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    Old 08-09-2006, 08:37 PM   #1
    DomyDog
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    Angry My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    Hello all who read this. Just introducing myself and describing the nightmare I have been through as a result of addiction to drugs in general (I've been addicted to almost all the street drugs available here in the UK and far too many pharmaceutical substances for all of my adult, and a large chunk of my teenage, life), and in particular, opiates/oids.
    Two years ago I had finally had enough of Heroin and Crack Cocaine and referred myself to a local CDAT who put me on Subutex (Buprenorphine). I got addicted to Heroin about 10 years ago because of my addiction to Crack Cocaine: I started using it to cope with the 'prang' (come down) that comes part and parcel with smoking Crack. I had a choice, I could have gone on Methadone, again, but was told that Subutex was far safer than either H or Meth and that the withdrawal symptoms created by the cessation of Subutex use in relation to H+Meth were negligible and, if one tapers very slowly, could be virtually non-existant. I bit their hands off and began my Sub use with impunity. For most of the first year I messed about using H now and then along with Crack. After around a year, however, I began to get loads of side effects from the Sub and thought it was because I was messing about with it and by then had been through 2 rehabs (yep, unbelievably I went into my second rehab on 8mg of Sub and walked out 4 months later still on 4mg per day...long story) and had had enough of my lifestyle so got stable on the Sub alone. The side effects remained-insomnia, loss of appetite, intense anxiety, paranoia, and amnesia to name a few. This continued for around 10 months. I was on my second CDAT because of moving around, homelessness, and eviction, however, they really helped me get stable by way of prescribing me a small dose of Temazepam to counter the SEs and managed to get me housed by a council in the lovely bungalow I live in now. The downside of my being housed ( I have been properly homeless far too many times and for too long and got housed mainly because I developed epilepsy through Crack addiction)was that I moved into the catchment area of another, notoriously negligent, CDAT. Without any reference to my history they stopped my Temazepam and the SEs came back with a vengance. I was desperate and 23 days ago took my last dose of 8mg of Sub. 3 days later I was in hell. Having only had experience of H withdrawls (WDs) I exoected to start feeling better after a week at most. How wrong I was. After 14 days I was still feeling acute WDs and thought it would never end. All of the stuff I had been told about the substance was spurious. I was livid with anger. I felt as though my dealer had become a pharm company that were plying me with a drug much worse than H (Methadone is the same) and had got me on it by way of lying to all and sundry about its effects. I was getting absolutely no support at all from my CDAT and was stuck at home alone contemplating my life and ending it there and then. Such is the debilitating nature of Subutex withdrawal and general opiate/oid addiction.
    Tonight I am awake once again at 4:30am. I did sleep last night for the first time in 3 weeks so am getting better. Be warned though. If anyone reading this is thinking about substituting Sub for H, it is a good idea as it got me off the street but DON'T STAY ON IT FOR TOO LONG. Get off it ASAP or you may end up in the same boat as I was. It is a short term, detox drug, not a maintenance drug. I have done my research and liased with addicts who have fell foul to this substance in the same way that I have-I am not the only one.
    I sincerely hope that this post helps people for that is why I have compiled it.
    God bless
    PEACE
    Dom

    Last edited by DomyDog; 08-09-2006 at 08:52 PM.

     
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    Old 08-09-2006, 11:55 PM   #2
    birddz
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    Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    domydog,
    thanks for your advice,sorry to hear it didn't work for you,glad your beginning to get a couple of hours sleep now,keep battling through it pal.i am just intending on going on subutex for about a month ,do you think i should ask for some sleepers along with the subutex to ease it.i'm finding the sleep a bit rough just now ,only got 3 hours kip last night and thats with the 20mls meth but thats been a quick detox.thanks bizz.

