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View Full Version : The Twins --with hope, relief--and some fear--have a Suboxone Doctor's Appt. Tuesday


Twinlynn
12-04-2004, 06:59 AM
To all of you who followed our long year's journey of indecision, watching us falter and hesitate to take that first step against our opiate addiction.


Finally, "Twinlynn" (Lynn) and "Best Friend" (Alice) took the step. Yesterday--we did it. :bouncing:

Friday, I stood near the phone, nervously flipping the pages of my long list of NYC Suboxone psychiatrists....and choose a few to call (A choice based on the highly-informed, scientific, knowledgeable, research-oriented method of: "WHOSE OFFICE WAS CLOSEST TO HOME!!!" LOLOL!!) :D :rolleyes:

My first choice--a tired-sounding recording by a woman who no longer took Sub patients; my second choice--a cheerful, optimistic message from a doctor, unfortunately, out-of-town until next week. But...my third call--perfect! A kind, authoritative, knowedgeable woman, who I spoke with for about 15 minutes.....long enough to feel that she cared just as much about the invisable needs of the person inside...as she did the visibly addicted person on the outside.

She spoke of the Suboxone as giving you a start to help tackle the struggles that brought you there in the first place. And, she ended by saying that she did not "make a living" by how long, or how many pills I'd need to take, or sessions we'd need to talk, or fees "per prescription." I definitely understood her to be saying that she is not one of the new "on-the-bandwagon" doctors out there, looking for the most lucrative ways to use her patients financially. She even spoke of how she is able in most cases to get the medication approved by company insurance policies, without your records being affected.

A quick look on the web reassured me of her experience, ability, etc. She is on the staff of an excellent NYC Psychiatric hospital here, has published papers in various tehnical medical areas re. the brain. And I get the sense that her research has been an important part of her work. Our short discussion was very reassuring to me.

But--aside from all this scholarly stuff--let's get back to the basics! Alice and I are just an absolute jumble of emotions right now--simultaneously terrified--relieved--bewildered--hopeful--and so sad to be losing our "pill pals"--who, in those first few years, brought such illusionary joy, energy, heightened imagination and creativity..and this absolutely false sense that we could be more "special" in life. And, while the last year or so had turned that former illusion into the most terrible, cruel joke on us.....still, it is so hard to forget the initial reactions...when life seemed to have so much in store. (Yeah!! Right!! Like: loss of interest in friends, in daily life, in work, in once much-loved hobbies and skills....in just EVERYTHING...other than looking at my watch and thinking "only two more hours...and then I'll take that pill....and get started again!" And, of course, that pill was the start of NOTHING! Like the last one....and the one before that....and the one before that....and the.....etc, etc. And....yet....STILL, it was so darn hard to abandon these "friends."

But, sometimes we DO come to our senses! :eek: And we DO find the guts to at least try. So.....to the wonderful, and completly non-judgemental, caring, loving friends that Alice and I have made on this board in the past year....a millions hugs and thanks for never throwing up your hands and muttering "Hopeless! Utterly hopeless!" :D You guys have been so good and so kind. I lurked for so months and months before I could get the courage to post. I was just not ready, yet, to change my life....but I needed so much to start surrounding myself by those who did. And, as Ggrl once said to me "you may not be there at that point--YET--but when you are, we'll all be here for you" And that meant soooo much. :angel:

So! Tuesday at 1:30 pm is the big day and moment. We were told to come in, having taken whatever we normally do, so I guess it will be at least a day before we start up the Sub. This doctor says she does all the initial contacting of the drug store for our prescription--so, she made the call yesterday, asking the pharmacy to order the pills. (I'd imagined tramping every street in NY, desperately looking for a pharmacy that carried it--and that didn't give me the evil eye!! LOL!) So, how nice for this doctor to take that first step for us!

I WOULD SO LOVE TO HEAR COMMENTS FROM ALL MY OLD BUDDIES WHO I GOT TO KNOW SO WELL LAST WINTER....BUT LOST TOUCH WITH AS THEIR LIVES MOVED ON.

BANKER, KINDA, MURPHY555, MARCIA, STACY, CHEF, ROOT, etc, etc.--AND THERE ARE SO MANY MORE.

AND--DALLAS ALICE--WHERE ARE YOU?

AND, OF COURSE, ALL MY DEAR PALS NOW, GGRL, LISA, CHRISTIANMOM, SAMMI, KIMBEE, HYDROGIRL, ET AL!! (AND I CAN SEE SO MANY MORE "IN MY HEAD"--BUT I HAVE SUCH A LOUSY MEMORY FOR NAMES AND CAN'T THINK OF THEM RIGHT NOW!!)

ANYWAY. SO MANY THANKS TO ALL, AND I'LL BE UPDATING YOU ON HOW THE APPT. GOES!!

If anyone has some Sub information that they wish to share....we're all ears! :-)

xxx luv from Lynn xxxx (And Alice) xxxx

goddessgrl65
12-04-2004, 07:27 AM
My favorite TWINS...
wow/wow/wow...x3...Alright grrls...YOU DID IT>>>jumping/clapping/Weeeeeee/fist-pumping..Whose that crazed women-yelling out her apt..?????Oh hi..thats gotta be me...
I am and will always..be here for ya..and i gotta say..i am so proud you are gonna give it a shot..
I know you've been feeling sad my friend..and i know..initially-it will be tough-making the transition..(but if you really want out..)-its right there-and i swear to you..(remember im the neurotic/bubbala..etc)-you will feel much better-but it takes a few weeks to stabilise..where it really sinks in-and you feel the depression lift..and a new empowered TWIN(s)..
Sounds like a great doctor-i like women doctors..personally..and think about this-the creativity that once filled your world..the good times-where you felt comfy w/o the pills..will be reality again..i promise..
i know you've seen the ups/downs of my life-here..but you also have seen the progress ive made due to this miracle med..thats how i feel about it..saved my life..plain/simple..
I know you've been getting progressively more depressed over the last months-i promise too-this will lift..you will no longer be enslaved to the pills of yore.
One lil suboxone..and you are free-
Yes..its still a pill-but-.....its also freedom..no more counting/dividing-w/d weekends-(when you are low-or out)..Ladies..there is hope..
Thats my pledge to you..i know you will feel better getting a hold on this.
Do not fear-the sub...life is yours..
much love-
ggrl :angel:

Baseball65
12-04-2004, 08:13 AM
Right on!
Good for you... :bouncing:

So,I checked your old posts and I never quites caught exactly how much/what your DOC's were/are??

It doesn't really matter,I was just curious.

I've been on the stuff for about..uhh..6 weeks? and I never even think about Hydro/Morphine any more.I rarely need any sleeping aid,and when I do it's something non-benzo.I'm ready to quit the xanax as well,but have to wait for my MD to finish reading the Ashton Manual(I take 1mg a day)

It's been really different,especially when leaving the house..I don't have to make sure I'm "covered" e.g. making sure I have enough meds to survive my trip away from home.....very time consuming.

