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    Old 05-24-2004, 08:57 AM   #46
    no patience
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mise ata ann
    Howard
    Just wanted to encourage you. I took 8 months to come off 2 mg ativan (20 mg valium). I believe Ashton too to be the authorative word on the subject. I understand that Jennita had prolonged symptoms post withdrawal? Well - after I took my final .5mg of valium - I did take a while longer to feel "up and running". The 3 months as stated by Ashton is prob about right I guess. My worst symptoms post taper were insomnia & lethargy -took 3 - 6 months for them to work themselves out. But, Howard, I think you really hit a chord when you talked of benzo withdrawal compared to say drink/opiates. People seem to do withdrawal time and time again with drink and with opiates? But I dont know of anyone (altho there must be some) who ever did more than one benzo taper. It is sooooooooo long and arduous that it would really take some forgetting? I cannot imagine (touch wood!) myself ever again being there. But, in here, time and time again you hear people talking of tapering off opiates again. It doesnt seem to matter how much you try to explain and warn about benzos - people have closed ears. Having talked at length about benzos and taking as prescribed as medication by the doctor and becoming addicted thro no fault of our own and certainly not by abusing - a poster above yet again says that he has never abused benzos! Its like talking to a brick wall!
    Jennita and Howard - well done you two. Are we the only 3 in the world to successfully taper benzos?
    Rosie - I know you are trying to slowly come off your K - take care and persevere and listen to Howard. (and Jennita) He is living the "hell" I have so often (obviously unsuccessfully) tried to warn of. But Rosie - maybe you are already there. Hope so and look forward to hearing how you are!
    Love
    Mise
    mise i give you howard and jennita so much credit like i said i am not really that experienced in the benzo department but all of what has been written is really frightening i'm on klonopin unfortunatly and i'm really scared i went through the worst methadone w/d and 4 months later still suffering and and i don't need another nightmare in my life methadone was enough i have an appt today with the dr prescribing me klonopin and lets just say i have a lot of questions for her you all must have suffered and still suffering an awful nightmare to be so persistant in trying to stop this madness i never abused my methadone either and still suffered pretty severly and still am i think i'm the same way to methadone that you are to benzos i want to stop people from taking it so they don't live through this horrific experience but i want to thank you for sharing your stories all 3 of you have really opened my eyes the widest they can be i'm so proud of you all for doing away with the evil keep posting ok even if you change one persons mind your doing your job thanks mise kelleigh

    Last edited by no patience; 05-24-2004 at 08:59 AM.

     
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    Old 05-24-2004, 11:53 AM   #47
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mise ata ann
    Howard
    Just wanted to encourage you. I took 8 months to come off 2 mg ativan (20 mg valium). I believe Ashton too to be the authorative word on the subject. I understand that Jennita had prolonged symptoms post withdrawal? Well - after I took my final .5mg of valium - I did take a while longer to feel "up and running". The 3 months as stated by Ashton is prob about right I guess. My worst symptoms post taper were insomnia & lethargy -took 3 - 6 months for them to work themselves out. But, Howard, I think you really hit a chord when you talked of benzo withdrawal compared to say drink/opiates. People seem to do withdrawal time and time again with drink and with opiates? But I dont know of anyone (altho there must be some) who ever did more than one benzo taper. It is sooooooooo long and arduous that it would really take some forgetting? I cannot imagine (touch wood!) myself ever again being there. But, in here, time and time again you hear people talking of tapering off opiates again. It doesnt seem to matter how much you try to explain and warn about benzos - people have closed ears. Having talked at length about benzos and taking as prescribed as medication by the doctor and becoming addicted thro no fault of our own and certainly not by abusing - a poster above yet again says that he has never abused benzos! Its like talking to a brick wall!
    Jennita and Howard - well done you two. Are we the only 3 in the world to successfully taper benzos?
    Rosie - I know you are trying to slowly come off your K - take care and persevere and listen to Howard. (and Jennita) He is living the "hell" I have so often (obviously unsuccessfully) tried to warn of. But Rosie - maybe you are already there. Hope so and look forward to hearing how you are!
    Love
    Mise
    Thanks a lot. I sure could live with lethargy and insomnia for 3 to 6 months. I am an old hat with insomnia, have had it for most of my adult life. Very often sleep has come only at the point of exhaustion. That is why I liked Xanax, it knocked me out with zero side effects. And I was an exception to Ashton`s rule. It worked great for over a year at the same dose, until, you know the rest of the story...

