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    Old 05-27-2004, 02:59 AM   #61
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    Jennita and Mise,

    I am grateful for and glad you are interested. Let me fill in some gaps so you can understand better and perhaps offer more suggestions. I already know what they would tell me on the big benzo board, "the only way out is through," "do not take any other meds or herbs, vitamins, etc," "there is no magic wand."

    1. I am at 12.5 mgs V, down from 25 mgs 4 months ago. I have not cut in 26 days, have never really felt stable here. Word is that if you wait longer than 4 weeks to cut you`ll get more symptoms. I have 2 mg tabs, feel I need to cut at least .5 mgs asap.

    2. I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, sometime a little more, of course docs suggest not quitting during withdrawal. I do drink soda with sugar in it, but not vast amounts.

    3. BP flirts with dangerous levels, 160/100 range. My BP is only what is considered "normal," 120/80 range, after I have taken my larger nightly Valium dose. It really gets better if I take a couple of Benadryl for sleep right after. That is at home. I have no idea how high the BP goes during stressful times on my feet. I have felt dizzy. Heart rates in the range of 100 to 120 have not been uncommon. I am not having states that I would consider "panic."

    4. Every time I see my doc he wants to put me on an AD. He says they have helped other patients he has tapered off of benzos. I did fill a script for trazadone. Took only one, bad dry mouth, no sedation to speak of. I have beta blockers, metaphoral. Do not like the side effects, shortness of breathe (common and listed), tight chest, and general wierd feeling. Have taken two. I have slow release that could be taken daily, or instant release that can be taken as needed. They do lower pulse rate and BP, will hand them that.

    The tea you speak of, Chamoline, must you go to a heath food store to get it?

    Kayleigh, thank you for caring, and I am praying for you.
    praying for you to howard kelleigh

     
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    Old 05-27-2004, 04:06 AM   #62
    mise ata ann
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Hello again

    (Hoots lassies, and top o' the mornin' to ye Howard)
    Jennita - well - a bit of a mongrel here - an Irish/Scottish mongrel here - and a rotweiller to boot! LOLOL) Just DON'T call me English!! You have been warned! LOL
    Where do you three hail from?

    Well Howard - there is no getting anything past you - hadn't realised you had remembered earlier statements of mine about another place. Yep - you have it spot on. I cannot accept the stupid attitude to medics in general and to mental illness either. If you have been in that room you will know for yourself that there appear to be some very mentally ill people? Guessing, of course. But every blight on the landscape cannot be blamed on benzos. On the other hand - I think that some of the arguments relating to the spiritual dimension of man is true - I think as society becomes more and more secular, then we loose something - something of our real humanity - in a spiritual dimension. But - I agree too, that the appalling attitude not to allow debate at all that goes against "mein fuhrer's" views is totally counterproductive - leaving the feeling of real "cult" status? And there is nothing you can do to combat a mod with a delete and ban button! LOLOL
    Poor Prof Ashton - I often wonder if she knows how that "net ideology spawned" from her work is as it is? She is still very active here - lobbying always - writing and receiving replies from our Health Minister .................very positive and chipping away all the time. And it is working. Benzos is a real hot topic here now. You wont find it easy to find a young doctor to prescribe any of them here now - the older generation of course seem to stick to old practices. I doubt she ever looks at that place. Her original acolyte I think is not the person he once was.
    Enough of that.......

    You obviously have all the thought processes functioning rationally and I cannot criticise anything you say about your own condition. You have great self knowledge and will figure your own way through this - quite obviously.

    Have to say though that I agree with Jennita and this whole thing about taking drugs to help against other drugs......what she calls the domino effect.........I find it - personally - dead dodgy! To me it defies logic but Jennita is dead right about giving people hope - but is it real hope or just another attempt by the doctor at a quick term solution (deal with the long term results later - once we are out of this particular mess?) I know I have discussed this with doctors who shout me down - but they have never been on a benzo taper. But for the most part British doctors do regard their American counterparts as pill pushers. I dont mean in any way to be offensive - just observant. You have a very very pill oriented society - with a pill as a quick fix for everything - even now to include obesity?? LOL But I am no medic and so I will not say other than that I personally would refuse to go down that road. (I would not of course include anyone with clinical depression in this statement). Also I would question the addictive propensities(and other side effects) of anti-deps. Here - Seroxat is now banned for under 18s. Apparently it may induce feelings which drive people to suicide. But why 18? There has been further restriction now too on its being prescribed to those over 18. I rather get the feeling that Govt wish it had never arrived on our shores. Prozac too gets a very bad press. But - I know that there must me other a/ds which are effective and not dangerous. But I am loathe to just accept what a doctor tells me now about newer drugs (I am the daughter of a doctor, and the mother of a young doctor - who incidentally had never heard of xanax - it is not prescribed here in UK as far as I know - certainly not by general practitioners - perhaps shrinks - I just dont know) - especially relatively new drugs. I very much doubt that enough research has really been done on these - and in truth we are probably the guinea pigs for the latest batch. Call me cynical?
    Also too - you yourself talk of organ damage re high BP. There has to be certain amount of "stress" if not damage to organs like the liver/kidneys and gut when taking any drug - so why add more?

