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    Old 04-17-2004, 01:33 PM   #16
    howard678
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    Re: when does it end

    No patience,

    Terminology has evolved and I actually agree with the distinction addiction/dependency that Jennita makes. True "addicts" are out to get a buzz or get wasted and benzos are often used by them to enhance alcohol highs or to come down from opiate and cocaine binges. But these rarely get "addicted" to "dependant" on or say "hooked" on benzos. Daily theraputic users often do. Yet some of these may increase doses in order to escape from life which may fall under "addiction." Frankly though, I am much more concerned with encouraging you to flush those pills than semantics. Why take a chance on the potentially worst and most long term withdrawal syndrome of all? Looking up the Ashton Manual on the net was a good suggestion...

    Jennita,

    Thanks for your concern. Am half way to the finish line. Got an excellent doc. I am "the same ole me," however. I read stories of people that spent months not answering the door or telephone. Well, in my case, there would be no telephone or door to answer... So I instead choose to listen to Ashton, who says a slow taper enables one "to go on with their normal lives." So far, so good. As to recovery time for the brain, makes perfect sense. Particulars, longevity in my individual case, will have to wait and see. No point in worrying about tomorrow. Can only work to screw up today.

     
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    Old 04-17-2004, 04:45 PM   #17
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    No patience,

    Terminology has evolved and I actually agree with the distinction addiction/dependency that Jennita makes. True "addicts" are out to get a buzz or get wasted and benzos are often used by them to enhance alcohol highs or to come down from opiate and cocaine binges. But these rarely get "addicted" to "dependant" on or say "hooked" on benzos. Daily theraputic users often do. Yet some of these may increase doses in order to escape from life which may fall under "addiction." Frankly though, I am much more concerned with encouraging you to flush those pills than semantics. Why take a chance on the potentially worst and most long term withdrawal syndrome of all? Looking up the Ashton Manual on the net was a good suggestion...

    Jennita,

    Thanks for your concern. Am half way to the finish line. Got an excellent doc. I am "the same ole me," however. I read stories of people that spent months not answering the door or telephone. Well, in my case, there would be no telephone or door to answer... So I instead choose to listen to Ashton, who says a slow taper enables one "to go on with their normal lives." So far, so good. As to recovery time for the brain, makes perfect sense. Particulars, longevity in my individual case, will have to wait and see. No point in worrying about tomorrow. Can only work to screw up today.
    howard my therapist said i would only be on these for 4 to5 weeks i take them to get rid of the rage and constant panic attacks i was having also for the 2 1/2 months i was off methadone i felt a constant prickly pins and needles feeling in my arms face and back of neck it was like the feeling that comes over your body when you are in a horrifying situation and the klonopin took that away i couldnt stand it anymore im not a violent person but let me tell it was coming to it this methadone thing really messed me up physical addiction to me is a crock i dont care if its heroin or what ever other drug they say physical addiction comes with no phychological addiction well the experts can talk to me and if the klonopin is gonna help me at least feel like a human being instead of pin cushin and help me beable to go out and function in society im gonna continue im sorry if i sound like a bi--- but im just so sick of this long drawn out ****** process i guess thats why im no patience thanks so much i really appreciate your input love and peace kelleigh

     
    Old 04-17-2004, 04:54 PM   #18
    SimplyStupid
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    Re: when does it end

    Jennita~ you are the first person on here to really put into words what a BENZO can do. I am living proof of what a HORROR you will go thru if you abuse and stop. As I stated in another thread, it took me well over a year to regain control over my body. I had to RELEARN how to write my name. thats just the beginning of the hell I went thru. I have NO idea why these docs write them so freely. You could never get me to take another one. I would tell anybody to just bo-up and bear it before you take a benzo for the wd's....but anyway, I've never really talked to anybody that went thru what I did and you're the closest that I've seen describe it. ~SS