     
    Old 05-24-2004, 12:25 PM   #48
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mise ata ann
    Howard
    Just wanted to encourage you. I took 8 months to come off 2 mg ativan (20 mg valium). I believe Ashton too to be the authorative word on the subject. I understand that Jennita had prolonged symptoms post withdrawal? Well - after I took my final .5mg of valium - I did take a while longer to feel "up and running". The 3 months as stated by Ashton is prob about right I guess. My worst symptoms post taper were insomnia & lethargy -took 3 - 6 months for them to work themselves out. But, Howard, I think you really hit a chord when you talked of benzo withdrawal compared to say drink/opiates. People seem to do withdrawal time and time again with drink and with opiates? But I dont know of anyone (altho there must be some) who ever did more than one benzo taper. It is sooooooooo long and arduous that it would really take some forgetting? I cannot imagine (touch wood!) myself ever again being there. But, in here, time and time again you hear people talking of tapering off opiates again. It doesnt seem to matter how much you try to explain and warn about benzos - people have closed ears. Having talked at length about benzos and taking as prescribed as medication by the doctor and becoming addicted thro no fault of our own and certainly not by abusing - a poster above yet again says that he has never abused benzos! Its like talking to a brick wall!
    Jennita and Howard - well done you two. Are we the only 3 in the world to successfully taper benzos?
    Rosie - I know you are trying to slowly come off your K - take care and persevere and listen to Howard. (and Jennita) He is living the "hell" I have so often (obviously unsuccessfully) tried to warn of. But Rosie - maybe you are already there. Hope so and look forward to hearing how you are!
    Love
    Mise
    Hi! Yeh, I had the protracted version of withdrawal. Even at over 3 years off, I still have some sleep difficulties and those countless vivid dreams(the sign the brain is still healing) still rage on but now I do get enough sleep to feel like a human again, thank goodness but it did take 2 years off pills to finally get to that point.

    I think it was mainly because I was a complainer at the doctor's office. I wouldn't just sit and say all is ok when all wasn't ok; so they did alot of drug-switching, although most of them were different benzos. My list of drugs included restorial, ativan, klonopin,Ambien, Sonata, Serzone(around 5 wks) all within 8 months. I'd be on one, them another. I even took Paxil for 2 days but I threw up too much. The Serzone caused the same thing after a few weeks so I had to stop that one. I'm not one to throw up alot even when having a virus, so it was quite unusual. The one I took the longest was Ativan.

    So I do attribute the drug switching and then a fairly short taper off the last one, Ativan, to my protracted withdrawals....if only I had even heard of Ashton back then!!! I didn't know; the only thing I did know was I had to take at least a few weeks to avoid seizures from cold turkey. I tapered without telling my doctor, who was all ready to keep me on ATivan for life, despite the fact it had literally stopped working.....I could swallow a 2 mg. Ativan pill and still be bright awake all night. He said I wasn't addicted! Well, tolerance is a sure sign of that....he had to know or really be sucked up into the whole abuse-in-order-to-become-addicted thing....durrrrrr.

     
    Old 05-24-2004, 03:23 PM   #49
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Jennita
    I am so so sorry to hear of your experience and those awful protracted symptoms. Your medical experience is not all that unusual. How often do you hear people in here talking about the most amazing cocktails of drugs that they are on? If one doesnt work - bang in another? Why do doctors do that? Is it negligence? stupidity? or just profit motive? Some people go from xanax to klonopin to ambien and sometimes take 2 out of the 3 ..................... going straight to hell in my books.
    Glad to hear that you are getting there. But your post is just what is needed. I really doubt that people really do know that symptoms can last for years........... but I'm so sorry its you that had to put it up! My battle too was with ativan - and like you 2 mg finally did nothing for me - so I stopped - HUGE MISTAKE - anyway - on day 3 off I found Ashton - thank God - and you know the rest.......... I consider myself very very fortunate as I think Howard is too.
    Congratulations to you both - it really is a huge thing to get to grips with and to beat?
    No patience - yes - you make sure you ask the doc all the relevant questions and when you are ready to come off - ask for his proposals for your taper? Then you will know if you are dealing with a doctor who knows or not.
    I am sure Howard and Jennita have both pointed you towards Ashton - but DO READ IT. Print if off and read and read. If you taper as she suggests you won't fail. It isnt easy - but its doable. Wish you all the best.
    Mise

     
    Old 05-24-2004, 05:36 PM   #50
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mise ata ann
    I am just warning you - your doctors (for the most part) will prescribe them for you without knowing of the dangers and just how many of you were warned about the addiction and long slow withdrawal before you agreed to take the pills? The medical profession (particularly in the US) is profoundly ignorant about the benzos.
    Dont say you havent been warned!
    Mise
    Yes, for me that's correct and it's causing me a whole lot of problems now because I have to choose between the klonopin and the suboxone. The Dr. that originally prescribed the klonopin for me, was about 10 years ago, and I have been careful taking 0.5-1mg/day. But a long time. Only had relapsing with vicodin, etc. And now, I HATE being dependent upon this Dr. to even give them to me. He blames everything on my poor choices, which I have made, but takes no responsibility for what he got me started on. I had no clue they were so addictive. I hesitate to get off them now, because Im having a hard enough time getting off the suboxone, etc. that I was on. I don't know what is wrong, but I'm shaking from the inside out, and it's been a month or more. I'm going absolutely crazy.

