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Banker
01-29-2004, 11:40 AM
I was just wondering why people are so against Suboxone... Chef, you inparticular. Everytime someone new gets on it and seems to be doing great, you post them and say that they will have withdrawals and they should get off of it soon after they start. I know when I started it, I received wonderful support from people here but then you and some other people sort of rained on my parade. I don't understand why you think that people should get off of it so quickly if it helps them stay off of lortabs and other pills that they used to abuse? I know about the withdrawals and I know they will be bad but why can't I worry about that when the time comes? I think we should be happy for people when they take the plunge and get on Suboxone since it does help so many people from killing themselves with pills. What if Happy Father would have started it.... I wonder where he would be now. I doubt he would be worried about the wds when he gets off of it. Like myself, I'm just so thankful that I'm not killing myself with pills, why can't you be happy for the people that get on it? I know you realize that there are two types of addicts.... the first type is the one that can stop taking pills through NA/AA or another sort of program and the other type is one who cannot stop taking pills and ends up dead. Why can't there be a third type who manage the addiction with Suboxone and methadone? You are one of those people and I believe that you are happy so why can't you be happy for others? In addition, if you were on the Suboxone prior to your marriage ending and you losing everything you had, wouldn't you be happy that you found something like Suboxone? I just don't understand. It can be discouraging for people who start to take it and then you say... it's not a miracle drug... you will suffer eventually. I just don't understand. I hope you don't get too mad at me, It just concerns me. I think we should be supportive and happy for anyone that takes steps to not end up like Happy Father. Don't you?

chefob1
01-29-2004, 01:05 PM
whats up with pick on chef day?...i wrote out this long speel and lost it cause i had to sign off, so ill write a short one...i never bashed suboxone other than if a individual asked about it,i told them my side of the story....go back and read their posts...if they ask im gonna tell them the truth...why should i sugar coat the facts about suboxone...bottom line...its a opiate and its swappin the hydros or whatever for it..hey,im on methadone,remember?i switched over from the bupenorphine because it only has so much pain mgmt. abilitiy...i was on bupenorphine for four years...strictly,maintance....if a poster asks questions about it, ive only told the truth...do you beleive its a miracle drug?how has suboxone cured you?didnt cure me....everyone ive met on this board usin it stated w/d's were bad...i didnt state it,they did....if you ask me , ill tell you they were bad too...if a poster asks me,ill tell them that too....im sorry that i show the other side of the coin...look,im on methadone for maintance and chronic pain and you take suboxone for maintance...im not against it...someone asks me if it is a miracle drug,i say no...its a substitute for sobriety...same as me on the meth...if it keeps them aqway from taking pills great....but they still have to deal with their addiction,dont they....i never told anybody that as soon as they get on it to get off it..thats stupid...why go from one addiction to another?...suboxone is a opiate just like any other opiate...if opiates your drug of choice,sure your going to like suboxone....sure its going to make you feel good...alot of these folks dont know that suboxone is a another opiate...and theve heard that there will be no w/d's when it comes time to get off it....i only speak the truth and know that i have a disease like other folks around here....and im dealing with my demons like everyone else....and if someone wants to know my opinion or my experience with the stuff,im not going to sugar coat reality....and as far as happy father goes,i remember him and i conversed about it in the past...id have to go back and read my posts but i dont think he didnt start taking suboxone cause of me and i dont care for the reference.....we are all addicts here looking for some form of recovery and i am not one to judge....but i will tell the truth,at least as i see it...its not meant to offend,but to edify....gain knowledge...whether good or bad...and it didnt save my marriage....i was on bupenorphine for three years into my marriage...and that is irrelevant to what the medication is,what it does, and how it works for others.....i never stated i was not happy for people to take suboxone or tried to discourage them from taking it...they asked a question and i informed them to the best of my knowledge....and if someone asks again,i will tell them how i feel,negative or not...there are two sides to all issues and i was answering one side...im not trying to tell anyone what to do...i inform them on what may happen cause i took the med also....alot longer than anyone on this board...but that doesnt make me an expert on it....it just means that i am an addict also trying to recover......chef

LaynesADDICTI0N
01-29-2004, 02:05 PM
"Zyprexa" was a miracle drug for me too back in 97 when it first came out, i was one of the first ones on it. Now 500 people are dead and 800 people are dying and im living in hell from it. I was also one of the first ones on suboxone and when people on this board were saying, what is this new drug suboxone? I was already on it! I got banned for making a hyperlink actually. I remeber buprenex also, and chef was one of the first ones to even try buprenorphine period. No one knocks the drug here, it's a brand new drug and you people are being STUDIED! In 5 years when you have complications, are you going to come back and apologize to chef for telling people about his bad experience with it? we're all here helping each other, if you feel a little edgy that's fine, but no one is trying to stunt your recovery.

