs do fail or maybe cause complications that further the bad health of some people. A good example, because of my uncles' lung problems from smoking, he was put on predinsone, which causes known side effects as diabetes and lack of healing/ability to fight infection. He got both. THe irony here is, he didn't die from emphysema, lung cancer or even the diabetes caused by the predinsone. He died from an infection; his body couldn't fight it even with the antibiotics. So, indirectly, predinsone killed him. It's not predinsone's fault he smoked. But, it is all very ironic.

    Developing alternatives to strong medications may someday prevent this sort of thing we hope.

    I am anti-drugs for the mood/mind, and mainly peeved about all the massive prescribing to what I'd say are, though troubled, normal, not mentally ill people. But I'm not anti-medical establishment nor a tree-hugging, herbal- loving hippy.

    My apologies to the tree-hugging herbal-loving hippie since everyone is entitled to love any living thing they want.

    Last edited by Jennita; 05-07-2004 at 01:52 PM.

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 03:33 PM   #139
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    Re: when does it end

    You've got it by the tail now. From here on it is a choice.

    Last edited by windysan; 06-02-2004 at 10:27 AM.

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 04:10 PM   #140
    mise ata ann
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    Re: when does it end

    Jumping in here.................
    I agree with you Windy..............to expect tapering for addicts is very hard - but has to be done for benzos because of the nature of its action on the brain. But I loathed the anti medic attitudes! Appalling. Counter productive. Hence the cult like status.
    BUT - I think Ashton is very credible and her research is authentic. She is one tough lady and continues to do battle with our Health Minister in the UK for the treatment of benzo addicts wanting to come off. Personally I think her Manual is an absol must for someone trying to get off benzos.
    But the rest.............. the mods......................... whew! But the man himself I have time for - unfortunately I think he may be ill now. Too too much ...........nothing else in his life but his forum?
    What do you think?

    Who the hell said Dubya? Isnt he the guy who is trying to stop Michael Moore pull the plug on the Bush/bin Laden family joint business industries - joint owners of an armaments factory in US. binLadens sold their stock on 9/12! ho ho ho. Dubya has vetoed it - but it will be shown at the Cannes and Toronto film festivals! Prepare to be shocked America - yet again!
    hey - have to give the Pressie some standing - he is a reformed alkie and druggie!
    Mise

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 07:12 PM   #141
    howard678
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jennita
    Whoo there howard,

    Yep, I suppose I didn't make myself clear on the "causing" mental illness but you did hit it on the head in trying to decipher what I meant....yes, it's the withdrawal syndrome and antisocial behavior you mentioned! Those things are exactly what is interpreted by the psychiatric community as mental illness! In fact, my difficulties in withdrawal was interpreted by a psych (what a mistake going to one of those for benzo) as "OCD"....apparentely, if one is desperately ill as I was decides to try and find out why (aka research), then they must have OCD. Before he found out I started researching my symptoms/problems with the benzo, he never mentioned I might have OCD. I didn't really have any of the symptoms anyway. But oh, yeah, he thought I should get on Luvox right away, despite the fact insomnia was a major side effect of that med in particular. What the.. ****?....that was my major withdrawal symptom and he was going to give me that ****?

    So misenterpreting benzo and SSRi's reactions/side effects/withdrawals is exactly what gets people in the mental illness trap. I am also glad you mentioned alcohol too, because it can cause all sorts of anti-social behaviors, depression, and this can also be classed mental disease...after all, they do say alcholism is a "disease".....another mental one at that.

    Sue Budweiser? C'mon howard, that's like suing McDonalds for being fat....anyone forcing you to eat the cheeseburger, or claiming it's a health food? The liquior industry makes no claims that alcohol is safe or cures any disease....unlike the drug companies. Alcohol is not recommended or imposed as medicine. There is no misleading or false claims of safety there.....

    You forget, I'm an Ashton fan too. She also speaks of Protracted Benzo Withdrawal Syndrome. She doesn't guarentee you won't get it, only that most do not. But she states it does exist and is very real. Let's not assume, like the psychiatric community would, that anyone past two months withdrawal has to be nuts if they have symptoms still....that's just not true. That's the very thinking that causes normal, withdrawing/recovering people to be slapped back on meds they don't need.....
    LOL Jennita based on your internet personality you are obviously good people and understand that I am not trying to be mean spirited, only to stimulate discussion. I do not disagree with one word you have written above. No one will get away with labeling me mentally ill due to benzo withdrawals. I know what is going on.

    And on another point you made to another poster... I am grateful to Ray Nimmo for posting the Ashton Manual on the net, or perhaps I would have thought I was losing my mind with all the symptoms. And, no doubt, it would not have been hard to find a shrink to validate that. But in case you did not know, Ray`s forum and the Ashton Manual are not one in the same. This is not something I have merely deduced, they will come right out and tell you, "we do not agree with every word she wrote." From there follows many new and some inconsistent claims. These usually fall under the heading of "our collective experiences," and for me, were often the tougher sells...

