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    Old 07-10-2003, 02:30 PM   #1
    mavrneen
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    Smile Who has experience with Prolotherapy?

    I am an EMT who fell last march (2002) I've had back pain since then with absolutely no diagnosis as to what was causing the pain. Just last month i got hooked up with a pain specialist who does prolotherapy-he diagnosed a laxity of the sacroiliac ligaments. Three weeks later, with one set of injections a week, and my back is almost completely better. I am a future doctor so of course i was surprised i had never heard of a procedure that could have such wonderful results. After lots of research I am finding tons of different back injuries that prolotherapy can help. Has anyone had any experiences with the procedure-good or bad-i'd like to hear about them since this is a whole new subject for me.

     
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    Old 07-11-2003, 07:08 PM   #2
    colleen b
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    I was just diagnosed with a bad si joint. I would love to hear more about you polotherapy experience. I was misdiagnosed with disc herniations for almost a year now. Colleen

     
    Old 07-17-2003, 12:09 AM   #3
    mavrneen
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    sorry, i haven't been to the boards in awhile...Prolotherapy is an injection of dextrose into the ligaments. LIgaments have little blood supply and therefore don't heal very well. The dextrose irritates the ligament enough that the body thinks it's injured and sends all it's healing cells to the area. Per studies on rabbits(ew, i know) the ligaments end up an average of 40% thicker and stronger. And 90% of patients end up with at least moderate pain relief. In reality, from what i've seen, if you get a decent doc who only does the procedure on people whose problems qualify(and an SI joint laxity does) then it's more like 75 % end up cured and the other 25% have most of their pain gone.
    How well your body is able to "fix" the ligaments all depends on how healthy you are to begin with, and how healthy your immune system is. Ie...they won't give you prolotherapy while you have a cold because your immune system is "busy" Sorry for using all the laymen's terms but i wasn't sure how much medical jargon you understood.
    I had the si joint dysfunction too, but it gave me pain throughout my whole back. Once we fixed that, i was golden [img]http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/redface.gif[/img]) I have had four injections in five weeks and my pain is completely gone. I would say i have 5% of the pain i have had for the past year. And i can tell that it's pain in specific areas because they are still healing. If you have any other questions feel free to ask. I tend to only check the boards every couple days so you may have to wait a bit for a reply, sorry.

     
    Old 07-17-2003, 04:30 AM   #4
    jdlfmc
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    Hi!! Thanks for such an informative post I found it to be very interesting as I don't think I have heard of that peticular procedure before!I'm sure I;m not a caniadate for this treatment but I wantes to ask since you were peaking of the immune system tears ago I started taking echinicia a supplement to boost the immune system when ever I feel myself starting to come down sick and have found it to be a great supplement do you think this would help with healing of the back in general for as the way I read your post which I may be wrong wouldn't be anything new that the immune syetem may have a lot to do with healing??I know you said you won't be on the boards often and I don't blame you we all look foward to the day we get our lives back so thanks for updating us on your recovery.
    Linda
    sorry meant to post this on your other thread hope you get this!!

    [This message has been edited by jdlfmc (edited 07-17-2003).]

     
    Old 07-17-2003, 09:34 AM   #5
    mavrneen
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    Linda,
    ecchinacia definitely aids the immune system. Vitamin C is also great for it. They're just starting to come out with new studies recommending doses up to 10Grams of vitamin c a day(that's 10-1000mg pills!!!) to prevent cancer. Apparently vitamin c is a great immune system aid in TONS of ways.
    What exactly is your problem with your back that you think prolotherapy probably wouldn't help? I am in the medical profession, and studying to get into medical school, so when i stumbled upon this procedure i looked up all the medical literature i could find on it. It turns out it has been around for 70 years!! Anyway, I found a ton of conditions that prolo(as it's called for short) can help, and I've got a 1,000 page medical text on it. So if you wanna tell me a bit about your problems i'll see if i can find something out for you!!