LiLa's Mom
01-29-2004, 03:04 PM
All I can say is thank goodness that my daughter has found suboxone. I feel that it has saved my daughter's life. She is functioning and living a good life. She is able to work and go to school full time. When using, she couldn't do a damn thing and last relapse before she went on suboxone, I had a feeling that she wouldn't be living much longer. I don't think suboxone is a miracle, because if there were miracles, my daughter wouldn't have an addiction at all, and wouldn't have to use suboxone, which is an opiate. But since she has this addiction, and the only thing keeping her sober is suboxone, if she needs to stay on it for years or the rest of her life, so be it. She would love to remain sober without any pills, and maybe down the road, she will be weened off the suboxone and lead a life without pills of any kind. As far as withdrawals go on the suboxone, she will have to deal with those when, and if, she ever gets off. But why would she want to get off something that is working when everything else failed? I can't believe the different in her now, and that might be the miracle. She is happy and smiling, and I haven't seen that in years. And I don't care how old she is, she is will always be my baby.

spark-o-cet
01-29-2004, 03:31 PM
im like chef in that while it may have seemed like i downed suboxone all i was doin was tellin how it was while i was on the sub.im all for sub and i wish i had followed the program like i was supposed to but i didnt but i have finally been clean now goin on four weeks and i feel better and better each day.the cravins are killer but so far have been able to ignore them but it is hard.sub is good and i havent seen anyone here really puttin it down as long as i have been here.-spark

chefob1
01-29-2004, 04:09 PM
sparkster...once again,im proud of ya dude...now you are sayin its been 4 weeks...you chump...you broke any of my records and man o man...i am proud of you..its been four weeks and besides the cravins are ya doing alright...are ya hittin any a/a or n/a mtgs...you know, its good to try to surround yourself with anybody/somebody whos in recovery or is recovered and been sober for a long time.....this comin sunday at my a/a mtg. im going to ask this 58 year old guy to be my sponsor....he was a alcholic/addict so he can offer both sides of the spectrum and hes been sober since 85....i need someone older and lots of years experience to help me out....its a real brainwashin i need....about this topic...i think you know how i feel...shoot, ive done every drug except that kgb stuff and even shot drugs...im not against subox or people tryin to get help.... id recommend subox to the individuals i think it would help...i wouldnt recommend it to someone whos been on opiates for only six months though...common sense applications....someone who has tried recovery lotsa of times but always failed.....same with the methadone...shott, back in 1984 i got addicted to snortin heroin.....i was usin for about a year...instead of c/t i did the clinic methadone thing...after six months of that i asked for a ten day detox and was on 21 mg of meth...there were more drugs at the clinic,i used for the first time placacadyls,whatever, and a bunch of pharmos that i had never used before...i wanted out of that scene...after ten days of droppin 2mg a day i had severe w/d's...didnt sleep for 11 days strait before i got 2 hrs of sleep...swore id never use meth again...my doc told me thats the problem with methadone....nobody detoxs right off of it and then they bad mouth it...detox should be extremely slow,same as suboxone......i love to edify a chronic addict and inform them cause maybe they dont know what i do and they can pursue a different avenue...i wished i had talked to a addict who would help me like i have offered help to others....will finish this later...good job on your 4 weeks and keep it up and keep in touch....chef

Twinlynn
01-29-2004, 04:40 PM
Hmmm.....now I'm very confused. I know I can go to a medical/chemical website and check out just how Suboxone works in the brain, etc....but, first, I'd rather ask those of you who know. WHY would a doctor take you off an opiate, so that he could put you on another opiate?? Is it merely that the Suboxone opiate is less damaging than the hydro opiate?? What's the point? When I read posts like Bankers, I feel such relief that there is something that may help me after years of low-level--but steady--pill taking. Why would they make a drug, i.e. Suboxone, if all it does is make you FEEL like you're off opiates? When all that's happened is that you've just exchanged one for another?? I'd really like to understand this. Banker sounds as if she's at the point that I would like to be!! Surely, it must be better to be on Suboxone than Hydros??

