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View Full Version : Desperate for help... high E2, low T, adrenal collapse, hashi's, Male 26!


Matty
08-02-2007, 06:46 AM
Hi everyone.

Need your thoughts on some really messed up hormones I have. 26 year old male...

About 5 months ago I finally figured out why my health felt like the pits, pulling the following poor cortisol and thyroid results:

Cortisol:

7:00 - 8:00 AM was 1 (Depressed) - Ref. 13-24nM
11:00 - Noon was 2 (Depressed) - Ref. 5-10nM
04:00 - 05:00PM was 1 (Depressed) - Ref. 3-8nM
11;00 - Midnight was <1 (Depressed) - Ref. 1-4nM

Cortisol Burden was 5 - Ref. 23-42
DHEA is 5 (Normal) - Ref. Adults was 3-10ng/ml

Thyroid:

fTSH - 311 (High) - Ref. Borderline Low: 20-25 nIu/ml / Normal: 26-85 nIU/ml / Borderline High: 86-120 nIU/ml
fT4 - 0.20 (Normal) - Ref. Normal: 0.17-0.42 ng/dl
fT3 - 0.34 (Normal) - Ref. Borderline Low: 0.21-0.27 pg/ml / Normal: 0.28-1.10 pg/ml
TPO (Thyroid Microsomal Ab, SIgA) - Positive - Ref. Normal: Negative

5 months later I have the adrenals and thyroid in check (with HC and dessicated thyroid).

** However my sex hormones are a mess. Keep in mind these are basic saliva tests I have done for these:

February, 2007:

E2 (Estradiol) - 5 - Ref. Male (20-49 yrs): 1-3 pg/ml Male (50-85 yrs): 1-5pg/ml
P1 (Progesterone) - 27 - Ref: Male (adult): 5-95 pg/ml
TTF (Free Testosterone) - 22 - Ref. Male (20-30 yrs): 60-110pg/ml

June, 2007:

E2 (Estradiol) - 5 - Ref. Male (20-49 yrs): 1-3 pg/ml Male (50-85 yrs): 1-5pg/ml
P1 (Progesterone) - 28 - Ref: Male (adult): 5-95 pg/ml
TTF (Free Testosterone) - 23 - Ref. Male (20-30 yrs): 60-110pg/ml

For my sex hormones, I basically went on all natural while I addressed my adrenals and thyroid, to see if I could make a dent. I always knew that knowing sex hormones was almost like it's own beast. Now I'm in the nitty gritty of it, but still trying to paint a clear picture and path to wellness. Anyways, from about April to June I was taking PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM, zinc, & magnesium in maximum dosages (up to three pills of DIM a day at one point). During this time, the DIM had a great impact on my sex drive. I was gaining awesome erections - in fact only until about three weeks ago this was the case - and then I went back to normal. I have since stopped these items to see if my drive comes back and will try to adjust DIM dosage.

Of course, the saliva panel above shows no changes. I'm fine with that because I know saliva isn't the best for sex hormone testing. Yesterday I asked that my doctor write me up for the following (blood) testing (taken from TRT: recipe for success):

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable Testosterone (AKA “Free and Loosely Bound”)
• Free Testosterone (if Bioavailable T is unavailable)
• SHBG
• DHT
• Estradiol (specify “ultrasensitive” assay for males)
• LH
• FSH
• Prolactin
• Cortisol
• Thyroid Panel
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA (if over 40)
• IGF-1 (if HGH therapy is being considered)

Clearly I have a very high E2 for a 26 year old male. Clearly all of my hormones seem to be messed up - perhaps indicating secondary across the board. But my doctor did pull my LH, FSH, and Prolactin previously and according to him (over the phone, thus no ranges), they all fell within normal still although LH and FSH may have been on the lower side.

Now reading all of these notes about the havoc E2 can wreak on the hormonal balance in general, I need a course of action with regard to my estrogen. My adrenals and thryoid are being supported, so I'm not worried about them right now. But I need to figure out more about what's going on here...

I've read a lot about tumors on here. And knowing that some can be estrogen producing - also something is pushing my TSH super high despite non-existent adrenals and what seems to be messed up testosterone.

