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norco18 05-03-2008 06:09 PM

Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
Please advise: I've been clean from going cold turkey from sub for two weeks now, 14 days exactly. I feel WORSE, mind and body, than I EVER did before. I am still really hurting physically but I guess I deserve that for being an addict in the first place, but why the depression? I can't muster the energy to even get out of bed, thank god for laptop computers. I am sleeping about 18-19 hours a day and don't want to do anything. I can't eat and when I force myself, it just comes right back up. My kids and husband are sick of it and husband said yesterday he liked me better ON the sub and if this is the "real me" then he is not sure it's going to work. What can I do? Please, someone, some advice? I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

jponline 05-03-2008 07:05 PM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
Of course you're depressed, you have just lost your best friend, this is common with addiction, I am no expert just a mum who has wittnessed her daughter go through this time and time again. Really make an effort and go for a walk, what a lovely time of year to walk, just try it and see how you feel, I will not go into the mechanics of endorphins and feel good factors, but 2 weeks is such a short time to feel better, and anyway I think you should give yourself a big pat on the back for 2 weeks recovery, Well Done.

cakesluvscheeks 05-03-2008 07:13 PM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
Norco, Good evening. I don't usually respond because I myself am new to being sober. But I see no one else has responded, so I'll give this my best shot. The first thing I'd suggest is trying everything you can to get up and get moving...I did the same thing..lying in bed..Whengot up and moving my energy came back to me. It wasn't fast but it came back. Everyday I did a little bit more. Mind you I struggled but I kept thinking..if I don't move myself..who praytell will move me? Congrats on being sober. 14 days is HUGE. I'm so happy for you. Was your Doc aware that you were quitting cold turkey? As I've been reading they seem to taper off the Subs. I was only on them to detox, so I don't have much experience with that. Look around on the different posts and gather all the info and support you can. From what I've read it takes about 10 -14 days to come off the Subs. So just take it as it comes,don't let anything stand in your way,and you'll pull through. I have faith in you. As for your hubby..perhaps he could go into the family board here and read some of the posts there. He could pose some questions and I'm sure he'll get some good answers. I guess for me the most important thing was staying positive. I wouldn't listen to anyone that had negative things to say. You're in control remember that. And you CAN do this. Stay strong.

Peace Love and Skittles
Have a Grateful Day !

DroopyEyes 05-03-2008 08:04 PM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
OMG, we were on the same drug and have about the same sobriety length. I didn't use Sub, I tapered. today I called my doctor (who is no longer - she went on to more nobler things like community health clinics) and basically broke down in tears. the crappy part is...she can't prescribe anything for me (she had me on Wellbuterin and Ativan, with enough to get me through the next few months) to change the medication because she's technically not my doc.

For the last week, I got through work ok because it's very factory- like repetitious and made me feel good actually. But I have noticed I don't want to go anywhere for lunch. I just want to crawl under the desk and die for an hour.

Today my poor wife tried to get me to go to dinner/movies with kids and I just helplessly looked at her and said, "I just can't..." I ended up calling a fellow Vet who I knew would understand. I just got get through it. i'm trying to stay busy and did weed whack our yard. I'm trying. I'm just so depressed, though.

Doc did theorize that the narcotics may have been masking a different issue, so she's glad I'm going to the EAP therapist, who is very focused on the death of my mother and loss of my doctor. I'm tired, I'm going to bed.

But I'm thinking of you --- you're not alone.

norco18 05-04-2008 01:56 PM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
Thanks Droopy, but I FEEL all alone. I tried getting up to go downstairs and do the laundry and fainted, luckily I was on the last step and didn't fall too far. I had to beg them not to take me to the dr, that I am fine. I've lost 10 pounds in two weeks, which isn't good since I wasn't very "healthy' to begin with. I guess I just don't understand why the sub made me feel so normal, so alive, so energetic. I played baseball with the kids, I ran around, I got stuff done and I felt better than I ever had. Healthy, normal, alive. And now? I just want to crawl in a hole and go to sleep forever. This isn't right. What's wrong with me? Every one writes that being "clean" is wonderful and feels so much better, but if this is "better" I don't want it. My body isn't better and my mind isn't either. Yes, it's better than when I was taking too many norcos, but it isn't better than the sub. At least I had energy then. I'm not going to take it, because some part of mind brain knows I can't take it forever and I sure as hell don't want to feel better then have it ripped out from under me again, like it has been. Or rather, yeah, I know, I ripped it out from myself.

