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Sub MDs,and Mds in general..ANGRY!!! grr..

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Old 10-20-2004, 03:25 PM   #1
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Baseball65 HB User
Sub MDs,and Mds in general..ANGRY!!! grr..

Hi Ya'all
I've had a hell of a time trying to find a Sub dr. in my area.I went to the info website and got the list,but it seems like they are all either full(30 patients) or will only do it in-patient.

I did find an Md. about 300 miles away,so I'm supposed to start next Thursday(Thats how willing I was....5 hour drive and an overnighter) only,though reasonable if you consider the price of addiction.

I just left the office of the QUACK who my insurance "approved" and referred me to.

Ya know those monstrously long intake papers you have to fill out at a doctors office??

2 weeks ago I filled out stacks of them at the QUACKS office.He was willing at the time to prescribe me sub,but said he couldn't find it at any pharmacy.I did all the foot work,downloaded the forms from the website that he needs to fill out,found a pharmacy that carries it,,,,etc.,etc.etc.

I go for my appointment today and the QUACK says "I didn't realize you were still on the Oxycontin"...
1.I'm not nor have I ever been on oxy
2.I wrote about 20 times on the paperwork "addicted to Hydrocodone...100 mgs a day"
3. he tries to pawn off one of those designer drugs..??? Zonogran??
and says...." Well,I didn't realize you were still addicted....why don't you try cutting back a little and then I'll think about putting you on sub once you've quit the Hydro for a while" !!!!!!!!!!!!

so...I'm just angry and incredulous that this QUACK has the arrogance to solicit himself as an Addiction Psychologist and doesn't seem to know the first thing about addiction....

Hey buddy,If I could just quit for a while I WOULDN'T BE IN YOUR OFFICE,EINSTEIN !!!!!!!!!!

I just had to vent a little

any support or advice from other sub users would be much appreciated.

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Old 10-20-2004, 10:17 PM   #2
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Location: Chicago Ridge,Illinois
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Hope12 HB User
Re: Sub MDs,and Mds in general..ANGRY!!! grr..

How true!!! I'm not a sub user,but appreciated your sense of humor!!I had my share of doctors doing/saying some similar things during my quest to find a doc who would supervise me for a home detox,and some of their response were so freakin stupid,and I mean REAL jaw-droppers that I was left so totally dumbfounded and speechless I would end up leaving unable to control shaking my head back and forth. You have my full support,and hope you successfully make that 300 mile trip.It'll probably end up being the best ride you ever took!!Much luck and prayers,


Old 10-20-2004, 11:12 PM   #3
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DallasAli HB User
Re: Sub MDs,and Mds in general..ANGRY!!! grr..

Hi Baseball,

Although we've never really "met," I've followed your story for awhile now, and I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am that this situation happened. It's hard enough when we're addicted to get the nerve up to speak to a health professional about our addiction, and then to get all geared up the way you did--combined with the roadtrip you took--only to find out you weren't going to be treated either medically or professionally, say "what a bummer" is surely an understatement.

I found it odd that you weren't told you had to be in some stage of withdrawal prior to starting the sub? And even if that is the case, I'm surprised they didn't at least send you on your way with a script so you could get started at the appropriate time without having to make this trip all over again! (since you knew what pharmacy you could go to to get them...or at least they could call it in I'd think...?)

But I am not very well-versed on the sub as I am on methadone for my prior 15/day vicodin habit (the 10/325s so about 150 mgs. a day of the hydro). The only info on sub I know is what I read here combined with a little they offer at my clinic. Sub is an option at this clinic I go to, but for some reason it is not offered at the sliding scale pay rate, so it would have cost me around $4-500/mth for it, and I was able to go the methadone way for $180/mth. If I could have afforded it, I might have tried the sub as I'm concerned about when it comes time to get off the meth, but oh well...for now it has worked and has literally saved me...not just in funds, but in less stress (you know, worrying and wondering about "who, when & where" the next refill was going to come from?!), and it really did work for me...since I've found my stable dose, I no longer crave the hydro. I am glad to see you have insurance (I didn't) that will help with the cost of the sub, and as you is reasonable compared to the price of addiction. I was easily spending anywhere between $3-$500/mth on the hydros, and now I have a stack of maxed out credit card bills to deal with as a result. I didn't want to keep adding to my debt, so again, that is probably the main reason I went with the meth. Please don't think my post is to encourage you to do the methadone in any way! I am writing you because I am just truly sorry for your experience given your past posts, and I mention the meth only because I was unable to afford the sub.

I hope you will keep trying to find a way to get off the hydros...I didn't know either that when I wanted to start the meth that I had to be in a minor state of w/ds, so I went home that first day, and I had promised the clinic dr. I wouldn't take anything after midnight and I'd come back the next day to start dosing. By the time I took my first dose, I had been without a hydro for approximately 10 hours, which wasn't anywhere near the w/ds I'd put myself into trying to go c/t, but they said that was enough and dosed me that day. I wonder if it would have been the same if I had chosen the sub, hmmmm? Well, anyway...once again I hope you find a way to get on the sub as I've read here that it is truly a life-saver, and given what you've already been through in the recent past, I know your desire to quit this is very strong.