I have asked for the tests as listed above. If I'm high on E2 still, I'm asking for Arimidex. And judging on the results, hopefully can determine primary vs. secondary. Otherwise I'm just going to try HCG first.

However it isn't clear enough to me re: secondary and what to look for. I believe my doctor has done prolactin, LH, and FSH before and all - while normal - were low normal if I remember correctly. Which wasn't cause for pituitary alarm at the time I take it. What is my argument if those same results come back? I hear if LH and FSH are both low normal, it could be pituitary.

Bengie
08-02-2007, 01:02 PM
I think you should have your doctor do an mri of your pituitary gland (I can never spell that right) and go to a endo for your hormon problems. An endo might actually be able to tell you why this stuff is happening.

hayfarmer
08-02-2007, 06:03 PM
Not all pituitary tumors are prolactin secreting so you still need an MRI if you are secondary. The definition of secondary is if LH/FSH are not high while total T is low. So even if they (LH/FSH) are in the normal range while T is low then you are secondary. There are many reasons you could be secondary though and you are on to one with high E2. The reason you are secondary determines the best treatment course. If it's high E2 then DIM, Resveratrol, zinc, chrysin gel can all be used together if necessary. Arrimidex is a last resort drug. You can also lower E2 by losing body fat, limiting alcohol consumption.

Matty
08-03-2007, 06:41 AM
Thanks hay!!

Can I ask you something though? I don't understand how high E2 can be a reason for secondary? How does estrogen impact the pituitary? How does it impact thyroid and adrenals?

Just curious. I have heard lots about the havoc E2 can wreak. And it appears that I am secondary (because my doctor said my LH and FSH were low normal over the phone, albeit without ranges). However I will have specific ranges by end of month.

But how could E2 cause low LH and FSH? How could it make secondary?

Thanks so much hay!

Matty
08-03-2007, 07:20 AM
I should say -

It also looks like I am secondary adrenal as well.

My situation is cloudy because not all of thyroid (high TSH), adrenals (flatlined, some DHEA), and sex hormones (high E2, low T) are on par with each other.

For example from what I've read high TSH in my case could indicate TSH secreting tumor, or the more likely Hashi's.

Flatlined adrenals could indicate primary or the more likely secondary. Cortisol isn't being made so it isn't being bound by estrogen. The low DHEA points to secondary as well.

And then there is my E2/T ratio which makes no sense. I guess I need to get that E2 down to untangle this pretzel next, because I need to know if T will produce on its own.

Overall I just don't understand the high TSH if there is pituitary problems. Like I said the picture is hardly clear and the three areas of hormones are really giving different pictures each.

Jinxy285
08-03-2007, 09:41 AM
my 2 cents!!! Why High E2 can cause low T... Aramotase causes T to convert to E2. The E2 binds to the same receptors as T. SO, your body believes you have enough T and does not send a signal to produce more, LH and FSH, so this is the problem... If you can address the problem of WHY the T is being converted to E2 then you may be able to solve this problem without meds... Try taking zinc... if needed try loosing weight, if you drink alot cut back or stop until this problem is resolved.. Read the T syndrome by Eugene Shippen.... very informative... Reservatrol and DIM can also help but I think that you should address health issues and deficiancies before you add anything in... also, I strongle believe that getting quality sleep regurlarly helps with hormone issues also becuase the bulk of hormone production is done when you are asleep...do not take this for granted....

Matty
08-03-2007, 10:03 AM
Thanks for the reply...

Can I tell you something funny (to me)? I weigh 160 pounds. I am a thin guy for 6 feet tall. Problem is almost every piece of meat on my body is fat - it's extremely odd. You would think I would be a bigger guy with an E2 like that.

I don't drink much either. Now that it's summer I drink a bit more but it's not enough to change things drastically I can say that.

In the winter for example, I was on an insane diet really. It was so strict. Because my adrenals are hammered and I need to avoid all stimulants as much as possible, I cut out sugar and sodium.

I was down to 150 for my wedding last December and it was all fat still. I wouldn't touch any sweets, it was almost fully protein-laden. And it didn't seem to help my Ts.

