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    Old 07-03-2003, 06:55 PM   #16
    eeyoretigger
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    successtory
    why do you say to use the tensunit only after i have some sort of treatment done??
    while i was in PT, the therapist tried it several times. helped for a short while but by my next visit a few days later i was right back with my original pain

     
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    Old 07-04-2003, 01:28 AM   #17
    successtory
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    Hi eeyoretigger,

    The reason I said the TENS unit is only for those after surgery (and I left of it is also for those that have stabilized without surgery). Stabilization. It is a must before using the TENS...otherwise, it will send your back into major spasms. Generally, the pains one feels after surgery is different from the pains leading up to the operation. Along with pain relief (hopefully)...the patient does not experience as many (if at all) back spasms anymore. Why? Because the nerve isn't being pinched anymore -- also, the injury has been "fixed" and your body will know the difference. It is usually the sharp pains that cause our muscles to spasm...and sending an electric current into a spasming muscle would be completely insane! After a "successful surgery", there are no more sharp pains, but there are pains from the instruments used during the operation and also pains from your muscles and nerves finally getting a bit of relaxation! (hehe)

    The TENS unit mostly keeps the muscles stimulated so they don't get fatigued so quickly (it doubles my time no matter what I am doing). And generally, the "TENS" unit used in a doctor's or PT's office is of the isometric kind (versus the electrical charges kind). The "regular" TENS unit puts out "superficial" currents to stimulate the muscles. Doctors think this unit takes the pain away. It does not. Like I mentioned above, it just re-directs it. The isometric kind of unit actually stimulates the tendons and ligaments to come together and heal. So that is prolly why your PT "stimulated" your back with those treatments.

    I saw you go to acupuncture. Got any acupressurists where you live? I (personally) like acupressure better than acupuncture. Acupressure is a balancing of energies, whereas acupuncture goes directly to the source at the offending nerve-line

    Good luck to you and take care
    .

    ------------------
    successtory
    Oct 2000: Repetitive Stress Injury-Inverted Hernia
    Feb 2001: MRI. Shows only slight bulge at L4-L5
    Dec 2001: Discogram/CT scan shows Inverted Hernia at L5-S1. L4-L5 & L5-S1 ruptured in all 4 quadrants. Unable to walk.
    Feb 2002: IDET, Nucleoplasty, Intra-Discal Injections
    Sept 2002: Rated in the top 10% for successful patients. Retraining for new career.

     
    Old 07-04-2003, 08:58 PM   #18
    carrington7
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    hi eeyoretigger,

    just wanted to add my two cents though I know you've heard a ton of advice already.. Most importantly, I just wanted to add that I am 27 years old and have been dealing with lots of pain for two years now. I have an L5-S1 tear with no real idea of how I did it. I tried three courses of PT, three epidural injections and most recently in February had IDET done which did nothign to help my constant pain in both of me legs and dull pain in my sacrum when I sit. I just couldn't understand how I could be dealign with this at such a young age and be so healthy in general otherwise. I had to quit my job and my pain has just gotten worse since onset. To make a long story short- understand that EVERY case is different and every patient is different. I for one, wanted to try IDET since it was worth a shot since it is so minimally invasive and can't do much "harm" (though some disagree with me I understand). Though IDET is a long recovery time the procedure is not painful- it is just the patience that mostly kills you "waiting" to see if it "worked". Since then, I have moved to Virginia and was lucky enough to get in touch with a spine surgeon here who is doing a study for the artificial disc. My outlook is that I want to do anything that might help me get my life back. I will not wait and hope and try more conservative therapy as my qaulity of life is so severely diminished. ANYWAYS, I just qualified for the study here and was lucky enough also to get the artificial disc rather than the replacement, BUT my surgeon was adamant (though this is just HIS opinion) that the new fusions they are doing usuign the InFuse cage system and going in through the front rather than the back would be a much better option rather than a standard fusion. Going in the front and not touching the laminas seems to prevent the problems associated with having a fusion at such a young age like we are- ie: having further complications down the road at other levels. So my advice all in all is talk talk talk to as many doctors as you can and get as many opinions as possible within your comfort level. There may be more options out there than you realize. Some docs and peop,le are anti-surgery, some may have thoughts that you had never thought of yourself before.....listen to everyone but ultimately listen to yourself too. One too many doctor told me to sort of "live with it" and I just know I can't do that...

    I hope you find some relief soon. I will be scheduling my disc replacement (using Maverick device) for August and can't wait. If you have any specific IDET questions or anything else let me know. Best wishes for the weekend.....