    Yes - your BP position clearly worries you and you will have to find an answer to that. You misunderstand when I talked of beta blockers - I certainly did not mean that there was anything wrong with them - they seem to be most effective - but there are unpleasant side effects which some people seem not to be able to tolerate. I know of a recovering alcoholic (78 yrs of age and about 35 years of sobriety) being put on them and feeling "euphoric" and immediately quit - he reckoned it was too dangerous for him................... might eventually lead him back to the dreaded alcohol. You, yourself, had mentioned that they had a couple of side effects which you didnt like................. But - Howard - this is your life, your health and your decision and for sure no-one wants to see you exiting in a coffin at this point in your life! You will have to work it out with your doctor - but work it out you must or you will doubt the end result of coming off valium? A guess again. But there is no doubt that you are close to being free of benzos - so guard that carefully and do whatever you have to do to hang on to that. There is always a solution.

    Another wee anecdotal story - there was a member of another place (who left!) who was perhaps in much the same position as yourself. He is in his 40s, at the height of his career, just accepting too another promotion............ when we parted company he was on your sort of dose - I think it was actually 15 mg that he had managed to get down to from a starting point of 30. Everytime he made a cut he could predict how he would feel and when the withdrawals would kick in - so he worked out the day of the week - every fortnight to make his cut so that the worse coincided with a w/e and a Monday. When asked how he was feeling he would always tell me that he was OK - he knew that he would have a 'bad case of flu' for the next few months and having accepted that he could carry on. (Now - I am dead certain he was just being a "man", I think he was indeed suffering much more than he admitted - but he had rationalised the whole thing............... well - as far as I could tell!) But the point of this ramble is to tell you that he dropped me an email a few months back when he finally broke free - almost bang on his own target.
    You'll do this too, Howard. No doubts about it. You clearly are not the kind of personality who would wish to remain "controlled" by benzos. And again......... I know I sound boring.............. you have the worst over - the prize is in sight for you.
    What Jennita offers as advice on smoking, sugar, exercise etc I concur with too. All factors too in your well-being - especially if you are facing up to some hard work (in the occupation sense) in the next few months.
    BTW - almost fogot to ask - when did this problem of high BP arise? During taper? Or has it been an issue for a while?
    I note how you describe your symptoms - and it reads as though it could have been taken out of Ashton's Manual. Does that reassure you in any way?

    So - you have to work, you cannot drop out, you have to continue on your taper, you cannot give up..................... focus on these - work out a reasonable approach to the BP problem......
    Wishing you all the best.
    Any of this make any sense?
    Speak again
    Mise

    PS - Hi Kelleigh - hope you are well? Please just jump in and add to the discussions if you feel like it?

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 04:25 AM   #63
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mise ata ann
    Hello again

    (Hoots lassies, and top o' the mornin' to ye Howard)
    Jennita - well - a bit of a mongrel here - an Irish/Scottish mongrel here - and a rotweiller to boot! LOLOL) Just DON'T call me English!! You have been warned! LOL
    Where do you three hail from?

    Well Howard - there is no getting anything past you - hadn't realised you had remembered earlier statements of mine about another place. Yep - you have it spot on. I cannot accept the stupid attitude to medics in general and to mental illness either. If you have been in that room you will know for yourself that there appear to be some very mentally ill people? Guessing, of course. But every blight on the landscape cannot be blamed on benzos. On the other hand - I think that some of the arguments relating to the spiritual dimension of man is true - I think as society becomes more and more secular, then we loose something - something of our real humanity - in a spiritual dimension. But - I agree too, that the appalling attitude not to allow debate at all that goes against "mein fuhrer's" views is totally counterproductive - leaving the feeling of real "cult" status? And there is nothing you can do to combat a mod with a delete and ban button! LOLOL
    Poor Prof Ashton - I often wonder if she knows how that "net ideology spawned" from her work is as it is? She is still very active here - lobbying always - writing and receiving replies from our Health Minister .................very positive and chipping away all the time. And it is working. Benzos is a real hot topic here now. You wont find it easy to find a young doctor to prescribe any of them here now - the older generation of course seem to stick to old practices. I doubt she ever looks at that place. Her original acolyte I think is not the person he once was.
    Enough of that.......

    You obviously have all the thought processes functioning rationally and I cannot criticise anything you say about your own condition. You have great self knowledge and will figure your own way through this - quite obviously.