I don't even know who I am anymore. Maybe I never knew. I was so sick for so long (epilepsy, lupus, then liver failure - hereditary) and took so many different meds that I didn't know where the pain ended and the medicine began. THen, I was assaulted and hurt (coma for a week, then rehab to learn things again, like walking) and the meds became a good medicine not just for body but for numbing the memories of that night. I knew i was hooked on the meds for reasons besides physical, so I asked the pain management doc to help me and he started me on the sub. I felt so great and amazing, I thought it was a miracle, that I was "back" and then when I went off the sub, to realize that wasn't me, it was just the medicine? Just a different medicine? That the "real me" is this depressed, lifeless useless person? what's the point then? I know I am ranting and thanks for listening. I feel like I am a ghost typing the words HELP into this computer, begging someone to listen and knowing in my heart no one cares. Oh well. Back to sleep. at least it's quiet there.

DroopyEyes 05-04-2008 04:24 PM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
friend, today was even worse. I got up after sleeping well, got the boys up and took them to church. wife stayed home. She's not much into it. I want the boys to have some kind of religion until they are old enough to decide for themselves.

I hadn't been to church since my dad died in 2007 and it felt GOOD and right.

I get home and wife tells me that Wife 1 had called to report that a roof shingle had ripped off and now there's a water stain above the main bathroom. that ws IT.

I almost started having a FIT...helpless, depressed, anxious...etc...crying uncontrollably. wife held up hand STOP and I was really po'd that she wouldn't just let me get it out the way i want.

I went outside to call my sister. she listened and said she agreed with my wife --- maybe I need to "go somewhere" for a week and get some intensive therapy treatment. I got very sad and scared about that. I kicked the Norco, why (like you said) aren't I feeling better several weeks later?

I called the ex and asked her to take the boys for the remainder of the weekend, as I just felt like I was having panic attacks....we have a good relationship so she said yes but she was worried about me.

My older boy, the intense one asked me if I was ok, and hugged me. I told him that sometimes grownups get said...just like he did before medication...

I'm trying to balance my checkbook and get the house back in order since I've let everything go last week while I got to work and then crash at 730pm.

I don't want to go anywhere for treatment. Treatment for what?

you're not alone.

mk7657 05-04-2008 04:40 PM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE

Almost every one of us on this board has had to survive the HELL of withdrawal. Alone with your demons you are, and always will be, but not alone in experiencing the agony of detox. That is why you will find an understanding and insightful group here. Keep posting and get it out.

Knowledge is power, right? Research PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome), and know that the depression and lethargy will, most likely, come to an end (it did with me). A lot of it depends on how long you were on drugs. I know some good folks that have been on narcotics for so long, they don't remember the Joy that can be had with sobriety.

My DOC of choice, BTW, is Norco. I swear that it was harder coming off of that drug than it was to quit smoking. I will never forget. During peak withdrawals, I sat under the covers in my bed in the middle of the night, shaking, sweating, gagging with dry heaves, willing to sell my soul for my fix. I couldn't walk a straight line for three weeks. Total weight loss was about 25lbs.

Hang in there. You CAN do this. When my doctor told me it was going to be a rocky road, I felt like he didn't understand. Later on, during my recovery, we talked and he said that he really doesn't understand. His knowledge of addiction comes from the medical point-of-view. I'm lucky that my wife didn't leave me because she couldn't feel my pain and know that detox does end.


I have enjoyed reading your posts. I have a great admiration for any person that served or is actively surving in the US military...


norco18 05-05-2008 04:41 AM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
Ok, I researched PAWS and now am even more depressed. What I read said that these symptoms can last for years! That doesn't sound like fun. One website said something to the effect that "people think that clean living should feel better, but it doesn't and most people go back to using." yeah, encouragement at 3 am.

I know, I'm sarcastic. That's just me. Too damn smart for my own good is what everyone always said. Whatever that was supposed to mean. Not very smart to get hooked on the pills though.

I know, from what I've read here, that people tend to use because of demons in their past - or present - or because they can't cope with something. I guess that was me. I started to deal with a genuine medical problem, then kept at it because it numbed some nasty memories.