    I feel like I can't make it through another day, since I left intensive day treatment and I'm on my own. Today, I actually had a beer, and I don't even usually drink, but I feel like physically, I'm going mad.

    I see another dr. on Thursday (an addictionologist who does prescribe suboxone) but it will be a very expensive ordeal since now my Insurance Co. won't cover it (they were before, before my mistake) and even when I came to the pharmacy just one day earlier to pick up my klonopin script, My Dr. called in only "14" klonopin whereas before has was calling in "90". Why? I don't know. I have to go visit him and fork out another $120 to find out WHY? I've never abused them under his care. So I wound up paying $30 for 14 pills, when it usually was $20 for 90 pills.

    He just wrote his second book and I think he's too important now to deal with people like me that can't afford to see him weekly. And he's often late in getting the klonopin to me, and I'm sure he is aware that you just don't stop taking this abruptly.

    This does not help my withdrawals right now. I feel the stress of all this and wish I could start all over. I can't switch Insurance Companies until November. Right now I'm a very unhappy camper

     
    Old 05-25-2004, 12:57 AM   #51
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mise ata ann
    Jennita
    I am so so sorry to hear of your experience and those awful protracted symptoms. Your medical experience is not all that unusual. How often do you hear people in here talking about the most amazing cocktails of drugs that they are on? If one doesnt work - bang in another? Why do doctors do that? Is it negligence? stupidity? or just profit motive? Some people go from xanax to klonopin to ambien and sometimes take 2 out of the 3 ..................... going straight to hell in my books.
    Glad to hear that you are getting there. But your post is just what is needed. I really doubt that people really do know that symptoms can last for years........... but I'm so sorry its you that had to put it up! My battle too was with ativan - and like you 2 mg finally did nothing for me - so I stopped - HUGE MISTAKE - anyway - on day 3 off I found Ashton - thank God - and you know the rest.......... I consider myself very very fortunate as I think Howard is too.
    Congratulations to you both - it really is a huge thing to get to grips with and to beat?
    No patience - yes - you make sure you ask the doc all the relevant questions and when you are ready to come off - ask for his proposals for your taper? Then you will know if you are dealing with a doctor who knows or not.
    I am sure Howard and Jennita have both pointed you towards Ashton - but DO READ IT. Print if off and read and read. If you taper as she suggests you won't fail. It isnt easy - but its doable. Wish you all the best.
    Mise
    Yes, I do hesitate to post how long it took me just to get decent sleep and that I still am not back to the way I slept before the drugs, because I don't want to upset or scare anyone into giving up. I remember how at first I was scared when one woman wrote me saying although she started sleeping again after 2 years off, it took her another 3 years for it to return to completely normal. But you know, you are right about it's best to know it can last that long.....I believe that knowledge can keep a person from believing the lie that something is indeed wrong with them and drugs are not to blame. So, I knew that when my sleep was still bad after one year, it wasn't me. Although there were setbacks and irregularities in my withdrawal(the benzo rollercoaster), I notice an upward improvement in my sleep overall. I am still improving, my low days aren't as low as even a few months ago, and I have more and more full nights of sleep!

    I think this is also important information to know because it proves the healing does not have a stopping point; it continues. In other words, if I had thought there would be no more healing after a certain point, say 1 year, I might have been convinced I needed some magic bullet drug or something to be able to sleep normal.

    But I am living proof that the healing continues past any pre-conceived notions about how long recovery takes! I think this is important for benzo users to know so they don't give up at the time when they or their doctor "think" enough time has passed to see any more improvents.

    My husband keeps a sleep log and graph on my sleep progress he started since my getting off the drugs....and it is amazing how the graph has been climbing and evening out! He's got an accurate record of my slow but steady progress. I even amazed me one day when he wanted to show me the difference from even six months ago.

    I do think his idea was good concerning keeping a log of my progress on his computer. It shows my sleep increases like a graph would show something like stock prices rising and falling. Only my stock hasn't gone down!......I guess I'm a good investment...

    Hey, congrats are in order for you too, misa!!

    Last edited by Jennita; 05-25-2004 at 12:59 AM.