Congratulaions
let us know how you're doing

Baseball65

kuno
12-04-2004, 09:32 AM
Hey, I started Subutex yesterday and I feel great! I have some mild stomach problems and a little trouble sleeping (nothing NyQuil could not fix) and I was coming off a big habit. 200-300 mg's of hydro a day plus "extras". It is a wonderful drug and the best part is on day one you can say "I can see myself doing this and seeing it thru".

agentalias
12-04-2004, 09:50 AM
Yea...! Alas... Its truly a better option than being on the rollercoaster of hydro consumption. You both will not regret it. Not only that you both are doing it together and both got a woman PsychMD! You both will be so well taken care of! Lucky gals :)

Twinlynn, yes we did have dialogue in the past together here on the boards....You're a great Sherlock Holmes as well! I wish all of the other old posters would post. I wonder where they all are...?? I was 35+ a day hydro , went on Subutex and got off that. So I don't mind sharing with you any info or past experiences that I may have.

I've been opiate free for 6 months now. Life has been so much better. I will be here for both of you so shoot away at any questions that you both may have.

Take care. :cool:

Twinlynn
12-04-2004, 10:27 AM
Ggrl and Baseball

Ggrl -
I am LOL at the thought of your whoowee, fist-pumping "YES"! exhibition!! Where were you at the time? At a memorial?? LOLOL!! :jester: Oooh, I'm sooooo sick!! Aren't you glad you don't usually have to listen to this type of humor! :D (Do you remember the Mary Tyler Moore show episode, when after mourning the death of "Chuckles the Clown" (killed by an elephant who saw him dressed like a peanut in the parade), she suddenly unleashes all her tension and sorrow about Chuckles death---by being unable to stop herself from laughing like a lunatic at his actual memorial--and making a total spectacle of herself! LOL!) Well, I always feel that kind of sick humor coming on after I've been very tense about a decision, etc!!! And I'm feeling rather relieved...and a bit silly after yesterday's rigor mortis stiff sort of day!!

Anyway, you have been so good in keeping me on the path towards making this decision. Honestly, I thought about all the times you reassured me...and every post helped so much! And thanks for mentioning that it takes a few weeks (I remember Baseball's initial problems) It is just so lucky that I don't go back to work until January 10....so I have time to adjust.

I want so badly to be "normal" again. To feel all those small joys I always did before all these pills. And...these oxys were the absolute worse. There was no feeling "good"---just agitation--and worry that the withdrawal was only hours away from last one. I could have been a statistician or mathematician, I became such a pro at numbers......at working out how many I need, how many I have, how many I soon WON'T have, etc, etc. Kinda like those old math exam questions that used to freak me out: "If a high-speed engine, travelling at 125 mph with a cargo of 250 loose oxys (40 mg) is heading towards an iron steam engine moving at 40 mph and containing 600 Vicodin (10/325's)....how many days would it take for the drugs to collide and pulverize......"etc, etc. You get the point!! :D

Alice and I had a long chat, yesterday, about when all the pill stuff started (percs, vics, etc.)--and how little we actually used to take in those early days. Years ago. we'd say "oh, let's go shopping...and take half a pill." So....at what point did we drop out the "shopping" part of the plan....and just take the PILL! SEVERAL of them!!! (And, it escalated so badly after we started getting those free oxys almost two years ago--after my cousin's Rx was changed from Vicodins to oxys.) Al and I always laugh that we are such "pathetic" users....in that...we never even had to TRY to get any of pills for ourselves. No doctor visits, dr. shopping, on-line pharmacies, etc. Nothing! They were all just HERE. Right in our building in our cuz's apt--on OFFER from her!! Sooooo sick!! And, yet, the addiction was absolutely no different from everyone's--physically and mentally, it followed the same traditional pattern--and started to destroy us.

I read stories like your's and Baseball's and all of you who took steps to choose a better life...and I just admire you all so much. It took so long for me to reach that point. (I'm probably one of the doctor's "older" patients! :D Another 7 years and Medicare will be able to pay for it! LOLOL!! Just kidding!!!--about Medicare--but....not, unfortunately, about my age!) Well....better late than never. In retrospect now (and I have to write this retrospective bio for the doctor by Tuesday), it all got really bad when my mother began her descent into dementia. That expression "The Long Good-by" is so appropos--you spend years caring for and watching the person you so loved--and who had so loved you back and made you such a focus of her life--slowly start to leave you emotionally, physically, mentally...everyway, really. Anyway, I definitely can see how important those Vicodins became to me then. ("I'll got to Mom's for the day....then take a pill halfway thru...and then another one, afterwards." We had a caregiver for my mother, for basic care, but we were there every day, because all she ever asked for (and she was never, ever mean or demanding) were "her girls," as she called us.)

Anyway, this is turning into a saga. A soap opera, actually! A pity party! :jester: By the way, I must admit to liking women doctors, too, but the funny thing was that her first name could have been male or female--like that character "Pat" on "Saturday Night Live"--so--it was a real toss-up as to just what gender was going to answer! :-)

I know that you have been having some rather depressing things happening in your life recently....and I wish I could help you the way you've helped me. When I read your much earlier posts, I could really see how the Sub helped save your life, not just physically....but in helping you bypass the very worst of the depression aspect of cold turkey or rapid-taper withdrawal....an issue I was just never able to get past. "Depression" is much too mild a word to express the black hole I was falling into each time I tapered down to the last bit. And I'm sure you experienced that yourself (and are now experiencing it with your Sub taper...I'm sure that's such a difficult aspect of getting off the Sub.) So....if there's any time you ever just want to talk...you know I check in here, when I can. So, please...just write! :-)

So...thanks a million for all your support....and for your excited reaction to my news! It made me feel like we were celebrating together!! xxxx Lynn :-)

Baseball - It was so nice of you to write with your "newbie" experiences with the Sub. This is the sort of information that I need so much. I'm going to go back into your first posts and reread your "history" in more detail! :D

What you say about leaving the house without thinking about those pills....that REALLY hits home. You should have seen me counting those pills out for my ski trip last year!!?? (And I felt withdrawal the whole time anyway, because I hadn't nearly enough. Even the exhiliration of doing the one thing I love more than anything else--heading down those amazing Western powder bowls and weaving in and out of those beautiful pine trees--could not stop the withdrawal from ruining the trip. I STILL feel such pain just remembering the horror of doing something you love---but feeling absolutely nothing. Getting my joy of skiing back again is, believe it or not, one of my most powerful motivators!!)

But, mostly.....I just want to experience ordinary happiness again. I, honest to goodness, cannot remember "joy." Not REAL joy. How pathetic is THAT! :confused:

So, many thanks for taking the time to share your experiences with the Sub. Be assured that I will get back to you with mine! (And I will tell you the long story of my path to opiates another time--I've got to get off the computer now. But I can give you an idea of where I am at the moment--about four 40 mg oxys a day. Not pretty. And I feel terrible. I take them just to try to stave off withdrawal. But, mostly, my only "feelings" are just depression. "No joy in Mudville," as the Casey poem goes!

Thanks again, Baseball, Lynn :-)

Twinlynn
12-04-2004, 10:39 AM
Agent - Ah....a detective never forgets a face! Ummm...or is that 'never forgets an icon"?? Or a "handle"? Ah, whatever! I believe in reincarnation. And, I also wish that some of those golden oldies would oil their gears and make a trip "home"--even if for just a short visit! (Remember the girlscout song "Make new friends, but keep the old...one is silver and the other's gold!) LOLOL!!