    I have chosen to leave the site for the time being, maybe permanently as I could have already been kicked out again as my typed words at times seemed to be interpreted as attacks, but I was only testing the iron, put some fire on and see what is left and how solid it is, trying to learn. Part of a process, not intended as personal, is the way I was raised and trained throughout my education.

    I do wish them well, but cannot handle reading some of the horror stories at the moment. Plus what I need more than anything right now is coaching on non-drug means for trying to stay calm. My nervous system is vulnerable and there seems to be a clear coorelation between symptoms and stress triggers. I have found some people from that forum that help in that area and I communicate with them through other means. You might have some ideas on this yourself.

    P.S.
    The Budwieser comments were hyperbole. Your distinction is valid.

    Last edited by howard678; 05-07-2004 at 10:22 PM.

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 07:25 PM   #142
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    Re: when does it end

    <
    My apologies to the tree-hugging herbal-loving hippie since everyone is entitled to love any living thing they want.>> Jennita

    LOL Like Windysan, was only teasing here.

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 07:50 PM   #143
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mise ata ann
    Jumping in here.................
    I agree with you Windy..............to expect tapering for addicts is very hard - but has to be done for benzos because of the nature of its action on the brain. But I loathed the anti medic attitudes! Appalling. Counter productive. Hence the cult like status.
    BUT - I think Ashton is very credible and her research is authentic. She is one tough lady and continues to do battle with our Health Minister in the UK for the treatment of benzo addicts wanting to come off. Personally I think her Manual is an absol must for someone trying to get off benzos.
    But the rest.............. the mods......................... whew! But the man himself I have time for - unfortunately I think he may be ill now. Too too much ...........nothing else in his life but his forum?
    What do you think?

    Who the hell said Dubya? Isnt he the guy who is trying to stop Michael Moore pull the plug on the Bush/bin Laden family joint business industries - joint owners of an armaments factory in US. binLadens sold their stock on 9/12! ho ho ho. Dubya has vetoed it - but it will be shown at the Cannes and Toronto film festivals! Prepare to be shocked America - yet again!
    hey - have to give the Pressie some standing - he is a reformed alkie and druggie!
    Mise
    Well, I will take the addict label and believe in slow tapering, am down pretty low now. I had a very stressful week and would love as the Rolling Stones put it, to "take four more of these" but the eventual consquences of that scare me more than withdrawal symptoms. Can we imagine eating 20 blue Valiums a day and still not getting relief? These are damnable drugs to be sure.

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 07:55 PM   #144
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    Re: when does it end

    <> Jennita

    Actually, I would not be surprised if someone sues McDonalds for being fat. People are suing tobacco companies in spite of warning labels.

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 08:03 PM   #145
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by no patience
    thanks howard that means alot i consider you a friend to i needed to hear that as for being a role model thank you for that to and thanks for every thing you've been great all your info and advice has helped me so much i can't thank you enough kelleigh
    Kelliegh,

    Just wanted you to know that I am just a fellow traveler on this road like you, am no superman. Have a difficult time working some days. And have used some sick days. It is not easy, and if I had a good option not to work I would jump on it. But some of us just have to if we possibly can. You are brave. Keep that in mind.

    Last edited by howard678; 05-07-2004 at 09:12 PM.

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 10:48 PM   #146
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by windysan
    Hey Jennita,

    Just ribbing you a little. I find Ray's site pretty dangerous for the true addict. I really believe that true addicts have a real hard time tapering anything. The oppressive atmosphere in that forum gave me the willies, caused me resentment, was just unhealthy for my recovery. The whole "blaming the doctor" bit is a little overdone. Heck, I knew that valium was dope at around 10-years-old. By the way...I don't do herbs anymore either...hehehehehe.

    Glad to be here.

    the other dubya
    Yes, I agree, Ray's site really isn't for addicts. The blaming doctor thing is valid enough, at least in some cases....mine for one...because, you won't believe this but...yep....I didn't know what the Ativan was when it was prescribed to me. I'm not kidding here.

    I didn't even know that the cough syrup I was prescribed for bronchitis, that started my whole questionable "symptoms" which lead to my benzo prescriptions, had codiene in it.....and when I found out, well, you will laugh at me bigtime because I did not know codiene belonged to the narcotic, or opiate family. In my defense,(?)I had an over-protective mother....

    Well, I suppose as an adult I should have looked into things more. But strangely enough, throughout my whole history of doctors, I seemed to get ones that only prescribed antibiotics and had me take OTC meds. Now that I look back, that was quite unusual luck to get such conservative doctors.