Good luck to you and best wishes,

Dallas Alice

Old 10-21-2004, 06:31 AM   #4
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Baseball65 HB User
Hi D-Alice...Uh...let me clarify..

Hi Dallas Alice
Thanks for listening.

I was actually talking/writing about 2 different doctors in that post.Just like my kids when they are all emotionally juiced, I started to talk about 2 different things at once.I was reeeeeeeally ANGRY.

The QUACK in my post is the Addiction Psychologist that my insurance sent me to.He's the one who was originally willing to prescribe sub,I did the paperwork for,and that didn't know I was STILL addicted even though I'd written it down about 20 times.

The Dr. out of town specializes in hydro/oxy patients,and I have an appointment with him next Thursday afternoon/overnighter/Friday AM.He only takes cash,though it's relatively affordable if you take into consideration the expense of our addiction. I asked my insurance if they would pay,but their answer is " but we're already sending you to a guy....what else do you need?"

Anyways....I found him myself after hours of phone calls and searching the web.I actually got a clue from this board,though I'll not repeat it,as I noticed that post was removed....I re-read the rules and realized that even discussions about where to find help are to be personal and not posted if they have names,cities, etc.

I have followed the "stats" on this board,and it seems like the people who have some kind of taper/substitute i.e. sub or methadone seem to stay away from the pills/dope a lot better than the CT's.

When I wen thru "rapid de-tox" last time,I didn't realize it was the sub still in my system that was making me feel so OK.I could actually graph my collapse backwards to the day I left.I know sub stays in your system for 36-72 hours,which is why it takes about 3 days to feel all the way OK,and why it takes about 3 days to totally meltdown.

I also noticed that the majority of us are parents...workers,and seem to all be around the same age group plus or minus a decade....coincidence???

---thanks for listening


Old 10-23-2004, 06:17 AM   #5
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Beginagain2 HB User
Re: Sub MDs,and Mds in general..ANGRY!!! grr..

Don't these people know that any doctor that operates as a corporation (and most do) that the 30 patient a day limit has been lifted. Soon any doctor will be able to write a script for suboxone. What does it matter anyway. Even the doctors who take the suboxone course don't seem to know anything about it. All they hear in that class is that extra money can be extored from junkiees. I spend exactly 1 minute and 48 seconds with my sub doctor. I timed it once. He charges me $100 dollars every month (everyone else pays $80.00 for the office visit). This is cash only. No check, no credit cards and definately no insurance.

There is a stigma attached to addiction that no other disease carries. Once you admit to a doctor that you are an addict, you will be treated different and pay more than other patients.

It pisses me off too since I did not "choose" to be an addict. Not any more than I choose to suffer from depression. I cant simply "cheer up". My brain does not work that way. I don't believe that people choose to suffer from high blood pressure, diabeties, mental illness and as controversial as it may be, I don't believe that people chose their sexual preference. Fkn ignorant doctors. I would like to see them go through even a day of what we have dealt with all of our lives.

Last edited by Beginagain2; 10-23-2004 at 06:30 AM.

Old 10-25-2004, 02:58 AM   #6
Join Date: Oct 2004
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amthsh HB User
Re: Sub MDs,and Mds in general..ANGRY!!! grr..

100\$??? damn thats cheap. I had oc habit of 200+ and went on sub for 4 months. Cost me 1000$ for 'induction' of 4 visits. then 150 a visit after that. I started to ween from the first week and got down to around 1mg a day. Jumped 16 days ago and it was pure hell. Way worse than hydro withdrawal.... but not as bad as oc. So, did help me to break the obsession and also the snorting habit. But was no cake walk and still brutal withdrawal for 1 week followed by generally feeling badly ..ongoing... argh.

but i am free! Suboxone was good overall for me, but no miracle drug and withdrawal from it is very difficult. I had to take a week off work and then second week only worked 4-5 hrs a day before 'losing it'.

best to all who are here.


Old 10-25-2004, 05:57 AM   #7
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Baseball65 HB User
how long ? How much ?

How long were you on the sub,and what was your dose?

How slow did you taper?

The MD I'm about to start with will let you go as long as 12-18 months,but since I'm doing this to get OFF off hydro,I didn't want to incite a worse problem.I want to start on the minimum dose that will keep me "well"

6 months ago whan I first joined this board,NOBODY talked about the kick from sub....when I was in terror kicking,no one had any answers.
Now it seems to be common knowledge that the sub has a kick of it own(which I had my own little taste of)


Old 10-25-2004, 06:33 AM   #8
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Thumbs up Re: Sub MDs,and Mds in general..ANGRY!!! grr..