     
    Old 04-17-2004, 05:28 PM   #19
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SimplyStupid
    Jennita~ you are the first person on here to really put into words what a BENZO can do. I am living proof of what a HORROR you will go thru if you abuse and stop. As I stated in another thread, it took me well over a year to regain control over my body. I had to RELEARN how to write my name. thats just the beginning of the hell I went thru. I have NO idea why these docs write them so freely. You could never get me to take another one. I would tell anybody to just bo-up and bear it before you take a benzo for the wd's....but anyway, I've never really talked to anybody that went thru what I did and you're the closest that I've seen describe it. ~SS
    ss jennita definitly did give some awesome information i am horrifyed to hear the story of what you went through i thought my detox from methadone was bad im so glad to hear that part of your hell is over im not sure if your fully recovered but if your not i hope you will be soon love and peace kelleigh

     
    Old 04-17-2004, 05:41 PM   #20
    howard678
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tryinmybest
    Paitence,

    After two months and with a dose of 30 mgs you should not be feeling any residual effects of the meth. I think your anxiety is unrelated. The meth is a good mask for these things. Meth is a long acting drug. It seems to drag you down forever after you quit. But at two months, the physical withdrawal symptoms are gone. We sometimes link all of our woes to our encounters with opiates. I've kicked much higher doses several times. Most of my methadone detoxes were courtesy of the state. No weaning, no xanax, if you get my picture. Takes 30 days to really start to get your full energy back. My belief is you got the physical part licked!

    TMB
    No patience. I empathize, promise. Above is what a prior poster told you. You have been off two months, and from what I have read, heard, and seen, your physical withdrawal from opiates should be over. Did you have panic attacks before you became addicted to opiates? The issues that caused one to want drugs will usually be waiting for the user once they are off them, IMO.

    Less than a month of Klonopin use probably would not produce any physical dependance, but what is the plan after that? If you still have intense anxiety I assure you that you can find someone to give you more Klonopin or Xanax. Was never a problem for me. Then you are heading down the road... For those that must have meds to function because of these issues SSRIs more likely to be a better short term solution because there is much less propensity to build tolerance, and the withdrawal syndromes, when they occur, are known to be shorter and less severe.

    I know what it is like to need to function, as unlike many in cyberspace, I do not have the personal resources stay at home 6 month or a year then go job hunting again. Unless you want to call an automobile or a refrigerator box a home. I had some panic attacks when trying to come off Xanax or Klonopin because the withdrawals made me feel like I was having a heart attack. Well, I have had extensive tests done and I am healthy as a horse, aside from benzo dependency. So if I feel a bit of anxiety coming on, which everyone has to some degree, I do not "freak out" or believe the lie, at least have not in many months. There are non-drug methods for coping with these problems. CBT therapy being one.

     
    Old 04-17-2004, 09:35 PM   #21
    Jennita
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    Re: when does it end

    Simply,

    I'm very sorry for what you went through...I hear you...after the hell I went through, I would never take one again either! I'm glad you got away from those horrible pills, some people never escape. I guess we are both very fortunate!

    Howard,

    I'm so happy you are pushing on...I remember your old thread and you were really suffering, sometimes I did think you were not going to follow through. I know withdrawal was one of the worst experiences of my life, so I don't blame people who give up, only that it's scary to think what will become of them one day.

    I developed such a high tolerance to my prescribed 2mgs. Ativan ,I could take that dose at night and be wide/bright awake the entire night and this could happen sometimes 4 nights in a row! It had absolutely no effect. So I looked down the road a bit one day and realized where I would end up. Meanwhile , my doctor wasn't concerned about addiction (he didn't mention dependancy) and I suppose he thought I was in such a mental state that I could literally force myself to not sleep for all those days despite the fact that 2 mgs. Ativan at one time is plenty to knock most people cold. I guess he never heard of tolerance withdrawals. But neither had I then, or I would have never taken those pills to start with.