    When my last doctor retired, I ran into one that prescribed a whole lot more than I was used to for infection/cold. I thought it was strange, but hey, she was the doctor. As my ordeal became a domino effect of this/that drug when I actually had withdrawals from the codiene, I had to educate myself and was surprised at all I read. But it took almost a year on benzos to realize what was going on. I know I passed up Ray's site alot, thinking it was something weird and/or for addicts so I did not read it intil I was so sick I was up for anything; any info, any help. I was very desparately ill.

    Now, although no expert, I do know a bit about psychoactive drugs to say the least and save alot of newstories on my computer about them.

    Oh well, no hard feelings about our postings here at any rate. I "get" the people on that site of Ray's because of my experience, but I'm also "getting " what you and howard are saying too.... I'm not taking sides on this at all. Some people do have other issues besides benzos. I know in some cases, benzos are not the only blame or factor. Sometimes I get a bit obsessed about this drug issue, due to anger of needless suffering, but I realize it also has to be put in perspective as the main goal here is to help and inform, not attack.

    Glad you are here too!!!!!

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 11:08 PM   #147
    Jennita
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    LOL Jennita based on your internet personality you are obviously good people and understand that I am not trying to be mean spirited, only to stimulate discussion. I do not disagree with one word you have written above. No one will get away with labeling me mentally ill due to benzo withdrawals. I know what is going on.

    And on another point you made to another poster... I am grateful to Ray Nimmo for posting the Ashton Manual on the net, or perhaps I would have thought I was losing my mind with all the symptoms. And, no doubt, it would not have been hard to find a shrink to validate that. But in case you did not know, Ray`s forum and the Ashton Manual are not one in the same. This is not something I have merely deduced, they will come right out and tell you, "we do not agree with every word she wrote." From there follows many new and some inconsistent claims. These usually fall under the heading of "our collective experiences," and for me, were often the tougher sells...

    I have chosen to leave the site for the time being, maybe permanently as I could have already been kicked out again as my typed words at times seemed to be interpreted as attacks, but I was only testing the iron, put some fire on and see what is left and how solid it is, trying to learn. Part of a process, not intended as personal, is the way I was raised and trained throughout my education.

    I do wish them well, but cannot handle reading some of the horror stories at the moment. Plus what I need more than anything right now is coaching on non-drug means for trying to stay calm. My nervous system is vulnerable and there seems to be a clear coorelation between symptoms and stress triggers. I have found some people from that forum that help in that area and I communicate with them through other means. You might have some ideas on this yourself.

    P.S.
    The Budwieser comments were hyperbole. Your distinction is valid.
    Yes, no hard feelings here. I did find a mix at the site of very helpful, encourging people and then there were those who fought alot and seemed more into complaining. I don't know if I told you, but the group I was in is not the one on Ray's site but an older one supported by a popular search engine I guess we can't name here. It was linked to his site, I haven't been to his site lately so I don't know if the link still exists but the group does.

    Later on, it seems Ray formed his own discussion board on his site. The old group helped me so tremendeously I can't describe it. Good people there at the time, some who had worked at the clinics for benzos there in England. I think many of them have moved on. I signed on to the new boards at Ray's but it did seem quite different so I didn't participate very long.

    The horror stories have to be told, yet like you said, if you already know what's going on, sometimes the endless freaking out stories can really be counterproductive. If one knows they suffer from benzo illness, that's the most important thing to learn......being subjected to endless ranting/horrors probably does not help an already stressful situation. Support and reassurance that one is not crazy or dying, that it's just the drugs, is most helpful and also any tips on dealing with the whole thing. I actually did benefit from chammomile tip someone gave me; also the tylenol and calcium too. But nothing was a magic bullet; however, I was grateful when things did help.

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 11:13 PM   #148
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    Well, I will take the addict label and believe in slow tapering, am down pretty low now. I had a very stressful week and would love as the Rolling Stones put it, to "take four more of these" but the eventual consquences of that scare me more than withdrawal symptoms. Can we imagine eating 20 blue Valiums a day and still not getting relief? These are damnable drugs to be sure.
    That is a horrifying thought!!!! !!!!!!!! I got a little taste of something like that when I could take 2 mgs. Ativan( worth around 20 mgs. valium) and not only wouldn't sleep, but was bright, wide awake and sharp...not so much as a little lightheaded. That scared me enough to start looking into the drugs more...

     
    Old 05-07-2004, 11:15 PM   #149
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    <> Jennita

    Actually, I would not be surprised if someone sues McDonalds for being fat. People are suing tobacco companies in spite of warning labels.
    I know. Isn't that insane????

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 03:13 AM   #150
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    Re: when does it end

    You've got it by the tail now. From here on it is a choice.

    Last edited by windysan; 06-02-2004 at 10:26 AM.

     
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