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    Old 07-25-2004, 06:16 PM   #1
    Joesaddiction
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    Starting Subutex - Need help

    Hello everyone, I will be starting Subutex this week and after reading all the material, something is not clear. Its says that for my oxy habit I must be in mild withdrawal before getting my first dose. The paperwork they gave me says that my last dose of oxy had to be 24 hrs ago before taking Subutex.

    When I spoke to one of the social workers I was told that my last dose of oxy should be 48 hrs before getting subutex. When I got home I read all the material and called to ask this question again. I was told that everyone is different and 24 to 30 hrs should be fine.

    24 to 30 hrs sounds ok to me but is it necessary to go 48hrs into withdrawal before getting subutex?

    PLease write back as soon as you can as I will start on Wed of this week. I did manage to taper down from 250mg to 60mg of oxy a day. I seem to hit a brick wall at 60mgs.I am hoping that it will be easier to get off oxy at these lower levels. But I will do whatever is necessary.

    Best Regards......Joe

     
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    Old 07-25-2004, 08:15 PM   #2
    Banker
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    The answer is to try and wait as long as you can... you need to be feeling some withdrawals, no question about it... you will be o.k., as long as you wait AT LEAST 24 but longer if you can. If you start feeling really sick... then go ahead and start it... just don't do it before the first day.
    Let me know if you have any other quesitons. This med has saved my life!!!

     
    Old 07-26-2004, 04:42 AM   #3
    goddessgrl65
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    Joe-
    I am also on suboxone-you should wait-as long as possible-if your detoxing from oxys-since they are time released you may need to wait longer-but generally its 24 hrs...also since its subutex/and not suboxone-pure bupe..it should be fine-i think i waited-12 hrs-and i was not given the introductory phase of subutex...so i was not feeling too well for the first day or so-
    Call your dr. if you are not sure-Best of luck-im w/ banker-this med saved my life too.
    GGrl65

     
    Old 07-26-2004, 06:00 AM   #4
    KIMBEE
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    Joe, Hi, I have to agree with the others just try and make it as long as you possibly can, you will be a bit uncomfortable, but this drug is so well worth it! I waited 12 hours and did fine, but I was abusing hydrocodone. I think you are going to be amazed how well this works, I wish you tons of luck! You will be just fine. I have been on Suboxone for going on a year now and my life is so much more stable and happier. I just wish it would have been around a long time ago. It is saving many many lives!! Hang in there you will be fine!

     
    Old 07-26-2004, 06:21 AM   #5
    Baseball65
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    Hi Joe.
    I just went through it myself,and had my own experience,as well as watching others in my detox facility.

    I had to drive 350 miles to the place,and they neglected to tell me to come in Withdrawing.....I took 5-6 lortabs and a couple of xanax just to be able to make the drive,checked in at noon and was told I could not start until at least the following AM.

    I got through the day fine,went to bed at ten PM...and then woke up at 2 AM hurting bad (I never stopped that early in the day before)..just had to walk around,feel the 1000 lb. limbs until 4 or 5.
    Took subetex at 6 am,and was well almost immediately. (18 hours)

    HOWEVER..by the end of the first day I began getting very ill and was that way for 36 hours.

    I don't know exactly why...I was also addicted to xanax,benzo's and thats what the Dr. blamed it on.

    But..all the other subetex detoxers in the facility had been off their Narcs 24 hours before they got there,and were a lot less sicker than me.....

    so...it sounds like they gave you good advice.

    Maybe I wasn't completely "clean" ,WD symptoms Hadn't fully engaged....maybe I wasn't "bad enough" as I was only chewing up 10 lortabs a day (along with 30 mgs morphine,4-5 mgs of xanax)
    I was the "beginner" of our particular batch.

    The two people closest to me in check in time were a guy on 40 norco a day,and a girl on 300$ worth of heroin.....both had a day clean B4 they came,and both got well before me.

    A little girl doing the Oxy mambo checked in while I was there,and was a WRECK on check in....2 days later she was up and about totally fine.

    HEY ...I'm really glad you're going to do this.It takes courage to do something like this,and you're going to get well.I'm 25 days off of hydrocodone now,and I feel better than I ever did on the stuff.

    Keep posting ,and if it gets tough contact us directly...we'll al be here for you Brother.