    No Patience,

    All of us here can sympathize with you, having been through it too. If you are going to take the Klonopin anyway, well, at least stick to the time frame your doc suggested and no more, then insist he help you do a very, very slow taper... and not necessarily what is deemed the standard "safe" taper, sometimes that is even too fast! The Ashton Manual can help. And please do not let him insist you need these drugs for life...you do not, I can assure you. Myself and tons of other people I've read about that were told that found, in the end, it was not true.

    I hope it goes smooth for you...you might be one of the lucky ones and not have a severe withdrawal...hopefully so. Lots of luck to you.

     
    Old 04-18-2004, 12:56 PM   #22
    howard678
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    Re: when does it end

    Jennita,

    Yea, I suffered pretty bad for 3 months trying to get off, was using the wrong tapering medium (Klonopin) and had my dose cut in half by the doc from the get go. C/T is not easy. Yet have only used 5 sick days this year. Less than average. lol I had no support other than the net and most of what I read there were all but promises of becoming cripled and homebound. Ashton however says that symptoms typically disappear within 3 months of coming off, and that slow tapering typically enables one to keep their normal life. I stand on this, work on my spiritual life, and have e-mails and telephone going with people on the same page as me. I am not in the internet support forums. Got a good doc this time. I am not worried. What good would it do? I turn a deal ear to anyone that tries to drag me down. I do like this board though. Gives me some opportunities to encourage and warn, and learn also.

     
    Old 04-18-2004, 01:26 PM   #23
    Jennita
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    Re: when does it end

    Sounds like you have it all together. I didn't have the benefit of the Ashton stuff when I tapered too quickly off Ativan, so I did get the protracted stuff peolple mention. But I noticed most of the severe anxiety stuff did go after only a few months. The insomnia hung on for years, but the severity of it diminished over time. The first year was the worst. I never had some of the other stuff like depersonization/derealization....alot of people it seemed were on antidepressants during withdrawals in the support groups so maybe that was a factor?

    See, when I investigated, I didn't just investigate benzos...I went for all the psychoactive drugs, so when I quit Ativan, no other drugs were even a consideration for me. So although I did suffer alot during my withdrawal and recovery, I never once felt out of touch with the world or myself, or felt crippled in any way. I never once considered any other drugs to get me through....I was finally educated about those pills...fool me once, because I don't allow it twice!

    I used to be quite an athletic sort, so I even went to the gym several times a week during my worst withdrawals....not much of a workout achieved but I was determined to get back to my old self....all it would take is a few hours sleep for me to get up and go there, sure, I was tired but I knew it was good for me.

    Sounds like you have the same determination. When you do hit a bump in the road, there's no shame in feeling down. It's not an easy thing, getting off these benzos.

     
    Old 04-18-2004, 02:27 PM   #24
    howard678
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    Re: when does it end

    Jennita,

    It all seems to be in the long half life of the Valium, that and the gradual reduction. The support forums gave me that, as did the founder of one of them give us all the Ashton Manual. So a debt of gratitude is owed, and I have expressed it. Just too much for me reading in them at this time. I did not really want to taper before. It was not anxiety that did me in C/T, it was back, head, and neck pressure. Would probably have toughed it out if I had it to do over but hindsight is 20/20.

    Your situation sounds reasonable. I fully expect to feel the after effects of these drugs for some time once I come off. I guess is sort of like rebooting your computer. But I also expect to function. Insomnia: I have been plagued by that for 10 years, way before benzos. I have been over-worked, first with working on advanced degrees and now with two jobs, one that requires getting up at the crack of dawn and has steady confrontations. Doc says to quit afternoon naps even though I come home exhausted. This may require caffeine. lol Also, there are times, especially now that the Valium is less sedative, that I have to knock myself out with antihistamine. It is that or work all day with no sleep. Is always a last resort. I`d skip it if I did not have to get up and work. What has been your experience, if any, with sleep aids during withdrawals? I do not see my insomnia so much as a withdrawal symptom, just things back to normal. I have a several friends at work that also have sleep problems. Know one guy that has been functioning on about 3 hours sleep a night for many years. He takes not meds except Beta blockers which he needs.