     
    Old 07-17-2003, 02:12 PM   #6
    jdlfmc
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    mavrneen,hi I will put my sig.at the end of this post I'm afraid it needs to be revised as it is way to lengthy and could stand a good trim!!I'haven't had any treatment other then meds no in way over 2yrs for a lot of reasons you will understand w/sig. I just had a 2hr MRI today iI gor the pictures but have to go pick up radioligst report tommorrow but I don't know if that will help I had to have a discogram to get the diagnosis before,so if you have time to read sig.let me know what you think,I really want off all these meds in the least invassive way possible before ihurt my back I wouldn't even take asprin and now I live from dose to dose of pain meds.Also I haven't been able to take xtra vitiamin c as it kills my stomach!!
    I am open to all suggestions I start back next week as to deciding what treatments or surgery I will have so please I'd like to hear whatever info and will appreciate it!!Thanks!!
    linda

     
    Old 07-17-2003, 03:57 PM   #7
    mavrneen
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    Linda, your sig didn't show up. If you could please try again, or copy and paste it to a post. I will check back later tonight before i go to bed ify ou get a chance to post tonight.

     
    Old 07-17-2003, 04:55 PM   #8
    jdlfmc
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    sorry I seem to always forget!!
    Linda

    ------------------
    6/13/99 Fell at work
    WC allowed claim:thoracic sprin/strain; lumbar sprain/strain;lumbosacral sprain/strain WC approved 22 chiro visits
    NO relief asked referrel to PM Dr.started PM 8/25/99 mri said to be normal slight bulge L4/5 all request for further testing denied.
    8/01/01 I paid for discogram from local orthepic surgeon after given 2 4mg. shots morphine discogram found to be normal
    WC approved 3 epidural inj.NO HELP
    10/03/01 started treatment Cl.Clinic on private ins.
    MRI:Cl.Clinic L4/5 disc bulge w/neuroforaminal impingement
    X-RAYS:Cl.Clinic L5/S1 spondylothesis
    3 more epidurals no help
    2/01 discogram Cleveland Clinic:L4/5 disc bulge contrast moved towards posterior asppect of that disc w/midline fissures in the medial annular fibers disruption
    L/5-S1 level also abnormal.
    Update;at that time I was prescibed a spine cath idet/denied WC denied privat ins.
    since have been living on pain meds prescribed by the approved WC PM Dr.
    vicodin 10/660 4xday
    neurontin 400mg.3xday
    soma 350mg.2xday
    oxycontin 40mg.2xday
    No further treatment then meds everthing denied by both ins.
    Pri.Ins found out going to Cl.Clinic because of Wc accident refused pay ment for any med. bills ended up in bankrupcy court.
    6/14/03 pain worsened and many other comlications.
    6/21/03 ended up going to Cl.Clinic ER was a bad nightmare,after being there for over 24 hrs. was released at my demand
    X-rays showed DDD and arthritis at 2 or 3 levels.;diagnosis upon release STRAIN/SPRAIN
    7/1/03 mediation to prepare for trial by jury 12/17/03
    7/8/03 WC hearing to discontinue all meds,medical treatment

     
    Old 08-13-2003, 07:12 PM   #9
    backattack
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    mavrneen,

    Did your prolotherapy relief "stick." I had six injections of .25% dextrose 3.5 weeks ago. I felt GREAT for two weeks but the pain has come back in force. My doc isn't a prolo specialist, however. Who did you see? What regimen? One week apart? How many injections? Low back pain? (My SI "popped" and the sacrum also hurts; it's been 14 months, alas). What solution did he/she use.

    Thanks!

     
    Old 10-26-2004, 12:43 PM   #10
    maremi
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    Re: Who has experience with Prolotherapy?