Thanks for any info any of you can offer. I may sign on-line again later just so I can go to bed with some "closure" on this issue! :-)

Banker
01-29-2004, 05:40 PM
You made your points well. I just know that my own experience was that I felt as hopeless as I possibly could. I felt that my life was over when I realized I absolutely could not get off of lortabs. I contemplated suicide knowing that I did not want to be a drugged up mother to my children and did not want them watching me slowly kill myself like I had to with my mother. I knew I could not stop taking the pills!!! I had no idea about Suboxone until I went to the doc and he told me about it. It was the only hope I had at that point. I have been on it for two months and it literally has saved my life. I don't think about pills at all anymore... ever! I'm taking between 10 and 12 mgs per day and I absolutely get no high from it at all, as you know. So why would you make that comment about it being an opiate and of course you feel good? I believe there are people that have tried it and it didn't work for them... they still wanted pills. Even though it's an opiate, it does not give you a high and you know this. I feel normal... I feel like I did prior to my addiction. I guess that's the biggest part of it, I can actually feel again. I also thought that most people knew it was an opiate so to me, it just sounded like you were saying they were trading one thing for another and to me, that is simply false. Taking 10 mgs of suboxone per day is NOTHING like taking 20 - 30 lortabs per day. You know this. I am no longer killing myself... Am I dependant upon it? Absolutely, but I'm getting it legally, I'm not spending thousands of dollars to get it, I'm not killing myself and my liver, I'm not ruining my relationships, I'm not losing my children over it, I'm not losing my job over it, I'm not dealing with drug dealers and risking getting arrested. There are so many other benefits I have found. So, you tell me, which alternative sounds better, Suboxone or continuing to relapse and taking hydros and percocets? It has been a wonder drug for me and I just wish that other people didn't have to suffer and actually die from abusing pills when suboxone can help them. That's all I'm saying... And if it was so bad, why did you stay on it for four years? I promise I'm not attacking you and I apologize if it sounds like I am, I just know how excited I was when I first got on it and how I felt normal again and I never, ever thought that I could feel normal again. And other people post either with that same excitement or the hope that Suboxone will work for them and it just seems like you try to discourage them. Again, I'm really sorry if I've overstepped my boundaries... I know it has saved my life and I wish it could save a few more, that's all I'm trying to communicate.

John 808
01-29-2004, 05:49 PM
Haven't posted much but had to chime in on this one...you are trading one opiate addiction for another, but with the sub, you are not abusing your liver and kidneys with the tylenol. You can delve further into the moral issues... that one is no longer lying to doctors to obtain scripts, lying to family members, putting themselves in an akward postition if they are odering from online OP's, etc.

I was on the subutex for several weeks...I never seemed to be as satisfied as others because I craved all the time. Enough so, that I stopped the sub and went back to hydro's. Eventually, I went back to the sub and tapered off quickly as I researched more about it and my husband had a very long talk with my addictionalogist. I also contacted the FDA regarding the sub. All of this led to one conclusion...this is a new drug, we, who are on it now, are basically "lab rats" right now as clinical research is still being performed and evaluated and it was originally created to be used for lifetime maintenance (what the FDA told me). Withdrawals are inevitable when coming off the sub. My withdrawals were horrible- am still struggling every day!

I am like Chef- not trying to discourage anyone...just giving my experience. If someone is happy with being on the sub and even feels they may need it for lifetime maintenance, then so be it. I just never intended to use it that way.

It makes me a little nervous that there is still so much UNKNOWN about this drug...what is it going to do to my brain receptors in the long run?? Why can't anyone (doctors, FDA) really tell us anything concrete...even my doctor told my husband, "I'll be honest, it is new and not alot is known about it...it is kind-of trial and error." That unnerved me! Plus, my doctor had problems with other medications I was taking while on the sub and that bothered me as well.

It is for some and it is not for some. One has to decide for themselves what is best for them!

Good luck to everyone who is trying to make this decision,
Michelle

Banker
01-29-2004, 06:07 PM
Michelle - I think you put that very well. Thank you for your input. How ARE you doing? How are you hanging in there? Please let me know... I worry about you.