     
    Old 05-25-2004, 08:52 PM   #52
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    I do not know what to say ladies, other than I am not on enough Valium to keep my BP and pulse rate off the high end, am I well over due for a cut. As to the drug switching, I give many docs the benefit of the doubt. It is their job to try and relieve suffering. Ignorant in some circumstances, surely, devious, rarely I think.

    Some like myself need to work. This may mean trying supplemental meds or abandoning the taper. That or joins the ranks of the homebound and wait on the evictions notices and re-po men. And let me tell you, the world will not be concerned in the least. People are mostly concerned about themselves. And as to those that do care, other than the few on the net that understand, do not believe me. They think it`s all psychological. Partly maybe, far from all. Mise and Jennita, the old pros at this. Please jump in. Want to hear what you have to say.

     
    Old 05-26-2004, 01:05 AM   #53
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    I do not know what to say ladies, other than I am not on enough Valium to keep my BP and pulse rate off the high end, am I well over due for a cut. As to the drug switching, I give many docs the benefit of the doubt. It is their job to try and relieve suffering. Ignorant in some circumstances, surely, devious, rarely I think.

    Some like myself need to work. This may mean trying supplemental meds or abandoning the taper. That or joins the ranks of the homebound and wait on the evictions notices and re-po men. And let me tell you, the world will not be concerned in the least. People are mostly concerned about themselves. And as to those that do care, other than the few on the net that understand, do not believe me. They think it`s all psychological. Partly maybe, far from all. Mise and Jennita, the old pros at this. Please jump in. Want to hear what you have to say.
    Howard, first of all, don't count on things like supplemental meds or abandoning the taper to keep you in the work force. At some point, meds either fail or start more problems with your health. I know of one woman who is bedridden after ten years on this or that med for what started out as mild depression. Her husband is up to his eyeballs in medical bills and will no doubt have to sell their house. He says in the last ten years, seems she has only gotton worse instead of better with all the meds and hospitals. This is not an internet hearsay story I got off the internet, because I know of this woman thru my mother-in-law who was a collegue of the woman's husband. Oh, yes, now the husband is depressed....I wonder why....

    I'm just trying to point out that you may not have a guarentee, with meds, of being someone who will always be able to work thanks to meds, because I know many people on these boards and others who cannot work and they are on meds. THeir condition has deteriorated, or simply not gotten better, or was better then the meds quit working and they are at square one again. THis is not the story of only benzos but other psych meds like AD's.

    I don't mean to tell you not to try whatever you can to stay gainfully employed...I understand it's important....nobody wants to be poor or on the street. But I'm just saying don't get your hopes up that changing your course on this will solve the problem of whether or not you will be able to keep working.

    On a hopeful note, I do know some people who managed to stay employed despite withdrawals. Not everyone loses their jobs because of this, howard, I doubt you will because you've managed all these years, even in light of past insomnia issues. That alone takes great determination! I think you are the type of person capable of getting through this withdrawal, job still intact!

    I myself happened to be a stay-at-home-mom already, due to having children too young, not having money for college, and finding out minumum wage did not pay any more than the babysitter's/daycare fee. If I had a degree or technical training first, my job would have paid enough to make it worthwhile.

    Yeh, I know, dumb move jumping into marriage and kids before 21 but I was smitten with the whole 50's family thing even though it was the 70's.......I know I would have done things differently looking back. Too late for that, but at least now I can go looking for a job in the fall and not worry about paying the babysitter, since my daughter is 21 and my son is 26!(although I think my son still could use a sitter.... )

    ANd remember, just because you are due for a cut doesn't mean you have to do it right this second! You could wait a few extra days or even weeks....this may give your brain extra time for adjustment and things could start to settle down enough then to cut again. Taking a bit more time won't hurt a thing and may help the situation. I know it isn't medication, but won't you try a little chammomile tea and see if it helps calm you a bit. You could drink it all day and it wouldn't hurt you. You might have to pee alot though.

    If you continue to have high BP, if it is in dangerous levels, best to consult your doc on perhaps taking a mild BP lowering medication. You do want to watch out for your health during this.

    Be patient. Keep in touch.

    Last edited by Jennita; 05-26-2004 at 01:08 AM.

     
    Old 05-26-2004, 02:24 AM   #54
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Hello all,

    Jennita - great husband! Lucky you to have such great support. I too was very lucky in that my husband let me get thro it without a single moan, cooking when I felt too ill to cook etc. But I think the psychological support is what finally makes a real impact on ability to keep on taper? As to recovery - you are so very frank - thank you for that. If I am really truthfull, then yes I must agree - my recovery does seem to get better and better as the months go by. I am only 10 months off now - and I suspect that my sleep and general feelings are better than at 6 months. But I think that the 6 month mark is huge in this whole process and I have focused on it and realised that is when I seemed to stop moaning about insomnia!! Perhaps I have moved on more - I dont even think or worry now about sleep etc. Slow gradual improvement?