    Have to say though that I agree with Jennita and this whole thing about taking drugs to help against other drugs......what she calls the domino effect.........I find it - personally - dead dodgy! To me it defies logic but Jennita is dead right about giving people hope - but is it real hope or just another attempt by the doctor at a quick term solution (deal with the long term results later - once we are out of this particular mess?) I know I have discussed this with doctors who shout me down - but they have never been on a benzo taper. But for the most part British doctors do regard their American counterparts as pill pushers. I dont mean in any way to be offensive - just observant. You have a very very pill oriented society - with a pill as a quick fix for everything - even now to include obesity?? LOL But I am no medic and so I will not say other than that I personally would refuse to go down that road. (I would not of course include anyone with clinical depression in this statement). Also I would question the addictive propensities(and other side effects) of anti-deps. Here - Seroxat is now banned for under 18s. Apparently it may induce feelings which drive people to suicide. But why 18? There has been further restriction now too on its being prescribed to those over 18. I rather get the feeling that Govt wish it had never arrived on our shores. Prozac too gets a very bad press. But - I know that there must me other a/ds which are effective and not dangerous. But I am loathe to just accept what a doctor tells me now about newer drugs (I am the daughter of a doctor, and the mother of a young doctor - who incidentally had never heard of xanax - it is not prescribed here in UK as far as I know - certainly not by general practitioners - perhaps shrinks - I just dont know) - especially relatively new drugs. I very much doubt that enough research has really been done on these - and in truth we are probably the guinea pigs for the latest batch. Call me cynical?
    Also too - you yourself talk of organ damage re high BP. There has to be certain amount of "stress" if not damage to organs like the liver/kidneys and gut when taking any drug - so why add more?

    Yes - your BP position clearly worries you and you will have to find an answer to that. You misunderstand when I talked of beta blockers - I certainly did not mean that there was anything wrong with them - they seem to be most effective - but there are unpleasant side effects which some people seem not to be able to tolerate. I know of a recovering alcoholic (78 yrs of age and about 35 years of sobriety) being put on them and feeling "euphoric" and immediately quit - he reckoned it was too dangerous for him................... might eventually lead him back to the dreaded alcohol. You, yourself, had mentioned that they had a couple of side effects which you didnt like................. But - Howard - this is your life, your health and your decision and for sure no-one wants to see you exiting in a coffin at this point in your life! You will have to work it out with your doctor - but work it out you must or you will doubt the end result of coming off valium? A guess again. But there is no doubt that you are close to being free of benzos - so guard that carefully and do whatever you have to do to hang on to that. There is always a solution.

    Another wee anecdotal story - there was a member of another place (who left!) who was perhaps in much the same position as yourself. He is in his 40s, at the height of his career, just accepting too another promotion............ when we parted company he was on your sort of dose - I think it was actually 15 mg that he had managed to get down to from a starting point of 30. Everytime he made a cut he could predict how he would feel and when the withdrawals would kick in - so he worked out the day of the week - every fortnight to make his cut so that the worse coincided with a w/e and a Monday. When asked how he was feeling he would always tell me that he was OK - he knew that he would have a 'bad case of flu' for the next few months and having accepted that he could carry on. (Now - I am dead certain he was just being a "man", I think he was indeed suffering much more than he admitted - but he had rationalised the whole thing............... well - as far as I could tell!) But the point of this ramble is to tell you that he dropped me an email a few months back when he finally broke free - almost bang on his own target.
    You'll do this too, Howard. No doubts about it. You clearly are not the kind of personality who would wish to remain "controlled" by benzos. And again......... I know I sound boring.............. you have the worst over - the prize is in sight for you.
    What Jennita offers as advice on smoking, sugar, exercise etc I concur with too. All factors too in your well-being - especially if you are facing up to some hard work (in the occupation sense) in the next few months.
    BTW - almost fogot to ask - when did this problem of high BP arise? During taper? Or has it been an issue for a while?
    I note how you describe your symptoms - and it reads as though it could have been taken out of Ashton's Manual. Does that reassure you in any way?

    So - you have to work, you cannot drop out, you have to continue on your taper, you cannot give up..................... focus on these - work out a reasonable approach to the BP problem......
    Wishing you all the best.
    Any of this make any sense?
    Speak again
    Mise

    PS - Hi Kelleigh - hope you are well? Please just jump in and add to the discussions if you feel like it?
    hi mise i enjoy reading all your posts i 'm not that familiar in the benzo area but you 3 have certainly enlightened me i just feel so bad for howard he has helped me considerably and i feel like there is nothing i can do for him you and jennita are definitly the ones to convince him not to give up i'll never forget his first post to me methadone to klonopin thats like jumping from the frying pan into the fire and that's how i became aware of just how bad these drugs were i wish i could say iwasnt on ssris or klonopin i definitly took the wrong route but i'm aiming for a med free life one day you all are so knowledgable in this area thats why i don't really say much other then just trying to give howard support it's so hard when you can only type and not be there to try and help the person through it but you and jennita are doing a wonderful job i wish i was more aware of the effects of benzos before i started taking them i had no idea they were so evil until i read all 3 of your posts thanks for all the information you all have opened my eyes just through your conversations thanks mise your a good person and make so much sense

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 06:51 AM   #64
    mise ata ann
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Hi Kelleigh,
    While I probably would agree with Howard about going from methadone to benzos is like jumping from the frying pan into the fire (I dont know your history).............. don't look on your position in a negative way? I really don't think there are "right" ways and "wrong" ways thro this jungle - loads of different routes. So for the moment - no matter what your medication - you are travelling a route with lots of junctions and choices in the future? I do so hope we havent terrified you with all our discussions. Would never seek to do that. But for some of us it really has been so difficult to withdraw - lengthy and painful taper - but it has finally been so rewarding. If, as, and when, you ever decide to come off your medications you will have so much more anecdotal info now? I really think that knowledge empowers you. So - no worries? In your own way and in your own time - you will get thro whatever is needed.
    And I bet that you do indeed give Howard plenty of support by just being there, listening and supporting. Its all any of us can do for anyone else in here?
    Take care
    Mise

    Last edited by mise ata ann; 05-27-2004 at 06:52 AM. Reason: spelling

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 09:44 AM   #65
    Jennita
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mise ata ann
    Hello again

    (Hoots lassies, and top o' the mornin' to ye Howard)
    Jennita - well - a bit of a mongrel here - an Irish/Scottish mongrel here - and a rotweiller to boot! LOLOL) Just DON'T call me English!! You have been warned! LOL
    Where do you three hail from?