    [This message has been edited by carrington7 (edited 07-05-2003).]

     
    Old 07-06-2003, 03:27 PM   #19
    Prickly Pear
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    I'm a newbie and so glad that I found these boards.
    I had IDET an here is my story:I had 2 level IDET June 2002 for internal disc disruption and annular tears. It was performed by an anesthesiologist. I met the proper criteria for IDET.
    For me, the IDET itself was extremely painful. I did everything that I possibly could to promote a positive outcome. I was extremely careful. I wore my brace almost all the time. I exercised the proper way.
    However, my level of functioning was this: 9 weeks post IDET, I still could not even put on my shoes. I ended up catching my foot on a chair leg and the little toe into a nasty spiral fracture. Three weeks after the fracture, I couldn't walk at all. It took awhile to get a diagnosis. It went from RSD, to stress fracture. It turned out to be a double crush neuropathy. 8 weeks after breaking the toe, I was finally able to walk again. I just needed the stabilization exercises and some gentle management of my SI joint. Within one month of PT, I made EXCELLENT progress. I was sold on IDET.
    EMG/Nerve Conduction Studies done in November 2002 showed peroneal neuropathy from the toe fracture, without evidence of radiculopathy.

    However, on February 28, 2003, I saw a foot doctor about my toe. Without my consent or knowledge, he performed a nerve block on that foot and had me walk aggressively for 20 minutes. During this walking, my ankle ended up being inverted. This caused muscle spasms up the lateral calf, thigh, and hip. Then I got a sudden sharp pain in my back.

    It appeared at first that I had a stubborn SI joint problem. But, I just didn't improve. Physical therapy didn't help at all. My stretching exercises made the pain even worse. (I never ever had this problem before my IDET, NEVER.) My MRI didn't show anything significant. What was significantly abnormal was my EMG/Nerve Conduction Studies. The EMG showed acute and chronic radiculopathy. The EMG report is much worse than the pre-IDET report.

    I had a hard time trying to figure out what was causing the radiculopathy. I finally got an answer from a neurosurgeon. He said that he used to perform IDET. He said that my symptoms were present in about 2/3 of his post IDET patients. He said that they would improve for a few months and then the pain would return. He said my pain was discogenic. I probably had an annular tear. However, since the collagen has permanently changed with the IDET, what are the odds that it will repair on it's own?
    Common sense tells me that the disc has lost a lot of it's elasticity. About all I can do is wait for the nucleus to completely disintegrate. (I have no idea how long that will take. Anyone who has any info on this, I would greatly appreciate it.) If and when the nucleus disintegrates, then I don't know if it will increase my risk of stenosis. Anyone who has any info on this, I would appreciate.

    Or, I can have a fusion: They will remove the discs. Replace them with cages and Infuse bone marrow product and apply the rods and screws to the back.
    Or, wait for artificial discs.

    What I do find upseting is the research on IDET. It seems to show that it works in 66% of cases. However, my doctor said it only worked in 1/3 of the cases.

    Thanks bunch...and good luck
    Linda

    ------------------
    Fibromyalgia since 1988
    1988-2000: Back pain & sciatica off and on.
    Mar 2000: Auto accident
    Back pain & sciatica that would resolve with physical therapy, but would reoccur very shortly after PT dischage.
    (

    MRI Dec 2001:Bulging discs L4-L5 & L5-S1
    EMG Dec 2001: Minimal radiculopathy Diagnosis: DDD with mild radiculopathy

    February 2002: Stubborn sciatica returned. Discogram March 2002:
    Disrupted discs with annular tears L4-L5, L5-S1.

    IDET June 2002: L4-L5 & L5-S1

    IDET recovery: It was extremely painful for 12 weeks.

    Oct. 2002-February 2003
    Made great recovery.

    February 2003-Minor accident caused annular tear in at least L5-S1 disc.
    Unresponsive to consverative treatment, including PT and epidural steroids.
    April 2003 MRI: Almost same as 2002 MRI
    May 2003 EMG: Acute radiculopathy and chronic radiculopathy. Radiculopathy worse than Pre-IDET radiculopathy.
    Diagnosis: Annular tear/interal disc disruption that probably has no chance of healing on it's own due to permanent changes in disc elasticity from IDET. Disc nucleus is leaking into surrounding tissues and nothing is stopping it.