Hey baseball,
I am in the same predicament as you. I am getting ready to start sub and have heard good and bad things. I just had a long tallk with my brother in law about sub. He has been on it for about 2 weeks at 24mg? He was heavily addicted to hydro and just about any other pain killer available. His doctor and also the one I am going to go to won't even discuss getting off of it. My broth in law is doing extremely well on this. He has been through 2- 30 day rehabs about 2 months apart and immediately starte using again after each rehab. He said he has never felt this good about himself and says he has absolutely no desire to use now. I am worried about when it comes time to come off of sub. I have seen where people have weaned off of it with no minimal problems and have also heard the horror stories about coming off of it. I am taking the chance to get better now and stay on it for as long as I can. I know what it is like to cold turkey off of vics,oxy,ultram,xanax and klonopin all at the same time. So If coming off the sub is bad I will just have to deal with it but hopefully not for years. Maybe then I will have my ***** together and just do it. I have been following your post since before you went to rehab and since you have been out. I have talked to fisherpard and octomon about this on this board also. I have not heard one bad thing about being on it except for some minor side effects that I am sure you have been through with the stuff your on. The way I look at it lets get going on it get our ***** together and be happy for once. My brother in law said he can't believe how good he feels about himself ant that is something I haven't done in years. If I have to take this stuff for the rest of my life then so be it but I will be a better person for my family and myself. Good luck and keep on keepin on. Also baseball has been my life but now I have a state champion wrestler and a future state champ to keep me busy. I will do anything for my boys and I and my family think the sub route will be the best for all of us. I am lucky that I have alot of support I hope you do too.

Last edited by murphy65; 10-25-2004 at 06:35 AM.

Old 10-25-2004, 10:52 AM   #9
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murphy65 HB User
Re: Sub MDs,and Mds in general..ANGRY!!! grr..

Hey Baseball,
I notice your Baseball65 if the 65 is for when you were born that is when I was too.
Any way I go to my doc today to get a referral to go to the sub doc. From now on I am not reading anymore posts about sub I am going to let my body and brain tell me you know what I mean. I am going to take it and forget about trying to get off of it and start trying to enjoy life. My oldest boy is a pitcher too. He is a freshman and throws in the mid to high 80's but that is how I was but stopped growing. I am 5'8" and that hurt me. A good friend of mine who pitched for the cubs and cards and a few other teams (his last name is clark) pitched against me in high school. Let your son try wrestling it is great. one on one. my son started when he was 7 and has had great success. I will keep in touch, got to go to doc and wife is yelling at me.

Old 10-25-2004, 01:32 PM   #10
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Baseball65 HB User
Hey Murph65

yeah...1965...a good year for people on this board...I just asked another member..there are a BUNCH of blank65's on this board.

My sub drs office called this AM and moved me up to Wednesday/Thursday.

I asked a few more questions.It seems he starts people on subutex instead of suboxone.I though they were the the same thing,different manufacturer( I know suboxone has naloxone which makes it un-injectable)but she said that whole 5x/4x/3x/ bs is just that BS! She said most of the patients only take it once or twice a day.They make you hang around the office for 2 and a half hours to make sure the dose was effective...I respect that...the last QUACK I saw wrote me a script that almost killed me without even taking my BP!!

Than you go back the next day,to get checked out,re-dosed and set up for the first month.That's it.

I've never put my son on a radar gun,as I'm certain he would Immedately overthrow.I taught him the Leo Mazzone method...we don't focus so much on break and velocity,but on spin control. he throws all 4 fastball/curveball/slider/change but only uses the latter 3 against quality hitters.
The 4 seam fastball if "spun" instead of "thrown" will tend to sink through the strike zone.In fact,the fact that he doesn't muscle it up there gets the hitters bats moving,but they haven't ever seen a ball lose altitude that fast ,that late.Against a fastball,the usual "strike" is a swing and a miss under the ball.Ever since we focused on spinning,he has hitters swinging Over the ball.also...when you stress spin,the pitcher will generally stay compacter and not over-extend,and virtually every arm injury I've ever heard of can be traced back to over extension.
Anyways,its called "pitch like a pro" and its only about 50 pages...definitely the best book I ever read on the subject and Mazzones boys (maddux,glavine,smoltz) have been some of the most injury free guys in the game....good testimony to his coaching...


Old 10-25-2004, 04:24 PM   #11
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murphy65 HB User
Re: Sub MDs,and Mds in general..ANGRY!!! grr..

Yea I had to teach my son that an 85mph fastball right down the middle is a hitters dream. He learned the hard way. I always would have rather hit against a guy throwing 95 mph strikes than a good junker. If he could pitch like he wrestles it would be scary. I got lined up to go to my sub doc thurs morning. I hope like hell this works. Don't take this the wrong way but I have got down on my knees and prayed and prayed for help and never seemed to even get a hint. So I feel if the big man wont help me I am on my own. My 2 sons wrestling season is just starting and I coach my 10 yr old and his team and my 14 yr old is starting his fresh. yr. I have to be there for them I just have to . That is my world those 2 kids. I have to make this sub work. If I can help you baseball you have my word I will if it is just a note here and there or a 10 hour long e-mail whatever it takes. This is my last chance. Take care and lets start enjoying living life.

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