    Well Howard - there is no getting anything past you - hadn't realised you had remembered earlier statements of mine about another place. Yep - you have it spot on. I cannot accept the stupid attitude to medics in general and to mental illness either. If you have been in that room you will know for yourself that there appear to be some very mentally ill people? Guessing, of course. But every blight on the landscape cannot be blamed on benzos. On the other hand - I think that some of the arguments relating to the spiritual dimension of man is true - I think as society becomes more and more secular, then we loose something - something of our real humanity - in a spiritual dimension. But - I agree too, that the appalling attitude not to allow debate at all that goes against "mein fuhrer's" views is totally counterproductive - leaving the feeling of real "cult" status? And there is nothing you can do to combat a mod with a delete and ban button! LOLOL
    Poor Prof Ashton - I often wonder if she knows how that "net ideology spawned" from her work is as it is? She is still very active here - lobbying always - writing and receiving replies from our Health Minister .................very positive and chipping away all the time. And it is working. Benzos is a real hot topic here now. You wont find it easy to find a young doctor to prescribe any of them here now - the older generation of course seem to stick to old practices. I doubt she ever looks at that place. Her original acolyte I think is not the person he once was.
    Enough of that.......

    You obviously have all the thought processes functioning rationally and I cannot criticise anything you say about your own condition. You have great self knowledge and will figure your own way through this - quite obviously.

    Have to say though that I agree with Jennita and this whole thing about taking drugs to help against other drugs......what she calls the domino effect.........I find it - personally - dead dodgy! To me it defies logic but Jennita is dead right about giving people hope - but is it real hope or just another attempt by the doctor at a quick term solution (deal with the long term results later - once we are out of this particular mess?) I know I have discussed this with doctors who shout me down - but they have never been on a benzo taper. But for the most part British doctors do regard their American counterparts as pill pushers. I dont mean in any way to be offensive - just observant. You have a very very pill oriented society - with a pill as a quick fix for everything - even now to include obesity?? LOL But I am no medic and so I will not say other than that I personally would refuse to go down that road. (I would not of course include anyone with clinical depression in this statement). Also I would question the addictive propensities(and other side effects) of anti-deps. Here - Seroxat is now banned for under 18s. Apparently it may induce feelings which drive people to suicide. But why 18? There has been further restriction now too on its being prescribed to those over 18. I rather get the feeling that Govt wish it had never arrived on our shores. Prozac too gets a very bad press. But - I know that there must me other a/ds which are effective and not dangerous. But I am loathe to just accept what a doctor tells me now about newer drugs (I am the daughter of a doctor, and the mother of a young doctor - who incidentally had never heard of xanax - it is not prescribed here in UK as far as I know - certainly not by general practitioners - perhaps shrinks - I just dont know) - especially relatively new drugs. I very much doubt that enough research has really been done on these - and in truth we are probably the guinea pigs for the latest batch. Call me cynical?
    Also too - you yourself talk of organ damage re high BP. There has to be certain amount of "stress" if not damage to organs like the liver/kidneys and gut when taking any drug - so why add more?

    Yes - your BP position clearly worries you and you will have to find an answer to that. You misunderstand when I talked of beta blockers - I certainly did not mean that there was anything wrong with them - they seem to be most effective - but there are unpleasant side effects which some people seem not to be able to tolerate. I know of a recovering alcoholic (78 yrs of age and about 35 years of sobriety) being put on them and feeling "euphoric" and immediately quit - he reckoned it was too dangerous for him................... might eventually lead him back to the dreaded alcohol. You, yourself, had mentioned that they had a couple of side effects which you didnt like................. But - Howard - this is your life, your health and your decision and for sure no-one wants to see you exiting in a coffin at this point in your life! You will have to work it out with your doctor - but work it out you must or you will doubt the end result of coming off valium? A guess again. But there is no doubt that you are close to being free of benzos - so guard that carefully and do whatever you have to do to hang on to that. There is always a solution.