    Future: Undecided and waiting. Surgeon recommended 2 level anterior fusion with cages.
    Waiting to find out more about artificial discs.
    __________________
    Fibromyalgia since 1988
    1988-2000: Back pain & sciatica off and on.
    Mar 2000: Auto accident
    Back pain & sciatica that would resolve with physical therapy, but would reoccur very shortly after PT dischage.
    (

    MRI Dec 2001:Bulging discs L4-L5 & L5-S1
    EMG Dec 2001: Minimal radiculopathy Diagnosis: DDD with mild radiculopathy

    February 2002: Stubborn sciatica returned. Discogram March 2002:
    Disrupted discs with annular tears L4-L5, L5-S1.

    IDET June 2002: L4-L5 & L5-S1

    IDET recovery: It was extremely painful for 12 weeks.

    Oct. 2002-February 2003
    Made great recovery.

    February 2003-Minor accident caused annular tear in at least L5-S1 disc.
    Unresponsive to consverative treatment, including PT and epidural steroids.
    April 2003 MRI: Almost same as 2002 MRI
    May 2003 EMG: Acute radiculopathy and chronic radiculopathy. Radiculopathy worse than Pre-IDET radiculopathy.
    Diagnosis: Annular tear/interal disc disruption that probably has no chance of healing on it's own due to permanent changes in disc elasticity from IDET. Disc nucleus is leaking into surrounding tissues and nothing is stopping it.


    Future: Undecided and waiting. Surgeon recommended 2 level anterior fusion with cages.
    Waiting to find out more about artificial discs.

     
    Old 05-23-2007, 08:16 PM   #20
    RedangelJoy
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    Re: IDET / disc replacement

    [QUOTE=Telzey;105992]Hi eeyoretigger,
    Yes, I would definitely recommend trying all conservative treatments, like the McKenzie exercises, before you let someone burn your discs! Surgery should be thought of as a last resort when all other attempts have failed, or as an emergency treatment to prevent permanent nerve damage.

    I know it seems like forever to have been in pain, but I'm sorry to say that disc injuries take years to heal. By having the IDET, I was hoping for a quick fix, because I had become so impatient with my constant pain and my inability to lead an active life. Having the IDET injured my disc worse, so that now it will take it even longer to heal properly. Several years, probably. I wish I had just realized back in December that what I needed to do was devote several months to resting and healing my disc. If I had, I might be well and back to normal by now.

    Instead, what happened is that the IDET disabled me so badly I could barely get out of bed without excruciating pain. I couldn't even work at my desk job. I'm finally back at work, but I still can't lift over 5 lbs, walk very far, or sit very long. However, I am so much better than I was just 2 months ago that I no longer feel depressed. But I *could* do all those things pre-IDET, I just had some pain. What the IDET did for me, by making me so much worse, was adjust my attitude more than anything else. I realized how much better I was pre-IDET and how disabled it was possible to become! Now I have more patience to heal my disc. I realize that it will take a year or more, and after having been so badly disabled, I realize that there are worse things than not being able to sit on the floor or be active with my children. I now have the patience to stop looking for quick fixes.

    But, that's just my opinion and my particular story. I am anti-surgery because of how it turned out for me. There are others on this board who are very happy with their surgeries, and hopefully some of them will post so you can get other views.

    By the way, I posted a topic on an "interesting article on back surgery" a while back; you might try searching for that title.

    Best of luck,
    [img]http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/heart.gif[/img] Telzey

    ------------------
    4 years of back pain
    Annular tear L5-S1 diagnosed 5/02 via MRI
    IDET 12/2/02
    1/26/03 Posterior disc prolapse occurs after sitting too long after walking. Causes new pain down left leg.
    3/1/03 Leg pain reduced with exercises from the book "Treat Your Own Back" by Robin McKenzie.
    3/9/03 New buttock and thigh pain and numbness.
    3/25/03 Used McKenzie techniques to treat buttock and thigh pain -- pain reduced
    4/4/03 Started physical therapy
    5/8/03 Still worse than pre-IDET, but showing slow improvement with PT, McKenzie exercises, yoga, and Hanna Somatics exercises
    5/30/03 PT suggests buttock and thigh pain may be from facet joint[/QUOTE]
    I had the idet done on me back in Jan. 07, it is now May 23, 2007. I spent 2 months in bed because the pain was so bad after having the idet done. Two weeks after the idet I had a pain block which didn't do to much, I still could barely walk let alone sit. Five weeks later I had another pain block, then I could finally sit but only for like 10 min. I had another pain block two weeks later and have been about the same since....worse then before the idet. I get pains through my back like a leg cramp would feel or how labor pains feel. I move real slow, bend real slow just so I don't set these pains off. I can barely get into bed still at night cause of the pain. I am on pain meds. which do not do very much. I have just started taking arthrotec 2 weeks ago and that is helping some.....but still have the pains just not as often. My back always feels tired and it gets me down. I have ddd and artritis, the doc. said he "thinks" my pain is coming from the next disc up and wants to do the idet to that disc.....I went for a second opinion......that doc. told me all the idet did for me was to agervate what I already had. Like in otherwords if I would of had a broken leg it would of been like someone throwing a tree down on it and breaking it more. He also said this is going to be a long long long time in fixing.....and this is for life. I can just kick myself for ever having the idet done. I still have the old pain I had plus this new big time cramping pain. My back was so bad for 2 months after I only got out of bed to go to the bathroom. I had it down to where I would only have to get up 3-4 times in 24 hours. I also lost 20 pounds the first month after the idet. I had a few days where I couldn't bare the thought of even trying to sit down on the toliet so I took off my robe and got in the shower to pee. I still have to sit only in chair that have 2 arms on them so I can use them to get up and down. Just plain walking was a killer also, like I said 2 months straight in bed and 3 pain blocks later and now I am heading for pain management. I would never ever have another idet done.