    Baseball65

     
    Old 07-26-2004, 12:28 PM   #6
    CromeYellow
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    If your intention is to get clean (not just substitute street drugs or other opiates for Subutex), then definitely try to adhere to the tapering off schedule and when the dose is low enough (.1 - .15mg intramuscular Buprenex, not sure what the equivalent Subutex dose would be), STOP USING ALL DRUGS and deal with the "rebound effect" from the oxycodone and Subutex and mild withdrawal from the Subutex. By the time you are ready to quit everything all oxycodone withdrawal will be finished and will have been masked over by the effects of the Subutex.

    Yes, you will feel very weak and restless, and experience chills, night sweats and insomnia for up to 30 days (could be much less depending on how bad your habit was and how long you used) after your last dose of Subutex, due to the rebound effect of drug deprivation, but it is worth it to get clean and sober.

    Attending 12-Step or Smart Recovery meetings right from the start of detox even before you are clean would be a good idea too. You need all the support you can get because many people never get off the Subutex completely, or relapse back into what they were doing before detox.

    I know it is better to take Subutex than street drugs such as heroin, and it may be better to take Subutex than something like oxycodone, but all opiates result in the same thing -- addiction. If we keep that in mind we will work harder to get off drugs entirely and not substitute one for another.

    The reason it is better to be almost withdrawing before starting the Subutex (buprenorphine) is that bup is both an agonist (substitutes for opiates) and antagonist (competes with opiates). As an antagonist, it competes for the same receptors as the opiates you were taking before and can throw you into a sort of mild withdrawal until it takes hold completely. The more competing opiate you have in your system when starting detox, the worse this "competition" withdrawal process will be.

    If you start taking Subutex while completely loaded on other opiates, you will have to take a lot more Subutex and go through that much more discomfort until the Subutex takes hold properly. This applies to any medical detox...the more time since your last dose, the easier the detox process will be.

    Last edited by CromeYellow; 08-10-2004 at 05:16 PM.

     
    Old 07-26-2004, 02:51 PM   #7
    formygirls3
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    My Dr. had me taking lortab with the subutex the first few days, I woke up in the morning and took the first 2mg sub and 2 lortab 10s and I increased the dose of subutex unill I was at 16 mg and I had stopped taking the lortab by day 3. If you are starting at a low dose of sub (2-4mg) you will be fine if you take it when you wake up in the morning. Oxy is a short acting opiate and should be out of your system fairly quick unlike methadone or sub. I don't understand why 48 hrs would be necessary.
    Good Luck
    Teresa

     
    Old 07-27-2004, 04:26 PM   #8
    Laird
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    Hey there.. Signed up here just to reply to your message. cryellow's explanation for the reason behind waiting is somewhat along the right lines...

    48 hours seems like a ridiculously long time to me, but I was addicted to H and it probably doesn't last as long...

    But, for the record... I've shot up and taken suboxone w/in 8-12 hours and have experience basically no wds...

    good luck - I hope everything works out for you.

     
    Old 07-27-2004, 04:29 PM   #9
    Laird
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    It occurs to me that I didn't answer very explicitly...

    Is it necessary to wait 48 hours?

    No.

     
    Old 07-28-2004, 10:32 AM   #10
    Joesaddiction
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    Update-a little long but a must read........from Joe

    First of all I want to thank all of you that answered me quickly. Second, please forgive spelling\Grammar and also I made an error on the type of treatment I will be getting. It's not Subutex, the name of the drug is Suboxone (buprenorphine\Nalonone. They also started me 1 day earlier. I will take my first suboxone Tue @ 9am.OK, I decided to wait 33 hours after I took my last oxy. I use to have about a 240-280mg a day habit. It took me almost 7 weeks and I managed to get it down to 60mgs a day. Then I seem to hit a brick wall and the next thing I noticed I was back up to a 80mg a day habit. Its time to get help.

    I was a little surprised when I was at the 22 hour mark(cold turkey). I was feeling very little discomfort. I thought this was great and maybe I can do the whole cold turkey thing by myself at home. When I hit 25 hours things started to go downhill. I started with the chills\sweats. It was mild and doable. The 28th hour mark was worse. I was feeling jittery and could not sit still for more than 2 minutes. When I hit 30 hours I could not sit still and my legs were kicking uncontrollably. Damn, I still have 3 hours to go. The next 3 hours were horrible. I was counting the seconds and the clock would not move. I think some of you can relate to that.

    I had my sister (thank god for support) drive me to the detox center and I was so worried while we were driving. I was told before hand that the first day of suboxone will be a little rough due to the very low dosage they will be giving me. When I arrived I was given a 2mg dose and was told to sit down and wait for 1 hour to see if I would have a bad reaction to the drug. No way could I still down for an hour so I went for a walk and returned in 45 mins. I swear that I was feeling a little better but I reasoned to myself that can't be happening with this very low dose and this being the first pill so it must be in my mind.