Did you guys have nightmares? Droopy, are you having nightmares? I can't stop dreaming about certain things, which is why I used in the first place. How do I get rid of THAT? And, Droopy, I am sorry your wife isn't understanding. My husband doesn't get it either. He doesn't understand why I can't "put the assault behind me" and "get over it" and he certainly doesn't understand why I ever used in the first place. Or had a problem with it. He's strong. I'm not.

Then, of course, I get rude and think, "Hey, buddy, you weren't the one raped, beaten, choked and left for dead" but that's not fair because I just have to think he's had to deal with it too, in some form or another.

I hope your day is better and your week, too. My husband is going out of town, which isn't good because I always get so stressed, frustrated and WEAK when he isn't around to intimidate me. Wish me luck.

norco18 05-05-2008 04:45 AM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE

I am sorry about your dad, too. My dad passed away about two months before my assault and I remember the very first thing i thought, when I came out of the coma and HAD a conscious thought was, "I want my daddy" and I am a grown woman. I've missed him every single day since he's died. He was career military and passed away from an aggressive form of cancer the government said was caused by Agent Orange in Vietnam. They are giving my mom "compensation" for that now. She's so happy to have that and not him.

See, told you I was sarcastic.

Have a good, better, day.

DroopyEyes 05-05-2008 05:12 AM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
Mike and Junior (NorcoJR, that's your nickname to me, haha)

It's 652am and I'll using my 2nd DOC which is Ryan's Hope reruns from 1977. God bless DVRs and a wife who sleeps til I'm done watching. I never thought I would give a rip about soaps but when I was on active duty in cuba, we would sit around watching Days of our Lives at lunchtime instead of going for chow.

Betty Buckley is playing an extra trying to seduce Frank Ryan while he's in the Dominican Republic, to get the divorce from Delia, who wants to now marry his brother Pat, and Frank plans to then marry Jill, who is carrying Dr Seneca Beaulac's baby.

See? What red blooded straight man wouldn't fall for this?

Mike -- thank you for your appreciation for my posts and also my service. I'm in the inactive reserve now, the "you've done your time, now you're waiting for retirement to kick in" Navy. I know some of my depression is related to not being in the "real" Navy anymore. The good thing is, I stay involved. I do classes ad hoc at the reserve center, and enjoy seeing 50 22 year olds looking up at the Old guy twice their age. I tell it like it is. I'm a good speaker. (Now's the time to build myself up, right?!) There is definitely a mentor in my and it is a huge part of what frustrates me at work, even as a new person. My boss can not deal with my doing anything except exactly what she says. We have new(er) people come in every week and they look for that friendly face who will point out the quirks of the copier, or the 10 "time sheets" we have to fill out for the state, and the feds and K, my supervisor, can not deal with it/me. She sent me this nasty gram last Friday that I printed and brought home to show my wife that I wasn't imagining things.

since I have become clean, work has become somewhat of a refuge from this increasing depression. I go outside at lunchtime, whether to drive 10 mins each way (thank gosh I have a hybrid these days) to swim 20 laps and be flirted by the lifeguard....or just walk a couple laps around the block.

I'm a White man, and one source of joy for me is having so many Black female friends at work (and now, outside work.) I hope all who read this read joy and happiness in this part of my post. I am a rarity at work (a male, and a white one at that) and 95% of my co-workers are Black women. They mother me and laugh at my jokes and 2 weeks ago when my mental crap hit the fan, one of the ones I know the least came up to me and said, "Baby, your sistahs are worried about you. Here's the number for EAP. Call them RIGHT now and don't let that (expletive supervisor) tell you that you can't go to your first visit on the (name of employment)'s time."

I was raised to judge by the content of character - thank God I had the dad I did who was colorblind, literally and figuratively and I grew up with all kinds of people and learned to give people a chance to be trusted cause only get 1 chance to lose someone's trust and vice versa.

Just in the last week, my moods have really work that is...because I'm diong something I actually like, which is that factory mentality paper pushing. I deal with psycho boss but have a good mentor - she's one of those lifers who smoke that I get along with (I don't smoke but I always hung out with them in the Navy because you get the best dirt that way and usually 99% true, haha.)

This past weekend was rough, perhaps because I am putting on an act at work. Not that I'm being fake per se, but rather I have to hold it together for 8.5 hours. At home, I don't have to and it's much easier to just let it all out. My wife and I rarely fight because our communication lines are so good -I learned a lot the first time I was married but yesterday I was a flipping basket case. I came out (as in addiction) to my 2 sisters over the weekend. 1 listened and the other said, "let me be blunt. I agree with wife in that you need some steady professional care because this has been going on long enough."