Am real glad you're doing so well! :-)

and

Kuno - thanks for the reassurance. You can't believe how I "beam" when I read something like you've just said about realizing you've actually "done it."! I can't even believe I made the CALL yet! LOL! We need to form a club....all us new Subbies. "The Sub Club!!" :-) Lynn

christianmom
12-04-2004, 11:10 AM
Wow Lynn and Alice!

You two are my newest inspiration(s)!!!!! I am so very proud of BOTH of you, and so happy and excited for you both as well. I just know that this will be the beginning of a bigger and better life, something I can't wait to experience as well!!!! I'm going to be right behind you girls though...I finally found several doctors in my area that are Sub. docs (after being told by a rehab. facility in Florida that they just don't exist in my state...which was very depressing! Why do they lie to us like that?! I know they wanted me to spend money I DON'T have to come to their facility for detox/rehab, but it just really irks me that they flat out lied and told me that I would NEVER find a Sub. doctor here in my state!)....although I have yet to make that phone call. I have EVERY intention to do so...still not sure what I'm waiting on though (other than finishing this brand new bottle of pills). I just can't get over how much I can relate to every, single thing you wrote in your initial post...the feeling of giving up the pills, the fact that they eventually destroy every ounce of motivation, desire to socialize with others, desire to even leave the house, etc., etc. I feel all of that!

Anyway, once again I don't have much time here on the computer (my hubby works all day on Saturdays, so I'm home with all 5 kids today)...but I just had to respond and tell you both that I am SOOOOOOO proud of you!!!!!! You both had better give total and complete details about your appointment, your experience, EVERYTHING....I NEED so badly to hear it ALL....I NEED to know that it's going to work. Just know that I too am ALWAYS here for both of you, and I love the two of you like you are part of my own family...or like I've know you both for years (sorry if that sounds corny, but it's the truth!). I'll be praying for both of you, and thinking of you constantly!!! I'm just so excited for you both...I can't express that enough!!!!! Keep posting away, and even once you all are doing wonderful WITHOUT those awful pills, you had better not disappear and leave all of us that so desperately need your words of wisdom and encouragement, okay?!

Much love to you both!!!!!!!!

kuno
12-04-2004, 11:22 AM
Yea, sign me up for the "Sub Club". I will be a new member. I also went and did it with a friend, so we are doing it at the same time. So far the results have been great. I am on day 2 and it is better than day 1 cause the amount of Sub I took this morning is overlapping with the stuff from yesterday. I guess that is how it "levels" out. I feel much better now and even my stomach is ok.

marich101
12-04-2004, 05:20 PM
TwinLynn,
That was a very moving post the not feeling real joy really touched me. I hope you and you sister have much success and I feel that you will you have sounded very determined for awhile.
My thoughts and prayers are with you,
Good luck and God Bless
Marilyn

Best Friend
12-04-2004, 08:19 PM
I am reading these incredible responses from our Board friends, and I feel so hopeful. Just maybe, with you all by our side, we can 'do it!' No...make that, "We WILL do it!" :bouncing: Lynn and I know how lucky we are to have each other on this scary journey. And we hope that our updates over the next few weeks will encourage others to 'make the sub (or rehab) call.' (ChristianMom...consider us your 'triplet!' We suspect you are close on our heels to give the Sub a try. Cool!) :cool: And, by the way, it is criminal that a Rehab would say that 'Sub doctors are not available in Fl.' This new drug is available now in almost EVERY state! I'm sure the less scrupulous rehabs are concerned that they will be put 'out of business' by Sub. But the better facilities will no doubt incorporate the drug into their healing programs. And perhaps their clients, feeling 'normal' upon taking the Sub, will be in better emotional and physical shape to absorb the major mind-healing work that must begin after de-tox.

Lynn and I are currently mulling over our last days of Oxy nibbling...and, of course, like true addicts, how can one resist going out in a blaze of glory. Kinda like the 4th of July. We've been 'setting off' the 'little guys' for years - a pink here, a green there, a yellow everywhere. Now, with two days left till Sub, it feels like we're building up for the Grand Finale. That final explosion...the blast of artificial colors...the crescendo-ing oohs and aahs of the twins taking the last of all their pills...and then....the silence. When the only things left in the sky are the millions of twinkling stars...a reminder that the 'natural' beauty that life has to offer is still the most spectacular. And so, a special thanks to all of you who have, over these many months, gently nudged us to remember the beauty out there and assured us that it's all waiting for us!! You guys are true angels! :angel:

I have found my first post to the List! Almost one year ago. Have cut and pasted it below in case it helps explain our story to newcomers. (See below) TwinAlice :wave:

"DOUBLE TROUBLE"-TWIN Tales of the Unexpected :-( :-(
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, a huge "thanks" to all posters, here...for your honesty, your good - often-so-eloquent! - information, and, mostly, for your kind support of one another. There is so much intelligence, generosity, compassion to be found on this Board! Makes it a lot easier to 'share one's story.' And my (OUR) story may be a tad 'weirder'...or, let's just say, 'more different'...than some heard here, before. It is a tale of 'TWINS' - tho, thankfully, not as far gone as the poor twins of "Dead Ringers" - for those of you old enough to recall the novel/film! :-)

First...an introduction: we are 57 1/2 (that 'half' COUNTS at our age..so what if our 58th birthday is in January!) year-old identical twins. We are also: 'model citizens' (of course! lol);...no kids but we're deliciously dawg crazy (3 Shih Tzu furkids for me...hence, my 'Best Friend' board handle...I've worked with all 3 in Obedience <smart lil critters..smile>)...and a lovingly-benevolent-dictator-Lhasa and Peke for my twin; she also has a VERY respectable, responsible job (for a public figure)...and I 'get by' with freelance writing, after a fun career in acting;...we are avid (tho never-in-shape!) skiers;...and....well...you get the picture - we 'seem normal!' My sister is recently separated from her husband of 20 years and dealing well with it. We live in same building, but in different apts.

Now for the "weird" part... This whole drug thing began with, (and its continuance is pretty much dependent upon), our cousin, who has been prescribed pain meds (legitimately, for REAL suffering!) for the past ten years. Over this period, she has been received Vicodin, Oxys, etal, and has been "very generous" with them (since my sister and I have occasional back pain). To make a long story short, what started out for us as taking these pills for our 'real' pain, has escalated to us "siphoning out" whatever we can (without being absurdly greedy) from her ongoing supply...which can be substantial. (By the way, we are fascinated that our cousin never seems to suffer withdrawal when she goes off opiates. She has quite an amazing constitution.) We rarely get our own scripts (once in a while, for back pain) and we've never gone online or accessed meds thru 'dealers.' But our cousin's supply has been just enough for both of us to have acquired a serious "habit.'

