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    Old 02-27-2006, 10:58 PM   #1
    shelley2977
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    3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    HI, I COULD USE A LITTLE ADVISE. AFTER BEING ON 5-7 DAILY NORCO FOR 2 1/2 YRS DUE TO CHEMO AND SURGERIES I DECIDED TO GET OFF 3 WEEKS AGO. I HAD MAJOR WITHDRAWAL SYMPTONS AND GOT THROUGH 8 OR 9 DAYS AS SICK AS A DOG. WHEN I WENT TO MY ONCOLOGIST SHE SAID DUE TO MY CANCER SITUATION I COULD NOT DO IT COLD TURKEYTHAT A NEEDED TO TAPER OFF THE DRUG. I AM NOW TAKING 1 1/2 PILLS PER DAY AND I AM STILL HAVING HORRIBLE WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS. SHE WANTS ME TO TAKE 2 1/2 PILLS BUT I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE ANYMORE THEN THE 1 1/2. DID ANYONE TAPER OFF OF NORCO AND HAVE SEVERE LOWER BACK PAIN, HEADACHES, NAUSEA WEEKS LATER? THE NORCO I AM TAKING DOES NOT TAKE AWAY ANY OF THESE SYMPTOMS AT ALL. HOW LONG WILL THESE SYMPTOMS LAST? OF COURSE SHE GAVE ME ATIVAN,ULTACET,CATAPRES PATCH, KLONOPIN,AMBEIN, WHICH I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE. I THOUGHT I WOULD BE FEELING MUCH BETTER HAVING CUT DOWN FROM 7 TO 1 1/2. THNAKS, SHELLEY

     
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    Old 02-27-2006, 11:09 PM   #2
    Constant
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    Re: 3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    How fast did you taper from 7.5 to 1.5?

     
    Old 02-27-2006, 11:11 PM   #3
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    Re: 3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    Oh and also, when are you taking your 1.5? Are you splitting the dose or taking it all at once?

     
    Old 02-27-2006, 11:24 PM   #4
    Constant
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    Re: 3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    I guess you've signed off.

    I would have to agree with your doctor. I believe you have tapered too quickly, especially given your health challenges. I would strongly suggest going up to the 2.5 or 3 for that matter. If you do the 2.5 I would split the dose and take 1.25 two times a day. If you were to go to three, I would take 1 three times a day. From there, I would take at least five days and at most taper down .50.

    This is not a race and there is no reason, imo, to put yourself through this when you can taper much more successfully. You have proven you CAN taper and I would much rather see you taper then go on any of those other drugs she has supplied you with.

    Last edited by Constant; 02-27-2006 at 11:24 PM.

     
    Old 02-28-2006, 12:31 AM   #5
    shelley2977
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    Re: 3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Constant
    How fast did you taper from 7.5 to 1.5?
    HI, I CAN'T SLEEP AND THOUGHT I'D CHECK POST, THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING. I WENT FROM THE 7 TO 1 1/2 IN I THINK 3 WEEKS? I KNOW THAT I FISRT WENT FROM 7 TO 4 THEN 3 THEN 2 IN A WEEK OR SO. THEN I HAD 1/2 FOR 2 DAYS AND THEN 0 FOR 8 DAYS THEN BACK TO 1 1/2. I ALSO HAVE MY HUSBAND ON MY BACK WANTING ME OFF AND HE THINKS HE'S A DOCTOR AND WANTS ME TO STAY AT 1 1 /2. I AM ALSO VERY VERY ANGRY AT HIM ALL OF THE TIME SINCE I AM DETOXING. THANK YOU FOR SAYING IT IS NOT A RACE. I FELT LIKE SO MANY PEOPLE WERE TAKING FAR MORE PILLS THEN I AND GOT OFF THEM IN A WEEK OR 2 AND FELT GREAT. I TAKE 1/2 3 X DAILY. THE BACK PAIN IS BACK TONIGHT AND I HAVE ULTRACET. SOMETIMES I WISH I WAS NOT MARRIED! OH MY GOD, I CAN'T BELIEVE I WROTE THAT! ANYWAY, THANK YOU FOR ANY IMPUT.

     
    Old 02-28-2006, 01:08 AM   #6
    Constant
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    Re: 3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    Yeah, marriage certainly has it's ups and downs and when detoxing, especially if they are trying to control us, makes it very difficult to keep from knocking them upside the head.

    I think your taper was way to fast for you. You have the luxury of tapering and seemingly the ability to successfully taper (many of us just can't stick to a taper).

    I wonder if it would be helpful to have your husband speak to your doctor in an effort to help him understand better.

    Hang in there. Keep us posted.