    Hi! I am a 35 year old woman who has been disabled for 3 years because of sacro illiac hyper mobility...it took 2 years to find out what it was and still some doctors don't believe in it because they can't SEE IT on x-rays or scans or mri.I have a 3 year old daughter and I was a phys ed teacher so it is very difficult to be completly disabled...my muscles are completly atrophied so I am desperate. In 2 weeks I will try prolotherapy. I am terrified of needles and pain but it's my last hope. Can anybody help me? What is prolotherapy like? Do I have a chance? Thanks.

     
    Old 10-26-2004, 08:05 PM   #11
    injured betty
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    Re: Who has experience with Prolotherapy?

    I had it done. If you plug Proltherapy into the health board search engine, you can find my experiences with it.

    They overtightened me. They also hit a nerve while doing it. I am back to square one. My ligaments are no longer hypermobile, but I now have nerve damage and one side is pulled too tight. I have to work on loosening it up, daily.

    There are a lot of doctors out there who are out to make a quick buck. Not that there are not honest doctors out there, but if you find a doctor who is only doing Prolo and only taking private patients and insurance cases, run.

    Prolo works differently on each person. I did it to avoid surgery. I did it one month apart each time. They did from my waist to my hips on each side and down to my tail bone. It hurt. I hurt from the time they did it until they did it again. You are not allowed to take an anti-inflammatory drugs while doing it. You are WAY inflammed. Inflammation means pain.

    It worked for me in that the ligaments healed, but they should have also had me in PT while doing it. They blew it. I am not sure which is worse, too tight or too loose.

    Make sure that you are set up with PT at the same time and that your PT know what you are doing. You might have to educate them as not many people know what this is.

    They will offer you a mild tranquilzer and Versad. If you don't like needles, take them up on it. Make sure that you check out the person who is doing the Prolo. Talk to patients that they have worked on. Don't take the doctor's testimonial for it. The common pep talk is to walk over to a door and show you what happens when the hinge is out of alignment. Or, the other one is to open and close a drawer and ask you what you would do if it is stuck. They promise to tighten up your hinges/ligaments.

    If you have to sign a waiver, refuse. The guy who wrote the book on this, has prompted his doctors/students, to have waivers. They are sticking needles into areas where there are a lot of nerves.

    I hope that this works out for you. I know how it is to be in a position where all you want is for it to be better.


     
    Old 10-29-2004, 10:25 AM   #12
    maremi
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    Re: Who has experience with Prolotherapy?

    To injured Betty...Boy you scared me...I know the specialist prolo I'm going to see has been doing only that for years and is really recommended. Your damaged nerve really worries me,I'm going to make sure it can't happen to me. But the ligament thing is good news. All I ned is tightening of the ligaments (well thats my disability part) and the prolo doctor sees patients every 6 weeks and not before so I guess he can't over do it. Im glad my doctor has been recommended by my aunt and my doctor. And I have been assured that it can't worsened me....Wish me luck!
    I hope you are better...
    Thanks!

     
    Old 10-29-2004, 11:35 AM   #13
    injured betty
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    Re: Who has experience with Prolotherapy?

    I have yet to read about a Prolo doc who has been documented as doing it for year*. Who is the doctor? I know that the practice has been around for years but only came into the limelight within the last few years. Every doctor that I checked out that did Prolo trained under the guy who wrote the book, Pain Pain, Go Away and Pain No More. Did your doc train under him? I know that this guy, the guy who wrote the book goes around to clinics, spends a day doing Prolo and while he is there, trains the local docs. This is not a specialty that has to be certified or has any special training.

    To be on the safe side, I would not take the anesethia that is offered and tell them to leave out the mild pain killer so that you know if he hits a nerve. My doctor told me that there were no nerves in that area. No nerves???? The back is filled with nerves.

    Also, DO NOT SIGN A WAIVER. It is standard practice with Prolo. Don't do it. I did. I am now waiting for my nerve to heal.