Spark - I'm VERY proud of you for making it this far. See... I knew you could do it. I told you before that you were bound and determined to get off of everything and you've done it. Let me ask you, how do you fight the cravings? Do you go to meetings or what? Let me know and keep it up! Remember, one day or one hour at a time, if necessary!!!!! Are you still with your girlfriend? I know she is SO happy for you!

chefob1
01-29-2004, 06:15 PM
this is only my opinion on the subject....why do they make this drug?...suboxone was made initially in europe...it was actually called buprenex,which by the way,is the drug i was on for 4 years...it is the parental drug of subutex/suboxone...so people would not have to inject it like i did...the drugs medical name is bupenorphine...it was used to initially treat pain but they found it works good to help addicts and depression...how does it help addicts?...it is a low abuse level opiate...same as a diahrea opiate called lomotil...when consumed it has a ceiling effect meaning after you take a certain quantity nothing happens to you medically..its effect only go so high...if i had pain and took an ampule of buprenex and then took another,i would be wasting the second one,the first wil only do so much for my pain...so it does good for a addict who tries to consume x amount....it controls the w/d symptoms and has some positve side effects for opiate abusers,ie..depression,anxiety,ect...the govt lobbed it in with the principal behind methadone...as a method of maintance until the individual can be stabilized on it and then be treated emotionally/physocologically to understand their addiction problem and deal with it....technically,i guess from what my doc says and he is a recovering addict,that addicts will take the med and then slowly detox from it and become sober,by using principals such as a/a or n/a...by stem the physco part of it by disassociating with addicts and work on a recovery program of some sorts...lets say they never made suboxone...would you be on methadone......or maybe you could take dilaudid and it would do the same thing....i was addicted to lortabs...50 a day,my tolerance level...i started the bupenorphine program...did not need to take the lortabs cause the bupe took away my w/d's....i still had to go get a script and go buy them.....i didnt have to go to the ghetto...whats better...goin to the ghetto or to the doc...naturally to the doc....withdrew myself from that enviroment to surround myself with recovering addicts and listen to the message of sobriety...now im supposed to learn from the message and work myself to free me from the maintance drug...im on methadone but i dont go to a clinic...im fortunate...my doc writes me the script...docs can write scripts for methadone...im on it for maintance but i also have a back pain issue...is it better to be on suboxone than hydros...i say yes..no acephetamin..liver problems...my doc says 1000mgs is harmful...however the suboxone is a opiate so it has the side effects...withdrawing from it brings the same consequences as withdrawing from hydros...diahrea,insommnia,restless leg syndrome,ect.....but it is a way to treat hard core opiate addiction...it helps the same as methadone...controlled addiction by our society...the govt has set guiedelines to follow...you dont have to go to a clinic though like many methadone clinics...it is A LONG ACTING OPIATEalso...some folks can take it every other day...methadone has to be taken every day....some folks will be on meth for the rest of their lives and some will now be on suboxone...they(medical society) doesnt want you to be on meds the rest of your life...it is supposed to be a short term thing till we see the negative side of opiate abuse and get sober.....now to be totally honest with you...after a long time/years of pill abuse why do you think this is going to help you?sure your not taking your hydros anymore,but you are taking opiates and if you were to stop you will feel the same anguish as if you stopped taking the hydros...im not a anti subox supporter..shoot,im on 60mg of methadone....but if i stop taking the meth tomorrow im gonna be sick...and if you stop the subox youll be sick...so what are we doing?prolonging the inevitable?why do we take opiates?i take them cause of pain first and then because im addicted to opiates..it is most likely at this stage of my life why i take methadone...so i wont withdraw and be sick for weeks...and deal with my paqin...if i had no pain why would i need the opiates?..cause id be sick for weeks from the w/d's and i dont want to deal with that now...hence im an addict...now if i cant control my addiction thats the first step to recovery...knowing it controls me....why do you take the suboxone?...to stave off w/d's?...euphoria?...subox is good cause as your usage goes you dont feel euphoria after awhile...you feel normal...but your not....your taking a chemical to feel normal....thats what addictions all about with opiates....so how do you deal with your addiction...if you want it to stop you go to a doc,he puts you on subox...you start to edify yourself about addiction...and your supposed to quit...an alcholic has to quit to be sober...there is no other drink he can switch too....if you want to be sober,you quit also...as addicts we find the easy way out..a new drug..ec t...but in the end if you think about it...methadone/suboxone are drugs...its a moral/ethical issue also...i dont claim to be right...im only a human with a disease also...but i feel like im in recovery..certainly not drug free but i will be...itll take a long time because of the drug im on now...its a great topic for conversation also......chef

chefob1
01-29-2004, 06:32 PM
banker forget my last post...im glad the subox has benefited you...it did also benefit me for those four years...we are all different yet the same in our disease..i only answered some folks who asked about the drug in the way i perceived their question about w/d's...im not trying to bust your bubble...id rather see you on it than going to the streets and destroying your family like i did mine...of course i support anything over the pill issue....i hope that folks read our topic and it helps them the way they see fit...if i came across as a basher,i apoligize.....chef

LaynesADDICTI0N
01-29-2004, 07:13 PM
i read things back and forth on these posts and "medically" they made these drugs for 2 reasons...