DIM has brought back the erections. I have been taking zinc and magneisum in combination. All in max dosages to try and hammer at the E2 and bump it off... hoping for some more T conversion (zinc mag combo is supposed to raise Ts). But my new saliva labs (at least) showed no change in the ratio. I need blood lab results to be sure, but it looks like the DIM is just metabolizing temporarily but not actually dropping E2, or creating breathing room for T conversion.

Not sure how I got here really. To this ratio I mean. I went on Accutane and smoked a lot of marijuana in the process which may have done something. Or sometimes I think I may have been genetically predis to it as my dad has a similar body type. And I was not the leanest kid growing up either...

Jinxy285
08-03-2007, 10:51 AM
Your problem seems to be very complex... I would think an MRI might be in order.... as far as DIM is concerned...what is your timing on your doses? I ask becuase I felt best when I took 2 doses per day split into AM and PM doses, the PM dose being right before sleep... I am currently trying a product called 6 oxo that is supposed to fight E2 and boost T, becuase of the E2 suppresion, do a web search and read about it.... interesting stuff... since you say you have a lot of body fat, have you ever tried any weight or strength training? I have read that consistent lifting can help increase T production... I also have read that too much cardio training can reduce T levels.... it is all politics and agendas of course but I think it is pretty well established that weight training can boost T and GH production...plus if you can recompose your body to a better muscle to fat ratio this cannot hurt with the aramotase issues.... remember that weight lifting does not have to mean body building...just consistant strenght training....

good luck...

421g
08-04-2007, 12:28 AM
matty,are you saying that you think that accutane is raising yor e2 ??glad to see that you are geting some replys here.i have heard and read that mary jane can raise e2 and that drinking can too and some foods.

Matty
08-06-2007, 06:48 AM
Hey 421 - thanks for the welcome!

I was on accutane before and I question how it operates in eliminating acne. I had a lot of acne, oily skin... usually linked to good T if I am not mistaken. Perhaps its a coincidence but all of these T problems happened after accutane and marijuana.

Marijuana did a lot I'm sure... but I'm wondering if accutane didn't have a hand in everything as well.

hayfarmer
08-06-2007, 10:10 PM
Jinxy covered this pretty well on why E2 can cause low LH and FSH. To add a little more detail, the E2 can bind to the same receptors in the hypothalmus that are meant to sense your T level. This tells the hypothalmus your T level is fine when it is actually low. So, the hypothalmus does not send much GnRH to your pituitary. GnRH tells the pituitary to make more LH and FSH. So now your LH/FSH are low and your testicles don't make much T.

The real question is why your E2 is so high. The body fat you describe fits with high E2 also. I have not heard of a TSH secreting tumor, you sure you don't mean prolactin secreting? You really need blood tests to double check the TSH level which seems very high. High TSH usually indicates low thyroid function. Low thyroid function can spiral into all sorts of problems including insulin resistance and low T so you need to get on top of that.

Matty
08-10-2007, 12:24 PM
Thanks Hay et. All!

I received updated blood lab results today. I could use additional feedback on this (although is looks like with my LH and FSH, I will need an MRI):

DHEA-S - 1.7 (Low) - Range 7.6 - 17.4, Units umol/L

Thyrotropin (Sensitive TSH) - 0.05 (Low) - Range 0.35 - 5.00, Units MIU/L
Free Triiodothyronine (FT3) - 6.3 (High) - Range 3.5 - 6.5, Units PMOL/L
Free Thyroxine (FT4) - 17 - Range 9-23, Units PMOL/L

Estradiol 17 Beta - 113 - Range UP TO 206, Units pmol/L
Bioavailable Testosterone - 4.7 - Range 3.0 - 16.0, Units nmol/L
Lutropin (LH) - 3 - Range 2-6, Units IU/L
Follitropin (FSH) - 2 - Range 2-8, Units IU/L
Prolactin - 9 - Range 1-18, Units UG/L
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) - 48 - Range 13-73, Units NMOL/L

I believe the DIM has dropped my blood E2…

Thoughts oh so appreciated!