     
    Old 08-10-2006, 12:50 AM   #3
    DomyDog
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    Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    Ok Bizz,
    In my humble opinion lack of sleep is the one factor which will cause someone trying to do their rattle to throw the towel in and get back on the gear. If you can get sleepers off your doc and you reckon you can leave them when you are over the worst they may help. Zopiclone is less of a risk than Moggys (Nitrazepam) or the rest of the Benzos apparently although it works on the GABA receptors in your brain same as Benzos so I ain't sure about that but if my doc would have played ball that's what I would have asked for. If you stand no chance getting sleepers prescribed (I couldn't get them legally for love nor money cos of my history of abusing them) there are OTC sleep aids like Phenergan (sedating antihisthamine) and many others. See how you feel but I know how much of a nightmare the insomnia is, after all, keeping people awake is a well documented and used form of torture so if you are honest with your doc I am sure they might be sympathetic.
    Sleep does return though eventually and natural sleep is worth triple the hours of chemically induced sleep. Whatever choice you make, you ain't alone Bizz and you got my support mate. Hang in there.
    Good luck
    Hope this helped
    DD

     
    Old 08-10-2006, 10:13 AM   #4
    JAT
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    Thumbs up Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    Domy, I'm sorry to hear the Hell you have been going through. I have alot of experience with Subutex and Suboxone and would be glad to answer any questions you have. That is, assuming you have any questions.

    I gasped when I read that you went from 8 mg. of Sub to ZERO!! That is not only not recommended, it's also dangerous. It sounds like the worst of your nightmare is over but if you take anything from me, take this:

    IF YOU EVER AGAIN FEEL THE NEED FOR OPIATES, TAKE SOME SUBUTEX INSTEAD, UNTIL YOU ARE PAST THOSE FEELINGS. DO NOT GO BACK TO ANY ILLEGAL DRUGS OR ANYTHING LIKE NORCO OR VICODIN. THESE DRUGS WILL DRAG YOU BACK INTO HELL. AND CERTAINLY, IF THOSE FEELINGS DO RETURN, GET INTO COUNSELING OR TALK TO SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS YOUR PROBLEM AND WILL HELP KEEP YOU FROM GETTING BACK ON THESE DRUGS.

    (rant over)

    The reason for my rant is that people who are close to the end of these drugs, tend to jump back into fire because they are so used to the high. Especially if you've been taking them so long.

    You also mentioned:

    Quote:
    insomnia, loss of appetite, intense anxiety, paranoia, and amnesia
    These are all side effects of opiate tapering. Ambien CR helped me with sleep. I also used Melatonin. Loss of appetite should disappear when you're stable on a particular dose. Anxiety happens when you're decreasing too much. Anxiety also happens when you are very constipated. I've had colon cleansing that have made me feel great.

    Your doctor can recommend something to help you for anxiety and also for paranoia. My amnesia will probably be permanent in some memories and return to normal for most of my memories.

    In my worst times, I would watch a movie and then a month later forget I ever saw it. In fact, I watched the film, "The Forgotten", and then forgot that I watched it!! Now, I've watched that film so many times that I can quote dialog!!

     
    Old 08-11-2006, 02:07 AM   #5
    DomyDog
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    Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    Wise words JAT. I have to be honest and say that I have, during the worst hours of my Sub detox, contemplated using illegal H as I absolutely hate Sub. Fortunately I haven't been there and, as I am over the worst of the Sub detaox, don't feel that way any more. It is hard but I feel as though I will stay off opiates now. It just ain't worth all the hassle. I appreciate your post. They all help. Also, you're absolutely right about my jumping of at 8mg. It was a really stupid thing to do. No wonder I have had such a nightmare. Story of my life really. Being an addict, I wanted to be clean NOW, an instant fix or so to speak. Hopefully I have learnt my lesson and will be more prepared to wait for things in the future. Again, thanks for your post. Hopefully I won't have cause to pick your brains about the Bup for me as I hope to stay off it. The only time will be for a friend, touch wood.
    Take care
    PEACE
    DD

     
    Old 08-11-2006, 02:15 PM   #6
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    Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    domydog cheers for the advice about my sleepless nights,it is tough and i know i'll get through it but it's hard at the time when every 5mins feel like 5 hours,it's good that there are people out there like yourself and everyone on this website that have been there and done that and can give realistic advice ,a lot of the time more accurate and compassionate than some of the doctors and councellors i've spoken to.not all to be fair though,but in my opinion a lot of them seem to look down on addicts ,maybe i'm just paranoid but over the last 10 years the ones i've dealt with ain't really interested and could do a lot more than they do.well sorry for ma ranting,lack of sleep is my excuse,.thanxs for your advice,how are you getting on d.d. anyway what does domydog stand for ,is it a nickname? take care pal,speak again ,cheers!!Bizz