1. Slow titration - I lot of people cant handle a rapid detox, It makes the w/d less painful with slow titration - People who CAN do a rapid detox but are on the outside. The first 28 days are VERY crucial and most relapse in a matter of days - People who can not afford or cant be away from home for 28 days in an inpatient recovery center.

2. Maintenance - They link people who chronic relapse with dependency to these drugs. Prolonged use did damage to their brains and now they depend on this drug to live. So they stay on the program at very high doses for the rest of their life. Now their brain HAS the receptors that they needed to stimulated with opiates and they are binded. Now they dont steal, lie, and get arrested all the time, or if you never did any of that, you can now leave that dark cave you were in and go out and function.

That was always methadone and how buprenorphine started out, Suboxone was just made to erradicate the clinic system. Suboxone has a "low" abuse potental so they can give it out in 30 day counts with a doctor visit. This wont happen..... it hasnt been very effective with morphine abusers and heroin cost less than candy. It has however been effective with some people with codeine addictions and people with very "mild" morphine addictions. If anyone didnt understand, that is why they are used.

Banker
01-29-2004, 07:58 PM
First of all - Chef, thank you for your post. I appreciate it and I do know that you say the things you say because there are wds associated with it and you truly are not clean if you are taking meth or sub and you want addicts to be completely clean. I understand that entirely and I admire that in you. I understand now and I am sorry If I offended you. It's just that I know in my own self that I could not have stayed clean without the Sub or methadone. And yes, I had called a methadone clinic the day before I went to this doctor and they told me I would have to wait 5 days so I was going to try and get the meth prescribed for me by this doctor by saying I was in pain and was an addict. Well, he didn't buy it and he gave me Suboxone instead. Anyway, I just hope that if people are out there and they are trying to stop abusing meds and cannot overcome it no matter what they do, then they should give Suboxone a try. That's all I was saying and I understand what you are saying too.
Layne - I'm not exactly sure what you are saying... I've read on a heroine addiction board TONS of people that use Suboxone and are very satisfied with it so I'm not sure why you would say heroine addicts can't take it?? Also, if someone is an addict.... isn't that why they are an addict because they have screwed up their receptors? Is there anyone that abuses lortab, for example and takes 20 a day that hasn't messed up their receptors? I thought that is why they call it a 'disease' because the receptors are screwed up now? Am I wrong about that?

Banker
01-29-2004, 08:06 PM
Chef - one more thing... You asked why I take Suboxone? I take it because I don't want to take 20 lortabs. In AA/NA the theme is one day at a time. The suboxone is my one day at a time... for now. Also, I never have felt a euphoric effect from Suboxone, never. I took methadone off an on for a while (got them from someone who was prescribed for pain) and those honestly gave me more of a high than lortab but not Suboxone. It has just made me feel normal.

lisaaahubb
01-30-2004, 04:19 AM
Banker---i 100% agree with you.....if sub. prevents us from drug seeking and that crazy up and down cycle, then it is giving us our lives back.....
I am definitely "for" the use of suboxone....i am in the process of finding a doctor now. My insurance doesn't cover it!!!!! I wonder why?????? I am having a real hard time here in CT, even though there is a list a mile long of sub. doctors....you either can't get in for months or the number is out of service. Me and hubby are considering paying for it outright,.....but he is having a problem with that because i never "paid" for pills, so financially my pill popping hasn't destroyed us,,,,, that is about the only thing those freaking pills HAVEN'T destroyed!!!
Well i am all for it and it seems to be a maintanence drug, which is exactly what i am looking for. Especially after seeing what has happended with Happy Father....i just want OUT!!! Whatever works to keep us sane and sober...right?!?!?!
luv,
LISA

spark-o-cet
01-30-2004, 04:47 AM
lisa have you gotten divorced yet i think you said awhile back that you were gonna file for divorce no matter what.just wondered if you changed your mind now that you are talkin about suboxne-spark

lisaaahubb
01-30-2004, 04:55 AM
Hey Spark....plans still remain the same....he is still a very uncaring person toward me and this is the last thing i need while i am trying to get my life back on track. I see the "fear" in his eyes, he knows it is coming. I just can't live this way anymore. We don't even talk at night. Never mind sex...
I just want to be treated like a "woman" not a slave/daycare provider. I am better off w/out someone in my life....i really think he is like some kind of "drug" for me....he is going to go along with the pills :)
Thanks for asking about me...
luv,
LISA
P.s. How are you doing???????