It stung a little because my 6 siblings and I are like the little Kennedys (we call our family that - the Poor Kennedys -- none of the money, all the kids, half the drama.) and we're all in each other's corner. Even with our (always trying to ) recover oldest brother the alcoholic. So I think my sister is trying to tell me get some help now and not waste 25 years of my life like my brother has.

Jr --- your tragic circumstances ---- when I read what you've been through I thought how my current EAP therapist keeps coming back to how I felt when my mother died when I was 4. Lots of people post here how we become addicted to hide from other things. My uneducated advice to you is...tell your husband that you feel safe with him physically and each day can be better for both of you regarding your horrible attack, but it will take time.

My wife is who you've all read. She is amazing. I think yesterday I went from O-50 thinking of having to buy my ex-wife (who is also a good person) a new roof. I can never get out from under the money woes which I used to think was why I popped pills, to numb the constant money worries. Maybe it's part but I'm thinking there's more going on and I'm committed to finding out.

Gosh it's late but man I want to finish watching the 2nd ryan's hope since Roger is scheming with Seneca for status on Jill!

I hope all reading this particular post:
a. forgive the ramblingly length of it
b. read up on PAWS as i will today, too
c. tell those who have stuck by us THANKS.

Droopy the Vanilla Ice of His Job!

SpinalMalady 05-05-2008 06:13 AM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE

I'm so sorry you are going through all of this. Is therapy something that is an option for you? Perhaps you and hubbs can join in together?? Some folks don't like the idea of therapy, but with all that you have been through, it seems that IMHO, you really need some help with some coping skills.

Though I'm not an addict, and it seems very easy for me to say, I live the other side of the addict life, having lost one brother to alcohol, and having a 2nd very near deaths door. Both were/are stubborn as heck when it comes to the therapy issue. My family has undergone counseling till we're blue in the face. I've recently set up some new sessions due to the issues I'm facing with my current brother that won't put the bottle down, and just doesn't care. I'm angry as hell at him, and where it's going to lead him. It's almost as if he HAS a death wish.

I know you want to be healthy, but to be healthy completly, includes not only the body, but the mind as well. As I said, (and I'm sure you well know, because you live it every day!) you've been through some major trauma in your life, and therapy could help you on a path to becoming healthy again in both mind and body.

Perhaps the hubbs will embark with you on a path to bringing your old self back with the help of an excellent counselor. Some folks don't even want to talk about Counseling, and/or their significant other want to have nothing to do with this (IMHO) important part of the recovery process.

Just some food for thought. You may already be in counseling, I don't know, and I hope I haven't overstepped my bounds. I just really feel for you, and wanted to make the suggestion. I hope I haven't offended you by doing so.

I will keep you in my thoughts, as well as your family. Believe me, I know where you are coming from, at least in the perspective of being someone who has lost my best friend in the not too distant past due to drugs, and watched her slip away. She wouldn't let anyone "in", and it's very hard from the outside looking in. Communicate with your hubbs.

You are doing a [B]WONDERFUL [/B]job in your soberity, no matter how much it sucks. It WILL get better, it just takes some time to "re-wire" the brain to get used to life without all those chemicals. Keep the chin up, remember where you've come from, and keep those goals you have lined out. You [B]WILL [/B]get there. It might not be on the schedule you had hoped for, and it might not be the easiest ride, but you have great strength and you [B]CAN [/B]do this.

Much luck, take care.

mk7657 05-05-2008 09:36 AM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
Norco. I had terrible nightmares, some so intense and real that I would wake with a start and seemed to be having a mild seizure. I believe this symptom is the mind rewiring itself. Some nights, I would be half-awake and half-asleep and felt paralyzed. It was terrifying. All of these symptoms went away in time. And, guess what happened when I relapsed? The same symptoms in reverse; this time the drug seemed to be the cause. Is that weird or what? When I quit using coke and methamphetamine 20 or so years ago, I vicariously did the drug in my dreams for years. I would wait for euphoria, and nothing would happen. You know how dreams are: the dope would turn into candy or something weird like that.

It's strange that your research led you to find that PAWS can linger for years. I've read it is a year and a half, at most. However, there probably is some debate going on since scientists can only theorize what goes on in that mass of gray matter in our heads. It is as mysterious as the universe--a wonderous miracle of creation, in my humble mind.