    Howard

    Good to hear you voicing your fears and the truth of your situation. I am sorry - I dont really know your story and dont know how much valium you are now down to. It's difficult to add much to what Jennita says. There are indeed individuals who are out of the work place, some who had to temporarily give up during part of taper and others who managed to work and taper. For my part - I am a mother of 4 kids and work part time at home on a computer (an accountancy job - not all over demanding!! LOL) I managed - but that is all - I did truly have difficult symptoms and felt ill for the whole 8 months. I know I dont need to expand. I suspect you are in a somewhat more high powered job? But - again to refer back to Ashton - she does seem to suggest that you can work and taper and not allow the taper to take centre stage. I have personally spoken to several men with responsible managerial posts who could not have taken a day off work (or lose their jobs) and who managed taper and work. Albeit not easy. But everyone is so very different in this.
    You mention your BP? Now surely BP medication can be taken along with valium and hopefully you can continue to taper. I have certainly heard of that being done. Do you find your other symptoms to be so intolerable that you feel unable to work or is it this problem of BP? I also agree with Jennita generally about medication. OK - I'll give it to you that doctors are not actually malevolant - but I wouldnt like to hazard a guess at their knowledge of these newer drugs. They will believe what the pharmas claim? The anti depressants too seem a horrible alternative - and it seems to be a Catch 22 situation when you go down that route? OK - I know that really clininally depressed people benefit from anti-deps - but the depression caused by benzos can - for the most part - be dealt with in other ways.
    You say too that you are overdue for another cut in your taper? Is it the BP prob which is holding you back?
    Anecdotally - I had a couple of difficult glitches at about 15 mg and 6 mg - for some reason I got really badly affected at these doses - no logic to it - but it does seem to be the norm in taper. And I stayed put for longer at these doses and then just resumed. I was lucky in that at the really low end of the taper (around 2 mg) I started to feel much better - but often people find this extremely difficult. But how much there may be of a psychological factor here I dont know.
    From listening to you Howard, you sound pretty good to me - you have got valium, moved on with taper............................. no-one but no-one gets thro this without a problem or three?
    Take heart - you'll win this and still be a useful working member of society - you must keep believing this - there are plenty of people who have done this - just as there are some who simply could not take the symptoms of withdrawal and feel they have to stay on these awful drugs for life. That was not an alternative for me. I don't think it is for you?
    Keep talking?
    Mise

     
    Old 05-26-2004, 04:57 AM   #55
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    I do not know what to say ladies, other than I am not on enough Valium to keep my BP and pulse rate off the high end, am I well over due for a cut. As to the drug switching, I give many docs the benefit of the doubt. It is their job to try and relieve suffering. Ignorant in some circumstances, surely, devious, rarely I think.

    Some like myself need to work. This may mean trying supplemental meds or abandoning the taper. That or joins the ranks of the homebound and wait on the evictions notices and re-po men. And let me tell you, the world will not be concerned in the least. People are mostly concerned about themselves. And as to those that do care, other than the few on the net that understand, do not believe me. They think it`s all psychological. Partly maybe, far from all. Mise and Jennita, the old pros at this. Please jump in. Want to hear what you have to say.
    hi howard jennita mentioned chamomile tea i drank that and also i've taking a vitamin b complex i dont know how you feel about vitamins but they have helped me considerable in the anxiety department you say the world doesnt care but i do you have been there for me and i'm not experienced in benzo w/d but i did go through a nightmare myself and do understand some of your symptoms i just want to support and help you in anyway i can ok like jennita (i think it was her) if you have to wait on your cut that is ok i've been there when you want to give up because it's just affecting you're life so much but you made it this far i know i'm not in your shoes but i've been in the situation where you just want to throw in the towel almost 4 months off methadone i still think of just saying doc please put me back on it so i can achieve (if this is what you want to call it) normal function i know people believe opiates are a very quick recovery but i'm still suffering but i won't go back i know you're probably just having a moment where you're saying i just want this over that's why i posted when does it end but in the long run you'll see that getting off these is the best thing to do i wish you well howard you've been so strong and you still are have you mentioned to your doc that you're suffering you said he was pretty great so he will know what you need hugs to you howard kelleigh

    Last edited by no patience; 05-26-2004 at 04:59 AM.

     
    Old 05-26-2004, 01:48 PM   #56
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Jennita and Mise,

    I am grateful for and glad you are interested. Let me fill in some gaps so you can understand better and perhaps offer more suggestions. I already know what they would tell me on the big benzo board, "the only way out is through," "do not take any other meds or herbs, vitamins, etc," "there is no magic wand."