Gabbi
01-30-2004, 06:14 AM
HI,
I was on sub for 3 months and I thought it was great as well, it served it's purpose I got to a place where I wasn't spending tons of money, pill popping chasing that high, actually felt "normal" for the first time in a long time. I got my finances back together and school back on track. But, for me after that, I wanted to really feel normal drug free normal. So I think it depends on the person, for some it motivates them to take it to that next level that they couldn't see when they were high, for some it saves their lives. It is scary that there isn't too much known, my Dr told me he hasn't had anyone successfully stop taking the sub, they get down to small mg and then can't take it anymore.

I truly appreciate chef and even spark's honesty about the wd. When I first started it, it was ALL Positive and I didn't know any of the negatives. So I think it's imp for people to know both sides to the story, and make an informed decision. There is just know way to skip the WD's.

Banker, I guess what I'm saying is enjoy the place your in right now. You have taken a step in the direction of recovery. You should be proud of yourself. You are not popping pills and chasing the high and that is great. Everyone is just trying to fight this addiction who cares how you win it??

Gabbi

Banker
01-30-2004, 08:43 AM
Thanks Gabbi - how are you doing now? How were the withdrawals and did you taper? Do you still have cravings now that you are off of it? Please let me know... It's so hard when you are on it because I feel like I never had an addiction problem so it makes me think if I stopped taking it, I would be fine. But deep down inside, I feel like I would just go back to being my druggy self that I was before the Sub. Thanks again and let me know...

Gabbi
01-30-2004, 08:59 AM
Hi,
No, I didn't wd from the sub. I was on it for a couple mos and got a horrible toothache and finally caved and took some vikes with the intention of going right back on the sub.....but that didn't happen. I went on like a 2 month binge, but I remembered how normal I felt on the sub and that I really wanted to be clean, so I CT when I knew I had some down time. I had a bottle of sub in my drawer the whole time, in case it got that bad. But, I just toughed it out, it was awful, but thankfully over and it's been 5 weeks now.

I know you feel torn sometimes like oh I traded one drug for another. You do, BUT it is one step closer to sobriety, you are not chasing that high and all the other things and you've given up the choice to get "high" so I really don't think there's anything wrong with taking the sub. It's what you do now that matters....fix any problems, go to support meetings (you don't have to tell them your on sub), and decide when and how you are going to take the next step.

Some people think that they'll be on sub their whole life, at a lower dose for depression, maybe there is something to that. We have messed up a lot of receptors. I guess my point is don't be down on yourself, enjoy being "normal" and functional. I felt the same way on the sub like what addiction...I don't have a problem. Oh how quickly we forget, as I anxiously sat in the dentist chair waiting for my script!!!
Gabbi

LaynesADDICTI0N
01-30-2004, 11:06 AM
I never said suboxone didnt work, I said it was made to rid the clinics system and that's not going to happen. Not every addict has a computer, and not everyone posts on message boards. But if it's working for you then you have nothing to lose but to stick with the program. right? Best of luck with your recovery.

LaynesADDICTI0N
01-30-2004, 11:15 AM
BTW there are a lot of case studies with using suboxone for other psychological/mental and physical illnesses that effect the brain. This would be the first opioid that was ever used in non-opiate dependent patients since siggy was alive. :)

sadsister
01-31-2004, 06:22 AM
Hi all-
Suboxone is an option..like methadone for detox/or maitainence..for those addicts that have done enough damage that getting off seems impossible.
Personally-i could care less if someone thinks im taking the easy way out-or im substituting..I was hardcore..big habit/with zero quality of life when i was off the drugs.All i could do was crave/lay around depressed..cos i wanted to get high.Suboxone works those receptors like a champ..lol..so you can get on w/ living..some clarity/im not sitting around all day dreaming about drugs.
i still crave-but now its more of a passing thought.
LIlas mom-glad to hear your daughter is doing the sub..and shes doing well!Alright!Another success story..
We are all entitled to our opinions..but for banker/murph/and the rest of us that are doing ok..w/this med..it may have saved our lives.
Goddess Bless!
heather :wave:

spark-o-cet
01-31-2004, 06:46 AM
if sub was made for depression and any doc could give it to us i think i might go back to it for depression but i really dont see this happening do anybody else?-spark

John 808
01-31-2004, 06:51 AM
I really don't either...as it is an opiate! Just my opinion!