     
    Old 04-18-2004, 03:25 PM   #25
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jennita
    Simply,

    I'm very sorry for what you went through...I hear you...after the hell I went through, I would never take one again either! I'm glad you got away from those horrible pills, some people never escape. I guess we are both very fortunate!

    Howard,

    I'm so happy you are pushing on...I remember your old thread and you were really suffering, sometimes I did think you were not going to follow through. I know withdrawal was one of the worst experiences of my life, so I don't blame people who give up, only that it's scary to think what will become of them one day.

    I developed such a high tolerance to my prescribed 2mgs. Ativan ,I could take that dose at night and be wide/bright awake the entire night and this could happen sometimes 4 nights in a row! It had absolutely no effect. So I looked down the road a bit one day and realized where I would end up. Meanwhile , my doctor wasn't concerned about addiction (he didn't mention dependancy) and I suppose he thought I was in such a mental state that I could literally force myself to not sleep for all those days despite the fact that 2 mgs. Ativan at one time is plenty to knock most people cold. I guess he never heard of tolerance withdrawals. But neither had I then, or I would have never taken those pills to start with.

    No Patience,

    All of us here can sympathize with you, having been through it too. If you are going to take the Klonopin anyway, well, at least stick to the time frame your doc suggested and no more, then insist he help you do a very, very slow taper... and not necessarily what is deemed the standard "safe" taper, sometimes that is even too fast! The Ashton Manual can help. And please do not let him insist you need these drugs for life...you do not, I can assure you. Myself and tons of other people I've read about that were told that found, in the end, it was not true.

    I hope it goes smooth for you...you might be one of the lucky ones and not have a severe withdrawal...hopefully so. Lots of luck to you.
    jennita thanks for your support

     
    Old 04-19-2004, 11:00 AM   #26
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    Re: when does it end

    Your welcome, no patience. Sometimes we have to educate ourselves on some of these issues because doctors are usually too busy to look into details of things like withdrawal syndromes. Best wishes to you!

    Howard,

    Well, it sounds like the insomnia of your past was from overwork and bad sleep schedule. Napping does seem to exasperate that sort of thing. I wouldn't know really; the only time of my life I had insomnia at all was when I was exposed to prescription drugs, and of course the withdrawal syndrome. Before that, I slept like a teenager practically...a good 7-8 hours everynight...I don't know if it was genetics, or the fact I exercised alot, or that milk was my choice with a steak dinner instead of wine. I was not a health nut(I like my chocolate and sodas) but I did have an interest in healthy lifestlyle. I especially like weight training.

    As far as sleep aids during withdrawals, I found it was hit-and-miss. Some nights, one thing would work, but not always.

    I did get good results from double-bagging chamomile tea into just a half cup water a little before bedtime. Milk sometimes worked too; either warm or cold. I seemed to get results from calcium supplements around an hour or a half hour before bed. When my sleep started to improve, Benedryl did help me on nights it looked like I wouldn't drift off at all.

    And I remember another thing that helped me....believe it or not, plain tylenol. Someone in the support group mentioned that a drop in body temp encourages sleep. Again, this was not a sure-everynight thing, but it was wonderful when it actually worked, and it did quite a few times. Benzos /withdrawals seem to mess with body temp as well.

    I've heard some people swear by Valerian Root but I didn't try it; I guess the fact it was toted as a weaker version of Valium turned me off of it. I thought it might be too simular. But really, I'm sure it is safe enough. Check with your doctor anyway. Melantonin is another one I was a bit afraid of, but maybe you could ask about that one too.

    I think there are alot of things you could try out there; all are definately safer than prescription drugs! Let me know how it goes....