    1. I am at 12.5 mgs V, down from 25 mgs 4 months ago. I have not cut in 26 days, have never really felt stable here. Word is that if you wait longer than 4 weeks to cut you`ll get more symptoms. I have 2 mg tabs, feel I need to cut at least .5 mgs asap.

    2. I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, sometime a little more, of course docs suggest not quitting during withdrawal. I do drink soda with sugar in it, but not vast amounts.

    3. BP flirts with dangerous levels, 160/100 range. My BP is only what is considered "normal," 120/80 range, after I have taken my larger nightly Valium dose. It really gets better if I take a couple of Benadryl for sleep right after. That is at home. I have no idea how high the BP goes during stressful times on my feet. I have felt dizzy. Heart rates in the range of 100 to 120 have not been uncommon. I am not having states that I would consider "panic."

    4. Every time I see my doc he wants to put me on an AD. He says they have helped other patients he has tapered off of benzos. I did fill a script for trazadone. Took only one, bad dry mouth, no sedation to speak of. I have beta blockers, metaphoral. Do not like the side effects, shortness of breathe (common and listed), tight chest, and general wierd feeling. Have taken two. I have slow release that could be taken daily, or instant release that can be taken as needed. They do lower pulse rate and BP, will hand them that.

    The tea you speak of, Chamoline, must you go to a heath food store to get it?

    Kayleigh, thank you for caring, and I am praying for you.

     
    Old 05-26-2004, 04:46 PM   #57
    mise ata ann
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Hello again Howard,

    Thanks for the info. Your tapering down from 25 mg to 12.5 in 4 months is about the same rate at which I tapered. Yep - obviously you know the info at the benzo site and yep - for the most part I think they are right. (Dont care for the politics of the place! Will say no more). Being British I guess I am fairly typical in that I dont really believe in supplements - I have always been fairly cynical about them in general. Altho - to be fair - I do in fact drink camomile tea at night - but I love tea and I do like camomile in the evening. You can buy it anywhere. In US I think it may be called "sleepy time tea" too. It certainly wont do you any harm. But - as for the rest?
    Mmmm - your BP situation too? It is very common for BP to spike during taper as I am sure you know all too well. Again - being British - its not something I am very aware of - never took my BP throughout taper - only have it taken once a year at the doc's - it tends to be on the highish side - so I expect I did a few rockets on my way thro taper without ever knowing. But that is certainly something to be discussed seriously with your doctor - it has really to be outwith the realm of this sort of forum? But - if you can find a med (other than a beta blocker?) which helps - then why not? Surely there must be an alternative to beta blockers - they do not suit so many people - never mind those on taper.
    I see you mention sugar? Now - I have learnt - and have experienced - that this really does exacerbate withdrawal symptoms. I think it has something again to do with how sugar is converted in the body and how it acts on the "pleasure receptors" in the brain - not unlike other drugs. Time and time again during taper and just after - I was advised to avoid sugar like the plague. Maybe cutting down on your sugar intake might help a bit? Just a thought.
    You say you have been at this level of 12.5 mg for 26 days and yet you do not say why? Is it because you are experiencing "strong" withdrawal symptoms? It sounds more as though you have hit one of those "difficult" and "wobbly" doses - as I did at 15 mg and 6 mg. I never settled at 15 (or 6) - but after a month at 15 mg - I decided it could be no worse and continued on down at 1 mg per 10 days until I got to 10 mg - and it worked OK for me. I know that the benzo site always always tried to slow people down........... but I am not sure I agree with that. I felt I really needed to keep pushing on down - or the interminable thing would go on for ever and ever. And really there never did seem to be any real warning about when a particular drop in dosage would "slam you against the wall" for a bit. It is all so arbitrary? And therefore so frustrating?