michelle

jan22
01-31-2004, 07:09 AM
Do doctors expect you to only stay on sub for a limited time or will they allow patients to stay on it as long as they need to or forever for that matter?
Jan

Banker
01-31-2004, 07:48 PM
I've heard of both stories. My doctor said he would recommend a minimum of 6 months but preferably two years. However, he said that I could stay on it as long as I wanted to. He said I would have to tell HIM when I was ready to start getting off of it. He literally said, if you want to take it the rest of your life, fine w/me. So, I don't know what the future holds for me, I just know I'm doing great now and have no plans to get off of it anytime soon. I've only been on it for about 2 and 1/2 months.

jan22
01-31-2004, 08:00 PM
I wish this was an option for me. I would give anything not to crave these pills anymore. No one knows about my problem and I have a sensitive job. I would probably be fired if anyone suspected I had a problem. I am glad you are able to do this and it is helping you so much. From all of the posts I have read it sounds like a very good option for people who have not been able to kick this.
Thanks for answering my question.
Jan

Murphy555
01-31-2004, 11:23 PM
Banker,
I think you bring up an interesting topic for discussion.
I have not yet read anybody elses posts yet becasue I just wanted to respond to yours and then read.
I believe I was here at some point before you Banker. I don't remember you.

My present is, is that I am not on suboxone, 8mg/day and doing very well on it. I am very grateful. When I first got here I was so scared; I was taking 20-25 vicodin per day for 4 months (a relapse). This board also helped me through a detox, but I relapsed again.

I was very afraid to take the suboxone because it was an unknown to me. At that time, there were many, many people (sparko-cet will probably remember) who had just started to take suboxone and said it was a miracle drug, a wonder, and were very very happy to have found it.

I came along, did research on it, and asked alot of questions; like what happens when you want to withdraw from suboxone? And isn't it really like substituting one addiction for another. These were questions to help me make a decision because I was waffling so much. I did not mean to put any kind of damper on suboxone, but I guess i did by bringing up any possible negative thing about it, because people began to get mad at me for even asking these questions. People perhaps didn't want to face the reality of the answers to the questions at that time probably because they were where you are now - doing well, it's saved your life (as it did mine). It bothered people so much that there were many complaints about me and my comments about suboxone. They were really innocent and I certainly did not want to put a damper on anybody elses progress with it. I just wanted to know. Is it true that it's easier to withdraw from than pills. I swore to myself I would never get on methadone because I heard so many nightmares about people taking a year to get off and feeling so bad for so long. Was this going to be the same? The Drs. told me know. And the people on the boards weren't exactly sure but told me know.

So, while I understand where you are coming from, exactly, with what you are feeling every time someone talks about the problems of suboxone, I also identify with them somewhat. I know they don't mean to burst your bubble of mine.

I personally though have a big problem with those that go the NA route, and congratulations to them for working hard and somehow manage to stay sober, to hold it against those that have not been able to sto relapsing, so they choose another form of treatment, like suboxone. I asked my counselor recently, because they want me to go to NA meetings, etc. what do I say about suboxone, because even in the group meetings, some people resented me for taking suboxone, and their insurance wouldn't cover it so they had to do it the 'hard' way. What they don't understand, is that I did it the hard way too, so many times.

Am I taking the easy way out? I don't know. But at this point, I don't care. I'm absolutely thrilled to suddenly be off pills completely, not tempted. Wow, what an accomplishment for me. I was going to take Spark-o-Cet advise a month ago and quit early like his girlfriend, but I truly did not feel mentally ready. So I didn't. And, I would have no problem taking it for life if I felt that was best. Society will always try and make you feel guilty, and that in turn makes others feel guilty within themselves sometimes that they are just substituting. I try not to care what other people think, but how am I doing - feeling, etc.

What others think is not important when it comes to this. Maybe someday I will get off, but I'm not going to start worrying about withdrawal until that day comes.

And Banker, if it makes you feel any better, everybody's chemistry is different. I talked to a client of my Dr who got off suboxone with minimal problems after a 3 months taper. She didn't miss work, wasn't sick, and said it no way compared to getting off pills. So - everyone is different.

I apologize for being so long-winded.
Murphy

Murphy555
01-31-2004, 11:37 PM
Hmmm.....now I'm very confused. I know I can go to a medical/chemical website and check out just how Suboxone works in the brain, etc....but, first, I'd rather ask those of you who know. WHY would a doctor take you off an opiate, so that he could put you on another opiate?? Is it merely that the Suboxone opiate is less damaging than the hydro opiate?? What's the point? When I read posts like Bankers, I feel such relief that there is something that may help me after years of low-level--but steady--pill taking. Why would they make a drug, i.e. Suboxone, if all it does is make you FEEL like you're off opiates? When all that's happened is that you've just exchanged one for another?? I'd really like to understand this. Banker sounds as if she's at the point that I would like to be!! Surely, it must be better to be on Suboxone than Hydros??