     
    Old 08-11-2006, 04:48 PM   #7
    DomyDog
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    Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    Bizz. Ha ha, I was waiting for someone to ask me about my nickname. I picked up the nickname 'Domy Dog Sh#t' at school and it stuck. I would use the full name but doubt it would go down too well with the moderators. As for your opinions about doctors etc; well if you think you're para then that makes two of us as I feel pretty much the same mate. Alas I fear that the majority of them are drowning in an ocean of blind DOGMA and thus tar each and every addict they treat with the same stereotypical brush, and yes, that involves their looking down on us. Every key worker I have had has mentioned 'will power' which is total rubbish. Believe me, at the height of my madness I was spending at least a grand a week on crack and smack and seldom went to work. Don't get me wrong, I am not boasting, I was behaving like a madman and it almost killed me (I came round twice in hospital hooked up to a heart monitor and still didn't get the message). However, for anyone to fund and feed a drug habit takes more 'will power' than a room full of doctors, key workers and counsellors without a history of addiction could muster. Bottom line is, no book can tell it how it really is. Trouble is, books are all they have unless they sit up and take notice of those who have been there, which, in my humble experience, seldom happens. For instance, up until my stopping the Sub, I had to write a letter to my key worker before she took any notice of me and in the end she told me not to write any more letters. The CDAT I ended up with failed to treat me in relation to my individual circumstances, ignored any aspect of my history and, through their countless failings played a major role in my biting the bullet and going CT. I am glad for it now yet don't you or anyone else think it is a neglectful approach? I sat in my bungalow with zilch support and went through hell. All they could do is write to me and threaten to strike me off their list if I missed another apptmt.
    I am being straight up.
    My Mum, a recovering addict/alcoholic, works at a detox unit and couldn't believe the way they treated me. I could rant for another million words.
    Today Bizz, you and I and all those who are in the struggle have a chance of living our lives without all of that stigma being hung around our necks. i strongly feel that we have to stick together and make ourselves heard as clean addicts. We owe it to the next generation and those that follow them. Through us, the lives of addicts who follow in our footsteps can be understood and hopefully treated properly so that less of them die and add to the statistics which feed the dogma. What do you reckon? I am pretty passionate about it I know, it helps me stay on the right track though.
    Hope you sleep soon. It does happen, I am starting to get hours as opposed to minutes now so know it will happen for you and anyone else in the same boat.
    Take care.
    God bless
    PEACE
    DDS

     
    Old 08-11-2006, 05:36 PM   #8
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    Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    My husband is starting suboxone detox this week, he was abusing the program by taking 2 x's the dosage and the doctor will not continue to prescribe it to him. He was taking the max dosage and then just stopped for 4 days, he went into horrible withdrawals. Thats when the doc said he was going to detox him. I am now in charge of making sure he does it the right way. I am wondering what kind of side affects I should expect him to expeiriance and if he does it the way prescribed will it be bad. Also is teir anywhere I can I can get support in dealing with beeing the supporting person in his life. I owuld appreciate any feed back.

     
    Old 08-11-2006, 07:09 PM   #9
    DomyDog
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    Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    Jenny. You are not looking at an easy few weeks I am afraid. Firstly, what is the proposed regime that your doctor is going to implement, ie, for how long and what is the last dose? There is no getting away from the fact that he is gonna feel the pinch as that is the nature of opiate addiction and withdrawal. The slower the taper and smaller the last dose, the less severe the withdrawal symptoms. However, the taper shouldn't be ridiculous like a year. Secondly, how long has he been on Sub? The longer one is on Sub, the harder the WDs.
    Remember though, IT IS DOABLE. He will come out of the other side and feel a million times better about himself for having done so-guaranteed.
    The major cause of relapse during WDs, in my experience, is INSOMNIA. Try to emphasise this strongly to your doctor and, so long as you can be sure he wont get another habit for another drug, try to get him a sleep aid for a couple of weeks. I would only start taking them after the first week of WDs myself, and if I wasn't so prone to getting addicted to them.
    This is gonna be a bitter pill to swallow but I would be out of order for not saying it: be aware of the fact that if your husband isn't doing this for himself, he will probably use again. He needs support from people outside of the home. You are not enough and he could end up resenting you for forcing him to get clean if that is the case. I know that sounds pretty bad of me to say but it is invariably the case I'm afraid. If he does get and stay clean though, BOTH OF YOUR LIVES WILL IMPROVE DRAMATICALLY. THE NIGHTMARE WOULD HAVE FINISHED.
    Has he ever been to AA or NA? Have you ever been to AlAnon? They may help you both once he is well enough to go out which should be pretty soon as Sub is not as debilitating a WD as street gear. Forgive me if you have both been etc and already know much of the above but I only have the info you have posted to go on so...
    Also, try to get him to get some exercise each day as that really helps speed the WD process, even if it's a small walk around the block to start with.
    There are some drugs which help, all according to the individual. It didn't help me but I have been told that Imodium (Loperamide Hydrochloride) helps some people a lot so they are worth a try in the short term (long term NO NO as they are an opiate and therefore addictive although they don't cross the blood brain barrier so wont prolong the WDs).
    The biggest help he can get though is support when he asks for it and peace and quite when he needs it. All you can do is be there for him when he needs you. He is gonna probably hit some real low spells and could get quite angry. Remember, it is not you, only the drugs he will be craving.
    You must be strong. Keep on communicating with us. You both have my support for sure.
    Hope I have helped a little. I'm sure others will help also. Maybe it will be a good idea to open a thread yourself so others will see it for sure.
    All the best.
    God bless
    PEACE
    DDS
    PS, just read your post again. ALANON will give you loads of support. They are on the web [url]http://www.al-anonuk.org.uk/[/url] there for Uk. They are in USA and all over the world. Get in touch with them. Try not to be afraid as they will welcome you with open arms.