     
    Old 02-08-2008, 12:02 AM   #21
    rachelzhu74
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    Re: IDET / disc replacement

    How are you doing right now? Feeling any better one year later after the IDET? Wish you the best!

    [QUOTE=RedangelJoy;3001807]I had the idet done on me back in Jan. 07, it is now May 23, 2007. I spent 2 months in bed because the pain was so bad after having the idet done. Two weeks after the idet I had a pain block which didn't do to much, I still could barely walk let alone sit. Five weeks later I had another pain block, then I could finally sit but only for like 10 min. I had another pain block two weeks later and have been about the same since....worse then before the idet. I get pains through my back like a leg cramp would feel or how labor pains feel. I move real slow, bend real slow just so I don't set these pains off. I can barely get into bed still at night cause of the pain. I am on pain meds. which do not do very much. I have just started taking arthrotec 2 weeks ago and that is helping some.....but still have the pains just not as often. My back always feels tired and it gets me down. I have ddd and artritis, the doc. said he "thinks" my pain is coming from the next disc up and wants to do the idet to that disc.....I went for a second opinion......that doc. told me all the idet did for me was to agervate what I already had. Like in otherwords if I would of had a broken leg it would of been like someone throwing a tree down on it and breaking it more. He also said this is going to be a long long long time in fixing.....and this is for life. I can just kick myself for ever having the idet done. I still have the old pain I had plus this new big time cramping pain. My back was so bad for 2 months after I only got out of bed to go to the bathroom. I had it down to where I would only have to get up 3-4 times in 24 hours. I also lost 20 pounds the first month after the idet. I had a few days where I couldn't bare the thought of even trying to sit down on the toliet so I took off my robe and got in the shower to pee. I still have to sit only in chair that have 2 arms on them so I can use them to get up and down. Just plain walking was a killer also, like I said 2 months straight in bed and 3 pain blocks later and now I am heading for pain management. I would never ever have another idet done.[/QUOTE]

     
    Old 02-08-2008, 02:22 PM   #22
    lizzybrog80
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    Re: IDET / disc replacement

    [QUOTE=eeyoretigger;105988]hi everyone!
    i've been kneeling in front of my computer for about the last two hours browsing through all the postings trying to find some info. i'm a 24 year old female in decent health. back in january i was shoveling the snow (not even an inch)when my back gave out. i never felt such horrible pain and i couldn't stand without my legs giving out from under me. that lasted for about 3-4 days before i was just stuck with the horrible pain. since then i've had terrible pain in my lower back, typically more my right side than the left. i can't sit for more than about 2 minutes (long enough to put on my shoes) and that's only been for about 2 months, since an epidural into L5-S1. when i sit, most the pain seems to be in my tailbone area. not even donuts or coccyx/hemmeriod pillows help any. on occasion i will get tingling down my legs but that's usually after twisting or bending in a way i probably shouldn't. nights are difficult because i have pain sleeping on both my stomach and my back so i usually end up on my sides. after spending about 30 minutes on my sides though my hip area (where the butt, leg, and back all meet) which lingers even once i've switched sides.

    my doctor has tried injections into my sacrococcygial (sp??) joint, my SI joint, and also L5-S1. after my L5-S1 injection my doctor finally narrowed it down to that and i had a discogram, similar pain experienced at L4-L5 and the exact pain though not in my tailbone area with L5-S1. i've tried therapy, tens unit, been on all sorts of pain meds. for daily pain that is about an 8 and a 10 when sitting, i've been taking oxycontin and vicodin now, though they both make it hard to go to work even though i've only been working part-time since i returned mid-may.