    But at 12.5 mg - you are beginning to see the end of the tunnel? If I were you I would get on with the next cut now - what is the point of waiting longer? Tolerance is going to be setting in anyway - so you are on a hiding to nothing? Go for the cut - even if you are suffering from symptoms at least you are getting lower and achieving something....... working towards that goal? How much are you cutting each time? The 10% rule is quite a good guide and you may feel (as I did) that you could cut 1 mg to 11.5 mg at this point - but this has to be entirely up to you - your decision to make. However - just to let you know - I did manage the 1 mg cuts down to 10 mg ......and then sometimes 1 mg or .5 mg until I got down to 5............. then .5 mg every 10 days.................For me - it really did start to get much better at the 2 mg mark. If you can keep up the impetus then you are going to be free of these awful drugs in just a few months now. But you will make your own judgements about size and timing of these cuts. You have come thro the worst?
    Don't lose heart, Howard.......... it really sounds perfectly normal and that you have just hit one of those rocks on the road? Press on.
    As for anti-deps. Well - I guess you will know by now what I am likely to say! LOL If you can do without - then do. I think it's another addiction looming to go down that road? It's amazing the number of people (esp in US) who do take anti-deps alongside benzos.............. and after tapering benzos - you then have to face up to tapering off the bloomin anti-deps. No thank you! Not for me. One taper like this is one too many in my book - I am sure I would not want to add another!
    I dont know if anything I have said is of any relevance. Maybe you could say more of why you are sticking at this point and how your symptoms are? Tolerable?
    But stick with it Howard......... you really are on the homeward stretch and I know how easy it is to be discouraged. I can only imagine too how threatening it must be to affect your working ability. So - that's why I would say - keep going in your taper - the sooner (within reasonable limits) that you are actually off then the sooner you will heal and be able to deal with life again as you once did pre benzos.
    Keep talking?
    Speak again if I can help in any way.
    Mise

     
    Old 05-26-2004, 07:07 PM   #58
    Jennita
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    I tend to agree with Mise here on all counts....Mise, your'e British? I missed that; sometimes I don't pay attention to details.....love the accents, all the "bloomin n' bloody" phrases, absolutely love it! Big fan of the Brits here.

    Howard, chammomile is a very common tea; sold even in grocery stores. You can get it anywhere. Has a soothing effect on nerves; helped calm me during some bad withdrawals too. It's nothing magic and is usually way too mild to do much but will definately help. Milk is another soothing agent.

    You smoke....yikes. Not good. Did you smoke back in those years when you had that regular, non-benzo related insomnia? Could be a factor....nicotine has stimulant qualities and is spoken of often as a sleep bandit. Also is a real bad habit to have when the blood pressure is high, but you probably know that. I suspect you'd do better in the blood pressure dept. without them, but I guess your doc is right about quitting just yet, but, wouldn't it help to, let's say, smoke one less cigarette each day this week? Do you think it would bring on withdrawal to leave that one cig out? Then later, maybe two? Maybe you could lessen the load a bit without bringing on nicotine withdrawals???? A pack a day is too much. I'm surprized you are doing as well as you are considering all this.

    I admit, I'm not familiar with nicotine withdrawals; how long or severe and I know you don't need the stress of another withdrawal but the smoking is most definately not helping your cause here!

    My husband quit cigs cold turkey years back; he only seemed to have problems for around a week, but I don't think he smoked a whole pack a day.

     
    Old 05-26-2004, 08:16 PM   #59
    howard678
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Mise and Jennita,

    Mise I thought (could have misread one of your posts) it was more than the politics that you did not agree with at that site, but also the staunch ant-auxillary meds, herbal remedies, etc. stance. People are not allowed to even discuss such things. Here they, unapologetically, part company with Ashton. This while talking about things like shaking for a month, and "could it be the cooked foods I ate?," is perfectly allowed.

    They also have little belief in mental illness, this even though all societies since the beginning of history have had an abundance of the insane. I was told there that these are mostly "spiritual problems" but procelytizing is forbidden and there is no exorcism services offered. I am being real, not sarcastic. I personally have no mental illness history, but how many are told, people they do not know from Adam, to get off all their meds? This is perhaps to the real peril of the sufferer, like all ones prior issues will magically go away with a slow Valium taper...

    I agree it is best to get through this without extra meds. I was fine enough before any meds. However, I have had long periods of rapid heartbeat and high BP, accompanied by feelings of dizziness. My symptoms also include muscle tightness, stabbing pains (not severe), and electric sensations. And I do have some very important work to do this summer. This all is why I have sat at this dose, 12.5. Yet I am cutting tonight, and Jennita yes, I can smoke one less cigarette day and cut down on sugar. Nonetheless, it is dangerous for a man my age to go around with high BP and rapid heartbeat. I am not real big on the idea of getting "through" this in a casket in order to adhere to an internet ideology that has spawned from yet departed from Heather Ashton.

    What is the problem with beta blockers? I know people that have taken them for years with no problems and they have been life savers. They hold down heart rates and BP, and did in my case. But I do not like a couple of the side effects. I got these after, once again, talking the doc out of the AD. But if the AD gets one through the Valium taper and withdrawal, still functioning and working when one very much needs to, why not? The AD would have to be tapered but these withdrawals are by most reports I have read are less severe, and ADs seem much less prone to produce tolerance than benzos. Nonetheless, if this can be done "all natural" I am all for it. That is my preference. Thanks again. Guess you can tell I`m feeling a bit better tonight. :-)

    P.S. As to the question, are my withdrawal symptoms tolerable? No, High BP and pulse rates for extended periods is not tolerable. Such can cause permanent organ damage, and when I am in one of these epiosodes, I cannot function.