    Another wee anecdotal story - there was a member of another place (who left!) who was perhaps in much the same position as yourself. He is in his 40s, at the height of his career, just accepting too another promotion............ when we parted company he was on your sort of dose - I think it was actually 15 mg that he had managed to get down to from a starting point of 30. Everytime he made a cut he could predict how he would feel and when the withdrawals would kick in - so he worked out the day of the week - every fortnight to make his cut so that the worse coincided with a w/e and a Monday. When asked how he was feeling he would always tell me that he was OK - he knew that he would have a 'bad case of flu' for the next few months and having accepted that he could carry on. (Now - I am dead certain he was just being a "man", I think he was indeed suffering much more than he admitted - but he had rationalised the whole thing............... well - as far as I could tell!) But the point of this ramble is to tell you that he dropped me an email a few months back when he finally broke free - almost bang on his own target.
    You'll do this too, Howard. No doubts about it. You clearly are not the kind of personality who would wish to remain "controlled" by benzos. And again......... I know I sound boring.............. you have the worst over - the prize is in sight for you.
    What Jennita offers as advice on smoking, sugar, exercise etc I concur with too. All factors too in your well-being - especially if you are facing up to some hard work (in the occupation sense) in the next few months.
    BTW - almost fogot to ask - when did this problem of high BP arise? During taper? Or has it been an issue for a while?
    I note how you describe your symptoms - and it reads as though it could have been taken out of Ashton's Manual. Does that reassure you in any way?

    So - you have to work, you cannot drop out, you have to continue on your taper, you cannot give up..................... focus on these - work out a reasonable approach to the BP problem......
    Wishing you all the best.
    Any of this make any sense?
    Speak again
    Mise

    PS - Hi Kelleigh - hope you are well? Please just jump in and add to the discussions if you feel like it?
    Mise, well, I stilll like the English, but hey, my daughter and I are also big fans of the Irish; Colin Farrell is a fav in our house and we can't help ourselves that we love such parodies as "Top o' the Mornin'" they do on Saturday Night live. My daughter likes the music too, a friend of hers has a dad who's in an Irish band she enjoyed.

    And of course, we love those accents too!! I admit, though, I do have a very hard time telling the difference in the Scotts and Irish accents. At least in your case, you're both so we can't go wrong.

    My mom has both Irish and English in her ancestory. My dad is 100% pure Italian. What a combo, eh? When I get mad, we don't know if it's the Irish or Italian temperment to blame I think Italians prefer to speak of it as "passion" not anger...hmmmm...that does sound better!

    I'm fairly easy going, however, after my dad, not typically an angry person unless there is good reason. My dad ran after someone with a gun once when the guy robbed his friends' new bar....yikes. If you knew my dad, you'd be shocked at that story. Well, there was good reason for anger that day, or shall we say, my dad was "passionate" about catching the man who did some wrong-doing to his friend. The robber got away, good thing because he also had a gun!!!(for the robbery) and could have shot my dad. In those days, not many police around to arrive quickly at the scene.

    My mom was raised in Tennessee, all I have to say is, don't let someone who hails from there get angry with you....wow. Are you familiar with the story of the Hatfields and the McCoys....the lengendary families in Tennesee who had on-going feuding for years and years??

    Well, needless to say, my dad has had alot of patience with my mom....but she's great to have in your corner when a fight comes about!!

    I was born in Chicago, Illinois like my dad, but my parents moved to California when I was two so this is where I consider myself from.

    Well, enough about all that. I am delighted to hear Prof. Ashton is still so active at her age on the benzo issues there in the UK. What dedication!

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 10:10 AM   #66
    Jennita
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Mise, I also liked your take on what society defines mental illness as these days. Frankly, my definition would be someone who has lost grips with reality or hallucienates, or engages in dangerous behaviors such as bi-polar people do. Normal people, with normal problems, don't apply; however, these days almost everything that is a normal occurance is on that list of "mental disorders", a sneaky way they put mental illness labels on people without them knowing. PMS, a normal, hormonal problem for the majority of women, was tranformed into PMDD...same symptoms, only "worse" than PMS, so they could renew that expired Prozac patent with the Sarafem label.

    PMS is, well, just PMS, but PMDD is listed as a mental disorder. So now look how many women will be considered (and labeled) mentally ill who just have some wild hormones once a month. What a dirty trick, huh? Your'e a mental patient and you didn't even know it.

    Look at ADD. My nephew was diagnoised with it; my mother-in-law was shocked to find out her grandson was labeled with a mental illness when I told her! She thought it was simply a learning disability. That story has a happy ending because I gave them all the info on the stimulant medications; they could see the negative personality changes in him, so they tried Strattera, the non-stimulant med. It caused some side effects and finally my brother-in-law had enough with the experimentation. So now, my nephew is on no meds. Guess what? New teacher this year, and he is doing well in school. Go figure!

    Some things are not mental illness in my opinion, but are labeled as such. If you are a clean, neat person, surely you must be obsessive-compulsive. Bite your nails sometimes? Surely you are into self-injury. Life circumstances getting you down? Surely you must be clinically depressed. Also, if you grieve for the loss of a loved one, you must also be clinically depressed....imagine....having feelings of grief over death.....impossible! And what do you mean, your child has a tough time in school...ADD, ADHD or hey, if they are also tempremental, throw in manic-depression while your'e at it!!

    God forbid we all aren't some mold of robot with no imperfections or feelings.

    It makes me sick. I understand there is real mental illness out there. I don't discount or reject that at all. But the lines between that and plain old bad problem or habit are getting blurry as the money-making power of prescription psych meds are distorting the vision of those who stand to profit.

    End of rant

    Last edited by Jennita; 05-27-2004 at 10:14 AM.