     
    Old 02-28-2006, 05:02 PM   #7
    jam338
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    Re: 3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    Shelley, some questions for ya:
    1. When you tapered from the 7 to 4 level what, if any, WDs?
    2. When you tapered from 4 to 3 level what, if any, WDs?

    Shelley, I am trying to get a handle on if what you are experiencing is detox WDs or post-detox WDs....of course the difference doesn't mean a rat's a** to your body cuz WDs is WDs to it. But, it might matter in terms of going back again. It is normal to have post-detox WDs. If they are unbearable for you, then perhaps you should consider going back up, but evaluate carefully. Opiate detox WDs are usually about 1 week; however, with your medical situation it is possible that you could be uniquely experiencing extended WDs. I can only hope that your doctor is right in advising to to resume doseages after knowing you were already drug free for 8 days....just seems like it could risk major steps back. It is possible as well that your symptoms after 8 days of being drug free could be related something other than WD, but there is no way of knowing that for sure I guess. Just seems such a shame to regress with a major 8 day drugfree achievement. But, like Constant said, this is not a race or a contest honey. You have to decide a process that feels right for you or you risk triggering fear and aborting the whole damn thing. You have support here no matter what you decide is best for you.

     
    Old 02-28-2006, 11:54 PM   #8
    shelley2977
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    Re: 3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    jam, i had bad withdrawals both times. now i am taking one whole pill at 10:30 am and the other pill at 4:30 pm. this makes the withdrawal symptoms less for me. i still have bad stomach aches and headaches. i do have residual pain from the chemo drugs that i was given and the anti-cancer med that i currently take so i am not sure what i will do when i get off the last pill and a half. i guess i will have to join another topic here. i am very bitchy and i am craving sugar! i am eating like a horse! yes, i am shocked that i still feel bad when others get off much higher does of drugs in 7 or 8 days and feel great. maybe it has something to do with my body having had chemo. i do miss the pills, they made me happy all of the time so i am not any different then anyone else here. i hope tomorrow is a better day and yes, when the doc said get back on i was upset but decided to listen to her. but , it has made the withdrawals a bit better. be well, shelley

     
    Old 03-01-2006, 09:34 AM   #9
    jam338
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    Re: 3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    Shelley, sounds like definitely the taper was way too fast and caused the WDs. A slower taper will ease, but not likely eliminate them. Not sure if anyone has posted that they have done a taper where they experienced absolutely no WDs at all....I just don't know enough about that part since with all aspects of my failed efforts to taper.

    Shelley you say you miss the pills. That suggests that maybe you have not yet experienced the full maddening cycle??...not sure...sounds like you may still be partially in Phase 1 maybe bouncing between 1 & 3?? Hard to sort out because once I reached Phase 3, I hated those damn pills and have trouble envisioning missing them once Phase 3 is reached, but maybe that is just me. Sorry, just trying to sort out in my mind where your level is so I know better how to respond to try and help you. Please read below and post where you think you are, assuming that any of it even matches any aspect you are personally experiencing. I say that because the following phases are based only on my own personal experience, and perhaps my perspective is a lil different than many on here because it seems my actual experience maybe was a lil different. It seems that many here may have progressively chased the euphoric feeling which lead to addiction. I did not. My experience is more from the prospective of the hell one still goes through even you chose the other fork in the road...staying within your rx. Experiences like mine, I think really demonstrates both roads lead to Hydro Hell. Let me explain what I mean, and of course this is only my own perspective based on what happened to me, but here goes.

    There is a very dangerous murky zone where for a period of time in the cycle that dependency and addiction is crossthreaded. Folks either catch the alert signs and jump off the merrygoround w/taper or CT; or, they escalate from dependency into addiction and then end up in taper or CT eventually anyway. So, either way both roads lead to same end. Assuming that, then there is a case to be made for more effective dependency management before it escalates into addiction. The real problem is with situation such as yours with chemotherapy and anti-cancer med pain, do you have other viable options?

    This is what I experienced with "the cycle", and again there will undoubtedly be variances among individuals based on their own history, length of use and level of use, etc. I was prescribed hydro for pain management for back pain and fibromyalgia. The following is my experience with "the cycle":

    Phase 1, Euphoria Phase:

    In addition to the pain management properties of hydro, we all know in the beginning there is a "euphoria window"…everything is great…lots of energy, the world is wonderful, sex is great, can life just get no better??? During this phase, I would “miss” the pills but didn’t get sick without them. I thought....pffffft, what is all this ****** about being bad for ya…not for me, man I feel great…(sound familiar?…read on).

    Phase 2, Blunted Phase aka Dark Hydro Haze Depression:
    Window #1 began progressively closed as my tolerance grew. Euphoric feeling as well as the pain management effectiveness slowly fades away and is replaced by emotional blunting and detachment from people and things. During this phase I was headed for trouble but not a clue. Begin experiencing mini WDs between doses. I was functional but miserable. I was able to work and do things….but enjoyed nothing… I began to mechanically go through life…just wanted to go to bed and pull the covers over my head and frequently did so when no one was around to see me….would stay home from work and just go to bed….a very dark Hydro Haze depression set in.