    Last edited by howard678; 05-26-2004 at 10:25 PM.

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 12:04 AM   #60
    Jennita
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    Mise and Jennita,

    Mise I thought (could have misread one of your posts) it was more than the politics that you did not agree with at that site, but also the staunch ant-auxillary meds, herbal remedies, etc. stance. People are not allowed to even discuss such things. Here they, unapologetically, part company with Ashton. This while talking about things like shaking for a month, and "could it be the cooked foods I ate?," is perfectly allowed.

    They also have little belief in mental illness, this even though all societies since the beginning of history have had an abundance of the insane. I was told there that these are mostly "spiritual problems" but procelytizing is forbidden and there is no exorcism services offered. I am being real, not sarcastic. I personally have no mental illness history, but how many are told, people they do not know from Adam, to get off all their meds? This is perhaps to the real peril of the sufferer, like all ones prior issues will magically go away with a slow Valium taper...

    I agree it is best to get through this without extra meds. I was fine enough before any meds. However, I have had long periods of rapid heartbeat and high BP, accompanied by feelings of dizziness. My symptoms also include muscle tightness, stabbing pains (not severe), and electric sensations. And I do have some very important work to do this summer. This all is why I have sat at this dose, 12.5. Yet I am cutting tonight, and Jennita yes, I can smoke one less cigarette day and cut down on sugar. Nonetheless, it is dangerous for a man my age to go around with high BP and rapid heartbeat. I am not real big on the idea of getting "through" this in a casket in order to adhere to an internet ideology that has spawned from yet departed from Heather Ashton.

    What is the problem with beta blockers? I know people that have taken them for years with no problems and they have been life savers. They hold down heart rates and BP, and did in my case. But I do not like a couple of the side effects. I got these after, once again, talking the doc out of the AD. But if the AD gets one through the Valium taper and withdrawal, still functioning and working when one very much needs to, why not? The AD would have to be tapered but these withdrawals are by most reports I have read are less severe, and ADs seem much less prone to produce tolerance than benzos. Nonetheless, if this can be done "all natural" I am all for it. That is my preference. Thanks again. Guess you can tell I`m feeling a bit better tonight. :-)

    P.S. As to the question, are my withdrawal symptoms tolerable? No, High BP and pulse rates for extended periods is not tolerable. Such can cause permanent organ damage, and when I am in one of these epiosodes, I cannot function.
    You brought up the question about AD's "getting one through a Valium taper, then why not"..... well, what I was trying to convey earlier is that AD's are not guarenteed to get anyone thru a taper, and sometimes could cause delay in the brain getting back to a normal function. It's trying to regain itself but then another onslaught of more chemicals could confuse things.

    Alot of people have gotten no or only a short spell of relief, only to have it come back full force. One guy, who was singing the praises of trazadone helping him after getting off klonopin, found it to quickly lose effect and he ended up in a hospital from exhaustion. He relyed on it to help him sleep but the sleep worsened very quickly after the intial help. Last I heard, he took up taking Xanax and wasn't heard from again. Don't know what happened to him.

    All I am saying is, getting on the road of drugs may not end up being temporary as there seems to be a domino effect. Mine was a sort of domino effect.... that's how I know. THe promise of each med to "solve the problem" only led to more problems later on, relying and hoping on the next med to be the final one. Sometimes, there is no final one.

    It's a merry-go-round which will not stop spinning; only way off is to jump off...you may get bruises and scrapes, but they will heal and you don't have to spin endlessly anymore.

    If you want to try an AD, that's ok because I understand the need for hope. I certainly can't blame anyone for trying to find relief in a pill; I did the same thing myself, trusting the doctors and hoping they were right. So I willingly took pill after pill; filled new prescription after new one. I finally realized one day, it just wasn't working for me.

    As far as blood pressure, well, you will just have to monitor it close and obtain doctors' advice on that one. You can maybe help it a bit with the tea and some milk; maybe some relaxation tapes or exercises. Mild exercise will strengthen the heart, regulate it better and hold the pressure.

    I did read something interesting on the internet about magnesium's effect on blood pressure; seems to help lower it. I can't confirm it personally for sure; doubt it's harmful to try the supplement and see if it helps. Worth a shot? If you try it, let me know if there is any change.

    At any rate, if it continues to be too high, you may have to resort to those beta blockers. I do believe in treating life-threating health conditions, whether it's benzo caused or not isn't really the issue....you don't want to end up with stroke or heart attack...so keep a close check on it and consult with your doctor, ok?

    Glad you at least are feeling a bit better tonight...perhaps positive changes are on the horizon....

     
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