    after my discogram i went for another ct scan which revealed a tear at L5-S1. my doctor said that my options now are fusion (which he pretty much refuses to do since i'm so young and will end up with problems later in life from), trying to get into a disc replacement study going on or starting soon at the hospital i'm going to (and hope that i get the replacement and not fusion), or IDET. because of the chance of getting stuck with fusion if i go for the study, my doctor wants me to go for the idet.

    i recently went for a second opinion and the neurosurgeon wasn't very helpful. he didn't give much advice of what to do and said that he doesn't have much experience with IDET but that he didn't think it could hurt trying.

    from what i've read, it sounds like the idet is a fairly easy procedure but has a LONG PAINFUL recovery period. has anyone had any lasting negative results from it??? my mother has been reading about it on the internet and keeps saying how since they burn the nerve ending by the disc, i'll end up with horrible effects from it such as incontinence. she keeps coming up with all sorts of negative results that can happen. how risky is this procedure??? has anyone encountered serious problems???

    also, for anyone who has had the disc replacement, how has the recovery been?? i only saw a few postings regarding this and it sounds like a better recovery period than the IDET.

    any suggestions of what to do?? i really just want to get rid of some pain and to sit again!!!

    sorry i rambled on so long....thanks to anyone who actually read this entire thing![/QUOTE]

    Hi! I just had IDET on 1/25/08. I think you are making it out to be far worse than it is. The biggest problem with IDET is that it has not been put through rigorous studies, and the success rates aren't all that great (maybe even only 50%). But the RISKS are almost none. In every study that's been done there have been no complications. My recovery has been pretty easy. It is not a painful recovery; it is just restrictive. In other words, I'm not supposed to sit for more than 15 minutes at a time. The pain I have experienced so far is no worse than my previous pain. My doc warned me that most patients feel burning afterward, but I am taking Lyrica (and have been for 2 years) and so I've felt no burning pain, which is good. I would say go for it. It is the best treatment for annular tears. It is a pretty simple, outpatient procedure, which does not burn any bridges for future treatment. In other words, there is almost no reason not to try it. And if it doesn't work, all you've given up is a few months recovery time. My doc said the recovery curve goes down initially for about a week, then up slightly, then plateaus for about 5 weeks. Then, around the 6-week mark, people start feeling better. So I'm only 2 weeks out today. I took 1 week off of work & laid in bed almost 24/7. I have been back at work this week, working about 3/4 days, and then I go home & get directly in bed to lay down. I'm walking 20-40 minutes/day. Feel free to ask any other questions if you have them; this is all I can think of now. But I say go for it! And maybe neurosurgeons aren't the best ones to consult about it; my pain management doc (an anesthesiologist, officially) did mine.

    -Beth

    ***Editing: I'm a dork & just saw the initial post & nothing after it and responded - now I see the initial post is quite old & much has since happened. I will leave my response for others to read if it might help them***
    __________________
    Back pain since March 2005
    2 ESI's - Feb. 2006
    Discograms 11/16/06 & 7/10/07
    End. Discectomy - July 2007 (L4/5)
    3-level Foraminal Inj. - Jan. 2008 (L3/4, L4/5, L5/S1)
    IDET - 1/25/08 (L3/4)

    Last edited by lizzybrog80; 02-08-2008 at 09:06 PM. Reason: I'm a dork!!!

     
    Old 08-05-2011, 09:25 PM   #23
    amylynn8100
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    Re: IDET / disc replacement

    I'm 30 and just had an IDET 2 days ago, so far I'm sore and in some pain, it's a lil more intense than preop. I'm not as stiff as I was after the discogram. I'm hopeful this will help. But I'd rather have the IDET than a fusion.

     
    Old 08-08-2011, 09:01 AM   #24
    notreadyyet
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    Re: IDET / disc replacement

    Hi. I had IDET about 3 years ago, and it did not leave me with any of the scary problems you've been hearing about. Recovery wasn't too long either (I took off about a month) and got back to life pretty much in a few months (BTW, I'm a 55-year old male). The procedure was quite uncomfortable because I opted NOT to have anethesia other than the basic numbing injections because that would have increased the recovery time in the office (my bad). Uncomfortable but not unbearable, but in hindsight I should have taken the shot. Well, bottom line is that it really didn't help me that much. Years later and I'm still in quite a bit of pain and pondering fusion but as you know, that's a serious decision and I'm not there yet (almost, but not quite). I hope that helps.

     
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