It was so gradual, that neither one of us realized how bad it had gotten. Now, we have admitted to ourselves - and to each other - that these drugs have changed our lifestyles quite dramatically. The need to feel "medically warm and fuzzy" has supplanted so many of the 'real' activities we once filled our lives with. We used to love wandering the city, enjoying its varied cultures, it's wonderful ethnic areas...and we'd rent cars and drive miles to see friends exhibit at out-of-town dog shows...and checked out any interesting new eateries... Let's just say, that before drugs, while we may not have "gotten high on life" each and every day, we never 'needed' those "highs" to simply "get ON" with life...(to function)! Now...it's mostly about hanging out alone or with each other...no natural energy...no goals. "Nibbling' an opiate has become the day's focus. It's just been so insidious. And, what finally drove the point home, is that we are finally facing withdrawal ('funny' how this Board gets REAL interesting when it's time to pay the piper). Our cousin is getting different medication now, so WE are confronting reality...SOON. The "physical" symptoms will, fer shure, be uncomfortable for us....but it is the 'emotional' pain that we know we will face. We will have to 'relearn' what it feels like to wake up and look forward to a "normal" drug-free day. In one sense, I am almost happy we will be forced into this. I used to love waking up and planning each day....I got SO excited over such simple pleasures. Now, I feel like a social 'hermit'....unable to separate my 'real' depressions and fears from those, drug-induced. My twin feels the same (tho she goes into an office everyday and I write at home...so she is 'forced' to socialize, while I just have to walk my dogs!). We have both dealt (fairly successfully) with clinical depression and OCD over the years (for us, Prozac was a blessing and still is), but this escalating addiction has been a real setback for us.

Things got worse for us some years ago when we cared for our mother, who, for about 8 years, suffered bad depression and dementia. We got her an apt in our building and, tho she had a daily caregiver, we spent much of our time with her, trying to make her final years bearable. "Pills" were a 'way out' for us at the end of an emotionally draining day....and even tho our mother has been gone a few years now, we are still left a bit 'stunned' by all those years of sadness. While the drugs remain "OUR secret," both my sister and I do continue to have loving, caring friends...and the irony (part of the "weirdness" of this!) is that many of them rely on US, like 'gurus,' for help in THEIR day-to-day troubles. They have no idea what is going on with us (guess my years of acting paid off - lol!) - and, of course, we are so HAPPY to help out our friends in any way we can (and relieved that apparently our brains have not been TOTALLY "fried!" <g>). I guess that's what just amazes me. I can 'talk down' and psychoanalyze almost anyone out of anything <smile> - but I sat back and watched 'myself' sink lower and lower into this abyss. But that seems to be typical of many posters here -- 'levelheaded' and down-to-earth in every 'other' aspect of our lives!

It's amazing tho, isn't it, how this 'drug thing' all happens... My first experience with opiates was 20 years ago...I was prescribed Percodans for a sprained ankle. I actually called the doctor and told him, "There is a problem with the medication you prescribed...I took it last night and felt like I was floating." <grin> At THAT time, I considered the 'floating feeling' a "problem!" Then, fifteen years ago, we had a dr. who gave us a small amount of Percodan once a year for our menstrual pain...and we both recall being 'delighted' with its warm little buzz. But we had no access to other drugs. Then....came our cousin and her constant supply. Who could imagine getting addicted so "effortlessly!" No "doctor shopping"...no ferreting out "dealers"...just a family member with a monthly bottle of opiates.

Well, this is getting awfully long...but so many of you have been so brave this week, so thought I'd take the plunge with our "twin story." Identical depressions, identical OCD....and now, identical addiction. Two DOWN....ONE to go! ... We hope, we hope, we hope.. :-) We wish you all lots of strength and the love and understanding of good people in your lives. Believe me, we know that we, as twins, are totally blessed to have each other to share all this. (If we can help anyone else somehow, please do not hesitate to direct a post our way. And, by the way, we are happy to "do" twin questions....no query considered 'too silly.' Promise! Lol! P.S. We will be home until late next week when we go on our annual ski holiday.)
The Twins :-) :-)

kuno
12-04-2004, 09:33 PM
It is a blessing you ahve each other to face this with. You will do well. I am on the Subutex now and it is a amazing drug. Very effective. You will beat this...

Ellnyc
12-04-2004, 11:07 PM
Dear Lynn and Alice!
I was so excited to hear that you guys are ready to take the plunge! We're ready when we're ready and not a moment before! It was the same for me... waiting to quit until I felt something inside me that was willing to go through the pain and be uncomfortable! I knew myself and my low tolerance for discomfort and I just didn't waste my time with the start/stop syndrome as I had so many times in my earlier years of addiction. I'm the same age as you and live in the same city too! My last official detox before getting clean and sober (now 16 years ... OMG!) :eek: was for xanax not opiates which was really my first love and DOC. In the 70's I was on a MM program for waaaaaaaaay too long. (like 6 years)!
I'm so glad that you have this important new medication to aid you to in making this very crucial and important first step! I'm really happy to have read your exciting, enchanting news! I look forward to following your updates in the next few weeks and want you to know I will be here rooting for you both! You are ready, I hear can hear it in your words! And Lynn... I will never forget that you were the first person to welcome me to the boards in August. Thank you for that! ;)
It takes courage to come to terms with our addictions and the demons that loom. Please know, we are here for you as you enter this next stage of an exciting new life. No matter what! I just know you will both thrive!
Please, please be safe these next few days! I know the tendency... errr.....
Much love and care,
El :angel:

DallasAli
12-04-2004, 11:10 PM
After lurking, barely posting, missing the "old gang," then only dropping in once in awhile these days, well...I can't begin to tell you two how glad I am for checking in tonight as I would not have wanted to miss this thread for the world! So much to say to you both, but where to even start...?

First, thank you for sharing something so personal as your very first thread. It gave me an insight into you two that I didn't have all the pieces of your puzzle of how you got to addiction level. I think you will find yourselves rereading it at times just to help you "know where you've been." I can see a difference in your ways of expression already. I remember also when a half of a pill was enough to suffice for a shopping spree, but as you know, for me it got to where 4 or more were needed just to get me ready to go out the door, then five or six to get the kicks I used to get from the shopping, and then eventually to where there was no fun in them anymore, and it drove me out of my mind and made me want to kill myself, and I made that first post here a mere 4-5 months ago. Life was hard to live for the sake of my loved ones then, but it is better now, and the thoughts of death seldom linger for long anymore. The main problem I deal with, and I wonder if you will find yourselves experiencing this also, is because I had purposelfully pushed away all my friends and pals so I could be alone with my real buds--the pills, and now that the pills are gone, I have severe bouts of loneliness as I try to rebuild my life and rekindle some old friendships. Ah, the payback...!

Next, how does someone even find the words to tell you how happy, excited, nervous, anxious, hopeful, sincere, understanding, and every emotion and expression of congratulations for making such a huge decision as you two have made and be able to tell you that...well, in proofing, I guess I found the words! Sincerely Lynn, Alice, I am so genuinely happy and excited both with and for you, too, really--my eyes well up at the thought of anticipation for the guilty pleasure I will recieve as a result of your new upcoming posts. I'm right there with you ladies just like you two have always, always been there for me.