Thanks for any info any of you can offer. I may sign on-line again later just so I can go to bed with some "closure" on this issue! :-)


TwinLynn
First, yes, taking suboxone is alot less damaging that taking pills that just the acetophenomin alone will kill you in large amounts. It's an opiate Lynn, but do some reading if you can. It's an opiate agonist/antagonist. This means that the opiates very strongsly bond and fill up the receptors of your brain. Which explains why if you take pills to get high, you don' feel like you did, because the suboxone is already glued so to speak to your receptors. No room for the opiates in pills. And there's a ceiling effect, so that you can take so much, but you won't get 'high' from the suboxone. It also stops the cravings for 'other' opiates because the brain receptors are satisfied. Tolerance doesn't keep on building up & up so that you need more more and more to get the same affect. So it doesn't just make you feel like you're off opiates. for most in recovery craving and relapsing go hand in hand and having craving eliminated (as it has done in my case) is a huge thing. Then there's the naloxone in the suboxone and before I go into that I want to be sure I know what I'm talking about before I say what's positive about : )

Murph

Murphy555
01-31-2004, 11:46 PM
Michelle,
you make some good points.
You know, drugs like prozac and all those SSRI antidepressants that have been out for so long it seems, to Drs. there is still so much UNKNOWN about these drugs and so many others. Often it's trial and error for a long, long time. Just know that studies are done on these drugs for years and years and then some before it's presented to the FDA for approval. I used to work in a medical center at the Drug Studies Unit, and we were the lab that did part of the reserach on various drugs and worked with the companies who eventually manufactured these drugs. I even remember when buprenorphine got started and the grant that got this research going.

Drs. don't know what the antidepresssant are going to do to our brain receptors in the long run. Look how long HRT (hormone replacement therapy) has been in existence, and it took 40 years for someone to say it's not good for us. Most drugs that have been approved by the FDA, it's still trial and error. Suboxone is SO new, so of course it's maybe more unnerving, but I don't see much difference in Drs. knowing about this vs. so many other drugs that they prescribe every single day.

I think tranquilizers are probably more dangerous than taking suboxone! And even many of the over the counter medications!

I've always been resistant to trying new pills or new antidepressant; and in the begining like I said, very resistant to suboxone - but this time, I'm very sure and very glad I made this choice.

Murph

Murphy555
01-31-2004, 11:54 PM
\Also, if someone is an addict.... isn't that why they are an addict because they have screwed up their receptors? I thought that is why they call it a 'disease' because the receptors are screwed up now? Am I wrong about that?

~~~
No. Being an addict is a combination of bio-psycho-social components. As much research that is going on about how opiates have screwd up people's receptors - maybe for life - there is no concrete scientific evidence that says this tempoary chemical imbalance is irreversible.
It May take a long time to get back to n ormal or some balance.
Psychologically, there may always be cravings.
Addiction is also about obtaining them controlling your life, doing things you normally would not do despite the consequences, build up of tolerace ..you can still go through withdrawal with a substance and not be addicted to that substance. Like say you take a tranquilizer every night. They're very addictive. If you stop, your body will scream for more, but it doesn't mean that all the other criterion for addiction, that makes one an addict is present for that drug.

And addiction as a disease is just a theory. If it wasn't considered a disease, you would not be able to get treated in treatment centers. Many people don't consider addiction as a disease, but as a choice. I think it becomes a combination of both.

And I'm tired. Good topic tho
Murphy

LaynesADDICTI0N
02-01-2004, 04:24 PM
separate the addiction from the dependency. The addiction is the obsession, the craving. Your BODY doesnt become addicted to a ANYTHING, when was the last time your body walked downtown on it's own and bought dope? You're body "depends" on your "addiction". If you are waking up in cold sweats everynight and your doctor gave you valium, you took 10mg every night as directed, or if they gave you 120 percs and told you to take 3 daily and you did so to control the compressed discs in your back so you can keep your job, youre still going to have w/d if you stop. That doesnt mean your an addict or "your body is addicted", that is an incorrect use of the word and even doctors do it ALL the time.

Chemical Dependency - body depends on a chemical to obtain and sustain.

Addiction - Thought, Obsession, craving.......

CADE! :D