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 10:22 AM   #67
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by no patience
    hi mise i enjoy reading all your posts i 'm not that familiar in the benzo area but you 3 have certainly enlightened me i just feel so bad for howard he has helped me considerably and i feel like there is nothing i can do for him you and jennita are definitly the ones to convince him not to give up i'll never forget his first post to me methadone to klonopin thats like jumping from the frying pan into the fire and that's how i became aware of just how bad these drugs were i wish i could say iwasnt on ssris or klonopin i definitly took the wrong route but i'm aiming for a med free life one day you all are so knowledgable in this area thats why i don't really say much other then just trying to give howard support it's so hard when you can only type and not be there to try and help the person through it but you and jennita are doing a wonderful job i wish i was more aware of the effects of benzos before i started taking them i had no idea they were so evil until i read all 3 of your posts thanks for all the information you all have opened my eyes just through your conversations thanks mise your a good person and make so much sense
    I agree with Mise, Kelleigh, you shouldn't feel bad about where you are now, but where you intend to go in the future with this. You didn't know what you were getting into, neither did I. But you have the right ideas for your future and are more informed when the time comes. Some people don't have that advantage and are looking forward to a life of pills and more pills, without question and the uncertainty of that life.

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 12:58 PM   #68
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Mise and Jennita,

    I could not begin to ask for more quality support in cyberspace than I am getting here. You both are sensible and have won the battle. I am so appreciative.

    Mise, why do you think that the worst is over for me? I thought with many it was worse going down the stretch and I have still the final parting to face.

    What a strange trip this is. Here I sit with beautiful vitals signs feeling about fully normal. But I have had no stressors today. Have, I am afraid, already smoked too many cigarettes, and the only drink I had in the house had sugar in it. I am going to work on these things however. Cut last night to 12 mgs. Thank God for 2 mg tabs. Am I cured? I doubt it. Just does not seem to be the nature of the beast with this dilema.

    The beta blockers, well, they are here for emergencies. Another choice is alpha blockers, commonly used in detox centers to lower BP and heart rate, but the complaint with them is dry mouth and sluggishness. Shortness of breathe and tight chest versus dry mouth and sluggishness, take your pick...
    I am going to look for the tea today.

    Kayleigh,

    Here you really see what it is like, not just warnings but actual interactions from the trenches. I do not minimize your methadone issues, and sure that is a nightmare of its own.

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 02:49 PM   #69
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jennita
    Mise, I also liked your take on what society defines mental illness as these days. Frankly, my definition would be someone who has lost grips with reality or hallucienates, or engages in dangerous behaviors such as bi-polar people do. Normal people, with normal problems, don't apply; however, these days almost everything that is a normal occurance is on that list of "mental disorders", a sneaky way they put mental illness labels on people without them knowing. PMS, a normal, hormonal problem for the majority of women, was tranformed into PMDD...same symptoms, only "worse" than PMS, so they could renew that expired Prozac patent with the Sarafem label.

    PMS is, well, just PMS, but PMDD is listed as a mental disorder. So now look how many women will be considered (and labeled) mentally ill who just have some wild hormones once a month. What a dirty trick, huh? Your'e a mental patient and you didn't even know it.

    Look at ADD. My nephew was diagnoised with it; my mother-in-law was shocked to find out her grandson was labeled with a mental illness when I told her! She thought it was simply a learning disability. That story has a happy ending because I gave them all the info on the stimulant medications; they could see the negative personality changes in him, so they tried Strattera, the non-stimulant med. It caused some side effects and finally my brother-in-law had enough with the experimentation. So now, my nephew is on no meds. Guess what? New teacher this year, and he is doing well in school. Go figure!

    Some things are not mental illness in my opinion, but are labeled as such. If you are a clean, neat person, surely you must be obsessive-compulsive. Bite your nails sometimes? Surely you are into self-injury. Life circumstances getting you down? Surely you must be clinically depressed. Also, if you grieve for the loss of a loved one, you must also be clinically depressed....imagine....having feelings of grief over death.....impossible! And what do you mean, your child has a tough time in school...ADD, ADHD or hey, if they are also tempremental, throw in manic-depression while your'e at it!!

    God forbid we all aren't some mold of robot with no imperfections or feelings.

    It makes me sick. I understand there is real mental illness out there. I don't discount or reject that at all. But the lines between that and plain old bad problem or habit are getting blurry as the money-making power of prescription psych meds are distorting the vision of those who stand to profit.

    End of rant
    Couldn't have put it better myself! Well said, sister - but stand well back ............... you might just have created a "debating point" LOLOL

    Last edited by mise ata ann; 05-27-2004 at 02:50 PM.

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 03:21 PM   #70
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Hello Howard

    Great to hear you sounding cheerier!