If the sub works the same as the meth has for me, then I think you will be very pleasantly surprised at the immediacy of the relief you will feel. Yes, stabilizing takes awhile, but gone will be the days of counting, carpet combing, rationing, and I hate to say it, but say goodbye temporarily to rearranging closets, drawers, cabinets and cupboards! That thing we do to justify away the guilt of taking an extra pill or two by cleaning and reorganizing and tackling weird projects goes away for awhile, but when it comes back, watch out as it comes back with a real-life vengeance! Your homes will never be cleaner than in a few months...LOL! And have no fears, your beloved pups will not find you any less loving nor boring, either.

How wonderful to have each other's heart and hand to hold as you begin this adventure into a world you know, but have only taken a detour from. I have no doubt your strength of character and senses of humor will fill the time when dosed properly every 4 hours! You will get through this change and the sorrow of saying goodbye to the powder vicodin es white, buttercup norco yellow, or baby lortab blue of your best friends cloaks as you watch their backs disappear down the street and around the corner and out of the sight of your life. I truly understand that sense of loss, and I expect you will feel it quite strongly. Those pills don't let us down like real people, but then at some point they do when they don't work like they used to, and we are forced to make a decision and ultimately a change, and that's where the irony is because they are so very bad for us so we do something good to replace them! I have no doubts that you will once again find the joys of the sea while looking only at a raindrop, you know? Those little things you speak of are and have always been there, waiting to be noticed again by you both, and I can assure you that you will feel that feeling again. There are many Kodak moments ahead, and I want to be there to hear you describe each one!

As I wait for your next post and the start of this new way of life for you, I will offer you these words on the playground of life...

One hour devoted to the pursuit of beauty and love is worth a full century of glory given by the frightened weak to the strong. From that hour comes man's truth; and during that century truth sleeps between the restless arms of disturbing dreams. In that hour the soul sees for herself the natural law, and for that century she imprisons herself behind the law of man; and she is shackled with irons of oppression. It is that hour when the heart is purified by flaming sorrow, and illuminated by the torch of love. And in the century, desires for truth are buried in the bosom of the earth. That hour is the root which must flourish. That hour is the hour of contemplation, the hour of meditation, the hour of prayer, and the hour of a new era of good. This is life. Portrayed on the stage for ages; recorded earthily for centuries; lived in strangeness for years; sung as a hymn for days; exalted for but an hour, but the hour is treasured by Eternity as a jewel.

Lynn and Alice, I wish you many new hours...

All my love,
Dallas Alice

goddessgrl65
12-05-2004, 07:02 AM
Dallas-Twins....and friends...

That was soo beautiful-you/twins..are such superb writers..(*tears/laughing)
its so great to see you happy again-a far cry from your initial post-Goddess Bless EVERYONE!
Everyday-i send love in my rituals..to this board..i really do care about our gang..the beauty-everyone is welcome..we are all here to connect/get support-etc..
As you can see-We all love you very much-
i wish you all good things/
ggrl

Twinlynn
12-05-2004, 08:08 AM
Dear friends, :wave:

Well, guys, reading all your newer (and rereading your older) heartfelt posts--Dallas, El, Ggrl, Christianmom, Agent, Marilyn, Kuno, Baseball, et al--sure got my day back on track, after struggling to awaken from this classic "failure" nightmare that invaded my sleeping brain during the moments just before I awoke this morning (the second nightmare in two days)!! Aaarrrggghhh. :eek:

And it wasn't even about the drugs--it was about my JOB--you know the sort---your boss rants and raves in a furious-frenzy with you, your coworkers look helplessly on, as if viewing from the bleachers....and, of course...absolutely no sensible, truthful defense of yourself and your actions makes the slightest bit of difference! And...to top it off....in classic nightmare style...your office looks somehow "wrong." LOL!!! :-) (Being on disability leave from work for the last 4 months for a foot injury, tho, might have had something to do with that dream-theme!! Ho ho ho.) At any rate--shaking off the residue of this nightmare--and coming to the computer and reading thru everyone's fantastic posts--was just the best reality check for me!

As you have all said, there is such a strong sense--and such a relief--of being amongst friends who can empathize and understand. This sort of friendship has helped me immensely. Dallas just spoke of her wish that she had not let good friends drift away, during her isolationist "pill" years. And...that struck me so vividly.....the realization that, no matter how "nicely" we did it....we somehow managed to convey to friends who cared for us, that we "needed our private time"---that they did not fit into our world. For years, I wouldn't admit that to myself...and I would feel reassured that that my closer friendships flourished. (which was sort of easy for me, since I've never been a great socializer, preferring quiet evenings with a good book or time to do drawing, etc.) But Dallas is so right...we have all manipulated our time and the extent of our emotional support to fit into our ever-expanding need to make time for our best friends...our pills. I know that I have a lot of rebuilding to do to bring older friendships back onto the close level--where they once stood. (You know, Dallas, if you start by building bridges with those you were closest to....I'd bet that if you shared with them the truth of your past years (maybe even your girlhood trauma)....they would make a great effort to be close with you again...and to share that love they first felt towards you.) I know that I'm going to try that with my two closest friends. I guess I should grab a notebook--and just start writing goals. I'm not a real NA person, or "12-Steps"--because I've never been comfortable in "groups"--but I'm very attuned to mending relationships, letting go when necessary and sharing with others.

At the moment, it is so hard to imagine just what it will feel like to have all this "real" time on my hands!! To FEEL something....to WANT to leave the house....have dinner with a friend....go ANYWHERE in the evening (a play, a gallery)...or even take a vacation! It had all just grown nearly impossible....and had snuck up on me so stealthfully! There was no "one moment" when it happened...I just suddenly realized that the door had closed!.

By the way, Dallas, I liked the philosophical story you shared in your last paragraph. I ALSO had a big laugh over your "cleaning closets" prediction! I'll have to let you know! LOL!! (I am SO glad you saw our post on the board...I was really worried that you might not be checking in with us, again. Now, THAT would be a personal tragedy for me, dear friend! :-) :cool:

As Christianmom, also expressed, you really do start to share real friendships here and become close to one another. And being able to talk with others having the same experiences can be near-miraculous when you've feeling so "low" about life.

ELNYC - So...you are a New York City girl, as well!! (And my age! Hallelujah--you will "get" any allusions I make to the "good old days"! LOL!! It was lonely here, being the oldest! :D I do remember how in the '70's, benzos were "the" addiction drugs. I recently read some books from that time by two women (in television journalism, I think), who were practically psychotic from being over-prescribed all these "relaxers." It was so strange how medical science seemed to have absolutely no idea of what all this stuff did! I remember, in 1971, when I was living and working in London, my doctor would prescribe Valium, as if it was over-the-counter. It made me feel too dopey to function, I remember...but I still recall this doctor telling me "hey, they're fine...I take two every morning to get started." YIKES--a DOCTOR. I didn't even want to go NEAR what he took as his work day picked up speed! LOL! :D (I do remember taking him off my list of doctors after that!!)

Well, El, if you are ever exploring the Upper West Side or walking along Riverside Park and the Hudson River, and see me walking two "wee beasties"--a Lhasa and a Peke-mix--give me a shout hello!! I admire you so much for sixteen years off drugs!