    Last edited by DomyDog; 08-11-2006 at 07:18 PM.

     
    Old 08-12-2006, 12:00 PM   #10
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    Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jennyannmc
    My husband is starting suboxone detox this week, he was abusing the program by taking 2 x's the dosage and the doctor will not continue to prescribe it to him. He was taking the max dosage and then just stopped for 4 days, he went into horrible withdrawals. Thats when the doc said he was going to detox him. I am now in charge of making sure he does it the right way. I am wondering what kind of side affects I should expect him to expeiriance and if he does it the way prescribed will it be bad. Also is teir anywhere I can I can get support in dealing with beeing the supporting person in his life. I owuld appreciate any feed back.
    Jenny, the best way to detox (at least what has worked for me) is to use Subutex, which unlike Suboxone, does not have Naloxone. Naloxone is used when someone overdoses in emergency rooms. It will clear the opiate receptors out of any opiates. The problem with Suboxone is that as you try to taper down and you want to cut the tablets, you can't get a proportionate amount of each medication in the tapered dose. That means your husband could go into withdrawals, which is what happened to me. With Subutex, no matter how small the dose, it's just the one medication, Buprenorphine. It's alot easier to control. Again, this is all my experience.

     
    Old 08-12-2006, 02:00 PM   #11
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    Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    just my twopennoth about willpower,by the way just down the road from you in newcastle,daughter been where you have exactly,hundreds a day on heroin and crack,up with the larks to shoplift to fund her habit,unfortunatley in my ignorance i enabled her totally and yes she had the will to do this(her saying is spot the addict by the skinny body and big legs from all the running aroun)but without the drugs she is no longer skinny,not plump but voluptuous and unhappy with it but does not have the willpower to diet,said she found it hard to say no to drugs and still will not put herself in the position of being offered them because she does not feel she has the wilpower to say no in fact states she is low on the willpower stakes altogether,14 weeks clean,has gone from 16 to 4 mg of subutex at 2mg a week and life looking better all the time,the mental cravings are the worst she said,this is a great board as usual we are way behind,been following your threads and rooting for you,sadmum

     
    Old 08-12-2006, 03:30 PM   #12
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    Re: My hell withSubutex (Buprenorphine)

    Domydog,

    wow, 8mg? im suprised you didnt get admitted to hospital!!

    i am shocked at the treatment you recieved from your local drug agencys but to be honest i am not suprised, until recently my local agency was just as bad and more often than not if you were ten minutes late for your appointment you were 'not motivated enough' and dismissed from treatment this did happen to me a number of years ago and i was on 4 mg and that was bad enough, but at the time i really had no intention of staying clean and was back at my dealers house within hours of being dropped.

    BUT....
    This time i did complete the course and although i have a few rough days ahead i know i have done the right thing, I am pleased to hear how well you are doing despite the tremendous shock your body must have gone through and its all i can do to not stand up and clap right now, well done mate cos im not sure i could have done that!!

    James

     
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