    Surely the worst is really over for you now? In the whole dreadful affair? You recognised your problem, got informed, took action and got under way on your taper...... You have come down from 25 mg to 12.5 mg in the safest and best way possible and must have the best prognosis from here on in? Don't you think that you can take a pat on the back and agree that you have done a HUGE amount? Now - you just have to finish the job. "Any boy can start a job, but it takes a man to finnish one!" LOLOL!
    As for the final parting.........? What's that? Don't even entertain the idea. You are doing great - just continue - take it on a daily basis - sleep - get up the next day and do the same again....... you know the drill! I suspect that the end of taper for the majority of "reasonably" normal people is really unexceptional. You will just go lower and lower and one day when you are at 1 mg or .5 mg - whichever you are most comfortable with you will just stop. End of story! You will then throw away any extra valium - a wonderful ceremony - you may decide the details of the particular experience!!!! But you will enjoy. Never look back - don't be negative - one foot in front of the other....... (cant think of any more cliches for the moment - hope you will forgive me these corny ones - but they do so fit the situation!!! LOL)
    If you experience any more "rocks" on the road - you know what to do - ease up - take a bit longer - make a smaller cut - but don't ever lose hope because you are so close now. "Eyes on the prize"!
    I have asked some other benzo recoverer friends who have been off rather longer than myself and who had probs with BP for their comments. I will copy them to you if you are interested altho I think you seem to have that all covered now?
    Hope this cut is kind to you! Hopefully a .5 mg cut will be okay? Keep telling us how it is proceeding - there is still lots of really anecdotal help and advice for any problems you might still hit along the road. Comprehensive cover you have here!! LOL Take heart - you are doing almost a perfect classical Ashton! (PCA? LOL)

    Jennita - I just cannot tell you how heartened I am by your post above. How on earth did generations before us cope with hormones, headaches, untidiness, lonliness, depression, boredom ........ without recourse to pills! The whole human race should really be extinct? LOL But the US of A really does lead the world in its consumptive abilities............ from natural resources like petroleum and gas ............to food and to pills........................ Personally I find it utterly appalling and downright unacceptable in a civilised society. What on earth has happened to people? Life just happens. (I exclude all those who are truly ill or depressed of course. And I include in "ill" - addiction)
    It's so refreshing to see someone stating it in forums like this. And its a perfectly valid stance to take. But not a popular one I suspect!

    Keyleigh - you have lots of insight now - you have lots of info - just keep steady - you will know when the time is right to make any decisions.................I know nothing of methadone - but Howard clearly will keep you right!

    Thanks to you all for uplifting posts! You have helped me so much this evening................ upbeat and positive even in the midst of anguish!

    ttfn
    Mise

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 04:56 PM   #71
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    > Jennita

    I take no issue with this. It is gotten way out of hand, a label for about anything. And the profit motive sounds reasonable as the newer ADs and anti-psychotic meds are very expensive, no generics available.

    Last edited by howard678; 05-28-2004 at 12:53 AM.

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 05:11 PM   #72
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    > Mise

    You struck the right nerve in this proud southern U.S. male. "Be a man about it!" LOL I got some of that tea. Not sure what all it does. But I am going to lie down a while.

    Yes, I would definitely be interested in what you friends said about adressing bouts of high BP and rapid heart rate. When this is prolonged over an hour it scares even the most macho males among us, particularly us at the prime age for heart attack. A summary would be fine if you can find the time, that is if you do not want to cut and paste a lot of info. You and Jennita are the best. Kayleigh, stay on the thread. Your days of healing are coming.

    Last edited by howard678; 05-27-2004 at 05:12 PM.

     
    Old 05-27-2004, 10:39 PM   #73
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    > Mise

    I wish to respond here, not necessarily with defense, but perspective. Produce & consume, Americans, that is what we generally are about. Roots: John Calvin, Protestant work ethic, hard work seen as the greatest of virtues, and prosperity, a sign that one is "chosen by God." Much of the religiosity has been abandoned, but the work ethic remains. Also, your man, Adam Smith, "The Wealth of Nations," capitalism, "the beast." No human efforts are going to stop it either. The alternative, socialism, has proved futile where now we have in Britain "New Labour." What this in essence means is, "We aren`t socialists anymore."

    Our work ethic has given the world electricity, the telephone, television, computers, and questionable technologies such as high tech weaponry. But without such weaponry, which the British have put a lot of effort into as well, we would not have been able to stop the madman that was determined to blow your nation to bits...

    We are a driven society here. You stay in the race or you get trampled under, and when it comes down to it no one is going to care for long if you do. Push, push, push. Then in an attempt to unwind, excess. Stress in a technologically driven society, a lot of wound up, burnt out people. The body was not designed for this. Thus the attraction of psyche meds. Tranquilize the mind. And with a demand comes a supply to meet it. The agrarian world of centuries past was different. Physically demanding, which actually is healthy, mentally, much less so in most circumstances so not all comparsions to the past may be valid. Civilized? Depends on definitions. If we define this in terms of an absence of hate, selfishness, and "the will to power," the world has never been so... Well, at least you know my mind is working tonight ladies. lol

    Last edited by howard678; 05-27-2004 at 11:31 PM.

     
    Old 05-28-2004, 04:24 AM   #74
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    howard,mise,and jennita all i can say is thank you and howard your posts are getting longer again hope your feeling better kelleigh

    Last edited by no patience; 05-28-2004 at 04:26 AM.