Droopy. With your good mind and speaking skills, I can see you on the podium for an NA meeting some day. Wouldn't that be cool? Additionally, isn't it weird that these drugs can bring a disciplined military man like yourself to his knees? I have been told that I am a strong person, but this addiction knocked me on my butt.

There is a military base in Klamath Falls, Oregon. Military jets buzz the sky daily in that city. Itís fun to watch them do their training runs. Occasionally, in Medford, they will stop at the airport, which is only a mile from the house, on their way to Klamath Falls from who knows where. They fly low over the suburbs before blasting off to Klamath. We can hear them coming and run outside to see. Sometimes, they will shoot straight up into the sky with a roar, disappearing into the distance in seconds--great stuff.

Good luck you guys. Stay strong.


kellibear 05-05-2008 11:07 AM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
[QUOTE=norco18;3556000]Please advise: I've been clean from going cold turkey from sub for two weeks now, 14 days exactly. I feel WORSE, mind and body, than I EVER did before. I am still really hurting physically but I guess I deserve that for being an addict in the first place, but why the depression? I can't muster the energy to even get out of bed, thank god for laptop computers. I am sleeping about 18-19 hours a day and don't want to do anything. I can't eat and when I force myself, it just comes right back up. My kids and husband are sick of it and husband said yesterday he liked me better ON the sub and if this is the "real me" then he is not sure it's going to work. What can I do? Please, someone, some advice? I would really appreciate it. Thanks.[/QUOTE]
you should consider low dose naltrexone, LDN causes our brains to produce natural endorphins 300% faster than normal, and can greatly help paws and depression. you have to have all opiates out of your system before beginning, and you have to get it from a compounding pharmacy because it comes in 50mg tabs--and that is too much, the best dose is 3--4.5mg once a day at bedtime--it's worth a try!!

DroopyEyes 05-10-2008 08:05 AM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
just a quick post because I have charge of the rug rats today, which includes Mr Mom taking them to a (rolled eyes) skating party for 3 hours this afternoon.

This week was awful. I didn't get to see my therapist or go to a meeting. I feel like the Wellbuterin and the Ativan aren't helping. I get to work and burst into tears. And then try to hide my sinking moods for the rest of the day.

I'm in the "mentoring" phase of my job where I have a seasoned agent sitting with me half-days. She's kind of the rough-edged straight talker. She and a co-worker know what is going on re being off the opiates.

My supervisor is an emotional roller-coaster. It seems like she and I switch weeks, who is going to be the more teeter-totter. Yesterday I started losing it over her picking on my TO DO list. I actually said quietly,"You won't have to worry too much more about my To Do Lists," and it slipped out of my mouth. She asked what I meant and I just said that I would someday do everything just right and it just takes time.

Between you and me, I took it about 3 different ways.

She took me into her office and in that delightfully tactless way, basically told me the stress was only going to get worse and she was concerned about my handling things emotionally. I can't tell her what's going on, because admitting a drug addiction yields the same result as popping positive on a drug test. Buh-Bye. She knows I'm using EAP and seeing someone.

I can't deal with these highs and lows (mostly lows). I am exercising and trying to stay busy. But I can not stop the tears.

I know someone said this and I'll agree with them, knowing you more clean/sobers will chime in: I felt better on the Norco.

I came home and told the wife and I said, "I'd rather go back to my old business (I had a housecleaning business which ruined my back) and give my 2 week's notice." Wife said, Send postcards out to your former clients and tell them you're looking to see if there's any business back out there...while you look for something else," and if there's enough to sustain...give your 2 week's notice.

The thing is....I like helping the people (public) that I do. I'm just so sick of fighting with the bureacracy and "No, don't say it like THAT"....I gotta get out of there but I've never been a quitter.

I just love being a crying 44 year old who tries to put on a good front for the kids and wife.

mk7657 05-10-2008 01:15 PM

Re: Clean but Depressed PLEASE ADVISE
It is good to see that you posted, droopy. I'm a little worried about norco? Not posting could be good or bad. Posting tells those of us who care how one is doing.

Time is what you need friend. Don't go back to using. You'll be glad, someday, that you made this decision. PAWS lasted about four months for me. That is not too bad since it took a few years for me to get as far into the woods as I was.


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