    After about 50 minutes I was given a second 2mg pill. I was also told to place the pill under my tongue for the best results. It had a bitter orange taste that wasn't that bad. This is the least of my problems. I was also given two (2mgs) pills to take home with me and was told to take the next one at 3pm and the last one before I went to bed. When I arrived home I could not believe it. No more leg kicking, I was very calm and felt about 60 pct better. By 12noon I was almost 80 pct better and I still had 2 pills to take that day. I sat down to eat and held everything down with no problem. The rest of the day was a cake walk.

    I showed up the next day and was given an 8mg pill to dissolve under my tongue and also given two (2mgs) pills to take home. I told them what happen the day before and they though the good results were from waiting over 24 hours (I did 33 hours) and the taper program I was one really made the low dose very effective.

    They want to raise me to 16mg tomorrow and 24mg (Fri) if I need it. I fell great on this 12mg dose for the day. Tomorrow they want to raise me to 16mgs. Should I tell them no? They seem determined to go to 16mgs, then they will ask you if you feel comfortable and if not they will raise you to 24mgs. Does it matter if I taper at 16mgs or 12mgs? I'm not sure what to do at this point. If I don't hear from anyone I will do whatever the doc says.

    If I had to do it over again (I pray never). I would time it (CT) to 24hrs before starting my first suboxone dose. It would have been a lot easier. But what's done is done. Also if you are able to, try and taper down to a lower dose, I'm not sure if this matter's much when you go on suboxone but I believe it has helped me.

    Love all of you's..........Joe

     
    Old 07-28-2004, 11:21 AM   #11
    Twinlynn
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    Joe -

    You sound so hopeful! :-) This is great news! I am really happy that you are already feeling more comfortable. As I mentioned on another thread, just a few moments ago, it's "relief" stories like yours that are slowly helping me make my own decisions about drugs like Suboxone.

    So many of us have such similar stories of how we almost sort of "slipped into" addiction....fighting our own deep depression...and never really thinking through clearly as to where it was leading--and what it could mean. That's certainly what happened in my case. (In your own situation, however, I think your addiction was such a natural reaction to your having to watch you wife leaving this world...and leaving you. Surely, you would reach out for anything that might help dull those images in your brain when you were in such emotional pain. I know that I would have.)

    But, in my own case, I had no good reasons for my rationalizing, other than my depression (at that point, I was caring for my mother, whose dementia was getting worse and worse. :-( Still....in my heart, I really KNEW that I was purposely marginalizing the seriousness and dangers of these opiates--because I simply did not want to deal with them--or really stop them--or to think for a moment that it had actually reached to the addiction stage. Like everyone else, I was sure I could just "stop." Sigh....

    Anyway, it is so wonderful to hear that you are being helped so much... and that you are getting such relief from the Suboxone. Please keep writing to us and updating your reports (a few times a day would be good!! :-) I'll be looking for them!

    Be well...and stay well! :-) Lynn

     
    Old 07-30-2004, 11:12 AM   #12
    maynard
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    160-240 mgs/day, took 120 mgs at around midnight. Doc's appointment was at 3 pm the next afternoon, took suboxone at around 4:30 pm, felt absolutely fine - good even - and never looked back!

    Everyone's body is different though. I have a pretty fast metabolism, I think. The 3 times I've gone from oxy -> suboxone I only was instructed to wait 12 hours and that was sufficient for me. But those first 2 times were 7 day programs...which just don't really work.

     
    Old 07-30-2004, 05:53 PM   #13
    Joesaddiction
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    Maynard -

    I had a feeling I waited too long (33 hrs) but I didn't want to take any chances. Live and Learn.
    I want to ask you about the 7 day programs. This is all new to me. I was told I would be on it for 1 month and they have 2 taper programs to which I would have no choice. The whole thing is Federal or State funded, not sure which one. they have a 28 day and a 7 day taper. That's what they are testing here. Will a 7 day taper work as well as a 28 day taper? I was hoping for the 28 day taper. I sounds like it would be easier. How bad were the withdrawals when you came off suboxone? I'm keeping my fingers crossed. BTW this is my 4th day and my max dosage is 16mg. I could not tell the diference between 12 and 16mgs. But the way they are running the program you wither have to be on 16 or 24mgs and then do the taper. I would have prefered 12mgs if it made the WD's easier.

    Joe

     
    Old 08-10-2004, 05:23 PM   #14
    CromeYellow
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    Re: Starting Subutex - Need help

    What happened Joe?

     
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