     
    Old 04-19-2004, 06:24 PM   #27
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    Re: when does it end

    Jennita,

    Today is day one of cutting the naps out. Has been a fight but looks like I have made it and will be to bed soon. This might be the ticket. Thanks.

     
    Old 04-20-2004, 09:31 AM   #28
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jennita
    Your welcome, no patience. Sometimes we have to educate ourselves on some of these issues because doctors are usually too busy to look into details of things like withdrawal syndromes. Best wishes to you!

    Howard,

    Well, it sounds like the insomnia of your past was from overwork and bad sleep schedule. Napping does seem to exasperate that sort of thing. I wouldn't know really; the only time of my life I had insomnia at all was when I was exposed to prescription drugs, and of course the withdrawal syndrome. Before that, I slept like a teenager practically...a good 7-8 hours everynight...I don't know if it was genetics, or the fact I exercised alot, or that milk was my choice with a steak dinner instead of wine. I was not a health nut(I like my chocolate and sodas) but I did have an interest in healthy lifestlyle. I especially like weight training.

    As far as sleep aids during withdrawals, I found it was hit-and-miss. Some nights, one thing would work, but not always.

    I did get good results from double-bagging chamomile tea into just a half cup water a little before bedtime. Milk sometimes worked too; either warm or cold. I seemed to get results from calcium supplements around an hour or a half hour before bed. When my sleep started to improve, Benedryl did help me on nights it looked like I wouldn't drift off at all.

    And I remember another thing that helped me....believe it or not, plain tylenol. Someone in the support group mentioned that a drop in body temp encourages sleep. Again, this was not a sure-everynight thing, but it was wonderful when it actually worked, and it did quite a few times. Benzos /withdrawals seem to mess with body temp as well.

    I've heard some people swear by Valerian Root but I didn't try it; I guess the fact it was toted as a weaker version of Valium turned me off of it. I thought it might be too simular. But really, I'm sure it is safe enough. Check with your doctor anyway. Melantonin is another one I was a bit afraid of, but maybe you could ask about that one too.

    I think there are alot of things you could try out there; all are definately safer than prescription drugs! Let me know how it goes....
    jennita youre definitly right my primary doc and my pain doc both said after 2wks from withdrawaling from methadone i'd be fine look at me almost 3 months later still a basket case and feeling like i'm living someone elses life if they are gonna hand out all these scripts like candy they need to tell you the consequences i knew nothing about methadone when i started taking it if i was more informed of the after effects insted of a little pharmacy paper this could be habit forming why doesnt it say if you ever have to stop taking this medication prepare to feel like your in hell for months thanks had to vent just so angry kelleigh

     
    Old 04-20-2004, 10:34 AM   #29
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    Re: when does it end

    farmboy 7 you posted me a few days ago about weaning off methadone just wondered how it was going and if you made your decision kelleigh

     
    Old 04-20-2004, 11:52 AM   #30
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    Re: when does it end

    Ah, yes, anger is an appropriate response. I was angry for a long time...actually, I still get angry now and then about the whole ordeal I went through. Well, what can you do, except warn others. They are prescribing psychiatric drugs for everything but sneezing these days (thank goodness for Claritin or maybe that wouldn't be true) and it's sickening.

    But at least some of the stuff is hitting the fan...aka the latest bad press about antidepressants and most importantly, the misleading information from clinical trials for those drugs....pharma co's have been filing away the clinical trials that showed very poor results, and also have not accurately presented the positive ones. A recent article on Msnbc shows that the drug co's misrepresented how effective the AD's are at all. Wow, what a surprise, huh...people like Dr. Ann Tracy has been saying this for years. Thank goodness, because they are giving more and more children drugs. I guess they weren't making enough millions on adults. Well, now they are being investigated....

    Sorry for the rant, but I think you are yet another victim of this system. Well, I do hope you can eventually slow taper off your klonopin and feel better. Be patient; it takes time, a long time sometimes but in the end you will be ok again!

     
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