    Again, make sure that you are set up for PT three times a week while going through the process. You don't want to come out of it too tight, like I am. I have to walk five miles each day and do a bunch of stretches each day to try to stretch that side back out. My spine specialist and Osteopath both told me that I should have been warned about this outcome. Even though you might be loose on only one side, they will do both. I thought, great, I will at least be even. Nope, the side that was too loose is now too tight. And, my pelvis is permanantly tilted to that side until I get the ligament stretched out to where it should be. No one knows, going in, just how you will heal. I overhealed.

    I wish you luck, just go in ***informed***. This therapy is not recognized by any insurance company. It might be by WC, I am not sure. Doctors won' talk about it unless you press them. It is too experimental. What happened to me is like changing a tire and not knowing what you are doing, putting the lug nuts on one at time but not taking the time to work around tightening them a little at a time, not all at once and then your tire comes off or the lug nut breaks.

    Prolo is part of an integrated program that included PT, massage, and the ability to withstand great amounts of pain from the inflammation that it inflicts on your body.

    Ah, but it can worsen you, see above.

    As for the overtighening, it was not the number of times that he saw me or the amount of time inbetween, it was the fact that he didn't send me to PT. It was like cement, setting up. Although I did stretches at home on my own, he never told me that it was necessary. I did it because I knew that they needed to be done. I just didn't do all of the correct ones. Had I been in PT they would have guided me to the correct ones. And, since this is so new, no PT or ortho knew which ones for me to do. When I approached the Prolo doc about this, he said that this is a possible side effect, overtightening and it had to do with the healing process. He freaked out and stopped treating me. Some people heal at different rates than others.

    I would do WAY more research before proceeding if I were you.

     
    Old 10-30-2004, 07:15 PM   #14
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    Re: Who has experience with Prolotherapy?

    I have had Prolo, in February 04.
    My doctor is an MD, Acunpuncturist, Prolotherapist(20+ years)
    I received 5 treatments for a car accident that I was in 15 years ago.
    On the fifth treatment, while he was finishing up the left side of the t-spine, the MD poked my lung with the needle, I tasted the solution that is used for the prolo(dextrose or cod liver oil derivative)I hacked and coughed and started crying caused I thought I was dying. I was having difficulty breathing. The doctor said he was done. Of course he was. The nurse put a oxygen measurement clip on my finger, and the MD called the hospital and explained to me that he wanted me to go immediately to the hospital for a chest x-ray. I waited for about 10 minutes, until I calmed down enough to go there(about two blocks away). I was one percent under having to have a chest tube. I had to have chest x-rays 24 hours later. I was totally miserable, I had trouble sleeping, and had to sleep in a recliner(when I finally did get to sleep)for a total of 3 hours on and off.
    I was NEVER told of the possible side effects of this procedure either verbally nor written. I now try to let people know that this is a very distinct possibility of a collapsed lung, as is trigger pt injections.
    I also did not gain any relief from this therapy. I don't think it works for backs or necks from what I hear.

    Prolo helped C Everett Koop, back in the 1970's and actually has been around since the 1920's, I believe. The only reason its not practiced more is because no one can really patent it the procedure.
    My insurance company paid for it as well, Aetna.
    Hope this helps.

    I no longer chase snake oil treatments...
    sapphire

    Last edited by sapphire_sea; 10-30-2004 at 07:18 PM.

     
    Old 11-04-2004, 10:26 AM   #15
    maremi
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    Re: Who has experience with Prolotherapy?

    To injured Betty,
    The prolo doctor I am going to see has been doing this for 24 years and no, I don't have to sign anything. He has never caused any damage because he is so knowledgeable. I am in Canada, and there are only 2 in the province that practice it. I found out yesterday when I called the secretary. He does have a series of exercises that you HAVE to do each day after the prolo. Anyway I do see a PT( I THINK, Does that mean physiotherapist?) so I am relieved to find that out.
    If you want more info just let me know. Bye!

     
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