     
    Old 05-28-2004, 07:09 AM   #75
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    Re: Murphy and anyone interested abut benzos

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    > Mise

    I wish to respond here, not necessarily with defense, but perspective. Produce & consume, Americans, that is what we generally are about. Roots: John Calvin, Protestant work ethic, hard work seen as the greatest of virtues, and prosperity, a sign that one is "chosen by God." Much of the religiosity has been abandoned, but the work ethic remains. Also, your man, Adam Smith, "The Wealth of Nations," capitalism, "the beast." No human efforts are going to stop it either. The alternative, socialism, has proved futile where now we have in Britain "New Labour." What this in essence means is, "We aren`t socialists anymore."

    Our work ethic has given the world electricity, the telephone, television, computers, and questionable technologies such as high tech weaponry. But without such weaponry, which the British have put a lot of effort into as well, we would not have been able to stop the madman that was determined to blow your nation to bits...

    We are a driven society here. You stay in the race or you get trampled under, and when it comes down to it no one is going to care for long if you do. Push, push, push. Then in an attempt to unwind, excess. Stress in a technologically driven society, a lot of wound up, burnt out people. The body was not designed for this. Thus the attraction of psyche meds. Tranquilize the mind. And with a demand comes a supply to meet it. The agrarian world of centuries past was different. Physically demanding, which actually is healthy, mentally, much less so in most circumstances so not all comparsions to the past may be valid. Civilized? Depends on definitions. If we define this in terms of an absence of hate, selfishness, and "the will to power," the world has never been so... Well, at least you know my mind is working tonight ladies. lol
    Ho ho ho Howard........ your brain is ticking over tonight indeed. But better check your facts perhaps?

    Scottish Inventor

    John Logie Baird pioneered early television with the mechanical scanning system he developed from 1923 to the late 1930s. He is remembered today as an inventor (178 patents) with considerable insight, who was in many ways ahead of his time. Among his pioneering ideas were early versions of color television, the video disc, large screen television, stereo television, televised sports, and pay television by closed circuit. But he is also a tragic figure who often worked alone for lack of financial backing and lived to see his technical ideas superseded. He was forgotten by the time he died at the age of 58


    Thought you might enjoy that! And a few more Scottish Inventors from school history - the brain is grinding away here!
    James Watt - steam engine
    John Logie Baird - television
    Alexander Graham Bell - telephone
    James Dewar - vacuum flask
    John Boyd Dunlop - rubber
    Alexander Fleming - penicillin
    Kirkpatrick McMillan - Bicycle
    Robert William Thomson - pneumatic tyre
    Robert Alexander Watson - radar
    Whew............. give me time and I can think of many many more including leading scientists etc.........

    Oh - and those darned English - they invented the first computer!!

    Dont think we will engage in politics here!! We wont agree! Your Calvin work ethic of course I accept but the notion that "God smiles on those who make money" is total nonsense to me. What of those poor souls who cannot.
    Also - I think perhaps too you mistake the position of our Mr Blair and New Labour. No - tis not that socialism is dead - in fact throughout Europe in general it works extremely well (look at France). Blair is about power - sheer and unadulterated - he manoeuvred himself to power on the back of a great socialist PM, John Smith - a man of great Calvin work ethic and a die hard socialist - a man of huge integrity and universal respect. Blair is no more capitalist than socialist - he is merely out for power in Europe and using New Labour as a stepping stone. He is as big a "con" man as Bush. Just watch him leave office shortly - the people of UK wont put up with him having his head so far up Dubya's rear that he cant see daylight anymore! But he will move onto greater things - I'll wager - I think he aims to be first President of a United Europe. I also suspect that the term New Labour may well dissapear too. Just dont know about that one though! Interesting thought? And as for the Americans stopping that madman who is determined to smash us to bits (by his incredibly stupid actions) - I guess you mean getting rid of Bush?

    "the global security agenda promoted by the US Administration is bankrupt of vision and bereft of principle. Violating rights at home, turning a blind eye to the abuses abroad and using pre-emptive military force where and when it chooses has damaged justice and freedom, and made the world a more dangerous place."
    Amnesty International May 26.2004

    Well - my brain is doing its best too!

    For me I think that civilisitation is about how a nation treats its citizens - its health, education, its old people etc.
    Anecdotally - my son is just home from a year travelling the world - the worst place by far in his opinion was US. He was utterly appalled by the poor clearly sick homeless people in LA. When he asked why the state did nothing - he was told that Bush had cut welfare to allow for his tax cuts for the rich! Ye Gods?
    He also felt an undercurrent of "threat"......... a country where there is so much violent crime, its citizens have to arm themselves with guns, a country which still "fries" people in the electric chair etc....... too barbaric for us Europeans. Perhaps capitalism and its outcomes are acceptable to Americans but would not be to Europeans.
    Or maybe its just social evolution. There is a half way house between the extremes of right wing capitalism and left wing socialism.. America is such a young country - it still has a long way to travel (if its Pressie doesnt manage by his actions to get us all blown up along the way)

    Oh dear Howard - told you we would not agree!

    Still - perhaps its good exercise for brains damaged by benzos!!
    Certainly I will try and condense some info on BP and taper - have 2 people writing to me today about it. Hope it might be of some help.

    Mise

    Last edited by mise ata ann; 05-29-2004 at 05:59 AM.

     
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