I promise everyone here that I will keep up my accounts of how I fare on the Suboxone. Today, I am feeeling a combination of nerves and a bit of depression and "insecurity". But, I know what it's all about--and can deal with it! And I have to say that I am very excited as well!! Oh, do I want to be NORMAL again! I awoke at 3 .m., this morning, having to take an oxy "nibble", just so I could stop withdrawal from keeping me awake. It has gotten so awful.

So, all, please keep posting!! And, Dallas, how is the Methadone dosage working for you--do you feel stablized, yet? That was originally a drug I'd considered, too.

Oh...last thing, Dallas--was fascinated to hear you say that you heard a difference between how Alice and I express ourselves! We, of course, know that we have definable differences....but very few people seem to take that time to diffrentiate between us, like you have. As we used to tell people at school--it's not that we're so identical that you can't tell us apart--it's that you haven't taken the time to know which traits apply to which twin!!! LOL!!! (Just how do you view our main difference, if you have time to write?)

Okay, bye to all and love ya all, xxx Lynn :jester:

Baseball65
12-05-2004, 09:50 AM
That is soo weird.

I used to have those exact dreams.....failure....i let my whole life go by....I was high the whole time and now everybody just goes on without me.

Funny...we're all the same inside.The dreams have just started to go away,but I had them for years.....Must be something there.

Freud said our subconscious is like a maximum security prison,with all the worst inmates forever trying to escape, and occasionally doing so in our dreams.

In waking,our ego kicks in,and to keep the inmated repressed we have some sort of "symptom" to distract us....

Need to investigate further

YOU GO GIRL!!!

baseball65

kuno
12-05-2004, 10:46 AM
I have a appointment on Monday as a followup with my doc. He is a great doc and if you have any questions I would be happy to ask him any questions you have if you wanna know something up front.

Twinlynn
12-05-2004, 12:36 PM
Hey, Baseball - I see our failure dreams as glaring red arrows pointing out just what, where, how and why we "went wrong". I know these dreams are common...and, yes, I used to have them them "off" and "on"---but, now unfortunately, they are ALWAYS "on"!! LOL!! And they get narrower and narrower in scope of plot...and cast of characters!! In fact, they are downright tedious!! A definite thumbs down from Ebert and Co. And, even though I approach them honestly, analyze them brutally-- with plenty of nasty mental self-flaggeration thrown in (for repentance)--they STILL won't work themselves out of my unconscious and give my dreamlife a break! :-)

Have you ever read Freud's "The Psychopathology of Everyday Life", by the way? (Written, I think, before his more structured psychoanalysis days.) In this book, Freud does not stick to "dream analysis", per se....but he repeats, over and over, how nothing we "accidentally" say or do in life is truly just a "slip"--a "mistake". And...while I always disputed this book, from the first time I read it, "way back when" in college...I can now see his point just a little bit better! :-)

Anyway....I wonder if, in general, we drug people, have more "failure" dreams than average. The only OTHER dream I ever have is that I find a bonanza of pills--fallen on the ground...and unnoticed by anyone. So....I am frantically--but unobtrusively--scooping them up off the ground, into my tote bag, before anyone else notices them! (In the dream, the oxys and Vics--just like the cashews in a mixed-assortment of nuts--are always less plentiful than the other varieties of pills scattered around....so I keep trying desperately to scoop up the "right" pills....and not, say, the Excedrins! LOL!! It's really tough waking up after those dreams! Waking up--and discovering it was just a dream--is the REAL mightmare. Ho ho

Kuno - Thanks so much for your offering to get info. for Alice and I re the Sub. That is SO nice. I do need to find out the exact difference between Suboxone...and Subutex...but I'm sure my doctor will explain that on Tuesday. I'm also wondering how long I'll need to face withdrawal between the time of my last pill...and the actual taking of the first Sub. (My daily drug "intake" has been (to my disgust...and fear)about four 40 mg oxys....but am just about out of them anyway. Which means I hope I can start the Sub asap.) I wish I'd called the doctor earlier and hadn't been such a procrastinator. Still....I'm lucky to get the appt. as early in the week as I did. That's great that you're going with a friend--so that you can share your experiences of the Sub. By the way.....er.......I'm sorry....but I just don't know if "Kuno" is male or female?? <insert embarrassed grin> !!! So....I'm not being at all "gender-specific". LOL!! :-)

Have a good appt. tomorrow--I'm looking forward to hearing all about it! Lynn

billy
12-05-2004, 01:51 PM
Be careful with the suboxone, I'm having a hard time kicking this drug and I only took it for a short time at a low dose.

billy
12-05-2004, 01:54 PM
Anyway....I wonder if, in general, we drug people, have more "failure" dreams than average. The only OTHER dream I ever have is that I find a bonanza of pills--fallen on the ground...and unnoticed by anyone. So....I am frantically--but unobtrusively--scooping them up off the ground, into my tote bag, before anyone else notices them! (In the dream, the oxys and Vics--just like the cashews in a mixed-assortment of nuts--are always less plentiful than the other varieties of pills scattered around....so I keep trying desperately to scoop up the "right" pills....and not, say, the Excedrins! LOL!! It's really tough waking up after those dreams! Waking up--and discovering it was just a dream--is the REAL mightmare. Ho ho

Have a good appt. tomorrow--I'm looking forward to hearing all about it! Lynn
Its common for people quitting addictive drugs to have bizzare, nightmarish dreams about taking them.

kuno
12-05-2004, 04:14 PM
I know that subutex is the cheaper drug and tends to be used for people who are "non-IV" users. Suboxone is more for the IV users as it can not be injected and reduces that temptation for them. Suboxone is more expensive as well. Judging by what I can tell from your history of usage, I would say they will go with subutex. How long you have to wait is sorta iffy. I think it depends on what drug you took last. You need to be in moderate withdraw to start it, so it could only be 4-6 hours for hydro and 24 for methodone. I would imagine with Oxy it would be 8-12 or so. I recommend making hydro your last drug used so you can take your last dose 8 hours or so before you go in and you should be fine. The doctor will be more specific, but you must be careful. If you are not in withdraws enough the drug can actually send you into "acute withdraws" when you first take it!

I am a young male by the way! ;)

Brenda1231
12-06-2004, 01:38 PM
I know that subutex is the cheaper drug and tends to be used for people who are "non-IV" users. Suboxone is more for the IV users as it can not be injected and reduces that temptation for them. Suboxone is more expensive as well. Judging by what I can tell from your history of usage, I would say they will go with subutex. How long you have to wait is sorta iffy. I think it depends on what drug you took last. You need to be in moderate withdraw to start it, so it could only be 4-6 hours for hydro and 24 for methodone. I would imagine with Oxy it would be 8-12 or so. I recommend making hydro your last drug used so you can take your last dose 8 hours or so before you go in and you should be fine. The doctor will be more specific, but you must be careful. If you are not in withdraws enough the drug can actually send you into "acute withdraws" when you first take it!

I am a young male by the way! ;)

I wanted to clear misconceptions here, but please don't feel I am attacking you, I am not.

There are MANY, MANY misconceptions about Suboxone and Subutex.
I am on Suboxone, and have been on it at varying doses since May. I have Nver used any IV drug. I also attend a buprenorphine support group 2 X's a month, as well as doing al I can rearseaching it and talking to other Sub patients online.