    Phase 3, Mini Hydro Hell:
    The crazy sounding phase that most might find incredulous unless you have experienced it. The Drug Demon gets ugly and plays dirty pool. At this phase, my body was in full dependency. Every morning I would wake up feeling sick with feelings equivalent to Day 1 of WD cycle---the very first waking thought before I ever lifted my head off the pillow was needing to take my pill. I had now reached the phase where my current rx level was only giving me short term WD relief ....no pain management/no euphoria. Worst yet, I now had a pain level that far exceeded the pain level for which I was prescribed the stuff to start with!!! My body sensories were hijacked…boomeranging on me….giving me sharper pain signals DEMANDING for the pain to be treated. When I didn’t comply by giving additional drugs, the response was MORE PAIN and misery….anything to MAKE me give it what it needed. My brain started thinking .....seeeeeeeee, you HAVE pain...go ahead...you know that you REALLY NEED it...go ahead. But, I didn't...God knows why not, but I didn't. I sure thought about it...a lot. Found myself looking up info online on how to get other sources. Lord knows what snapped me into my senses, but thank God something did and gave me the strength to home detox.

    Phase 3: Hydro Hell Detox WDs
    For the benefit of others reading...much is posted on this phase throughout many threads. This phase is about 5-7 days with Days 2-3 usually the worst for most. Some folks are able to manage work and handling responsibilities; some are not. Best advise is plan a week off or plan detox where the 2 day worst days are on your days off, but be aware you may call in sick a day or two beyond that. There is a post-detox mini WD period, but you will be able to resume work, functioning ,and meeting your responsibilities. During post-detox WDs, you will feel much better, but probably not great. It took time to get you here and it will take time to build back your system.

    Shelley, where, would you pinpoint yourself at this point? Hon, a major concern I would have about your situation is that I know you are understandably troubled about drug dependency/addiction risks. But, does your doctor think you will be able to cope with the chemo and anti-cancer med pain issues ok without pain med assistance? What a crappy dilemma you are in having to navigate this, bless your heart. I just hope your doctor has an alternative plan for you to cope w/the pain issues.

    Last edited by jam338; 03-01-2006 at 10:50 AM.

     
    Old 03-02-2006, 12:14 AM   #10
    shelley2977
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    Re: 3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    jam, at the end of the 2 1/2 years i started getting depressed and not really doing anything all day. staying in bed because the pain pills started making me really tired instead of the buzz i first got. yes, each morning i rolled over to pop 2 pills. i had to have those pills due to major pain. i did not realize it was just withdrawal symptoms because i had not taken a pill for 10 hours. i no longer get a buzz when i take these pills. i would say i was at the mini hydro hell when i decided i was addicted to these pills and i felt miserable. my oncologist wants me to see a pain management guy, she does not want to get involved with dealing with my pain. i am seeing one on the 7th of march, i only hope his advice will not be narcotics for my pain. i have to admit the pain is not as bad now that i have cut back on the norco. could the norco have been causing pain? thank you for all of your support. i would swear you are a doctor! regards, shelley

     
    Old 03-02-2006, 03:22 AM   #11
    jam338
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    Re: 3 Weeks Later -norco Still Leaving System?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shelley2977
    could the norco have been causing pain?
    In my opinion and in my own hydro experience, YES, the Norco could have been causing it. What I experienced in the Mini Hydro Hell phase was similar. Once the tolerance built, the pain management and the euphoric aspect of the drug flatlined. It then progressed into mini-WD feeling between doses, so clearly it signalled a growing problem--I just didn't know it. Unfortunately, I didn't know enough at that time to enable me to identify the cycle. What I know now however is that when the body doesn't receive a sufficient level of the drug to calm the dependency demon, it has a very strange effect on the body. More specifically, during the early phase of taking painkillers the messaging center only runs one way; external to internal where you provide the external drug and it calms the brain pain center. In the dependency phase however, the signal progressively begins to silently run the other way; internal to external where the brain actually triggers a silent messanger to your body which reroutes an elevated pain signal back to the brain; i.e., a demand for INCREASED external pain management supply. Once that phase/cycle begins it is a repeating and escalating rotation that is as difficult for an unknowing person to identify what is actually happening and even more difficult to know what to do about it. For us, we just see pain as pain and are tricked into the cycle of treating it.....thus the spiral begins that either traps us into dependency hell or causes us to evolve into addiction hell. Very ugly cycle either way.

    Last edited by jam338; 03-02-2006 at 03:30 AM.

     
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