Subutex and Suboxone are both buprenorphine the only difference between the two is that naloxone is added to Suboxone. However, the naloxone does nothing sublingually, otherwise it would block the buprenorphine, and cause w/d.

The Suboxone is not primarily prescribed to IV users, but is primarily prescribed to ALL users.

Some doctors initially prescribe subutex, in case there is any opiate liftover in your system, then they switch you to suboxone.
None of it makes much sense, since the naloxone isn't very effective sublingually anyway, and either formula can cause withdrawal symptoms if taken too soon after your last opiate usage. The naloxone is mainly added to prevent abuse; such as crushing and injecting the sub, or selling it to iv users who would do so. Buprenorphine, crushed and snorted or injected, can produce a high, but does not do so taken as intended, sublingually
Oddly, most can take opiates on top of the sub, w/o any negative repercussions. BUT you will not Feel the opiates either, the sub blocks them. Although of course, this is not reccomended, as there is a chance of precipitating w/d. I have done this, and had no w/d, but no pain relief or 'buzz' from hydro either.

The dosage, induction, period of time sub is prescribed, all vary enormously from Dr to Dr.
Remember, both these drugs are tightly controlled and monitored, as well as being fairly newly approved. (2 years)

In order for A doctor to prescribe sub they must have a special DEA number, in addition to their regular one. BUT they only need to complete an 8 hour course to get that number. Keeping in mind that MOSt Doctors didn't jump in and take the course as soon as it became available, nor have they taken it themselves, I don't think many Doctor's can be classified as experts on Sub, IMHO :rolleyes:

Also, sub is unique in that it has a ceiling affect. Taking more does not increase the effects, but can actually negate it, causing negative effects.
Therein lies the problem with Sub. Some Dr.s write scripts for a set amount, ranging from 2mg to 32mg a day. Others have you keep taking a pill (2 or 4 mg) every hour or so, until all w/d is gone, and then dose you at whatever amount it took to allieve w/d (up to 32mg).

One word of advice from personal experience, start low and stay low. Low doses seem to cause some pain relief, antidepressant qualities, and just an energetic, 'good' feeling.
BUT, increasing doses do not provide the above, and one can't seem to go back.

I felt best at around 6 mg a day, although my Dr. prescribed 24 mg. At 4-6 mg I had no w/d and I felt great. No fatigue, no aches and pains, and most importantly to me, no depression. I was happy, energetic, and felt like I had never gotten addicted to hydro in the first place. But not high or buzzed. Higher doses gave me headaches and nausea, and my depression returned. BUT wen I reduced my dose back to the 4-6 mg a day, the headaches and nausea were gone, but so were the antidepressant qualities that I initially experienced.
I tried for months to adjust my dosage up and down. I even went back to hydro for a couple weeks and then went back to the sub. I still have fatigue and depression.

So anyway, I would suggest using the lowest dose possible to allieve w/d symptoms.

Hope12
12-06-2004, 03:25 PM
OH OH OH OH-OMIGOD!!!How ABSOLUTELY FREAKIN WONDERFUL!!!!I just,oh jeez,I don't know-I AM SO HAPPY AND SO EXCITED FOR YOU!!!!Both of you deserve nothing but the best in life,and there's no other better way then to do it clean!! How powerful you guys are going to be!!!!Oh Lord,I'm just not sure if the world is ready!!!I have to cut this short because I have to pick my daughter up from work,but I swear to GOD I am jumping up and down for you guys right now!!!(6'feet,200 lbs.,no easy feat,let me tell you)I can't WAIT to hear how your appointment goes,and I want you BOTH to know I have kept you in my thoughts and prayers,no matter how quietly,that you two would eventually do this in your own time,when it was right for you.I am SO PROUD and HAPPY for you,don't be scared,a wonderful new journey awaits you!!!
Much love and courage
Stacie

Best Friend
12-06-2004, 04:50 PM
<<OH OH OH OH-OMIGOD!!!How ABSOLUTELY FREAKIN WONDERFUL!!!!I just,oh jeez,I don't know-I AM SO HAPPY AND SO EXCITED FOR YOU!!!!>>

Stacie - We just have to say - "WOW! What a SUPER reaction!" :D Will keep you updated. It is SOOOOO good to have friends like you.
A & L :wave: :wave:

Baseball65
12-06-2004, 07:03 PM
Hi lynn

I actually dosed dwon again today,and feel better again...everything in brenda's post was pretty much gospel-truth so I'll add little.

I'm on a suboxone users forum as well,and I've noticed I don't seem to have the emotional and physical problems that some of the higher dose members do.G-girl,Agentalias,Brenda and Michael(savedbysuboxone) were all instrumental in guiding me to dose down.My Doc rules,and is well meaning,but I think he's always errs a little on the High side(no pun)

I read on the sub forum that the guideline a lot of doctors use is 2mgs sub=10mgs hydro....+ or -...so for instance,I was 10-14 lortabs/day (this time) so he started me at 20,went up as high as 28,and then rapidly(over a 2 week period) got down to 16....2 weeks to 8

..and now down to 6 and feeling AOK excellent....I never even think of Hydro anymore.

The best part though,is you never have to guess when to dose down...your body will tell you....if your jonesy/cravy your too low and if your sleepy/nauseous your too high OR it's time to dose down.

all week this week I was feeling more and more nauseous from my PM dose of 4,so I cut my AM dose to 2(6 total)

see..it's virtually self-regulating.

anyways,I'm really happy for you and will be checking to see your first post sub posts.

you rule

mlrr

lisaaahubb
12-06-2004, 07:20 PM
OMG!!!! I am so dam happy for you two. I can't wait for the update, don't be nervous you are DEFINITELY doing the right thing. Look at how many lives sub has changed on the board...it is truly a livesaver and you guys are gonna be able to witness it first hand. Getting off of oxy's is NO cake-walk, and sub. really seems like the way to go. My friend is STILL sick from oxy w/d and has many months sober, i guess it is called PAWS or something. But i just know if you know you aren't gonna w/d and have that awful depression, then getting off of opiates is SO much easier. I just used ultram to get off of vikes not that long ago. It wasn't easy the first week or so, but i quickly tapered off of them too. Sobriety feels so much clearer, i just feel better. You guys will see TOMORROW!!!! Please please post tomorrow as soon as you guys can...i need to be updated. I am in the east too, are you guys getting snow and ice??? We are...already a few inches on the ground and supposed to be sleeting all night. I will be praying and thinking of you two often tomorrow!
luv,
LISA

kuno
12-06-2004, 10:07 PM
I wanted to clear misconceptions here, but please don't feel I am attacking you, I am not.

There are MANY, MANY misconceptions about Suboxone and Subutex.
I am on Suboxone, and have been on it at varying doses since May. I have Nver used any IV drug. I also attend a buprenorphine support group 2 X's a month, as well as doing al I can rearseaching it and talking to other Sub patients online.

Subutex and Suboxone are both buprenorphine the only difference between the two is that naloxone is added to Suboxone. However, the naloxone does nothing sublingually, otherwise it would block the buprenorphine, and cause w/d.

The Suboxone is not primarily prescribed to IV users, but is primarily prescribed to ALL users.

Some doctors initially prescribe subutex, in case there is any opiate liftover in your system, then they switch you to suboxone.
None of it makes much sense, since the naloxone isn't very effective sublingually anyway, and either formula can cause withdrawal symptoms if taken too soon after your last opiate usage. The naloxone is mainly added to prevent abuse; such as crushing and injecting the sub, or selling it to iv users who would do so. Buprenorphine, crushed and snorted or injected, can produce a high, but does not do so taken as intended, sublingually
Oddly, most can take opiates on top of the sub, w/o any negative repercussions. BUT you will not Feel the opiates either, the sub blocks them. Although of course, this is not reccomended, as there is a chance of precipitating w/d. I have done this, and had no w/d, but no pain relief or 'buzz' from hydro either.

The dosage, induction, period of time sub is prescribed, all vary enormously from Dr to Dr.
Remember, both these drugs are tightly controlled and monitored, as well as being fairly newly approved. (2 years)

In order for A doctor to prescribe sub they must have a special DEA number, in addition to their regular one. BUT they only need to complete an 8 hour course to get that number. Keeping in mind that MOSt Doctors didn't jump in and take the course as soon as it became available, nor have they taken it themselves, I don't think many Doctor's can be classified as experts on Sub, IMHO :rolleyes:

Also, sub is unique in that it has a ceiling affect. Taking more does not increase the effects, but can actually negate it, causing negative effects.
Therein lies the problem with Sub. Some Dr.s write scripts for a set amount, ranging from 2mg to 32mg a day. Others have you keep taking a pill (2 or 4 mg) every hour or so, until all w/d is gone, and then dose you at whatever amount it took to allieve w/d (up to 32mg).

One word of advice from personal experience, start low and stay low. Low doses seem to cause some pain relief, antidepressant qualities, and just an energetic, 'good' feeling.
BUT, increasing doses do not provide the above, and one can't seem to go back.

I felt best at around 6 mg a day, although my Dr. prescribed 24 mg. At 4-6 mg I had no w/d and I felt great. No fatigue, no aches and pains, and most importantly to me, no depression. I was happy, energetic, and felt like I had never gotten addicted to hydro in the first place. But not high or buzzed. Higher doses gave me headaches and nausea, and my depression returned. BUT wen I reduced my dose back to the 4-6 mg a day, the headaches and nausea were gone, but so were the antidepressant qualities that I initially experienced.
I tried for months to adjust my dosage up and down. I even went back to hydro for a couple weeks and then went back to the sub. I still have fatigue and depression.

So anyway, I would suggest using the lowest dose possible to allieve w/d symptoms.

No offense taken. I dont really know much about Suboxone. Thanks for the info!

Twinlynn
12-07-2004, 07:29 AM
Brenda1231 - Thanks for a particularly appropros post for my twin and I--who have a Suboxone doctor's appts in about 6 hours!! :-) (We are soooo nervous...and excited!!)

Your conclusions about the lower dosage particularly struck me--and I'll be discussing this with my doctor this afternoon. I also wondered if you are already taking antidepresants (as I am--Wellbutrin and Prozac)--so that any factors, say dosage levels, that affect the antidepressant benefits of the Suboxone will be "covered" for you. Depression is almost always so mixed in with withdrawal. In fact, for me, the ability of Suboxon to prevent that overwhelming depression that follows every sudden withdrawal from drugs...is the main reason I've been able to face going off the opiates!

best of luck to you and thanks for your invaluable advice! Lynn :-)

Brenda1231
12-07-2004, 09:19 AM
From Twin:

"Depression is almost always so mixed in with withdrawal. In fact, for me, the ability of Suboxon to prevent that overwhelming depression that follows every sudden withdrawal from drugs...is the main reason I've been able to face going off the opiates:"

This is my case as well; both the depression and fatigue, kept me going back to hydro.

I cold turkeyed off of high doses of hydro a few times.
This was back before I decided to 'educate' myself on opiates, tolerance, withdrawal aids, etc. So when I say cold turkey, I mean just that, no benzo's, vitamins, herbs, or other w/d relief items I have become aware of since then.

I could get through the first few days; although I did have extreme withdrawal, and could not function at all until at least day 4.
Usually day 4 or 5, the pain and vomiting, and muscle aches would let up, replaced by a fatigue so extreme I could barely keep my eyes open, much less take care of a toddler and preschooler. A little hydro, and I could move again.
So, it would be after what most consider the 'hard part' that I caved in.

Anyway, about the antidepressants; I have been on and off of antidepressants for the last 10 years.
My Sub Dr. didn't immediately put me on antidepressants, because Sub has some A/D qualities for some people.
I am now on Wellbutrin, but can't say that it seems to be helping much. I started on some different vitamins and amino acids a couple days ago, and am hoping those will help out.

Good luck with your appt, I am really interested to see how it goes for you. It's just odd how differently Dr.'s handle Sub induction, and how different we all react to it.
You are armed with a lot of advice and info, so I am confident all will go well.
:)

Best Friend
12-07-2004, 10:37 AM
You guys will all be leaving with us for the appointment one hour from now....thanks so much for your wisdom...we just can't tell you enough how much your being along for the journey is going to help us take each step! We love you guys so much!!! :-) :-) xxx Lynn and Alice xxx

Best Friend
12-07-2004, 10:51 AM
You guys will all be leaving with us for the appointment one hour from now....thanks so much for your wisdom...we just can't tell you enough how much your being along for the journey is going to help us take each step! We love you guys so much!!! :-) :-) xxx Lynn and Alice xxx

christianmom
12-07-2004, 11:23 AM
Lynn & Alice!

I'm SOOOO excited for the both of you!!!! I can't wait until you all are able to check back in with us, and to let us know how it all went. My every thought & prayer are with you both....best of luck and CONGRATULATIONS on taking the biggest, most important step in your entire lives!!!!! You both are my inspiration!!!!!!

Brenda1231
12-07-2004, 11:26 AM
Hi lynn

I actually dosed dwon again today,and feel better again...everything in brenda's post was pretty much gospel-truth so I'll add little.

I'm on a suboxone users forum as well,and I've noticed I don't seem to have the emotional and physical problems that some of the higher dose members do.G-girl,Agentalias,Brenda and Michael(savedbysuboxone) were all instrumental in guiding me to dose down.My Doc rules,and is well meaning,but I think he's always errs a little on the High side(no pun)



Hi Baseball!

I am really glad that you are doing well. I have been under the weather for some time, and although I 'pop' in here, I don't read all the threads, and don't really post unless I think it is important, or I think Ihave something helpful to add.

I have been thinkin about you, though, and wishing you well.

WOW! Down to 6 mg! That's wonderful. I think you were up there the last I read. 24 or so mg?
Anyway, 6 will be so much better.


BUT, be careful from here on out. I have read that under 8 mg. it gets harder and harder to cut your dose.

PS. Can you PM me the Sub forum you are reading? I was reading one, but it has been down for awhile, and I think may have disappeared.

billy
12-08-2004, 08:57 AM
suboxone is great if it gets you off street drugs, but be careful. I took only 4mg/d for 2 months and had a hell of time getting to zero.